Just wanted to break it out of that long thread.

sanctification: The divine act of making the believer actually holy --that is, bringing the person's moral condition into conformity with the legal status established in justification. - M. Erickson

justification: In the doctrine of salvation, the declaration that the human has been restored to a state of righteousness in God's sight. - M. Erickson

righteousness: The state of being just or morally pure, whether in one's own strength or on the basis of imputed virtue. - M. Erickson

order of salvation: [1]conversion, [2] regeneration, [3]justification, [4] sanctification - M. Erickson

conversion: The action of a person in turning to Christ. It includes repentance (renumciation of sin) and faith (acceptance of Christ). - M. Erickson

regeneration: The work of the Holy Spirit in creating a new life in the sinful person who repents and comes to believe in Christ. - M. Erickson

---------- [end]

I will take you through the order of salvation, given by, Millard Erickson to try to both answer your questions and give you what I believe happens to a sinner when they become a son of God.

-----conversion-----

I believe we are converted at the very moment we believe [not just believing God exist, but believing ON Him].

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It is a heart matter, and not just something someone says.

Ro 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

By putting our faith in Jesus Christ, that it is a gift of God that we CAN NOT earn.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

-----regeneration-----

As soon as we are converted, the Holy Spirit enters us and makes our DEAD spirit alive.

Ro 8:8-10 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The spirit and body of a person is "detached" at regeneration.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

-----justification-----

We are made just before God, because the blood of Jesus Christ covers our sin and has cleansed us.

Ac 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

-----sanctification-----

How are we sanctified?

1co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

It is by the Spirit working in us, not by our mere outwardly [good] actions. Because we are saved and the Spirit is working in us, we perform good works. It isn't to KEEP salvation.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

-----

Although our spirit has been made alive and our soul has been redeemed, our sinful flesh remains until Christ returns and changes it.

1co 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-----

I know this has been kind of lengthy, but I still didn't cover everything. But, we can see that we are regenerated, justified, sanctified, and total saved body-soul-spirit by Jesus Christ and not by ANYthing we do. --------------------

As for Eugene, since you don't believe Christ became sin for you:

2co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Col 2:13-15 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

****************************

Hey Bro Tim:

But here are some scriptures that HAVE TO BE RECONCILED.

Please see Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of his father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds."

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body; according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17 And if you address as Father the one who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth.

Not to mention the problem with James "We are not saved by faith alone." And Christ's other admonitions to 'pick up your cross daily,' 'lukewarm believers spued out of the Lord's mouth,' and His many other 'cost of discipleship' scriptures.

The Catholic view of justification takes ALL of these into account as well. Reformed theology only considers those scriptures that fits their scheme of things.

IF we are judged by an invisible 'cloak of righteousness' Christ seemed to be unaware of that. Because He never suggests such a thing.

We are regenerated at Baptism, and then we continue to be regenerated daily as we submit our wills to that of the Father. We COOPERATE with Him!

So here are my questions:

1) The Baptist position is that there is no REAL NEED for sanctification (at least with regard to salvation), since legally we stand righteous--? Yes or No. PLEASE

2) Is it the Baptist position that you do not NEED TO COOPERATE with God in order to obtain salvation? Could you please just answer the above questions YOURSELF! I don't want to have to interpret your interpreters.

3) Also, you never answered my question about what happens to the 'unsanctified believer' upon his death. Does he takes his carnal nature into heaven with him?

Gotta go,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 26, 2002

Answers

Gail, may I add another question to your list for Tim?

4) You wrote: "... we can see that we are regenerated, justified, sanctified, and total saved body-soul-spirit by Jesus Christ and not by ANYthing we do." Please explain why you reject human free will and consent/cooperation with God's grace. You see, it follows logically, from what I just quoted ...
(a) that whenever your process (regeneration, etc.) takes place, God must have forced it upon a person [who, you said, doesn't "do ANYthing"], and
(b) that whenever someone is not regenerated, etc., God must have wanted that person to be damned, since he withheld regeneration, etc. [and there is not ANYthing that the person can do about it].

It's obvious to me that your theology is fatally flawed. So, "back to the drawing board" for you, Tim! I suggest that you set your "drawing board" alongside the Catholic Catechism and take notes on what you read there.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 26, 2002.

