What are the catholic views on suicide in the world?

-- Aaron Ogg (oggy_is@hotmail.com), October 27, 2002

Answers

As a Catholic I am very pro-suicide. I think anyone who wants to kill him/herself should in whatever manner they wish. Whether they are ill, depressed, having leagle trouble, or whatever other reason it is wrong for them to remain in pain. They should play for God and Jesus to accept them after they die and leave all there worldly belongings to the church.

-- SoloExcept (oggy_is@hotmail.com), October 27, 2002.

SoloExcept

Are you sure you are Catholic? Or have any belief in God at all?

How can you be pro-suicide? That is definitly not the answer to life's problems!

Jesus Christ is the answer: Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

May God help you...

How can someone decide to take their own life, and expect God and/or Jesus to say, "well, I understand you had a rough time, but come on in to heaven anyway."

There have been plenty of people that have suffered for Jesus' sake and didn't kill themselves.

Again, Jesus Christ is the answer to our problems, not suicide...

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 27, 2002.

> "As a Catholic I am very pro-suicide."

No, you are not a Catholic, because Catholics have to follow the teachings of the Church. Life is a gift from God, and it is God who decides when we leave this life.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), October 27, 2002.

Aaron you say Whether they are ill, depressed, having leagle trouble, or whatever other reason it is wrong for them to remain in pain.

It is not wrong to remain in pain. God is always on the side of the sufering. The man of suffering who endures is the greatest and purest revelation of love. We can see that here on this forum in the love Chris Butler has, despite his emmense suffering.

In the words of Pope John Paul II

"God is always on the side of suffering...he freely accepted suffering. He could have choosen not to do so... even at the moment of the crucifixion..."Let the messiah , the King of Israel come down from the cross that we may see and believe"(MK 15:320 But he did not accpet that challenge."

WHY Aaron did he not do this if as you say you are Catholic and believe in an all powerful God? He did this to show that God is with us in our suffering, by allowing Christ to be humiliated on the Cross, it is proof of his soldarity with man, he places himself on the side of man.

The suffering of Christ shows us how much God loves us to give us his only son, it is the revelation of complete love and those who can endure suffering are not abandoned by God by walk with him and share in his suffering..share in the the love that loved "to the end" (JN 13:1). "To the end" means to the last breath, just like Christ Aaron.

Be not Afraid

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 28, 2002.

As Catholics we follow the 10 commandments. "Thou shalt not kill" is one of them. Jesus also told us to Love our neighbor as ourself. Therefore, if you believe that murdering someone else is wrong, thus should you hold the murder of yourself.

Murder is murder whether it be homocide, suicide, infanticide, or any other form of killing.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 28, 2002.

Aaron,

You cannot be catholic, nor a Christian because no Christian believes in suicide - muslims believe in suicide, not Christians.

Most people who end their lives by suicide are mentally ill and want to 'end the pain' of depression or some severe painful medical condition - they want to get out of the darkness and are not thinking with their right mind and it is for God to look at the whole picture of the person's life and decide his/her eternal fate.

But, suicide is not God's way. I don't know about the Jewish faith and what they think about suicide, but I do believe that they, too, follow the Ten Commandments, I'm not sure.

Any religion that follows God's Ten Commandments does not believe in suicide. I doubt that you do, either, Aaron. I think you just want to aggravate people on this forum.

You are not aggravating me though, your way of thinking is between you and God - let Him decide your fate. May He touch you with His healing hands and speak to you on what is right. May He give you the grace to accept His commands, His love, and His peace.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), October 29, 2002.

Jmj

Hi, MaryLu. I haven't talked to you for a long time now!

You wrote: "muslims believe in suicide, not Christians."

Actually, from what I have read and seen in TV interviews, it appears that the majority of Muslims believe that the Koran rejects suicide.

The problem is, though, that Islam (like Aaron Ogg's Protestantism) lacks a Magisterium -- an infallible teaching authority -- to explain what God revealed through Apostolic Tradition and Scripture.

Consequently, within Islam, there are multiple interpretations of the Koran -- including one interpretation by which Palestinians and others try to justify homicide/suicide bombings. [The lack of an Islamic Magisterium is one of many clues that can lead a logical Moslem to realize that he is practicing a false religion.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 29, 2002.

Hello, I just want to say- how can any of you say that you believe in God? My main question to all of you is- Who are you to judge whether or not someone is a Christian- the only person who can decide this is God. Please stop trying to play God, everyone has their own reasons to believe- worry about your own beliefs, don't let others threaten your own beliefs because of theirs- God would never want this. And- not to say that I agree with suicide- because I don't- but- who is to say that God wouldn't forgive the person for their sins (suicide) once they got up to Heaven? anyway- I was just a little sickened by the amount of criticism in this room.

