May I ask please due to limited net time if anyone is aware of alternative Catholic sites not so intense as this appears to be please?

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), October 30, 2002

Answers

Jean, Here is one www.Protestant.com. I think you would be happier somewhere closer to your protestant beliefs.

Five years later and you still didn't understand that the robot sends you e-mail?? You owe us an apology for your vulgar language.

-- - (.@....), October 30, 2002.

Jean,

I thought I gave you one a couple months ago. It was one I heard about on EWTN's Q&A where the poster stated it was too liberal and asked what she should do. I don't remember the forum but go search EWTN's Q&A.

I agree with the anonymous poster above. How about an apology to John for your personal email and one to the forum for taking God's name in vain yesterday.

God Bless.

P.S. I really don't want you to leave but to do as John said. Stick around and read. Hopefully, if you hear it enough, some of it will stick.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 30, 2002.

Jean,

I understand your concerns, here is an alternative site for you .

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 30, 2002.

Hey frank, lol what a whack job of a site. I read this on there:

"This is only my truth, and I believe there are as many paths to the One as there are people. For this reason, I invite you to share "your truth" with me and others by posting your thoughts about "What Is New Age?" on our bulletin board."

I thought it uniquely absurb that those who have different truths could agree upon the fact that the bulletin board itself actually existed on the internet.

But before I could absorb that thought, I suddenly doubted my own existence and lost my train of thought. =0

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 30, 2002.

Yikes, Emerald, that reminds me of a gal at our RCIA meeting last night who said, "What is God? God is the trees, the church, the sky, our families!!" Uggggh! PANTHEISM!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 30, 2002.

Uggggh! is right, Gail. I hope you set her straight. I'm so glad we have you on this site. And I'm equally glad that there are devout and orthodox Catholic's like you going through the RCIA. We need more people like you in those classes (teaching them!) and in our seminaries.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 30, 2002.

Was it the teacher, Gail, or a student? If a student, I could hang with that for a while; you know, I could show some patience. But a teacher would be another matter. Just about every one of the converts I know that went through the RCIA program ended up being students who were teaching the teacher and defending the Church against heresy instead of learning anything new.

I remember having to go through one of these classes for becoming a Godparent... I knew we were in trouble within five minutes of walking in the room. I was a nastier, meaner person back then than I am now (I think...) and we had this clown teaching outright heresy about Baptism and whatnot, and everyone in the class, not having had the Faith imparted to them properly in the past, were nodding their heads like an ocean of bobble-head dolls in agreement. So I flipped my lid and turn the place into a sea of dropped jaws. If I had to do it over again today, would I have done it? Ummm... yeah. Maybe with a little more grace. Our pre-cana experience was another world war. Maybe its me. =0

Ah, all is well that ends well.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 30, 2002.

Jake and Emerald -- you guys are great! Thanks for the encouragement. No, it was NOT the teacher, and our Priest is VERY orthodox. He's young and very devout. Thank goodness!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 30, 2002.

Here's an alternative forum. Pretty new, too.

-- SemperTrad (SemperTrad@aol.com), October 30, 2002.

Gail,

"What is God? God is the trees, the church, the sky, our families!!" Uggggh! PANTHEISM!

If someone asked you what is God, Gail, how would you answer the question? First of all, I would say, "Who is God?" not what is God.

But, is it really so wrong when the person said God is the sky, our families, the church, the trees??

God is everywhere and inside of everyone - God created the trees, the sky, families, the church. When I look at the sky, the ocean, the trees (especially in the autumn) and I see the beauty in all of these things, I see God's hand in all of it and I am grateful for the beauty he has provided for us in this world.

Perhaps that is what the girl meant when she responded that way. I think you are very jugemental of others, Gail and I do not think God would approve of that. Did you bother to ask this girl what she meant by her response and perhaps you could have opened up a dialogue.

Perhaps her answer disturbed you and others, but I doubt that God would object to what she said. I, too, believe that God is in every thing He created because only could God create such beauty. God is also in our hearts, especially when we are 'charitable' towards others.

We should never think we are above others in our faith or in any other way - in God's eyes we are all the same. I get the feeling, Gail, that you think you are one of God's elite Catholics - as far as I am concerned you have a long way to go to learn what God expects of us, what God is really about.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), October 31, 2002.

Dear ML,
Gail is correct and the best way to prove it is to see the words of Our Lord in the gospels.

Jesus never once referred to nature or you and me as the personification of the divine. He showered love on little children and yet He never equated them with His eternal Father.

Is that beacuse Jesus was too fundamentalist? To orthodox a Jew? Well, I believe it's because He knows His Father. He is the Son, and with the Father He personifies the Holy Spirit. Not trees, not mountains or any created thing. That would resemble a kind of pantheism/. Christ died on a cross, and nature was humbled before Him. The sky was darkened, and the earth trembled. He is eternally superior to nature. You mean well, praising Him for the wonders of His creation. But in the depths of your heart, remember who God truly is. Remember who Jesus is. He isn't a Mr. Rogers or a Barney the Dinosaur, a teddy bear. He is the great Judge and King who is coming soon. May He always bless and keep you, Mary Lu.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), October 31, 2002.

