[Moderator's note: this is a copy and paste of a thread that was damaged by impersonations.] FREEMASONARY

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Does anyone know about Freemasonary?I know years ago they were trying to do away with the Catholic church in a different Country.Are they anti-Catholic at this time in America.Are they into satan stuff?I was wandering because I do see their lodges all over the place,Thanks,David

-- David Sullivan (asdzxc8176@aol.com), August 11, 2001

Answers

Jmj

Hello, David. A Catholic is not permitted to be a Mason. Masonry / freemasonry is a topic we discussed on the forum in April. Here is a link to that thread. You can also read an essay on the subject here. God bless you. John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 11, 2001.

The thread that John Gecik referenced was started due to the question that I asked.

I had grown up Catholic, but had been away from the Church for some time. I joined a Masonic lodge in the early 1980s, when there was some confusion and apathy in the United States on whether a Catholic could be a mason. I even heard a speech by a priest who was a mason. I was never active and attended only a handfull of meetings. But, I had continued to pay my yearly dues.

When I "returned" to the Catholic Church, I was reading and found the 1983 statement. I then posted my question here.

Thanks to John Gecik, I was informed of the official status and the deep theological problems with masonry.

I continued to read a great deal of material on the issue. I felt that I had been misled in the 1980s and wanted to know why.

Excluding the theological problems, in the US, masonry is seen as a benign fraternity, at least in my area. Lodges in Europe have been just the opposite. They have been subversive, political, and I think lead by some truly misguided (or possibly out and out evil) men.

What I wound up asking myself was, "What is the purpose of Masonry?" For the most part it is the perpetuation of the lodge.

So, if no real good comes from it, why be a mason?

I have since left the masons and joined the Knights of Columbus and am very, very happy with my decision.

The KCs have fraternity, charity, and patriotism. My council is involved in a lot of good causes -- That are not secret!

Hope my situation helps in some way.

God Bless.

John P.

-- john placette (johnplacette@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

John G,JohnP,Thanks for the answers.I do not have any time for Mason's.I wanted to know because their is one across the street from My Church that is new.I thought it was a devilish thing to dobuild one across the street from a Catholic school,Church, Rectory and convent.I am giving my opinion,I know I do not speak for everyone. God Bless,David

-- David Sullivan (asdzxc8176@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

David

That is rather odd of them and yes devilish too. Those Masons will go to any lengths to accomplish their goals. I read recently that the Masonic lodges are slowly dying out in this country especially in Texas. Let us Pray that they become history someday. BTW, I met a guy at work back home who is Jewish and a Mason. He is forbidden to rise up in the ranks due to his religious affiliation. I have no idea why though. Also the Mormon rituals are copied from many of the Masonic Rituals too by their original founder who was a Mason. Interesting things one finds if he looks.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), March 01, 2002.

All of you are wrong about Ancient Free and Accepted Masons. My Fratunity has nothing to do with satan, however you do have to be a Christian to be inducted into our fraturnity...I said CHRISTIAN, not a Prodostant, Lutheran, or any other Religious Denomination. Catholics are more than welcome to join our fraturnity. On the other hand, Masons can not join the Catholic religion based fraturnity called, "The Knights of Columbus" because it is against their rules. Our Rituals have nothing to do w/ the morman religion or any other religion's rituals. And just for your information, Freemasonary is not dying, we could never die. Too many Lodges throughout the Nation and the World for them to Die out. I know for a fact in IL there are at least 852 lodges...and that is just in one state. So, I suggest you go to a mason himself and ask him what the fraturnity is all about before listening to Gossip. If you have any questions, please e-mail me and I will be more than happy to clear them up for you.

Thank you,

Nick Miller

-- Nick Miller (fastpitch_2000@hotmail.com), April 12, 2002.

Hello Nick,

While Masons allow Catholics and other Christians to be members, the Catholic Church does not permit believers to be members of Masonry. The Catholic Church believes that Masonry is inconsistent with Christianity. The same stance is taken by some Protestant churches. Here is some more info.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 12, 2002.