By all means- suicide is an aweful thing to think of- and it makes us all afraid- this is why all of you have reacted to strongly to Aarons question and response.

:) J

-- j (noneedtojudge@hotmail.com), November 09, 2002.

Wow, "J." Are you sure we are reading the same page?
No one "reacted strongly" to Aaron's question. Perfectly normal and calm replies were given.

Also, you are wrong to say that we are not able to determine who is a Christian. The word "Christian" has a definition that you can find in any dictionary. This is not a question of "judging," but merely determining if a person follows the basic tenets of Christianity.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 10, 2002.

Suicide should never be an option when things get rough. God, as we all know, is the sole beginning and end of every human life. Therefore, no one has even a drop of right to take life (it may be of others or of one's own). God in his infinite greatness and soveregnity would never allow us to be tested beyond our capabilities. Yes sufferings and problems abound, but God's bountiful grace also abounds. If we, Catholics, believe that GOD IS A LOVING FATHER, then it is consistent to say that He will never forsake us although we experience miseries. "It is by way of admonition that [God] chastices those who are close to Him." God bless you. May He conscientiously tell you in the deeper core of your heart - in your conscience - what should be done especially in moments of sever depression and trial. COURAGE!

-- Andrew Valencia (concern@hotmail.com), November 25, 2002.

Check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church on suicide, articles 2280-2283. It states it just perfectly.

"we are stewards, not owners of the life God has entrusted to us." It's wrong..HOWEVER... "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish or great fear of hardship, suffering or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. "

"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own life."

come on guys, where's your mercy? sure it's wimpy, sure I get mad about someone being so 'self-centered', but when all is said and done, who KNOWS what anguish one is suffering so as to lead them to take their life? What pain one might be trapped in, as simple as the solution may seem to us 'well' people, there are folks who are mentally ill and I could never say our Lord doesn't have mercy in their case.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), November 25, 2002.

Theresa, I think that all (or almost all) of the folks who replied above agree with the point you made -- that we are incapable of judging whether or not any given person who committed suicide was damned. We are not merciless (not even your son)!

The problem is that we weren't really discussing that angle of the subject. Rather we were talking about the fact that suicide is always a mortal sin objectively speaking. We didn't get over into the subject of subjective guilt or lack thereof. As you said, there can be mitigating factors -- tremendous stresses or even a sort of insanity -- that can diminish or even completely remove the subjective guilt that a person incurs when committing an objectively mortal sin.

John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 27, 2002.

oh, ok

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), November 27, 2002.

Dear people.

I refute the argument that God allowing his son to suffer on the cross constitutes him showing his love for man. I also challenge the concept that suffering is somehow noble. All this looks like to me is church waffling to excuse the appalling things they have done in the past and indeed continue to do under the guise of "helping" people. Refusing to alleviate the suffering of his only son was a pretty bad case of setting a lousy example from God's quarter, or so it appears to me.

But then the God of the bible puts himself across as a fickle, jealous, argumentative and frequently self-contradictionary "angry absent father". He needs better PR people.

One Love. Del xxx

-- Delirium Tremens (painispretty@yahoo.co.uk), November 28, 2002.

Where do you refute it?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 28, 2002.

He couldn't if he spent twenty years trying. But he wants to sound cool. Poor soul; deplores suffering and thinks we ought to punish God. He plays at God and hasn't relieved anyone's suffering. Just wants them to get snuffed. He's all heart--

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 28, 2002.

I am a 16 year old atheist who stumbled apon this site while doing a google search for pro-suicide. Ive read some of the answers given in response to this question and i agree with the person who asked who are you to say that you cannot be christian and be pro-suicide. I dont know much about christianity since ive never been to church before, but why couldnt someone have christian beliefs and also believe that if you ask for gods fogiveness before killing yourself that he might understand and still let you into heaven?

*There is no god*

-- Jen (noone@nowhere.com), December 05, 2002.

Hey Jen, Just a quick question.

If there is no God - then how is it that we came into existence? If it was a "bang" then who banged the bang. At the very beginning of whatever there was, there had to be something to cause it to become what it is. If there is one thing in life we can be sure of, it is that we didn't create ourselves. And if we didn't create ourselves, the someone had to have. Well - unless of course you're into that, "we don't really exist..." type of mentality. But something has to exist, whether it is simply our thoughts or if it is really physical. Even thoughts, feelings, perceptions (things that we know have to exist) had to have been brought into existence by something.

What do you think?

On the suicide topic: The reason we can't be "Christian" and pro- suicide is because one isn't Christian when they do un-Christian things. Christ (who is the basis of our Christ-ian belief) taught us that we should love our neighbor as OURSELVES. If we don't love ourselves enough to want to live - then how is it that we can love our neighbors?

