When I entered this under the title 9/11, no one responded.

Hopefully, someone will read it this time...It is worth reading.

It has been a year since the events of 9/11 impacted our lives. What a year it has been! The images and realities of what occurred during those morning hours of September 11 have changed us forever. We have gone through this past year facing new fears and great uncertainties. Things that once were considered unimaginable and unthinkable are now a part of our everyday lives. Our comfort and security have been stretched and tested, and our values have been shaken to their foundations.

The Bible tells us that "the clouds are the dust of His feet" (Nahum 1:3 KJV). In the midst of the clouds of smoke, doubt, fear, and uncertainty, God has been moving and working out His plan. Because God is a redeemer, I believe that He reveals His mercy and goodness in the times of our greatest need. One redemptive element that has emerged this past year has been the way we have sharpened our focus on what is important, and re-evaluated our priorities on what is of lasting value.

As we think and wonder what is ahead for us as a nation and as individuals, I would like to share ten things that are certain and unshakable, and that you can build your life upon.

#1. God has a purpose for your life. It is no accident that you are alive today. You are here by God's choosing. You were born at this time in History to fulfill His purpose for this generation. He has given you all the light you need to know His will, and He has given you all the grace you need to do His will. If you are committed to His will, there is nothing that can keep you from it.

#2. God is in charge. God has not retreated somewhere in the universe and gone into hiding. He is today where He has always been-on His throne. There is no king or ruler that has more authority than God; there is no political figure that has more influence than God; there is no nation that has more control than God. No one can outthink Him or outsmart Him. He is God Almighty. If you have placed your life in His hands, He is in charge of your life and all you do.

#3. God is sovereign. Nothing can stop His plan or frustrate His purposes. God is not worried about what will happen or what He will be able to do. Nothing takes Him by surprise. He sees the future and He is already there. He knows where He is leading your life and He knows how to get you there. If you follow Him, you will find that He makes no mistakes.

#4. God's Word is dependable. All Scripture is God's written Word. It is 100% reliable because God is 100% infallible. The Scriptures have endured the test of time-men have tried to destroy them but they still remain; men have tried to dispute them but they have had the final say in every argument; men have tried to refute them but they stand over each man's grave as a living testimony to all that is true, righteous, and eternal. If you obey His Word you will never have regrets.

#5. You belong to a Kingdom that cannot be shaken. Throughout history kings have been overthrown, leaders have fallen from power, kingdoms have been conquered, armies have been defeated, riches have been depleted, and fortresses have toppled over. It is only in the Kingdom of God that anyone can find true rest and security. No rebellion can break down its gates, no weapon can penetrate its borders, and no warrior can come against its King. The way of the Kingdom is where your feet can walk; the truth of the Kingdom is what your faith can embrace; the love of the Kingdom is what your heart can give away.

#6. You are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. When Jesus came, He came and shed His blood to save you, cleanse you, forgive you, and deliver you from the power of the devil. His blood has bought you, and the enemy has no claim upon your life. You are His and His alone. He is your Redeemer, and He has taken full responsibility for your life since the day you gave your heart to Him. Because of His blood, your future is secure, your inheritance is guaranteed, and your destiny is certain.

#7. God has given you all that you need to serve Him. The grace of God covers you, the presence of God is in you, the angels of God are with you, the arms of God are around you, the gifts of God are for you, and the power of God is upon you. He has not abandoned you or left in this world as an orphan, alone and forsaken. God is for you, the Holy Spirit is in you, Jesus is with you, and all the heavenly hosts are on your side.

#8. Jesus Christ is coming back. The outcome of all things has already been determined. Jesus is the winner. He is without rival in the universe. No evil, no outlaw, no terrorist or anarchist will be standing in the end. Every enemy of God will be defeated, every false prophet will be exposed, every evil spirit will be chained, and every accusing tongue will be silenced. The final chapter in the Book of Life has already been written, and there will be no need for rewrites or revisions. All that remains is for its writings to be fulfilled. One day soon, you will forever be with the Lord.

#9. God loves you and will not fail you. You are God's child and He is your Father. He loves and cares for you more than you will ever know. All that He is, He is for you. The depth of His love for you cannot be measured, and its height cannot be scaled. He wants you to trust Him completely because He will not fail you. When you go through trials He will keep you from defeat, and when you face temptations He will keep you from shame. When the enemy comes in like a flood, He will raise up a standard against Him.

#10. Jesus Christ will never let you go. He is with you always. No one can pluck you out of His hand, so you need not fear any evil. He is daily praying for you, and His prayers are being answered. He is preparing a place for you in His Father's house, and He will come for you. If you ever question His love for you, just look at His hands. Jesus will never ask you to do something without His grace. In the dark times He will be your light. In troubled times He will be your security. In uncertain times He will be your guidance. In fearful times He will be your peace. You will never face a day without Him; you will never take a step without His presence walking beside you; you will never face a need without His supply; you will never face a circumstance that He can't bring you through.

God Will Not Fail You

When you walk through a dark valley, No fear shall grip your soul. When you're climbing a steep mountain, His hand will not let go.