I kinda see both points:

MaryLu is right, and I apologies for being judgmental. It is quite possible that all this person wanted to do was show how God is magnified through his creation. Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord".

However, as we were not there, I trust Gail to have made the correct assessment of the person’s statement.

It isn't necessarily reading someone’s heart when you can hear their cynicism in their voice. Not even cynicism, but confusion or unknowing. If this person really believe that God WAS the trees and the family and the sky, as apposed to IN the trees and the family and the sky, then being at an RCIA class they should have corrected her. And when they corrected her, then she might have had the opportunity to defend her statement.

As the statement stands, strictly taking it in it’s literal form, it is an inaccurate statement, because God is NOT the trees or the sky or the family (creations). God may be IN his creations, but he is not his creations.

But, as MaryLu pointed out, without knowing really this persons intention, then we shouldn’t make her out to be “the evil one”. Rather, a learning one. And hopefully she learns the truth from the RCIA class she is in.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), October 31, 2002.

Dear Eugene,

I did not say that "nature or you and me personify the Divine." I said I see God's hand in nature; as only God can paint a sunset across the sky - no one else can do that. When I see the sun rise or set, it always makes me think of God and thank Him for it - that is what I meant.

I 'know' who God is and I know who His son is. I also know that He wants us to be charitable and kind to others, not judgemental. He is the judge, the only judge of our hearts, and our minds and it is very unkind and uncharitable to call people names, especially one who is in the learning stages of the catholic faith.

It is not our job to judge others for their beliefs. Our job is to 'plant the seed' and leave the growth up to God. This person is in a program where she will learn the truth - I hope everyone gives her a chance to blossom and grow in the faith.

I wasn't there, so I do not know exactly what took place. However, if a student is in a classroom and responds to a question with the wrong answer, a good teacher will provide the right answer. The person who said God is in nature is a student in the RCIA program and will learn as she goes along. I don't know how the instructor responded to her answer.

As I have said many times on this forum, I am not knowledgeable in the orthodox traditions. However, I do know without a doubt in my heart that God does not expect perfection from us, He does not expect us to be religious fanatics, what God wants from all of us is to be faithful to Him and kind and charitable to others. God wants to be in our hears, our minds and our souls. God wants us to be an example of His love and kindness to others - that is how we can bring people to Him - by our example of kindness and charitableness.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), October 31, 2002.

Dear Mary Lu,
Please think about the manner in which I signed off my last post to you. I expressed my wish for God to always be with you. If the upper part of that post seemed unfair, I beg your forgiveness. Your reply: I did not say that "nature or you and me personify the Divine." I said I see God's hand in nature; as only God can paint a sunset across the sky - no one else can do that. When I see the sun rise or set, it always makes me think of God and thank Him for it - that is what I meant.

This makes perfect sense to me, I feel much the same way about nature. I wasn't accusing you of a pantheistic outlook; merely placing things in Christ's own contexts.

''I 'know' who God is and I know who His son is. I also know that He wants us to be charitable and kind to others, not judgemental. He is the judge, the only judge of our hearts, and our minds and it is very unkind and uncharitable to call people names, especially one who is in the learning stages of the catholic faith.''

You say this and I'm happy with what you start out to say. But I didn't think Gail at least, was being judgmental or uncharitable. Her response to the RCIA instructor , not student was fairly accurate. He/she was wrong, defining God in that odd way. Jesus Christ didn't teach us His Father was anything of that sort. This is what Gail picked up on; a reaction I find natural enough. You castigated Gail, and then go on to say we shouldn't be judgmental. I think you owe Gail a short apology. Even so; I pray God be with you and love you always; as the fine person you clearly are.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), October 31, 2002.

Emerald,

I do not owe Gail an apology.

"No, it was NOT the teacher, and our Priest is VERY orthodox. He's young and very devout. Thank goodness!"

I wonder if the student will be allowed to continue in the very orthodox RCIA program or will she be thrown out?

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), October 31, 2002.

Well, you owe Emerald an apology;
But yes, I was off about the person who said that thing; God is the trees, the church, the sky, our families -- I should've read carefully before writing. But Gail was not treated fairly. Of that there's your own post as evidence. I think she'll forgive you, though. You don't have to be sorry if you don't want to.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), October 31, 2002.

Sorry, Emerald....I don't know how that happened....and sorry, Eugene, I should have addressed you.

I really don't understand what is so wrong with what the 'student' said. After all, she is a student who is in the process of learning and if her answer was so terrible and she truly thinks that way - and is not in line with the catholic way of thinking, then what is she doing in the class? Was she asked to leave? Was she told that the program is for orthodox catholics only? Was she told you are not allowed to have those kinds of thoughts as a catholic?

I truly don't understand. I suppose all of the orthodox catholics understand what upset Gail - cause I just don't.

If this girl is a new age person then she definitely does not belong in the RCIA class and I would like to know why she is there.

I was thinking of taking the RCIA progam, but would not survive it for one day - much too rigid for me.