Hope that you have the opportunity to read some of the other threads.

Take care,

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 05, 2002.

Even it a question ment for catholics , I'll give an response !!

Unfortunely , everyone can commit suicide , but why should you do such a stupid something , why ?? __ Suicide has nothing to do with any religion , it's you who might think it would be the best solution , but it's not and it never will be !!!! __ Think about it , think about the others , who you left in sadness !!!!

You are born to live , not to die !!!! __ Enjoy life , life goes not always as you want , but you live !!!! __ Sometimes , life is like the 4 seasons , it's what you make of it !!!! __ Think positive , ENJOY LIFE , think on all the pleasures you can make in your life !!!!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 05, 2002.

Jake, Eugene, and the other good souls. Again you are speaking from your heart, and not paying attention tothis guy's words. Note the sarcasm, about leaving your money to the church. Maybe, because I'm a big city guy, I tend to be dubious about these scammers. You folks are too good for your own good. Read between the lines, when you get some guy pulling your chain be careful. God bless you,

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), December 05, 2002.

Looks to me like Satan has made a visit to the forum and it won't be the first time or the last.

Dear St. Michael, defend us in battle.

God gave us the gift of life and wants us to enjoy life and the many gifts He gave us. Yes, life is hard, very hard at times, but for those of us who believe, God sustains us, gives us strength, hope, guidance. He gets us through the tough times and never fails us.

It is Satan who wants to destroy life, wants people to stay in the darkness until they can't stand it any more and think the only way out is suicide - these are Satan's tactics.

I saw something in our church bulletin once: Someone asked a psychiatrist - "If someone comes to you and wants to commit suicide, how would you handle that?" The psychiatrist said, "I would tell him to go find someone worse off than him/her and help that person." Helping others is a way to get rid of our self-centeredness and become other-centered.

Think positive, love yourself, love others, mos of all - Love Jesus. He will help you. If you can't do any of these things get help. If you are thinking sucidal thoughts, that is Satan calling you.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), December 06, 2002.

Jen, you said~

why couldnt someone have christian beliefs and also believe that if you ask for gods fogiveness before killing yourself that he might understand and still let you into heaven? *There is no god*

First, who knows? Maybe He WILL forgive you and let you in Heaven but it's the alternative that keeps me from doing it. Christian or not..how the hell can someone be PRO-suicide?? That just boggles the mind. Because in the very basic sense, could you really look at someone who is standing on the edge of a cliff, ready to jump off and say "go ahead..do it..who cares"? If so, your choice of religion is moot. It just makes you sub-human. Believe me, I've known of people that looked at someone with a gun to their head and said here, let me show you how to do it. THAT is a sorry excuse for a human being.

And you say "there is no God". Question~how do you know? Don't come back with "well, how do you know there IS a God?". Answer me first. How do you KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is NO God?

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), December 06, 2002.

[Our priests put a very good Q&A in our bulletin this week (actually almost every week). Here's today's:]

Q: Why does the Church oppose euthanasia in the form of suicide, even when in some cases it would seem to be better for a person to die with dignity and of his/her own choice, rather than be reduced to the terrible suffering and unhappiness that some terminal illnesses cause?

A: Suicide is an intrinsically evil act that no circumstance or situation or "good intention" could ever justify. We do not exist due to some action of our own. We are beings that were created by God. As such, it is God who has the ultimate dominion over our lives, not us.

In the words of the Holy Father, "In its deepest reality, suicide represents a rejection of God's absolute sovereigntey over life and death as proclaimed in the prayer of ancient Israel: 'You have power over life and death. You lead men down and raise them up again.'"

Suicide radically contradicts man's innate inclination to live. It involves the rejection of the true and necessary love of self, and it constitutes a refusal to accept one's role in society if that role is not to one's liking. Suicide is nothing more than a species of the sin of murder. It is "self-murder" and is always immoral. Furthermore, so-called assisted suicide or "mercy killing" is always evil. To "assist" at another person's suicide is nothing short of encouraging the other's despair. It represents a twisted distortion of mercy. We are called, rather, to show love and compassion and to stand, sometimes heroically, beside the sick and dying person until that moment when God calls him. We can neer hasten that moment without impinging on the very sovereignty and wisdom of God.

The Church recognizes that those who tragically take their own lives may very well be acting under social, emotional, and psychological duress. For this reason, their subjective guilt may have been lessened or even removed, even though the objective value of their act is always intrinsically wrong. We should offer our prayers for those who in their despair have taken their lives, and we should never lose hope in the mercy of God for the peaceful repose of their souls.