When you're waiting for an answer To a prayer in Jesus' name, It will soon be granted to you; You won't be brought to shame

There's not a promise He's ever broken. Nothing's failed that He has said. He will not forsake you; Like the sparrow you'll be fed. God will not fail you; He will not leave you alone. God will not fail you; He does not forsake His own.

When in a time of suffering You're seeking for His touch, His presence will not turn away; He loves you much too much.

When the pain of a great trial Seems to tear your heart in two, His arms reach out with mercy To sustain and comfort you.

There's not a promise He's ever broken. Nothing's failed that He has said. He will not forsake you; Like the sparrow you'll be fed. God will not fail you; He will not leave you alone. God will not fail you; He does not forsake His own.

-- Roy Lessin MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), September 05, 2002

Answers

I read it, MaryLu, and at first was going to respond but then decided not to. You'll understand why I at first declined, I think, when I speak my mind here...

"The images and realities of what occurred during those morning hours of September 11 have changed us forever."

I don't believe this... I think it belongs to the category of what people say but what they don't live out. I see no changes in any particular person, but I'll tell you what I do see, which is concrete: a further expansion of the cost and power of big government.

"Things that once were considered unimaginable and unthinkable are now a part of our everyday lives."

I never considered things such as what happened on 911 to be unimaginable or unthinkable. In fact, I have expected them. I expect more and worse.

"Our comfort and security have been stretched and tested, and our values have been shaken to their foundations."

If this is what it means to be stretched and tested and shaken, we're never going to make it as a nation.

"We have gone through this past year facing new fears and great uncertainties."

Actually, I have experienced less of both. Clarity of mind is on the upswing, and many around me have indicated the same.

As far as the 10 reasons, by and large they are emotionally based platitudes of a uniquely Protestant nature. I'm tired of Protestants and they offer me no comfort.

Comfort is found in the Catholic Faith.

This is just the beginning of what's to come, make no mistake. As horrible a scene as was 911, it will not be at all comparable with what is to come and soon.

I understand that what I say is irritating, and don't want you to take it personally... but it does represent my honest opinions. Nor do I intend to minimize the sufferings of those immediately impacted by 911, but I think that goes without saying.

Perhaps in the mean time we should ask why the IMF, 51% controlled by the US Treasury, is causing people to go three days without food in Argentina right now because of their totalitarian intervention.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 05, 2002.

Hi Mary Lu,

I would like to respond, but it is late here so I will do it tomorrow.

God Bless America!

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 05, 2002.

Roy Lessin has a very serious problem. His writings had the Protestant look and feel, but to be sure, I went and checked and yes he is a Protestant.

So what difference does this make, one might ask. Well, it makes a big difference if you are to believe what the Church teaches. Because it is not a matter of 'God will not fail Roy' but will 'Roy fail God'.

Because here is what the Popes and Saints say:

"Jesus and the Church are indissoluble, inseparable. Christ and the Church are the same thing. It is not possible to say 'I accept Jesus, but I do not accept the Church'". --Pope John Paul I

"...all those who leave the Church for heresy, abondon the name of Christ. Those who call these men 'Christians' are in grievous error, since they neither understand the Scripture at all nor the faith which it contains." --St. Athanasius

(I have long since abondoned calling Protestants 'Christians', because, well, they aren't. They are not following Christ. If they were, they would be in the Catholic Church.)

"Outside this Body, the Holy Ghost does not give life to anyone. Those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Ghost. The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if a man be separated from the Body of Christ he is not one of His members nor is he fed by His Spirit." --Pope Paul VI

These are strong statements, and there's a ton more just like it, all saying the same thing.

So why am I making a big deal of this? Well, if we are to take the Church seriously, then all those 10 points merit Roy Lessin nothing unless he enters into communion with Christ's Church. So in a way, it could certainly appear that 'God will fail him', but would actually be more the case that he failed God.

Tough concept, to think that Roy's 10 points may actually not apply to him. That's a terrible thought.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 05, 2002.

Emerald, as Catholics, we should hold firm to all of our Holy See's encyclicals; you have Dominus Iesus down pat, it seems, but you should also take a refresher read of Ut Unum Sint. Let's not fall into the trap of selectively embracing doctrines to arm us with sharp and bitter words against good people.

God bless,

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), September 05, 2002.

I know, Skoobouy... you are correct. Guess sometimes its just the fact that the Age of Confusion gets under my skin, know what I mean? This is tough to live out.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 05, 2002.

My apologies in advance, MaryLu.

I guess what really bothers me about this whole America thing is bumper sticker patriotism. While no one else cared, I was out there trying to defend what the founding fathers set up. Yeah, ChrisB if you are there, I know I'm a closet monarchist, and the Constitution is not divine revelation, but it still stood for a while against those who wish to take all our stuff and our freedom, and there is some kind of objective good there. Yeah, I know the American Revolution is in some way remotely connected to a detachment from true authority while that true authority was being abused.

But now the neo-conservatives, of ALL PEOPLE, are laying waste to the Constitution in the name of security. I don't mean you, MaryLu, or Roy Levin, but just people, people who don't even understand our Republic. People that go around calling it a democracy. And I guess that all it is anymore anyways. And then I figure, well, hey what can one expect when the Constitution lacks clear definition of 'pursuit of happiness'?