Nick

You are terribly misguided in everything you have said. The Masons DO NOT accept Christianity in any form. It is a Heretic cult who do not in any fashion accept the Deity of the GOD we are familiar with. The Masons DO NOT in any way Honor GOD in the manner that is acceptable to Christian nor Jew or any religion for that matter. Christ is forbidden in the Masonic Lodges PERIOD. Now get your facts in order please. It is a Satanic Cult of evil proportions that has for centuries tried without success to bury the Caatholic Church. The K of C is here today because of the Masonic lodge and it's damnation of Catholics and The lodge still is trying to this day to hurt Catholics by political control of jobs and position of political offices.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), April 12, 2002.

Fred,

The K of C does not exist as a response to the Masons. The K of C started because Irish Catholic men couldn't afford life insurance for themselves. If they died, they needed insurance to protect their wives and children from financial ruin. The K of C is, as you suggest, a great Catholic fraternal organization for men.

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 12, 2002.

Mateo

I am a 4th degree Knight. The Masons as I have been told did not honor Catholics in New England and would not help anyone unless they became Masons. I Know this is a hard pill to swallow. The Insurance part is quite right. It was hard for Catholics to get insurance in the past affordably.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), April 12, 2002.

Hi Mateo, I want to join the Masons...it is an ancient and noble traditional and I'd be proud to be a member ty

-- Thomas (tommytoe76@hotmail.com), May 08, 2002.

TOMMY

It is forbidden for any Catholic to be a Mason. It is because of the structure of the cult and the denial of the divinity of God and Christ. If you are Catholic then you will automatically excommunicate yourself becoming a mason. DON'T DO IT.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 08, 2002.

I Find it very interesting that the war between the Knights and the Masons rages on.

As far as it being a cult, the Masons are not. As a matter of fact, the beleif in one God is all one needs to be a Mason. There are other requirements but that is a big one. How does this make ones belief in Jesus Christ not able to be a Mason? If you believe in the Holy Trinity, then you believe one one god in three forms. This being a tenant of the Catholic Church, it will not excommunicate a person.

To all please remember that the catholic church is still in the belief that ignorance is the only way to keep the membership in the church. it is evident in the service. the use of bells and the use of latin in the service is but a carryover from the dark ages when one could not read or speak latin unless well educated.

Ironcally, John Huss was burned at stake for believing in doing the service in the common tongue of the people and for educating all the masses. Catholics do not want a "Doubting Thomas" only mindless lambs they can lead.

If you want to be a lamb, follow the Catholic belief of Masons being evil. If you have a mind, choose what you want and RESEARCH! make an informed decision.

Masonically

Timothy Gill

-- Timothy Gill (TimothyDGill@Hotmail.com), August 27, 2002.

"To all please remember that the catholic church is still in the belief that ignorance is the only way to keep the membership in the church."

Oh my goodness, I had no idea... lol.

"If you want to be a lamb, follow the Catholic belief of Masons being evil. If you have a mind, choose what you want and RESEARCH! make an informed decision."

I like that... reminds me of the lambs vs. the goats that Christ talked about. Hmmmm....

Ironically,

Emerald

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 27, 2002.

The oath they take when they get WAY UP the corporate ladder into the 32nd degree stage, is satanic -- it's an oath denouncing the Son of God and installing another in His place. They believe in god -- they just don't define him 'til they get way up to the top -- and guess what? It ain't the God of the Catholic Church, it ain't the God of the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church, or any other Christian Church!

The Masons are all about POWER, POWER, AND MORE POWER! And then turning that POWER over to the great deceiver!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 27, 2002.

Gail,

Right on!!!! You are exactly right. I have 32nd degree masons in my stepdad's family and am surrounded by masons in my area. Fred did a lot of research as well into the masons because there is a gravesite in the Catholic cemetery with the mason's logo on it that upset him greatly.

What he found out about the masons upset me as well - I had been taught my entire life that it was a privilege to be asked to join this so-called "fraternal" group. What the general public knows about this secret society is very limited. Unless one of their members breaks their vow of silence, you will never find out just by talking to them.

There are a number of places on the web from former members that discuss thse secret rituals and the secret oaths they must take. What you read there will astound you.