[JFG]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 08, 2002.

I would feel obligated to live if God made me. But the sad truth is "Man makes man" (with help from woman of course).

i guess i took an "evil" stance and said that hay.... i would have been better off not being born. So i decided to not have children myself. it was hard to admit that my life was pointless.... but its not.... i lived (suffered) so that my children won't ever have to.

Where is god in all this?

Well, we are God. We create life.

And as long as there is life....there will be suffering and there will be suicide.

I guess i wasn't born with an eye for the beauty of life. All I see is suffering. And it would be fine but.... If not for my parents doing it....i would not have ever had to live this (awful) life.

Suicide is nothing... the born man is already dead. The real key to ending all pain is to break the viscious (self-imposed) cycle of life and death with which man has been losing since the beginning.

Or in other words. Don't have kids if you don't want them to kill themsleves.

-- smileypie (cray@cs.com), December 11, 2002.

Dear Smiley,

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)

I will pray for you smiley because you need God in your life, I will pray that God will enter your heart, your soul and your mind.

I don't know if you own a Bible, Smiley, if you do please open it to Psalm 91. A verse from Psalm 91:

"He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Dear Blessed Virgin Mary, wrap your arms around Smiley, comfort Him, be His spiritual mother and pray for Him.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), December 11, 2002.

> "As a Catholic I am very pro-suicide." No, you are not a Catholic, because Catholics have to follow the teachings of the Church. Life is a gift from God, and it is God who decides when we leave this life.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), October 27, 2002.

Now I had it really with this bull , I never thought it has come this far !!!! __ I don't leave this forum , but my comments for the future will be harder , but not insulting !!!!

And , please , don't preach with quotations from bibles or any other writings or law about how you have to live !!!!

Gordon , what you're saying is pure nonsense !!!! __ why ??

WAKE UP & come back to reality

@ everyone:

Has anyone of you on this forum tryed to commit suicide , I guess not !!!! ___ Neither did I tryed , but a good friend of mine , he has tryed it a few times , by taking a whole bottle of pills , with a nive on his arms , even try to shot himself !!!!

7 years ago , I & 2 friends have seen a girl who tryed to commit suicide , in details , she was already hanging on the tree , you really gonna puke if you see such a thing , we did save her just in time !!!! __ Her boyfriend commited suicide a few months before !!!!

For now , she has a again a boyfriend and she's back positive about life !!!!

Anyway:

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 11, 2002.

Hi, Laurent

Christmas blessings to you, and Mom, and the rest of the family. Stay safe, and rember your guardian Angel.

When speaking about suicide, you said, ..... but a good friend of mine, he has tryed it a few times, by taking a whole bottle of pills, with a nive on his arms, even tried to shot himself."

Laurent it seems to me that your friend doesn't realy want to die. I think he might be looking for attention, and probably needs to get professional counseling. If he realy wanted to die it wouldn't be some many unsucessful attempts. Someone might fail once Laurent , but, if someone has a gun and wants to die it is realy not hard to do. I have known a few people that killed thereselves, and it only took one bullet in the head on the first attempt.

God bless Jimmy and Norma.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), December 11, 2002.

David , yep , what my friend did , was looking for attention !! __ PS , he was under the influence of drugs at that time !! __ But that girl don't , there is indeed a difference !!!! __ Even it can be a disease , here in my hometown , there is a family (also in generations) , some of them commit suicide on the most strange places !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 11, 2002.

Laurent,

Good to here from you. How are you doing? I hope you had a very nice thanksgiving.

Take care.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 11, 2002.

Ooops! should be... Good to hear from you.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 11, 2002.

Jake, I don't think Laurent celebrates Thanksgiving in Belgium. ;-)

-- David (David@excite.com), December 11, 2002.

I don't have nothing to complain & indeed I don't celebrate religious days

But anyway , I wish you the best !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 11, 2002.

You're right David. I forgot. Sorry if I offended you Laurent.

Oh, but Thanksgiving isn't really a "religious" day. What it celebrates is the thankfulness of the pilgrims toward the native Americans (who they later kicked out - hmmm). Anyway, the way I look at it, Thanksgiving is a great excuse to overeat and watch football (American that is) with the family.

Laurent, Did you hear the one about the guy who became an atheist? He converted to Christianity the next year, because there were no holidays! he, he, he!

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 12, 2002.

Jake , with all due respect , but religion & I , we shall never be together again , I REALLY left it for good !!