So you get abortions... if I'm not mistaken, as many each week as died in the world trade center. A fortiori, we can say without a shadow of a doubt that each one of those infants was innocent. We get misty-eyed about the trade center and abort another bunch this week in the name of freedom.

I get frustrated with the general lack of understanding of what it means to be free. I see bumper sticker flag waving patriots who know nothing of their origins, nothing of their own Republic's nature. Not even enough to know of it's flaws, which ought to be known as well.

God Bless America, sure. We need it because really, we are not a nation of God but a nation of pagans, statistically.

Well, God Bless it anyways, I guess.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

Hello, Emerald.

I agree with your statement that Roy Lessin's writings contain some mistakes (even some beyond those you mentioned), and I would not recommend that Lessin's thoughts be copied here unedited. However, did you make some mistakes of your own?

It appears that you regard Protestants and Protestantism differently from what the Catholic Church teaches. There is just no way that any pope of your lifetime would agree with your statement: "I have long since abondoned calling Protestants 'Christians', because, well, they aren't." If you would look at the Vatican-II and post-Vatican-II documents, you would see that Protestants are warmly regarded as fellow Christians. But don't ever think that I am an "indifferentist." I want everyone to be Catholic just as much as you do, because I believe that to be God's will.

You quoted St. Athanasius (around 400 A.D.): "...all those who leave the Church for heresy, abondon the name of Christ. Those who call these men 'Christians' are in grievous error, since they neither understand the Scripture at all nor the faith which it contains."
I think that it was not apropos to quote this, since the great majority of Protestants do not "leave the Church for heresy." Rather, they are "cradle Protestants," the great majority of whom are not yet aware that they believe wrongly in some ways and that God wants them to be Catholics.

You quoted Pope Paul VI as having stated: "Outside this Body, the Holy Ghost does not give life to anyone. Those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Ghost."
Please provide the title (Latin, if possible) of the papal document in which this passage allegedly appears. I would have to see it to believe it. I don't believe that this is the kind of thing Pope Paul VI would have written -- unless the context somehow shows the words to be valid. Did you find this at a schismatic traditionalist (i.e., untrustworthy) site?

Emerald, you wrote: "So you get abortions... if I'm not mistaken, as many each week as died in the World Trade Center."
Actually, in the U.S. alone, more babies are murdered daily than died in the World Trade Center massacre. Four thousand are killed just by "surgical" abortion, with an unknown additional number killed by chemicals [RU-486 and abortifacient "contraceptives" (oral/implanted/injected)].

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 06, 2002.

No more messages from Protestants on here, sorry.

I was focusing on the message about God, not the author and I happen to like the message. I apologize if I offended anyone, certainly did not mean to.

Personally, I think God loves the Protestants, Jews, and any other religion the same way as he loves the Catholics. He created each and every one.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), September 06, 2002.

John, I got that Pope VI quote out of a book that was lent to me that contained the statements of Popes and Saints throughout the ages. I have to run to work soon and can't find it at present, but I'll get you the title eventually.

Your point about cradle protestants is well taken; I've thought of this myself... but one can hold heresy without being a heretic, I would presume, if that heresy is however remotely carried to them long after the original heretic is dead. Heresy isn't a person.

"There is just no way that any pope of your lifetime would agree with your statement: "I have long since abondoned calling Protestants 'Christians'""

Well, I think I can make a case supporting it, but it will have to wait til I get home again.

In the mean time, here's the confusion for me... who among us, myself most particularly, would not want to give our Protestant brothers credit for those truths which they hold in common with us? Who wants categorically waste their good intentions, or relegate their good works to a waste dumpster? I don't want to be that way any more than anyone else. I would rather take comfort in God as an all good and loving, merciful God, as is the Truth, as would anyone else.

Yet at the same time, we have 2000 years of authority saying there is no salvation outside the Church, right up to and including our present Vicar. JPII has said it unambiguously himself.

When people are presented with this, they automatically tend to try to find loopholes for non Catholics to squeeze through. 'Well, maybe they were saved in virtue of the things the held in common with the Church' or 'they were really, really good people and loved Jesus'. Hey, I've done this myself. I want to see all my good Protestant friends end up in the right place too. Who wouldn't?

But then there's that glaring fact: we hold the keys. Do we or do we not? I certainly understand reaching out to our Protestant brethren, I certainly understand the desire to re-instate unity, but we are at a great disadvantage because we can't compromise. We know this going in to any dialogue. We can't give an inch.

But quietly, for a long time now, we have unwittingly 'given an inch' because individual priests and Catholics have left unsaid the truth that there is no salvation outside the Church, to the point where it isn't even common knowledge anymore but a point of dissent.

In general, I'm struggling with this whole notion of reaching out we have been trying to accomplish lately. If I have to assent to it, I will, but it sure doesn't seem to be working real well; in fact, seems we are losing more people to the ambiguity, and young people are being born into this ambiguity in the Church. I could have easily been a cradle ambiguitymeister.