You hit the nail on the head. These guys aren't Christian by any stretch of the imagination. Their ultimate goal is power and infiltration into positions of power.

Carolyn

-- Carolyn (fcb@heartland.com), August 28, 2002.

AS YOU SPEAK ABOUT MASONARY BEING A CULT IF YOU HAVE A PASTOR, MINISTER,REVEREND, HOLDING THIS TITLEWHICH ARE MASONS WHO STUDY THE BIBLE HOW CAN IT BE A CULT. SEE WHEN YOU ARE ON THE OUT SIDE TRYING TO LOOK IN YOU HAVE TO ASUMME WHAT ARE GOING ON IN SIDE THERE. IF MASONARY WAS SUCH A CULT THEN THIS WORLD IS A CULT BECAUSE MASONARY WAS THE FIRST ORDER TO EVERY EXIST IN THIS WORLD . ITS GOES FROM ANCIENT TIME OF JESUS CHRIST WHO WAS A MASON HIS SELF. SO THERE FOR AND OTHER ORDER IS ONLY A KNOCK OFF OF MASONARY. FOR YOU INFORMATION MASONARY REALLY IS A WAY OF LIFE. ITS TO TEACH YOU TO BE A BETTER MAN TO TEACH YOU TO LIVE HOLY, TO TEACH YOU TO RESPECT THE LAWS OF THE LAND. SO I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO UNNDRESTAND IT TO SPEAK ABOUT IT NOT JUST WONDER ABOUT IT (COME TO RELIZE THAT MASONARY IS THE STRONGEST ORDER OUT TODAY AND THE MOST POPULAR.......

-- SAM SHULER (SHULER662002@YAHOO.COM), September 10, 2002.

Sam,

How do you know that Jesus was a Mason? Did Jesus ever profess to being a Mason? And if so, where is that written? Or, is this something that your masson club has taught you, apperantly without backing it up?

Let us know please.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 10, 2002.

Mr. Shuler: Jesus Christ was NOT a Mason. You've been deceived. Masons do not date back into the ancient world; but play at being in tune with ancient traditions and mysteries. The masonic ceremonies are given mythological trappings for the sake of ritual, the flashy kind.

Masonry isn't a cult. It is rightly considered a secret society. Secret societies have existed throughout history. They initiate followers through secret rites, with secret oaths and obligations. They assume a mantle of superiority over common people; this is a sin. The sin of pride. It is also condemned by the Catholic Church for 1.)Being secret, therefore devious in the very intention. 2.) Being contrary to revealed truth as we've received directly from God, through the prophets and saints and above all through the Person of His divine Son, Jesus Christ.

The masonic attitude toward any single religion is indifference-- no matter which it may be, it is irrelevant for membership. The typical view in masonic circles of an eternal and Almighty God is a force of nature, an unknowable, hidden God. They call Him an Architect; which is far below the true dignity and glory of our True God. All these failings in theological aspects of masonic belief are seen as purely arbitrary, without any deep importance. Under the circumstances, many grave errors have crept into perfect respectability within the masonic societies. Among which, the more evil have been subversion and treason in governments; and lust for power over the masses. You only have to see the many evil works of one particular branch of that masonic character: the American Ku Klux Klan. It operates in secret, under cover of night and cloaked, with complete disregard for human rights or the commandments of God.

Maybe not all lodges and men's clubs descend to that level; but in many ways they are closely related. Most of all in their common disrespect and disregard for religious truth. That's why the Catholic Church must condemn it as anti-Christian.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 11, 2002.

This is a good thread, I feel comfortable enough to post.

I am a nominal catholic, I was raised in a loving home which endeared the relationship with the Holy Trinity and followed the customs of Catholicsm with much fortitude. I had even felt the calling of the priesthood my entire life yet was dismayed by the proposition of no family. However, in my college years, I rebelled against much, including my religion. It is easy to have rebellious feelings against anything organized and established. It's a justification to feel independent, and we are fortunate enough to have a country mature enough not to lambast that kind of activity, but that's another discussion.