Jake , you don't have insulted or offended me not at all !!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh , a funny thing , a few days back , I was on the market place at the city near us , suddenly a guy said to me: "Can I ask you something ??" I said: "No problem dude" , He said : May I pray for you here on the streets ??" , well I said: "NO , because you are making a fool of yourself and also because I'm not religious and I'm even not interested" !! But he didn't stop !! __ But I asked him also a few question , and he said he didn't belief in religion to , but he believed in heaven & hell !! I said , that he lost his mind !! __ This guy really was a lunaticK escaped from the madhouse !!!! __ And you know what , the guy tryed this at EVERYONE !! __ Sorry to say , but what that guy did , was , is very stupid , it was like he was selling a faith and he picked really the wrong person , but I kept my politeness as usual and told him to go away , but he did NOT !!!! __ 1 Minute later , I did go away , lucky for him he didn't follow me !!!!

1> (I) never buy anything on the streets !!!!

2> also if someone ask (me) something , (I) really keep my/your eyes on my/your wallet !!!!

3> If you (really) don't trust someone , just walk away !!!!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 12, 2002.

Regarding the debate on suicide?

Does anyone think that the Church has become more generous to those have committed suicide?

I may be wrong, usually am :-), but wasn't the view years ago that people would go straight to hell if they committed suicide? Hasn't that view now changed?

-- Michael (michael_safc@hotmail.com), December 13, 2002.

Michael,

Years ago, one who committed suicide could not be given a Catholic funeral..at least the coffin was not allowed inside of the church.

That has all changed now.

Most people who commit suicide are not in the right state of mind. Only God can judge their hearts. People who are in a healthy state of mind don't kill themselves.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), December 13, 2002.

Absolutely. That I totally agree with. Thank you

-- Michael (michael_safc@hotmail.com), December 13, 2002.

This has to do with the Church's definition of mortal sin. The only thing that can keep us out of heaven is mortal sin. The Church teaches that for mortal sin to be committed, three criteria must ALL be met. (1) The act itself must be objectively seriously wrong. Obviously, suicide qualifies on that point. (2) The person who commits the act must be aware of the seriousness of the act. Here, a person may possess the factual knowledge, and yet may not be fully aware at the time of committing the act, due to his state of mental duress and confusion. And (3) he must give full rational consent of his will to commiting the act. It is doubtful that anyone considering the most irrational act of all - self destruction - is capable of giving full rational consent.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 13, 2002.

Ok...Ive been reading this site these past few days while doing a paper on suicide and the catholic views on them for my theology class. I am christian, while i may not be catholic, i still have great belief in God and everything. I'm also a teenager and in these days its hard to get through life. I have a very close friend i lost to suicide. I have the HARDEST time beliving that my dear friend Chrissie isnt in heaven, finally happy. How could God condem such a beautiful person? The very thought of that makes me sick. WHat if they didnt know any better?!?!! Maybe its not the right thing to do, but its not something to be condemed over! True, our life belongs to God but he also gave us freewill. Sometimes suffering is too much to handle. It's the madness of pens to paper, and razors to wrists that we are all united on this earth but each suffering to his or her own. I cant belive some of the things ive read on here. God is understanding and loves us no matter what. God isnt going to judge us in such a state of pain so critically. Have you people lost the meaning of LOVE? do you know what itslike to be alone? death may be the only escape. Im not saying suicide is ok because its terrible, but its my opinion that God isnt going to reject such loving people who made a decision to take their life. and i highly doubt He would shun someone in such pain. Maybe if you lost someone to suicide you'd know, or maybe if you have been in the situation where you have the knife on your wrist and you are praying for the courage to press down. Its a scary thing, and God can only grant us the courage to make it through, whether that means pushing on the blade, or pulling the trigger, or putting it down and getting help. Just an opinion of another mindless high schooler who im sure you all wont take seriously...

-- Kelli (Punk3star27@aol.com), January 06, 2003.

Dear Kelli,

I can imagine the pain you must feel, having lost your dear friend in this tragic way. The way you feel about the question of your friend's salvation is more in line with the teaching of the Catholic church than you might think. the Catholic Church teaches that there are spiritually deadly sins, which are called mortal sins, and other sins which are not spiritually deadly. This teaching comes directly from 1 John 5.