Gail,

Matthew 16:27 - 2 Cor 5:10 - 1 Peter 1:17

If you will look at the context of these verses, they are all talking to SAVED people and not everybody in the world. The saved people will stand before the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST, and the unsaved [lost] will stand before the GREAT WHITE THRONE OF GOD - Rev 20.

"James "We are not saved by faith alone.""

I have addressed James before, if a person is truly saved, then the Holy Spirit and Christ is working in them and they WILL PERFORM GOOD WORKS. This means when a person claims to be saved, but acts like the heathen [not meaning perfect because we all sin, but outright rebellion against God] - they probably aren't really saved, and are liars.

"IF we are judged by an invisible 'cloak of righteousness' Christ seemed to be unaware of that. Because He never suggests such a thing."

Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1] "...there is no REAL NEED for sanctification (at least with regard to salvation), since legally we stand righteous--?"

Yes - "ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus"

It is the Holy Spirit and Christ working in us, not us - the thief on the cross didn't have time to DO anything but BELIEVE.

2] "Is it the Baptist position that you do not NEED TO COOPERATE with God in order to obtain salvation?"

It is counting on which Baptist you talk to - go a head a stick me with the [30,000 Protestant] knife again... :)

This could become a long long long post. Yes we cooperate, because the Spirit of God leads us. Let me just give you 3 things:

--- [A] Who did Christ die for? Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

--- [B] What are saved and unsaved people called? Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

The sheep go to Heaven [Mt 25:34], and the goats go to Hell [Mt 25:41].

--- [C] Since we are all sinners, then why does it never mention in Scripture the converting of a goat to a sheep?

This discussion could get DEEP, believe me, at first I didn't want to believe it - but I prayed and studied for months till God showed me the Truth.

3] "Also, you never answered my question about what happens to the 'unsanctified believer' upon his death. Does he takes his carnal nature into heaven with him?"

No, our sinful flesh, which is all that is left to be redeemed is changed by Christ BEFORE WE ENTER HEAVEN.

1co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I know I have probably created MORE questions by my answer to #2, but so be it.

------------

John,

4] "Please explain why you reject human free will and consent/cooperation with God's grace."

It's not that I TOTALLY reject human free will, but that I know what man does with his free will.

Ge 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that showeth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

Ro 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

---------

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ro 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If you are predestinated - you will be called.

If you are called - you will be justified.

If you are justified - you will be glorified.

-----

"that whenever someone is not regenerated, etc., God must have wanted that person to be damned, since he withheld regeneration, etc."

You miss understand the Scripture...

You can't look at it as Christ decided to sin some to Hell.

God made man perfect and ADAM CHOSE TO SIN. From then on out, we were all created sinners and the above verses prove we choose darkness over light.

Without the Spirit working in us, we would NEVER come to know Christ on our own.

So, we can say that God chose to save some, although we were ALL on our way to Hell.

The "drawing board" is VERY CLEAR when you read your Bible John, maybe you should take another look...

God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 26, 2002.

...sorry about the bold .

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 26, 2002.

Tim, you are just simply all over the place! I can't follow you. When you quote oodles of scripture I am still not sure how you are interpreting those scriptures.

Okay, so you are saying (I think) that:

1) We do participate in our salvation by accepting God's gift?

2) Christ will change us before we enter heaven?

3) You disagree with James when he says "ye are not saved by faith alone"?

4) Or you do agree with James as long as what James REALLY means is "we ARE saved by faith alone."

5) The pursuit of sanctification (or holiness) is NOT a requirement of a believer?

6) When Jesus says "If you love me you will keep my commandments" or "every branch that does not bear fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire," or if you are "lukewarm I will spue you out of my mouth," he was talking to non-believers who will go before the White Throne Judgment, and so they don't apply to us anyway?

Please can you just answer YES or NO?

Gail

P.S. In reading through your post I wasn't sure if I was picking up some Calvinist thought, i.e., God chooses and rejects whomever he wishes. In other words, there are those who are called (and they will be saved) and there are those NOT called (and they are damned).

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 26, 2002.