However, I never lost sight of Jesus as my Savior, however far I distanced my relationship with him, the fact was I always knew Him to be the Truth. Over the years I went to church less and less, read the bible more and more, substituting priestly guidance and the sacrements with a personal search for truth within it's pages. I read other books as well regarding organized religion and it's evolution in Western Euorpe. Eventually I began reading about the ancient societies of Europe and was absolutely facinated by the intricacies and rich history of the Masons. They were so ancient, no one could even pinpoint their beginning, and yet they flourished and had a hand in very many major events throughout history.

I found myself in communication with one of the local lodges shortly thereafter and petitioned for acceptance. I was admitted, and anxiously awaited my initiation to the first degree. It was about this time that my girlfriend began expressing her concerns. She was raised as a Southern Baptist, and it wasn't long before her telling folks about my newfound comradery was met with "THE MASONS ARE THE DEVIL" type remarks. She did her own research and began to plead with me to reconsider, I ignored her because I assumed that her research largely was derived from fundamentalist Christian sources. The same people that denounced Rock and Roll, replaced grape juice for wine at church, and were convinced that Jesus was a Nordic man with Glowing blond hair and ocean blue eyes were certainly in no position to lecture me on the merits of an ancient society! I grew up in a tiny agricultural city and generally loathed these people's persistant negativity.

So, forthright and with much continued anticipation, I entered the lodge and went through the initiation. What transpired that night disturbed me and inflicted upon my soul a very dangerous weight of guilt and shame. Very clearly from the onset, this was far more than the social group that the lodge enjoyed portraying itself as. All they had said and all the literature they had given me suggested that all that was required was a belief in God, and nothing more. I had assumed that any religious references or mentions of God would be limited to that... ie... "do you believe in God? Yes? Okay, this is our secret handshake, password, all that stuff. Now let's go do some charity in our newfound fellowship!" What in fact I discovered is that the entirety of the fellowship is intricatly woven with perverted religious overtones. They are meant to be subtle to the newcomer, but my heart did not deceive me. I was forced to swear an unholy oath, one which if I ever broke, would lead to a gruesome, violent death. Masons say this is an allegory for how serious their secrecy is, not to be taken literally. Well which parts are to be taken literally and which are not? Did I not just swear to allmighty God? Was that an allegory too? These types of questions are what they _want_ you to be asking yourself. Questions about truth, however subtle, are a pretense to deceit. It is a quiet, attractive gateway to something else, and where they lead you, you do not want to follow.

Once, in college, I went through a secret ritual as part of an initiation to an international social fraternity of undergraduates. It was a special time, and no where in the process did I feel my core beliefs were being compromised. This comparison gave me a basis for doubt. Unlike my college fraternity, this organization made it a point to repeatedly mention God throughout the ordeal, and in a fashion which contorted my established belief in Him. Saints were referred to in ways I had not perceived before. This made me questions a few things: if they were purely monotheist why are they talking about the Christian idea of Sainthood? And secondly, why do they claim to know more about the Saints than the Church who cannonized them? They also made frequent references to Judeo- Christian beliefs, contorting them to appear as if they have some secret knowledge the world has been without. Someone mentioned on this board that Jesus was a Mason. That kind of hogwash is exactly what the Masons expect to perpetuate. They want total control of your religious perspective. On a recent poll on an Australia Freemasonry website, 20 percent of respondants said they put Freemasonry above Family and Work; 60 percent said they put it on the same level. Well, friends, that's just crazy; but that's what Freemasonry leads to.

Also, for some reason, I just have a general problem with calling anyone "Worshipful Master".

The details of the initiation ritual are available many places throughout the web. If you find one that appears to be legit, it probably is. Read it, it will not take long for one to realize how subversive it truly is.

Shortly after being "raised to the 1st degree", nightmares were hauting me at night. I had a dream where I saw my own face turn towards me but the white of the eyes had filled with blood. Such stark message had never been so clear: get the hell out. I woke up that moment and wrote my resignation letter only days after my initiation. I had to get some sleep, and finally I did.

There are some obvious problems with Freemasonry, it tends to be VERY divided across racial lines in America, haven't we figured out yet that anything like that is just plain ignorant? Many lodges have depreciated into sad groups of people who have no life outside of the lodge passing around titles to make themselves feel better.