Mortal sin is the only thing that can keep a baptized Christian out of heaven, for it removes grace from the soul, and cuts us off spiritually from God. The Church further teaches that there are three specific requirements, ALL of which must be met in order for a sin to be mortal in nature. (1) the action itself must be objectively serious in nature; (2) The person who commits it must know that it is serious in nature; and (3) The person must nevertheless give full rational consent of his will to committing the action. Now, suicide does of course qualify on the first requirement. It is a gravely serious matter. On the second point, most people realize it is a serious matter, though some may not. On the third point however, it is highly unlikely that a person who is contemplating the most irrational act of all - self-destruction - is capable of giving informed, rational consent of his will. Just as a person who kills another while high on drugs is less culpable than a person who kills while fully conscious and aware of what he is doing ... so too, a person who is so profoundly distraught that he seeks to destroy himself is surely less culpable than one who kills while in a rational state. Therefore, while only God can make a final judgement about any individual's final salvation, the Church holds out great hope that your friend may indeed have been accepted into the Kingdom.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 06, 2003.

just an opinion... i dont think there is a hell.... many christians believe that if you are bad , you will go to hell.. i believe that our life IS our hell.. there really cant be anything worse than what we are living, if u think about it .. look at all the milestones we have to go through. there has to be something better at the end of it all. i myself am going through depression at the moment.. i have been councelled for bulimia for the past 6 months. and even through depression, i know that its not ALWAYS the best way. sure i feel VERY suicidal at times.. being in a depressed state of mind , i can feel depressed one hour and the next , i'm happy as larry.

suicide is for many different types of people. its for the strong, weak, uncapable, mentally disabled, young, elderly.....

suicide is only what u make of it . i have slit my wrists COUNTLESS times, then have realized what i have done... but i will go and do it again not more than 2 days later... why ??? because the depressed mind is not thinking straight.it has no concept of reality. it is like a person sky high on drugs... you can feel low , then feel happy instantly .. and vice versa. so is suicide selfishness??? in a way , no . selfishness if those people who want to keep the person living through pain.. on this earth. THAT is selfishness. am i selfish ... definately!! everyone is .

peace to all and have a cuppa

aussie chick

cass xxxx

-- cass (honeycut3@hotmail.com), January 10, 2003.

Hi, Cass.
I am sorry to read about your bouts of depression. I am praying for you to be healed of them. Please pray with me.
No, don't scoff at praying, because it can't make things worse, and I think you'll find that it will make things better.

I saw that you wrote these words:
"i dont think there is a hell... many christians believe that if you are bad, you will go to hell... i believe that our life IS our hell... there really cant be anything worse than what we are living, if u think about it ... look at all the milestones we have to go through. there has to be something better at the end of it all."

The first thing that I'd say is that we don't have to wonder whether there is a hell or not, because God has told us that there really is one. It's a place for souls to go, after death, if they have chosen that they don't want to be with God after this life.

[concluded below]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 11, 2003.

The second thing is that our life on Earth is not "hell," and there certainly can be something far "worse than what we are living" through. I say this for a good reasons. According to what you yourself told us, the pains of our lives are not constant. You sometimes are as "happy as larry." But in the real hell, the pain never lets up. There is ZERO happiness.

The third thing is that you were right to say this: "there has to be something better at the end of it all." And there is something better -- heaven, if you choose it. But there is also something far worse -- hell, if you choose it by your actions. Another reason that our life on Earth is not "hell" (as you thought) is that the real hell goes on forever into eternity. It has no end, but life on Earth, this "valley of tears," does come to an end. It is not eternal.

Cass, you were "with" me and Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament during adoration this morning.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 11, 2003.

well thanks john.. i dont see where u can believe that u can judge what i say as being right or wrong .... havent u seen dr.phil lately? episode on anger management..... :P :P :)

but thats just it .. ok sure i can be happy as larry sometimes .. but that doesnt mean my life doesnt suck like anything.

and my opinion is just that ... an opinion... so good day to you

have a cuppa :)

cass xxxx

-- cass (honeycut3@hotmail.com), January 13, 2003.

Dear Cass,

Obviously, you are hurting and angry. Depression is anger turned inwardly and it is dark and makes you feel so bad. Dark means absence of light and God is light...Satan is dark. Satan loves anything that is not of God - depression, suicide, anger, murder, and the list goes on and on.

I will keep you in my prayers, Cass that God help you and deliver you from depression because depression does not feel good, Cass. You can feel good again, you can feel joy, and you can lighten your burdens if you turn to God. You came to a Catholic forum for a reason, Cass and I hope you stay and vent if you must. We will listen to you and try to help you. In the meantime, I do hope you are seeking medical help. Medication can help you, along with therapy. I don't know if you are a churchgoer, but I do hope you reach out to the best therapist in the world - Jesus. He can touch you and heal you, Cass..he can direct you to the right path. Please don't give up on life. You can be healed from the pain you are feeling and I will pray that you are, dear Cass.