Gail,

I will out till Sunday, but I will reply to your questions. Good questions!

Have a GREAT Thanksgiving!!! God Bless!!!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 27, 2002.

^

-- ^ (^@^.^), November 30, 2002.

Gail,

Sorry, that "I am all over the place". I will try to answer your question direct, with Scripture to provide reason for my answers. My answer mean nothing without Scripture.

1] "We do participate in our salvation by accepting God's gift?" - YES.

To a point. We don't not "accept" the gift of God because we just decide one day out of the blue that we need to come to God.

----- Man does not search for God on his own:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

----- Christ had to seek us [Believers]:

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

----- The Holy Spirit MUST lead someone to salvation, in the acknowledgment that they are a sinner and need Christ:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

----- Remember Ephesians 2:8 (it is the gift of God) - so God must work in us to draw us to both Christ and Him.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

2] "Christ will change us before we enter heaven?" - YES.

Corinthians I 15:51-57 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

3 & 4] "You disagree with James when he says 'ye are not saved by faith alone'?" - NO.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

----- If you say you have faith but do not have works, you are a liar.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

----- Again, if works does no accompany faith, then you don't have true faith.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

----- Faith is shown [or proven] to others by your works.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

----- Faith is proven by our works. It both brings us closer to God, and proves to others that God is working in us.

James 2:23-24 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

----- Notice it does not say "by works a man is saved". To say you have faith in God, but DO NOT live as such - makes you a liar, and you truly do not have faith. To have faith [saving faith], one must act upon that faith. True faith is brought about when one acts upon what they claim they believe.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

----- With faith comes works [Because of the new Spirit inside of us] - not the other way around.

--

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

----- We perform good works, because it PROVES Christ is working in us! We DO NOT do them because of ourselves.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

----- The one that has saved us [begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ]. We won't perform the good works in and of ourselves, but the one who has saved us will perform the works in us and through us.

5] "The pursuit of sanctification (or holiness) is NOT a requirement of a believer?" - IT IS.

We are saved the very moment that we accept Jesus Christ as our Personal Saviour, and it is the Spirit which works in us to sanctify us fully.

Acts 26:17-18 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Corinthians I 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Corinthians I 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Corinthians I 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Thessalonians II 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Hebrews 2:10-11 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

----- So, I ask you, how are we santified? By our mere works, or is it by the blood of Jesus Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit in us? IT IS ALWAYS THE WORK OF GOD, and not man. That is why we can appear perfect before a Holy Creator!

6] "When Jesus says 'If you love me you will keep my commandments' or 'every branch that does not bear fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire', or if you are 'lukewarm I will spue you out of my mouth", he was talking to non-believers who will go before the White Throne Judgment, and so they don't apply to us anyway?" - LET'S SEE.

- John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

----- How will be do this? Christ has given us the Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

- John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:2-4 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

----- Pay close attention to the wording:

John 15:6 - a man abide not in me - cast into the fire

John 15:2 - branch in me - says taken away, but not cast into the fire

- Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Revelation 3:15-20 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

----- These people aren't even saved; they haven't repented, and Christ tells them to open the door of their hearts to him.

As for your "I wasn't sure if I was picking up some Calvinist thought, i.e., God chooses and rejects whomever he wishes."

You are mistaken if this teaching. I would perfer to consider myself as a Bible Believer, and not necessarily a Calvinist [just because I haven't look at all they believe to say I believe CALVINIST 100%]. But, the doctrine of election is CLEARLY taught throughout the Scripture. You can see it in the verses of my last post and this one. It is not that God accepts some and rejects some. Think about it:

- We all deserve Hell, and we do not seek after God.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

- So, we were all rejecting God - he wasn't rejecting us. But, through His grace and mercy He CHOSE to saved some from Hell. Why? Because He is merciful. If He didn't pull some out of sin, they ALL MANKIND would spend eternity in HELL.

Read the verses contained in this post, and just think about it...

God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 02, 2002.

run away bold again...

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 02, 2002.

Hi Tim, I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.

I still AM quite perplexed by your arguments.

Catholics do NOT believe they are saved by works alone. It seems you keep setting up this straw man and then knocking him down.