Fortunately I'm still young (mid 20's) so there is plenty of hope. Writing this down has actually inspired me to return to my Church and rejoin life as a practicing Catholic, I think I'll go on Sunday :)

-- Jeremy J (nonservatum@hotmail.com), October 12, 2002.

Hi Jeremy, this is a great forum not just a good thread ! Interesting to read of your experiences with Freemasonary- lookout youre on the hitlist now sharing your secrets ;). Glad to hear you might head back to Mass, Ive been a bit patchy myself lately but Im off tommorow morning. Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 12, 2002.

Wow, that's quite a testimony! Thanks for your truthfulness and WELCOME HOME!!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 12, 2002.

Hey Jeremy. Thanks for posting that. That was one of the most encouraging things I have read on the forum yet.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 12, 2002.

-- (), October 14, 2002

Answers

Thanks, Mr. Butler

-- David (David@excite.com), October 14, 2002.

The Masons are a hideous, secretive, childish, sinister group of morons who feel the need to be in 'a gang'. This gang has always been devoted to the destruction of the Catholic Church. They hate Catholics and have very strong links in business and finance, as well as in the Vatican, perversely enough. If they have nothing to hide, then why are they so secretive? A good book about them is 'The Brotherhood', read it and decide for yourself.

-- Bren Batson (thebolt1888@hotmail.com), February 02, 2003.

It disturbs me deeply to realize that so many people out there have made so many assumptions about Masonry, religion and the the Catjolic Church. Remember the Catholic Church did at one time execute everyone who did not agree with them. That is a fact many of us forget. I grw up Catholic and am a nominal Catholic. I became inerested in MAosnry and joined myh local lodge. Nothing I do conflicts with my religios beliefs. I have not had any sort of professional gain becaus of my membership. I have grown however and become a better man and not because of membership in the Lodge but because I have expanded my world and my views and learned much. There are a lot of half truths and whole lies about every group and organization, including the Catholic Church. I never rode a goat, worshipped the Devil or renouncedmy beliefs and do not plan on it anytime soon. Long and the short of it do not take all that you read on the web as truth and consult more than one source and do just go to the crackpot websites because most are anti catholic believing that the Vatican is part of the New World Orcer, blah blah, blah. Just some thoughts from my end.

-- Orlando Avila (misteravila@juno.com), August 13, 2003.

Remember the Catholic Church did at one time execute everyone who did not agree with them. That is a fact many of us forget.

"Remember"? How can one "remember" something the no one ever knew?

"Fact"? "Forget"? You have no proof that this claim "is a fact," because it is not a fact. Again, how can "many of us forget" something we never knew -- and could not have known, since it is a fiction?

I grw up Catholic and am a nominal Catholic.

A "nominal Catholic" is not a Catholic at all.

I became inerested in MAosnry and joined myh local lodge.

No Catholic can be a Mason. Abandon that anti-Catholic false religion and get back to active Catholicism, please.

A.

-- Art (ars@gratia.artis), August 14, 2003.

the reason that masons don't want anyone to talk about religion or politics within the lodge is due to the fact that many contemporary world problems are a result of differences in religion or politics. Masons of diverse political parties and many different religions dwell together in harmony because they recognize that religion and politics, though important each of us, are best left outside the lodge. I have read where many of you have slandered the masons by calling such organization the DEVIL. However,I have heard many Christian affiliations refer to the holy catholic church as the anti- christ and some believe that the book of Revelation happened during the fall of the roman catholic empire. I am not suggesting that the Catholic church is the anti-christ nor do i believe that the masons are of the devil. Both organizations have put forth efforts to the betterment of society. Jesus stated that an empire could not stand against itself when he was also accused of having evil powers.If both organizations are for the good of society, (which there is more evidence to support this statement than there is to defraud such c onclusion), then how could either organization be evil. The only evil that is here is the slanderous remarks that have been made.

-- damon deal (damondeal32@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.