Love, MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 13, 2003.

thanks mary lu .... i really dont need to be on medication... well i probly do but i really dont want any docs knowing about it because they will sit and pick my brain to death. And i dont want then to do that ... i am just going to have to live crazy.

i AM a catholic.. i am not a practicing catholic, still i am a catholic. i went to catholic schools since i was 5. and i graduated in 2001. from a catholic school. i am not in any way against the catholic system but i do believe they have a LOT to answer for . esp. this carryings on with priests and young boys.

and i also believe that i do not have to go to a church to pray. god loves everyone no matter who they are and correct me if i'm wrong, jesus and the apostles went up on a hill to pray ... so i dont see why i have to go to a building and pray infront of a man (the priest) who is just like any other man.... theo nly difference is , he took vows.

dont get me wrong i do belive in god . i am NOT an athiest at all , but i belive i can pray where ever and HOW ever i wish.

good day to u all

have a cuppa

cass xxx

-- cass (honeycut3@hotmail.com), January 14, 2003.

Dear Cass,

You say you don't want to see any doctors, and you don't need medication..then you say, well maybe I do need medication.

Cass, why would you want to walk around confused and depressed when you can be helped? You may have a chemical imbalance that can be taken care of with medication, and, along with therapy to obtain awarenes as to what is actually bothering you deep down, can help you to become a happier person.

You can pray anywhere you want to pray, that is true. But, Cass, if you return to the church and receive the Sacraments, your whole life can change. Jesus gives us peace, strength and hope - yes, peace, despite the trials we are going through. He may not change your problems, Cass, but He will certainly give you the strength to deal with them. Healing for you can begin in the confessional..you can talk to the priest in there and it will remain confidential. Let the priest know how you feel about what is going on in the church..Please remember that there are 'good, holy, priests' in the church..not all priests are sexual abusers. It is very sad, indeed, what has taken place..but, hopefully we have seen the end of such horrible deeds.

I wish you would see a doctor, Cass..I don't know how old you are, but I do hate to see someone walking around so unhappy and so angry..life can be so much better for you, sweetheart.

I will keep you in my prayers. I will pray for you every day, Cass.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Dear Kiwi,

I am so sorry to hear that you are not receiving the Eucharist, but attending mass.

You 'may not be ready' to receive the Eucharist (probably because you feel 'unworthy' to receive? Am I right?) Well, I have news for you, Kiwi...Jesus is waiting for you and He is ready for you to receive Him. None of us, Kiwi, are 'worthy' to receive such a precious gift, it is a privilege given to us by Jesus himself who died on the cross for our sins.

Make a good confession, Kiwi, get 'it all out,' cleanse yourself, refresh yourself, renew yourself....and then receive the Body and Blood of Christ, Kiwi. I'm sure that He hates watching you sit there at mass and not receive Him. Believe me, Kiwi, He is waiting for you with open arms.

None of us are promised tomorrow, Kiwi, please don't wait until you are ready...DO IT NOW! I hate to see you miss out on such a precious gift from Our Lord. Worth???? Who is worthy, Kiwi? No one..believe me, Kiwi...no one.

God Bless you, my dear friend.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Kiwi,

Please don't leave the forum...we all have a right to be here.

I'm sorry if I sounded 'pushy.' I didn't mean to push you into something you are not ready for..I just wanted you to know that Jesus is ready and waiting for you. Remember this, Kiwi, there is nothing your priest did not hear in life and whatever you have to tell him, he has heard it all before, maybe even worse. Also, remember that Jesus came for people like you and me...sinners, yes, we are all sinners, Kiwi - even those who go to church seven days a week. You are familiar with the Bible story, The Prodigal Son? Jesus loves a repentent sinner and you would make Him so happy, Kiwi, if you receive him. Don't compare yourself with anyone else on this forum. Being Catholic, does not mean being 'perfect.' Being Catholic does not make anyone righteous. Jesus came to sit with the sinners, didn't He. He loved Mary Magdelene..and she was a prostitute. His apostles were drunkards, used foul language, they were a mess before Jesus came. Kiwi, it is people like you and me that Jesus died for. Jesus left his 99 sheep to go and find the one who was lost. Stop in church when you get a chance (for quiet time, when no one is there), sit in front of the tabernacle and just talk to Jesus...let him know everything that you are feeling, thinking, talk to him about your past..He already knows it all, but He likes to listen to your heart and your soul...likes to hear the sorrow in your heart....after your conversation with Him, you will be renewed and ready for confession. If you are uncomfortable going to your parish priest, go to another parish. Peace, Kiwi, peace...and remember, the church itself is a "hospital for sinners." No one inside that church is better than you or more worthy.

ML

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

it's me again, Kiwi.

Don't forget to speak to Our Lady too. She is the "Lady of Sorrows" and your spiritual mother. Mothers love to wrap their arms around their sons to comfort them and enourage them. Ask Our Lady to give you the courage to take that next step. She will intercede for you. She will hold you in her arms and comfort you and encourage you. You will make her so happy, Kiwi, that you want to receive her son again.