To MaryLu, I'm not offended. I don't support a ban on posting material from Protestants. But I think I nailed something on the head when you said this:

"Personally, I think God loves the Protestants, Jews, and any other religion the same way as he loves the Catholics. He created each and every one."

He loves the PEOPLE the same, not the religions. I believe this is what you meant to say, but at any rate, many people do think all religions are equal, and this is one of the great errors of our time. It is the source a lot of the confusion of our times, and what fatigues the hearts and minds of good Catholics whether they realize or not. We have GOT to somehow get ourselves, and everyone else, back to the understanding that this is God's Church, which He set up as the means of salvation for mankind.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

Hi Mary Lu,

I was going to respond to your post today, but after reading Emeralds posts......well, let's just say I am going to bite my tongue and not say anything, except that I liked the message as well.

On second thought......just one thing. With every step I take forward in my spiritual journey.....I read something like this from Emerald and want to take 20 steps back.

God bless you Mary Lu,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 06, 2002.

Kathy,

I just thought of it, but do you read about the lives of the Saints? I have been reading one or two lives per night, and I find that this is an excellent way of learning the history of the Church. Not only do you become inspired by the persons piety and example, but the fact that a lot of the Saints lived between this period that seems to be missing (60's and 300's)is proof of the Catholic Churches existence during this very same time. It might not have been officially called the Catholic Church (it began to be referred to as Catholic because of it's universality), but just read about their lives and it is as plain as ever that they were indeed "Catholic". The name of Christ’s Church might not have been defined at first, but the Traditions and Teachings have NEVER Changed. This is made most apparent through the exemplary lives of the early Saints.

Hope this helps.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 06, 2002.

Hi All,

I am not very good at debating issues. I believe when debating one should be knowledgeable and debate the 'facts.' I am not as knowledgeable as some of you when it comes to the facts about our religion or any religion for that matter.

Therefore, my response would be based on emotion which is not what debates should be about.

I have a strong faith, a strong Catholic faith, believe in all of its teachings and follow those teachings the best I can. My faith is simple and uncomplicated.

I just have a real hard time accepting the fact that only Catholics are going to heaven and all of these other good, decent, people who believe in Jesus Christ and follow His commandments are not going to heaven..

I just cannot imagine Jesus turning any of them away.

So many of you have more information than I do, so, like I said...no debate from me. I cannot judge anyone for their religious beliefs. I feel that is God's job not mine. I like to share my faith with others, plant the seed and leave the growth up to God.

My Catholic faith is very strong and I am not at all influenced by my non-Catholic friends. I do enjoy learning about other religions just like I enjoy learning about other cultures and yet I am not going to leave my country to live in another place that I find interesting.

My love and His peace MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), September 06, 2002.

Thanks for the thread Marylu. Have a great weekend.

God bless you

David S

-- David (David@excite.com), September 06, 2002.

MaryLu,

It sounds like you believe exactly what the Catholic Church teaches: That is, you can be saved if you are of another religion (in name). But being in another religion (by name) doesn't mean that your actions are of another religion (by name).

For example: If there is someone who accpets all of Christ's teachings (like baptism, the Real Presence, etc.) and is very much a Catholic (or belonging to the Body of Christ), yet calls himslef (or herself) a Protestant (becuase they don't know that the Catholic Church teaches is what they actually are unintentionally doing) for sure this person will be saved. Why? Because, without knowing, this person has embraced Christ FULLY and therefore although unintentional has entered into the Body of Christ.

It is only those who don't fully embrace Christ that are rejected. That is either Protestants who refuse to believe that Christ is really present in the Eucarist, (and that we must eat His Body), Mary is our mother, baptism, But likewise Cathlics who do not abide by their faith.

It seems to me that naming religions gets people confused sometimes. Because to be called a Catholic doesn't mean that you're saved. Nor does being called a Buhdist (sp) necessarily mean you are damned. It all depends on what you practice, and above all your relationship with Christ. Because if you have a GOOD relationship with Christ - you will necessarily ACT "CATHOLIC". But even if you are called a Catholic, but you have a BAD relationship with Christ, you just might be ACTING like a "Buhdist".

Maybe this helps MaryLu!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 06, 2002.

You're right MaryLu. I think sometimes that we are too judgmental of our Protestant (or non-Catholic) friends, who really don't know better. By being called Catholic, we just feel special. I'm not talking about the true feeling, but the one some get just by the name.

That is why I like our brother, Laurent. Although he "claims" to be a non-believer, he is very much (unintentionally) Catholic.

I hope I don't stop you from being the way you are, Laurent - if your reading. What you stand for (as far as abortion, etc.) is pretty good. Thanks.

However, this is why we as Catholics must rally to bring our brothers and sisters to know God (not necessarily to become Catholics). Becaue in knowing God they will de facto become Catholic. By expresing our desires for them to become "Catholic" it sometimes scares them away, because they have a bad impression associated with just the name, Catholic.

If we can bring the entire world to know Jesus Christ, and His Holy Teachings withouth "converting" them by name. Then once they've come to believe and to unintentionally act Catholic, it will be just so simple to say "You know the way you're acting. This is what the Catholic Church teaches."