The Roman Catholic Empire?? That's a new one! The Book of Revelation was written by a prominent leader of the Holy Catholic Church, and it did deal with the Pagan Roman Empire. Your terminology seems a bit skewed. It is an overstatement to say that the Masons are "Satanic", but it is a historical fact that the organization was founded primarily to oppose the Catholic Church. It was brought to the United States specifically to ensure solidarity against the increasing immigration of Catholics, mainly Irish Catholics, depriving them of jobs and other opportunities for which they had left their homes and come to America. There are elderly parishioners in my parish who remember seeing signs in business windows, "Irish need not apply", and in restaurants, "We don't serve Catholics". This movement, which occurred in "the land of the free" during the past 80 years, was spearheaded by the Masons.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 07, 2003.

Dear Mr. Deal:
We know what the ideals of Freemasonry purport to be. Now why explain: ''Masons of diverse political parties and many different religions dwell together in harmony because they recognize that religion and politics, though important each of us, are best left outside the lodge.''

Once within the private confines of your lodge, there's no outside influence to have any concern for. You're a law unto yourselves. Is that not the essence of a secret society?

You cite your acceptance of ''many different religions,;'' in the lodge. That's straight from the ''know-nothings' charter, isn't it? Catholics make no pretense of pandering to many different religions, because ours is the only genuine God. We strictly desire to bring all souls to Christ, that's all. But if the faith is to be homogenized by lodge mandate, it's an un-Christian mandate. We believe this mandate countermands the Word of God. No hard feelings; that's just one Catholic's honest opinion.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 07, 2003.

Link of interest.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 16, 2003.

Yeah, I saw that just yesterday jake.

I hope the recognition of this reality sharpens people's perceptions.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 16, 2003.

I had a nice time reading the back and forth discussions between Masons and Catholics.

I would like to say that Jesus was neither a Catholic nor a Mason :) In fact he was Jesus. He is the lamb who's blood was shed for us. The Son of God. If you are a Mason and at some point have to stop living the life of Christ to appease a lodge or group then you must leave.

If you are a Christian and find yourself in a Church that does not preach the word of God. The Gospel of Christ (And that sometimes is hard to discern) then leave that place too.

Remember that all Faiths, Groups, and Cultures will commit acts of evil in their histories. It is due to our sinful nature. The Veil of the Jewish Temple was torn in two when the Lord gave his life on the cross. This was a sign that God no longer would live within a building made by the hands of a man, but rather in the hearts of men, women and children.

These are the true churches that will one day be able to stand before God's eyes. He sees into the heart.

What is the way to Heaven?

Is it being Catholic or a Mason. No. Many souls as described in Jesus' parable will not be able to answer key questions when they arrive before God. And according to those answers many will find peace or damnation.

When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was naked, did you clothe me? When I was in prison, did you visit me? When I was sick, did you care for me?

It is accepting the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for your sins and to live his life of love and compassion and to obey what he said to so many blind, dead, and lame souls he healed"

"Your FAITH has made you well. Go and sin no more" Yes brothers and sisters. Their faith had healed them. Faith in what?? In being Catholic? Jew? Mason? No, Faith in Jesus. I have not read any of that in the long rebuttals I have gone thru...

The right dogma will not guarantee closeness to God. Please look into your hearts and examine your walks...

-- Luis (EMiracle911@aol.com), February 06, 2004.

Dear Luis:
The superficial attitude of your faith is letting yourself run free; without worry, and allowing yourself the luxury of ignoring the Word of God. Our Lord explained to His followers; His sheep know Him and He knows His sheep.

A Good Shepherd keeps all His sheep together in a single fold, or flock. They do not run free, coming and going without discipline. His sheep remain close beside Him in their one fold, where they can be sure the Good Shepherd will always feed them and guard them from harm. You tell us it's His Will that sheep have freedom to run away. They do not; we stay where He has commanded us. We stay within His Holy Church.