Remember what I said, "None of us are promised tomorrow." Try not to put it off for too long.

Your friend in Christ, MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Oh, Kiwi, Theresa and I will miss you so much...and so will Christine, Isabel and Carolyn, I'm sure.

"...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

So, you upset people sometimes...we all upset people sometimes...that is no reason to leave the people who enjoy what you have to say. Please think about it..take a break for a while, if you must, but do come back. May his soul rest in peace, but remember Fred?? That man upset more people on this forum and they upset him...happened all the time..he would take a break and come back. Unforuntately, he is gone from us now forever. But, those little bickerings added some flavor to the forum now and then. Too much sweetness can get a little boring.

Kiwi, remember these words: "Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which were many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.' Then he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven...Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (Luke 7:47-48,50)

Bye for now, Kiwi. I expect to see you back again!

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Hey Kiwi,

Come on over to the new site and visit with Jake, me, and Christine. I am Misty. Checkout Jakes thread here for his handle and Chrstine's.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Dear Kiwi,

I was headed off for sleep when something prompted me to check the forum. I hadn't even read this thread until today. Believe me, I've not been looking for a man-free forum. And I can tell you for a fact that you've not upset me here on the forum.

I can't think too straight here right now; I'm so tired, but I do know that I hope that you don't leave the forum. I will miss you. Take a break if you want to (I have before, and I came back with a new perspective). I truly hope that Mary Lu's words touch your heart (she speaks/writes so beautifully, a true gift).

Tell you what. I have adoration in the early am. I will be praying for you then, ok, that God will be with you in a very personal and profound way.

Carolyn

-- cksunshine (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), January 14, 2003.

I would like to pose a question here, I do believe in something, but do not consider myself to have a distinct faith, however I am not anti anyones belief, everybody has this right to belive in what they want. However I was once suicidal, and if God determines our life and eventual death, and is meant to be almighty, then why does he let his creations go through the sorts of things many people like me have gone through, without giving us the strength we needed to overcome them, I got through it with help from professionals not by any religious force, I just wondered what your views on this were and I hope I havent offended anyones beliefs as this was not the intended point, I havent a great deal of knowledge of religious teachings such as the bible and was wondering is this explained anywhere.

-- John Ford (fB34WRpKP@yahoo.com), May 01, 2003.

Dear John,

The problem of suffering is a question that has been dealt with for centuries, and addressed by some of the greatest minds of the Church. We know that God does not cause us to suffer, and does not want us to suffer. Yet, He allows us to suffer. That is the apparent enigma. If God is truly all-powerful, and if He truly does not wish us to be miserable in this life, then He should be able to simply prevent it. Shouldn't He? Not so. Being all-powerful does not mean "God can do anything". It means there is nothing He cannot do because of insufficient power; but there are things He cannot do for other reasons. One such thing is, God cannot contradict Himself, for everything He does is initially good and true, and to contradict what is good and true would therefore be evil and false. God has created human beings with genuine free will. That means that human beings can make moral decisions totally according to their own desires, free of divine control. It also means that human beings are thereby fully responsible for the results of the decisions they make. Many times, when something terrible happens, like the 9/11 tragedy for example, we hear people say "if there is a God (or if God is good), why didn't He prevent this?" He didn't because He couldn't. To do so would be to nullify the free will of the men who had decided to carry out that plan, and who alone were responsible for the results of that decision. And God has already proclaimed that men have free will, and can make their own decisons.

So, what does this have to do with the situation you described? Well, babies are not born with suicidal tendencies. People reach that state of mental and emotional desperation largely as a result of human decisions and human acts. Mental illness is a very complex issue certainly, with complex causes, but it is typically symptomatic of a damaged inner person, most often damaged by early, or even later abuse, neglect, ridicule, harrassment, etc. In other words, by human behaviors, not necessarily intended to cause lasting harm to another, but nevertheless having a profound effect on the formation and development of another person. Why didn't God intervene, and prevent this from happening? He couldn't. It would violate the free will of the persons who chose such damaging behaviors. And of course a person, once damaged by others in such ways, is all the more likely to make self-destructive decisions in his own life, decisions of his own free will, but profoundly influenced by earlier decisions of someone else's free will. We are all interconnected. The Bible says we are our brother's keeper. When we do a poor job of meeting that responsibility, our poor choices often have a ripple effect, eventually contributing to additional poor choices, some of them self- destructive, by others.

However, I do not believe though that God withholds help when we need it. God doesn't send us help just through overtly "religious" channels. The fact that you found the right professionals who were able to help you was God's gift to you. All healing comes from God ultimately, though He may dispense it through natural channels. The Bible tells us "No trial has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tested beyond what you are able to endure, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2003.