The Church teaches that one must be Catholic to be saved. But BEING Catholic, and being CALLED something else, are two different things.

Does this make sense to anyone?

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 06, 2002.

"With every step I take forward in my spiritual journey.....I read something like this from Emerald and want to take 20 steps back."

What, exactly, is it that I am guilty of, Kathy?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

"I just have a real hard time accepting the fact that only Catholics are going to heaven and all of these other good, decent, people who believe in Jesus Christ and follow His commandments are not going to heaven.."

I understand that, MaryLu. I have a hard time with this too. That's why I would like to see it addressed.

Kathy, would it be too much to ask to have you (and MaryLu) address me personally in your posts? I feel like I'm sitting in the seat between two people talking to each other in a theatre. Neither one of you addressed me directly. It kind of feels wierd. Do I need a breath mint here or what?

At any rate, Kathy, it may be the way I say things, but I wonder what it is about what I said that makes you want to take 20 steps back.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

Hi Jake,

When someone expresses their desire for me to become Catholic.....I am not scared, nor do I run. I know it is the desire for John, Chris, Fred, Gail and others for me to announce that I have converted to Cathlocism. I know that it would ring music to their ears. Time and time again they have all been so helpful to me. They encourage me by answering my questions and in a sense they are my apostles.

John and Chris, to me, are so full of knowledge about Cathlocism, that I welcome them as my teachers.

It is when I read posts like the one Emerald left, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. All it does is make me say to myself....I don't ever want to be like that. I don't want to convert to cathlocism just to feel like I am above everyone else who isn't. And that is the message I got from Emerald. It may not be what he intended, but for me that is the way it came across.

If I die tomorrow without ever having converted to cathlocism, I know in my heart without a doubt, I am going to heaven.

For me Jake, it isn't about the labels.....Catholic, Protestant, or whatever....it's about getting closer to Jesus. So in my spiritual journey.....I want to be as close to Him as I can possibly get. I have a new found love, that I never knew about until this site.....praying before the Blessed Sacrament. My Catholic friends don't even do this. It is a feeling like no other....I can't explain it, but I am sure I don't have to to you. I can go to the local church at any reasonable hour and the priest at the rectory will open the doors for me.

Jake, I love your enthusiasm. It is encouraging and inspiring. I think the forum is blessed to have you here.

Emerald, I am not saying your guilty of anything, you are entitled to your own opinions and your own way of expressing them. And in my opinion your post screams predjudice (sp)?. You don't have to apologize for it, but for me who has one foot in the door, only makes me want to pull it out quicker than I got it there.

Emerald, I want to tell you what my best freind said to me right after 9/11. We were going to the vigil at the town hall, there is a lady walking ahead of us all decked out in red, white and blue. Sure it was a bit overkill, but it was in the spirit of patriotism. My friend, my best friend, catholic btw, said to me "She must be from your church". Without thinking twice, because of the insult I felt, I reacted by saying, "Well, she must be, because we wouldn't turn our noses up at her at our church, the way you would in yours".

Your comments Emerald reminded me of that day.

I don't ever want to be like that.

God bless you Jake and Emerald,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 06, 2002.

Emerald,

We must have posted at the same time. I addressed my post to Jake but include you in it. Should be right above your last post.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 06, 2002.

Let's be honest... Jake rarely crosses anyone with tough questions, and that's why you find him encouraging and likeable. I find him likeable too. You are making an erroneous determination of my character based on what I had the guts (or the foolishness) to put out for discussion. That's too easy too.

You have to give me credit for the guts to put it out there like I think it is. It's easy to look good if you want... just measure your words carefully and everybody will like you. Don't say anything to tick anyone off. That wasn't pointed at you, Jake, just keep doing what you do. Your are a fine man.

This thing about prejudice is a straw man. I'm honest and ask/answer exactly what I think. People are going to take issue with me from time to time as a result.

I think the world of Chris and John, but I think even they would admit they have posted things before that heated up to a temperature far higher than what I posted here... why am I so different?

Kathy, I have lived my entire life around Protestants. I got grilled for 4 years in an all Protestant High School. I have had old clients follow me around telling me I'm going to Hell for being Catholic for up to 12 years... these are friends of mine, btw, and they are welcome to continue following me around.

I have lived out the exact attitudes that you and MaryLu have expressed that one act like towards Protestant brethren, and the one Jake displays in his posts. I can honestly say I've lived guiltlessly in this regard, or 'nonprejudiced' if you prefer.

But now I want to know what the truth is. I'm dead serious about this, I would like a better answer to the question of 'no salvation outside the Church', and I am not going to rest until I get it. If I can't get the answer to this and a several other questions I have, then I will get them elsewhere, but I will get them. Maybe I shouldn't ask them here. All I want to know anymore is the Truth, and to not be confused.

Am I sometimes combative? Yes. My way of expressing my thoughts does not always lend itself well to the internet. For this I apologize.

So many times in so many posts I have made it SO VERY clear to people, that when I was about to say something they might not like, that I wished them not to take it personally, or wrongly. I've only lashed out in a big way twice, once to ChrisB and once to +@+.+. That's not much compared to some.