Your thoughts about ''What is the way to Heaven?'' remind me of a church Jesus wrote to in the letter:

''I know thy works; thou art neither cold nor hot. I would that thou wert cold or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth; because thou sayest, --I am rich and have grown wealthy and have need of nothing-- and dost not know that thou art the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked one.'' (Rev 3:15)

You came here saying you needed NOTHING. Here you articulate: ''Faith in what?? In being Catholic? Jew? Mason? No, Faith in Jesus.'' I tell you with sincerity; faith in Jesus is faith in His Holy Catholic Church; He founded the Church. He sent apostles forth to bring our souls into that Holy Church; souls who were all LOST SHEEP. That Church is His sheepfold; and you deny our Good Shepherd when you leave His fold for the open road.

When you associate Christ's Church alongside Jews and/or Masons, you show indifference to His Will. You show your deadly lukewarm faith. The faith He must someday vomit out of His Holy mouth.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 06, 2004.

Well Eugene,

I really felt the Love of Christ from you brother. Thank God Jesus didn't "Vomit" on us the way we deserved and still deserve. Although the verse you quoted from Revelation is a real event that will happen, but we are still living under God’s Grace and I always thank Him for that.

You judged me so very quickly. Remember we are only seeing snapshots of our ideas here. The Catholic Church didn't come to be until centuries after the death and rising of our Lord.

Now Please don't think I am anti Catholic. It's simply that you seem to see as the true faith as being Catholic. And, it is my view that their are those who know Christ who are not Catholic. If you see this as not being true please answer this question.

Was the thief on the cross who Christ promised paradise too a Catholic? Or part of the Holy Church or as you say "HIS" Church.

God lives in the heart of those who have accepted Christ as their savior. If you add anything to that or demand more you are taking away from the sacrifice of Christ.

Please understand that there are some Catholics and non Catholic Christians who do not “KNOW” Christ. I am making the point that salvation is a matter of sincerity of heart and worship through a Christ like life.

You are using a Church that as an organization did not exist in Jesus’ time but that fact does not make it less or more.

Jesus said, I am the way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to Father but by me. Eugene, perhaps I did not say it well is the last posting, but this is my point. And in all the Gospels Jesus never says that you must be in HIS holy Church or be Catholic. You will not find that at all.

Lets have the spirit of the 1st century Christians that lived lives of giving and when persecuted did not condemn or ask God to vomit out judgment but rather showed love and forgiveness even in the arenas of Rome where they were killed.

I don’t have the passage with me, but John and James asked Jesus one time to call down fire on a town that had rejected them. And Jesus rebuked them for it was not their place to lay Judgments on anyone. As a Christian we walk a fine line between defending our faiths and acting like James and John calling down fire on the heathens. I say this to edify you and encourage you and not to judge you.

That was my second point. We can argue all day long and accuse each other of who is true and false. But Eugene we know where the homeless people are and where the sick are and where the naked are and where the alone are. Because once we take the time to spend most of our energy there we will find Christ, as he is “always close to the brokenhearted”

-- Luis (EMiracle911@aol.com), February 06, 2004.

LuisI'm considering your statement, ''The Catholic Church didn't come to be until centuries after the death and rising of our Lord.'' And: ''You judged me so very quickly -- ''

You judged the Catholic Church very quickly, didn't you? And wrongly, too. The birth of the Catholic Church took place on Pentecost, 33 AD-- (Acts, 2 :1-:41). Well in advance of your own Bible. You go on: ''it is my view that their are those who know Christ who are not Catholic.'' (I wouldn't dispute that. There are innocent souls who never heard of the Catholic Church. But you aren't one of them.) ''please answer this question.

''Was the thief on the cross who Christ promised paradise too a Catholic? Or part of the Holy Church or as you say "HIS" Church.''.

Reply:Our Lord saved many souls who belonged to no Church. But they came directly to Him, and He is God. He gave us his Church because he would not stay in the world indefinitely; and many millions of new souls would be saved in His Church ! You may think He established His Holy Church, and commissioned His disciples to take His Holy Gospel to all the nations --in order for you to dismiss the Church and her teachings. That's how wrong you are.

It was the Church living on after His ascension to the right hand of His Almighty Father-- the Catholic Church --where our lives were dedicated to Jesus Christ from the days of the apostles. The Church who preserved and published in book form the entire NEW TESTAMENT of Jesus Christ. You have no other Gospel except the one His apostles spread by the Catholic faith! All your ancestors were Catholics. The holy apostles were saints in the Church first, and thousands more followed later. We have documents to prove it. Those believers who worshipped God in Jesus Christ; in the Roman catacombs; who were martyred by the Roman emperors-- all Catholics.