You say that we are saved by faith alone as long as the faith INCLUDES works. GREAT! That's what Catholics believe! But that really is not what the Reformers meant by "faith alone."

You say we DO participate in our salvation by 'responding' to the gospel. GREAT! That's what Catholics believe -- We cooperate with God's grace moving us towards Him. Again, though, that is not what the Reformers believe. They believe FAITH, completely by and of itself, independently, with no action required whatsoever.

I'm still not sure what your Calvinist leanings are. Are you Calvinist or Arminian? I thought Baptists were Arminian, i.e., believing that man has the freewill to choose the gift God offers, whereas Calvinists believe if you are chosen, you are chosen. Hence, a person can never be certain their son or daughter for whom they pray night and day is one of the CHOSEN!

Well, I've got to go to work.

Later Bro Tim,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 03, 2002.

"My answer mean nothing without Scripture."

Actually, your answers - all our answers - mean nothing even WITH Scripture. Becuase any con can grab a couple passages and use them to prove a point contrary to what they really mean. It is Scripture with the Correct interpretation that means something. And the only place you can trust to find the correct interpretation is the Teachings of the Catholic Church, right where the Apostles left them.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 03, 2002.

You're correct, Jake;
Even if in some particular Bible passages a plain meaning is discernable, many non-Catholics dispute the true meaning. Not because the Holy Spirit offered them a truer, better meaning, but because their strong bias against ''Rome'' evidently disqualifies a meaning (no matter how obvious) supporting Catholicism.

I've once or twice denounced and bemoaned this unholy practice of bending the scriptures and the very WORDS of Christ; to fit a sectarian agenda. The agenda: Discredit all Catholic doctrine.

It should be clear and simple to Tim, and other protestants who favor sola scriptura; David Koresh, Jim Jones, and other false prophets read and preached from the Holy Bible, King James II edition; and they made faithful followers who adhered to a false interpretation.

This can happen in any sect, any denomination. But not in the Church of the holy apostles, the Catholic Church founded by Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 03, 2002.

Gail,

I realize that Catholics do not believe that they are saved by works alone, but they do believe that they are required to remained saved [or at least it seems that way].

I am not saying that "we are saved by faith alone as long as the faith INCLUDES works". I am saying that we are saved by faith ALONE. Because we have faith and the Holy Spirit working in us [because we are Born Again sons of God], we will perform good works - but the good works DO NOT in ANY WAY keep us saved or secure our salvation. The blood of Jesus Christ secures our salvation, which is a work of Jesus Christ and not a work of man. Our "good" works [fruit shall we say] is a proof to the world, as the gifts given to the Apostles, that we are saved and not a proof to God that we deserve salvation or a proof to secure our salvation.

"We cooperate with God's grace moving us towards Him" because of the Holy Spirit and Christ working in us. Remember, before the Holy Spirit came in us and Jesus Christ started working in our lives after we received salvation - we loved darkness rather than light and we did not seek God.

I say "we DO participate in our salvation by 'responding' to the gospel" because we have been called by God and the Spirit of God moves us to accept Him. We do not choose God in and of ourselves. The Holy Spirit leads us to repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. If the Spirit of God does not lead you, you will not come to God.

Well, to seperate me into either a Calvinist or an Arminian? I would be considered a Calvinist. I do believe that ALL MEN are on their way to Hell and not search for God. Therefore [the gift of God] God has chosen to reveal Himself to some by the working of the Holy Spirit and save them by the blood of Jesus Christ. Does this mean that He has rejected the others? No. On the contrary ALL have rejected Him, so he as CHOSEN to give the FREE GIFT to some.

You are correct that some Baptist believe "that man has the freewill to choose the gift God offers", but not all. I am not really sure about the percentage... That really wasn't important when I spent months praying and study the Scriptures. Of course this can just go down into the same ole' song and dance I get almost every post - "That is why there are 30,000 blah blah blah". When I talk to Catholics, they don't all believe the same thing either. True, the Church may have a set of rules [shall we say] toward what they believe, but that doesn't mean ALL Catholics believe them.

Baptist as a rule [early on] said that women couldn't be preachers, they wouldn't dance, and they wouldn't drink wine and such - so why are their "Baptist" that do so today?