Honest to God, please understand that I am in the pursuit of Truth. My occasional combativeness is part of my God-given personality, or a defect therein... at least give me the credit for honesty about what I am all about. I've made enough posts here now that I think that would be fair.

My closest friends will all laugh and tell you that I am an a-- (pardon me), but they love me anyway and would be the first to tell you that my heart is true. My wife would back me up that I am not what you think I might be, Kathy. She would also be the first to tell you how good I am at monkey-wrenching a conversation. Behind my occasion distasteful posts is a mind looking to generate what is needed to answer serious questions.

God Bless America, God Bless the Protestants as He does indeed love us and want us all.

Now could someone please address my question? I'm not sure anyone will be able to answer to my satisfaction. Maybe nobody cares; I can hang with that. Maybe another thread, or an old thread. Extra Ecclesium Nolus Salus, what's up with it...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

Emerald,

I have no ill feelings toward you personally.....as I said, you have the freedom to speak your opinions in the words of your choice.

Basically, the message I was trying to get across is that if Catholics really want to convert all non-catholics to cathlocism.....they might want to drop the protestant insults. I personally find it a turn off. In all my life, and I am being one hundred percent truthful here, I have never heard a minister or any other protestant that I have come in contact with bash catholics. Since coming to this forum.....I have seen some uncalled for anti- catholic bashing, but never in my personal day to day surroundings.

Now, I am surrounded by Catholics on a daily basis, because the majority of the town I live in is Catholic. My friends, everyone of them are Catholic. And I can tell you, they don't have anything nice to say about protestants.

Mary Lu mentioned on another thread the priest at Mass speaking in a negative tone about protestants, why? Meanwhile, the Pastor at my church has included the Catholic Church and the laity in his sermon. He asked that we pray for their healing (scandal). Did he have to do that, no. Was it a nice jester, I think so.

I look at my catholic brothers and sisters as my friends, even though I have oftened been ridiculed for being protestant. You might wonder why I keep them around. Well, we all have faults. And as ignorant as they might be with religions, including their own, I love them and they are truly wonderful people.....outside of their ignorance.

As for Jake, yes, he may voice how he feels differently from you. And there is nothing wrong with that. But for someone like me, who has been considering converting.....Jakes tone will encourage me to get there. Yours will just make me want to turn away.

Emerald, don't forget, this is my opinion, and how I feel. Whats good for me doesn't make it good for everyone...and vise versa.

Overall Emerald, I don't dislike you, in fact I've enjoyed reading your posts. I just didn't like the way you went about your post here. And I thought I should let that be known.

God Bless you Emerald.

P.S. As for your question...try looking it up in the search engine if you can't find your answers here....I am still learning and cannot answer your question.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 06, 2002.

Thanks, Kathy. I really appreciate your answer. Honest to God I do.

I knew what I was in for when I first hit the submit button. What is done is done.

Let me tell you where the impetus of my post originated from. I have friends trying to drive my face through a windshield over this 'no salvation outside the Church'.

Quite frankly, it is starting to get me ticked... not the friends, the uncertainty, the ambiguity.

Why? I have two misscarried babies somewhere right now that never got baptised. It would be nice to know what the truth is about my kids. I've never seen them but they are mine, and they exist, and they are real somewhere right now. Maybe I shouldn't be thinking about such things, as I know God is all good and merciful, all though I have taken issue with those concepts in my past, to my surprise... but that's over. Knock on wood.

And my friends too. And my family. I hate this question, I really do, because like you, I want all the experience The Good.

I can't stop my brain, it just keeps on ticking. Dangit.

Also, about America... please pardon my lack of Patriotism. It stems from not knowing where to stand. I'm being honest, I don't know what is the proper disposition to take, and I have always had this innate rebellion to the crowd inside me. This combination leaves me homeless for the time being.

Luv ya Kathy, and MaryLu.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

"Why? I have two misscarried babies somewhere right now that never got baptised. It would be nice to know what the truth is about my kids. I've never seen them but they are mine, and they exist, and they are real somewhere right now", Emerald wrote.

Emerald, may I jump in for a minute. It's late, and I have no resources in hand, but from my heart, and the 'top of my head', there is much good stuff written about dealing with our unbaptized babies lost through abortion, miscarriages and stillborn. Of course each case is different, and with abortion certain repentance for grave sin needs to be done. But in all cases, we can do certain 'work', that can release us from unholy bonds and guilt that can plague us if we don't deal with it.

We can, very prayerfully of course, invite the Lord into the situation, give our babies names, this is very important that we give them an identity. And then spiritually baptize them, and quite literally "give them back to God". This is very important, much study has been done on this, and even secular scientists have seen physical healing take place in people who've forgiven themselves, repented before God, and reconciled with their unborn children, naming and baptizing them. This takes alot of faith, but this is the awesome wonder of God, allowing us to be partakers in His redemptive act on Calvary.