I came on this forum hoping to find peace about my struggle with the catholic church, hoping there was something that would say this is where I belong, but my struggle continues and probably always will continue if it means that I must think one way and one way only - I cannot survive in a rigid, orthodox, environment and I thank God that He 'knows' me and knows my heart. He knows how much I love His son, but He also knows my spirit.

God bless all of you.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), October 31, 2002.

Mary Lu,
Please don't be sensitive over all the superficial argument found in these threads. You are a true, devout Catholic. No one takes that away from you. Every now and then, there is a minor counterargument of some sort. Some are too trivial to pursue for more than one or two posts. You shouldn't feel you're in a rigid or hostile environment when you come here. It's a friendy forum. Your views are definitely appreciated. It happens there are sometimes opposed views. We have to take what we can get.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 01, 2002.

Seeing God in all things;

God is present to us in many different ways. He is dwelling within us. He surrounds us with the beauty of His creation. His providential love accompanies us at every moment of the day. His power and presence become very apparent to us on many occasions. He is a transcendant God, but is also immanent. A frequent pause throughout the day will help us focus out attention on His abiding presence with us and within us.

May the God of the Universe bless you.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), November 01, 2002.

Jmj

Hi, MaryLu. I would like to help you, but I really have never been able to quit pin down what is bothering you so much.

You wrote: "I came on this forum hoping to find peace about my struggle with the catholic church ..."

Why do you have a "struggle"? I thought you once told us that you were a good friend of Cardinal O'Connor -- a very holy man and even more "orthodox Catholic" than any one of us here. Wouldn't knowing the great Cardinal convince you that Jesus founded the Catholic Church and that it is your home until the day you die? I just can't understand the "struggle." Is your faith weak? Do you disbelieve some of the Church's teachings? Or is it that you have to fight a constant temptation to break the Church's disciplinary rules? Do you want to become a better Catholic, or do you expect the Church to change -- to conform to your vision of a church? I really would like to understand.

You continued: "... my struggle continues and probably always will continue if it means that I must think one way and one way only."

No one says that we "must think one way and one way only." There are hundreds of different "spiritualities" within Catholicism. There are different rites by which people around the world (and even within the U.S.) worship. We have unity, but not uniformity within such a large Church. There is some room for diversity. Or, when you used the word "think," did you mean that you don't want to have to believe Church doctrines "one way and one way only"? Are you having trouble with some part of the Creed or with a less central teaching? Does the Church call a mortal sin some actions that you think are not sinful at all? I really would like to understand.

You then wrote: "I cannot survive in a rigid, orthodox, environment ...". Please realize, MaryLu that an "orthodox environment" need not be "rigid." As I mentioned above, we have lots of freedom -- within certain reasonable perimeters. As you drive on a mountain road, there is a guard rail. Some wild, free spirit might say that the rail ought not to be there -- that it is "rigid." But we know that the rail needs to be there to protect us from plunging down into the abyss. The Church gives us the "guard rails" of orthodoxy to protect us. We should be thankful for them, not resentful of them.

You concluded: "I thank God that He 'knows' me and knows my heart. He knows how much I love His son, but He also knows my spirit."

You said "but" God also knows your spirit? By this do you mean that you are struggling because you have a rebellious spirit? You love Jesus, but you find it hard to be a member of his Church, because you want to "do your own thing"? Is that it? I really would like to understand.

Oh, MaryLu I noticed that you asked Gail, "[I]s it really so wrong when the person said God is the sky, our families, the church, the trees?" The honest answer is, "Yes, it really is so wrong." As you later mentioned, God created all those things and they are in his presence. But he IS not those things (which is what the RCIA student said). As Gail mentioned, saying that "God IS the sky [etc]" is called Pantheism. This is an ancient pagan idea that was made part of the so-called New Age religion in the 20th century.

Many New Agers like to believe in a philosophy of Monism [all things are one] and a theology of Pantheism [all things are god]. But Catholics do not believe in either of those "-isms."
-- Objects, animals, angels, and people are not "all one." They are interrelated, but separate (with many individual, independent souls). -- All things do not comprise God. They could all disappear into thin air, and God would still exist. There is only one God, who is omni-present, yet exists outside his creation and sustains it in existence simply by his will. God is pure spirit, and he MUST exist -- but nothing that he made (including us) needs to exist at all.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 04, 2002.

Bravo, John;

I see every aspect of your post as cogent and powerful. You are a comfort to Mary Lu, without squashing her individuality. Thanks.

I also have great sympathy with Mary Lu. Her words,

''"I thank God that He 'knows' me and knows my heart. He knows how much I love His Son, but He also knows my spirit."

Are well-suited to a Catholic soul. If I could suggest one change, instead of wording it *He knows how much I love His Son, BUT-- it ought to be AND, He knows me and knows my heart.*

Love of Jesus Christ is conformable to our diverse and many personalities; we don't have to come out of the same cookie- cutter. His love is happy for all of us. (As long as we rejoice in Him!)

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 04, 2002.

Go, i

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 04, 2002.