You claim, "a person can never be certain their son or daughter for whom they pray night and day is one of the CHOSEN!"

I add 2 things.

1] Can you be CERTAIN [right now] that you are going to heaven when you die? By what you claim, it is only if you keep living right, so you can't be CERTAIN, because you may change tomorrow or the next day.

2] Can you be CERTAIN that your mother, if she didn't go to church [which I don't know, this is just an example], would not go to heaven and/or would go to Hell?

Only God knows the hearts of men, and He is the judge. If we are saved [washed in the blood of Jesus Christ] WE WILL go to heaven when we die, no matter how perfect we are now - even though the Spirit is leading us to be more like Christ. And if we are not saved [not washed in the blood of Christ] we will go to Hell when we die.

---------------

Jake,

"Actually, your answers - all our answers - mean nothing even WITH Scripture. Because any can can grab a couple of passages and use them to prove a point contrary to what they really mean."

It is clear that you have put 100% faith in the Catholic Theology of Scripture - because you believe that you and I can not hear from the Spirit of God unless it agrees 100% with Catholic Teaching. So, you believe that the Catholic Church, regardless if you or I can understand what they write, or if it doesn't SEEM to match up with Scripture - we are just to agree with it, because it is the only thing in this world that we can trust??????

Where did the Apostles put their trust? Where did Moses put his trust? Where did Noah put his trust? Where did Job put his trust? Where did David put his trust? Elijah? Elisah? etc...

---------------

Eugene,

One more time, I will say, everyone listening: I do not disagree with Roman Catholicism because it is Catholicism. I disagree with some of the Catholic teachings because I do not believe they are Scripturally correct.

I realize that you do, but I don't - that is why I [personally] disagree, not because they are Catholic teachings.

Granted, I have heard of some religions [can't remember off hand] that denie the Trinity, just because Catholics teach it - that is the MOST UNspiritual teaching I have ever heard. We should believe and not believe because of Scripture - NOT - because of who or what is teaching it.

Since you would like to compare me to David Koresh, Jim Jones, and other false prophets - should I compare you and/or all Catholics and/or all priest to the ones that are sexually abusing children?

I wouldn't do that.

Which Catholic Church? [1054] the Eastern or Western wings Roman Catholic Church?

--

God Bless you all!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 05, 2002.

Tim, thank you for responding (and without throwing zillions of scriptures at us). I still can't get over a Calvinist/Baptist. I didn't know there was such a thing!

I know others better equipped can answer this but Eastern/Western Roman Catholocism do have the same beliefs, just some different practices, or disciplines. (Not a fair comparison to Protestantism).

Yes we are saved by faith in Jesus when we DO something. That "do" is an action, i.e., a "work" That is why I was confused by your earlier answer. I think it might help you if we defined "works." You may perhaps be thinking of 'dead works' not living acts of obedience, which is what WE mean by 'works.'

Tim, if you say "faith alone" then that does not even require the first action of a believer. That is what Lutherans today believe, faith ALONE, not even REQUIRING THE "I DO" on the part of the believer. Which is completely incomprehensible to me!

Eugene's point to you concerning Jim Jones, Koresh, etc., may seem outlandish and unfair -- and we certainly hope you never go down that road -- but the premise of his statement is not unfounded. There are many many false teachers (many can be seen on TBN) who have amassed great crowds of followers, who are misleading millions. There is no authority over them for which they answer, no hierarchy to answer to. They may have even started off on the right track, but got totally lost along the way and are taking so many unsuspecting people with them. That is the VERY GREAT problem with Protestantism -- there really is NO authority. They can all prove their heresies with scripture! Twisted, though it may be.

Gotta go,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 05, 2002.

Dear Tim, I will be very respectful. A few questions. 1- Who put the bible together, and decided on the books to be used? 2-Who kept these books together for 1200 years? 3-Where in the bible does it say"Sola Scriptura"? As the Apostle said, "Many other things did Jesus say, and do, which are not written in these books". The Catholic church must have been doing a few things right. Again I apologize. God bless.

-- ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), December 06, 2002.

“Therefore [the gift of God] God has chosen to reveal Himself to some by the working of the Holy Spirit and save them by the blood of Jesus Christ.”