It's also part of the command for us to pray for the dead. So much healing can occur in our hearts when we purpose to take these things to God, and LEAVE them with Him. He is faithful. Fr. Robert De Grandes writes on this in his book "Generational Healing", so does fr. John Hampsch in "Healing Your family Tree". Peace, Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), September 07, 2002.

No problem; jump in.

Thanks Theresa... it's late and I'm tired too, but one of the things I've been told recently was that naming your lost babies was not 'licit' so to speak. Fact is, that is exactly what I did 10 years ago... we named them. (just so you are sure, they weren't aborted and they were mine and my wife's).

I did that on my own, at the time; no one suggested it to me that I can recall and I can't remember what made me think of doing it. Maybe it was my wife's idea. I can't remember.

I cannot tell you how very increasingly irritated I am at the fact that there is so much variance and confusion in the Church whether real or perceived on my part. I've got plenty of holy people around me, and yet Holy Person "A" and Holy Person "B" can't seem to agree on the proper interpretation of Important Doctrine "C". I see a lot on this forum I find to be questionable doctrinally speaking, though I am absolutely sure that the people who say these things are very good and even some very holy people.

I hold the Pope to be the valid Vicar of Christ. I have no problem with the idea that the Novus Ordo Mass fulfills my Sunday obligation. I hold that Vatican II is legit, although its purpose and intent are beyond me, I must admit. I am not Sedevacantist, or schismatic-tending in any way.

Some of the authors of these good Catholic books people mention from time to time, I know a few of these authors personally, and have really good Catholic support around me, and I take advantage of it and STILL I find the confusion unsettling and am left without satisfactory answers.

One person tells me my babies are with God, the other person tells me that this notion is not necessarily consistent with the Deposit of the Faith.

So when MaryLu says on another thread "One day there will be lots more changes besides the building itself..not yet, but they are coming." ...in reference to the new cathedral up there in LA, naturally I think now what is this, more nuvo stuff? More ambiguities? Honest to God what else needs to 'change' now?

Actually, I believe nothing has changed. I want to be clear about what it is doctrinally that has not changed.

I think much of your son, Theresa. I used to be like that, but now I'm on some different road. After a while I've been battle hardened into saying things or asking things whether the audience likes it or not, in an effort to determine reality.

I agree with Kathy that people need different people to talk to at different times in their life; I'm not the one to talk to right now most likely. I'm not really finding what I'm looking for as yet; don't know if going to find it in this forum. I do know I picked the wrong thread.

Hope noone construes this to be lending doubt to Kathy on the Faith, or anyone else for that matter. I don't doubt my Faith at all... that's not the issue here; I want to understand it better. I do believe, notwithstanding the 'mystery' aspect of it, that it can be understood better. But this is the age of confusion, and I live in the land of confusion. I believe we are truly living out the vision of Pope Leo XIII. I started a thread on this recently and got zero response on it. This age no doubt has the devil's signature all over it, to promote confusion and put good people at enmity with each other.

Tommorrow I'll read the other threads that @ pulled up and see if it helps any.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 07, 2002.

Emerald,

I understand where you are coming from. I think in a nutshell, your confusion and frustration comes from the fact that you are catholic and do not have a full understanding of your own religion. My confusion and uncertainty is that there is so much to figure out about cathlocism, but I am not catholic.....yet. Therefore my frustration doesn't have anything to do with the Catholic Church, but with people who think we are bottom of the barrel, not true christians, or can never be saved and so forth. I don't think I will ever believe that. So if I were to convert to cathlocism.....I might have a problem with calling myself a Catholic since I don't believe that only Catholics can be saved.

There is so much about both religions that I do believe in.....what does that make me? I would feel like a bi-racial person who doesn't know whether to call himself black or white.

One more thing I want you to know Emerald.....I said your post sounded predjudiced, I did not mean for you to interpret that I was judging you to be. If that is how you took it, then I apologise for that.

Good luck in your search for concrete answers, I am sure you will find them.

God bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 07, 2002.

Hey Mary Lu,

I just want to say that I think you are an amazing person with such a warm heart.

May the Lord be as kind to you as you are to everyone else,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 07, 2002.

Hi, folks.

I just read most of the 09/06 posts and all of the 09/07 posts on this thread, and I came away feeling some sadness, but also some hope.

The reasons for the sadness were (1) seeing the problem that arose for Emerald and Kathy and (2) seeing the more general uneasiness about various subjects that Emerald is experiencing as he seems to have trouble finding answers. [Off hand, I'd daresay that if the answers aren't here in the forum somewhere, in current or old threads, they may be impossible to find!]

The reason for my hope is this ... This was my final thread to read today, after having read all the new posts contributed on 09/06 and 09/07 on all other threads. [Phew! A lot to read!] This means that, before I got to this thread, I had noticed that a certain kind soul [gee, I wonder who?] had "topped" a bunch of old threads that touched on at least two topics of concern to Kathy and/or Emerald (e.g., on the souls of unbaptized and deceased children ... and on Church teaching about salvation of non-Catholics).