For some reason you say: ''--those who have accepted Christ as their Savior. If you add anything to that or demand more you are taking away from the sacrifice of Christ. --To this, I say only: Prove it. Our Lord never said that. Nothing can ever ''take away'' from Our Lord's sacrifice. Except openly opposing His divine Will; and denying His Words. Something you & many free- lance Christians consistently do. You're doing it today. You dispute His Church's authority.

''And in all the Gospels Jesus never says that you must be in HIS Holy Church or be Catholic.'' --That's plainly ridiculous. The entire New Testament tells us of His Church. Every parable of Jesus tells us: ''The kingdom of heaven is---'' and He speaks of his own Church in the world. --What Jesus NEVER said was, ''Blessed are the Bible scholars,'' or-- ''Find me in the Yellow Pages of the Bible.'' His Church is where believers find Him. The Catholic Church of the holy apostles, who wrote our Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Church of YOUR ancestors, Luis.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 06, 2004.

Hello again,

When Paul led someone to the Lord in Corinth he didn't call him or her Catholic. (Yet they were part of HIS Church) You insist that HIS Church is the Catholic Church. Indeed the term Christian came later from Antioch and it meant “little Christ”. And the Catholic Church as an organization came some 300 years later. So for 300 years after Christ’s death and until now we are still part of HIS church.

Now HIS Church is the body of believers. I think we can agree on that. I am saying that the Body of Christ on Earth is not from one Church or institution. I cannot with a clear conscience dismiss that fact that perhaps in a Protestant Church somewhere in the world there might be a person who knows Christ.

Can you as a Christian claim that no one outside the catholic faith knows Christ??? I guess that’s what I really want answered. It’s really a profound question.

But no matter how you answer and I don’t mean to mushy but I do appreciate you taking the time to answer me and I hope we still remain as brothers which is the great thing about being a Christian!

Luis

-- Luis (EMiracle911@aol.com), February 06, 2004.

Certainly we're brethren, Luis. Nothing personal; I just have to inform you you don't know what you're talking about. How would I know your ancestors were all Catholics? because they were brethren to my ancestors. We had no other Christian world community than the Catholic Church anywhere before the so-called reformation. Even the schismatic believers of pre-1000 AD, originally were Catholics. They objected to being under our Pope's (Peter's) authority & left the Catholic Church, just as your own protestant teachers objected and left her. There was never any other Church in the world founded by Jesus Christ. Everybody knows that.

The saints were in that Church even before the name Catholic (meaning universal) was customary. Just because you didn't read something it in the Bible doesn't mean it hasn't remained the same Church. The Bible never tells me Jesus drank water; and I still believe he drank water. --He walked on the water; it's written. He founded his Church, it's written. His Church was to last until the end of the world, it's written.

It has lasted; as our Church. Not as a ''body'' of loose sheep. As the Church of the holy apostles, still saving souls 2,000 years later. Souls like you and me.

Now you don't want to be loyal to Christ's Church. You ''discovered'' that the Body of Christ on Earth ''is not from one Church or institution.'' But Christ never told you that. He gave you an everlasting, living and working Church, to bring you to His salvation. It's the same one He founded on Peter. The Catholic Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 06, 2004.

Sorry I got back to late, but the weekends go by so very fast and I can't understand how it is that I am back at work!! Thanks for the response and I understand what you are saying. I was not offended at all, but you scared me with the Vomit thing. :)

I hope you are well and please take care!

Luis

-- Luis (Emiracle911@aol.com), February 10, 2004.

As an IRISH CATHOLIC I am a FERRMASON. Where is the argument about being a Catholic??????? I have been excepted as WHO I AM not WHAT I AM. I have not given up my religion!!!!!!!

-- Harry Beattie (gray.wolf@ntlworld.com), March 22, 2004.

Harry,

Read this thread from this forum where this topic was previously discussed.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson-nospam@hotmail.com), March 22, 2004.