Emerald and Kathy, I hope that those other threads will be helpful to you. [Sorry to read of your family's loss, Emerald.] I don't know whether to suggest that you two post reactions on those old threads or bring your reactions back here, picking up the discussion where you left off today, assuming that you will have a good bit of new information. It's up to you (or you may choose not to post at all). Just in case you don't come back to post on this thread, I want to quote two Catholic Church teachings for future readers:

On the salvation of unbaptized, deceased children, from the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1261. "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,' [Mk 10:14, cf. 1 Tim 2:4] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."
[In a 1995 encyclical, the pope expressed the following opinion (the phrase in bold), spoken to repentant mothers of aborted children: "The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord.]

On the possibility of salvation of non-Catholics (even non-Christians), from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"846 'Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (Outside the Church there is no salvation).' How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. "847 This affirmation ['Extra Ecclesiam ...'] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation."

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 07, 2002.

Hi John,

I just got through reading some of the catechism on faith, works, salvation, hope, love and charity. I also brought a thread to the top on "Faith vs. Faith and love".

And yes, I think we all know who is bringing the old threads to the top......the only one who always knows where to find them!!

I am still reading through alot of old threads.....thank God they are kept in the archives. I actually visit them quite often.

Emeralds post did hit a nerve with me, and I thought it to be a bit harsh, but I have no hard feelings toward him. I did think it important however to tell him. IMHO that kind of talk is what keeps protestants and catholics so seperated, and the bashing between the two continue.

I know that it wasn't Emeralds intention to come off that way.

I do hope you understand what I am getting at here.

Thanks for your concern John. You are a kind soul yourself =).

God bless you,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 07, 2002.

Ala OSAMA. You American will be wishing that it was still a year ago soon. You have no idea what's next.

LET THE JIHAD CONTINUE

-- Rahutnapudalon (osama@hotmail.com), September 11, 2002.

Osama you filthy raghead your days of fornicating with goats and terrorising the world are drawing to a close. Bring on Iraq. Were coming to get you.

11/9 is just finishing here and New Zealanders died in WTC and Penslyvania. One of the NZ passengers on that flight played a major part in leading the attempt to overpower the highjackers. His wedding ring was found in the cockpit.

Emotions are surprisingly high, with silence being observed throughout school classrooms where I work and of course media saturation. Im praying for all of you in America at this most difficult time, I hope none of you are in New York.

Kathy I have looked down on Protestants as well before

Our Holy Father himself tries to focus on positives. He realises that hundreds of years of division and mistrust are not going to evaporate overnight and there are many obstacles. Yet he has great hope and tells us to be optimistic.

He looks not at the differnces but at the "common fundamental element", the "common root" of all religions.

As for Protestant churches he says "It is necessary to rid ourselves of sterotypes, of old habits. And above all, it is necessary to recognise the unity that already exists."

Let us all pray for unity in all religions and internationaly in the fight against terrorism. While I like a shade of grey, this issue is much more black and white to me. God Bless America.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 11, 2002.

Mary Lu and Kathy,

After reading all these posts I just want to express how deeply your remarks affected me. In a good way!! God will judge us on how we have lived our lives-NOT what denomination we claimed to belong to. I see far too many people who claim to be Christians, but who act like jack-asses. And many who claim nothing particular, but live exemplary lives. I think we all get too caught in the Catholicm Prostestant, Islamic, Buddhist, etc.. of it all. If we live, truly live, the way Jesus taught us -then I don't think we will go to hell because we didn't say we were Catholic, Buddhist, etc.. Many of you probably disagree, but I also speak from emotion, not Knowledge. Sometimes knowledge can be a hinderance.

Just look at a scientist. Why do they not believe? Because you can't prove it. They want concrete proof. There is NO concrete proof 2000 years later. FAITH!!!! Faith is a gift from God. Pray for it always. Only by the grace of God do I believe and have faith.

I pray daily for forgiveness for my past mistakes and thank God also for the gift of faith. Without it I would be really lost. I do wish everyone believed as I do, but they don't. Nothing I can say will ever change that. But, that doesn't mean they will go to hell for not believing as I do.

There are many Islamic people out there, I don't blame them all for 9-11. There are always the radical fanatics to all religions. We shouldn't be so judgemental because they aren't all catholic. It would be great if they were! I know too many Catholics who have had abortion, steal, cheat on the spouse, cheat the gov't, lie, use birth control, etc.. Are they guaranteed entrance solely because they say and believe they are Catholic? I think not.

But, like I said, I too speak from the heart and emotion. Not book knowledge. Maybe some day I will!! Please keep me in your prayers. I will do the same.

God Bless All, MLB

-- A true Catholic-MLB (jmjinga@hotmail.com), September 12, 2002.

A true Catholic,

Welcome to the forum! I hope that you stick around and engage in the conversations here, you'll find some wonderful people here.

I am happy to hear that Mary Lu and I had an affect on you in a good way.

I enjoyed reading your post, and I will certaintly keep you in my prayers.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 13, 2002.

A True Catholic,

Everything Kathy said, goes for me as well!

Welcome!

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), September 13, 2002.

i think God has proved he is real because of all the wonderful things he has brought to us. I hope God will allow me to his kingdom, and for sure i allow him in my heart. always.

-- Joseph kay (mlc327@juno.com), December 15, 2002.