So, Christ died for only SOME people? Not so Tim. Jesus died that ALL might be saved.

“ Does this mean that He has rejected the others? No. On the contrary ALL have rejected Him, so he as CHOSEN to give the FREE GIFT to some.”

Why would a JUST and LOVING God only give the free gift to some. This is a very heretical notion. Christ has given us ALL His free gift. We, with our free will, can either accept it or reject it. It has nothing to do with God “choosing” someone to be saved and someone to be damned. This is our doing.

“When I talk to Catholics, they don't all believe the same thing either. True, the Church may have a set of rules [shall we say] toward what they believe, but that doesn't mean ALL Catholics believe them.”

This is a misconception. If you talk to “Catholics” that do not abide in the Teachings of Christ, found in the Catholic Church, then they really shouldn’t be considered “Catholic”. Catholic at its very root means universal, and there is nothing universal about disagreement.

“Baptist as a rule [early on] said that women couldn't be preachers, they wouldn't dance, and they wouldn't drink wine and such - so why are their "Baptist" that do so today?”

Why? Because they’ve changed their minds. There is no set documentation or historical evidence of how the Apostles behaved (at least not for the Baptists), and therefore when a new pastor finds something Biblical that he can base his ideas upon, then they are free to change their minds and beliefs accordingly. The Catholic Church on the other hand has never changed it’s beliefs. It has developed beliefs more fully with time and Spiritual guidance, but the Teachings of Christ given to the Apostles is what we have, do, and will base our practices and teachings on.

“It is clear that you have put 100% faith in the Catholic Theology of Scripture - because you believe that you and I can not hear from the Spirit of God unless it agrees 100% with Catholic Teaching.”

Tim, again, you are trying to twist our belief to make it look like we trust in “man”. Jesus promised the Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail against her! AND Christ told the Apostles that the Spirit of Truth would lead them to ALL Truth and would be with them till the end of time. I put my faith in JESUS, and therefore I put my faith in His Church! Not the other way around. The Holy Spirit (you should agree) has taught the Apostles all there was to know. These teachings have been safeguarded, as promised, in the Catholic Church. Therefore, if the Spirit reveals something to me, it HAS to be the same as what He revealed to the Apostles. If it is NOT then, either the Holy Spirit revealed something to me and not the Apostles, or the Holy Spirit revealed something to the Apostles which he hadn’t to me. I think that the former is more accurate. Therefore, if there is something that I see in Scripture that I do not understand, or that I have (individually) lead myself to believe, the sure way of knowing the correct interpretation of that passage is to see what the Church says about it.

“So, you believe that the Catholic Church, regardless if you or I can understand what they write, or if it doesn't SEEM to match up with Scripture - we are just to agree with it, because it is the only thing in this world that we can trust??????”

Yes, the Catholic Church IS the only thing in THIS world that we can trust. Why? Because Christ told us that the Church is the only thing we can trust! He said the people of this world cannot receive the Spirit, because they do not know the Spirit. The Apostles knew the Spirit, and they were commissioned to organize and protect His Church! Therefore, the only SURE place where the Spirit is KNOWN is within the Catholic Church. Yah, you may say that there are people outside the Church who KNOW the Spirit, but then it is just a guessing game. Inside the Church it is for sure!

“Where did the Apostles put their trust? Where did Moses put his trust? Where did Noah put his trust? Where did Job put his trust? Where did David put his trust? Elijah? Elisah? etc...”

They put their trust in God, and believed in His promises. We too put our trust in God and believe in His promise to us. He promised us His Church! Note, however, that the Apostles, Moses, Noah, Job, David, etc. all had physical and tangible evidence of God. They were able to physically and substantially prove that they were the servants of God to others. They could prove unequivocally that they were not merely self proclaimed prophets (like Protestant ministers). Moses threw down his staff and it became a serpent! He also placed his offering on the alter and flames came down from heaven to consume it, and not the others. Noah didn’t have to prove much, all his adversaries died! Job never taught anything, and I don’t think he was a prophet so he doesn’t really fit into this. However, Job put his faith in God and he followed the Mosaic Law (which was the Law prior to the NT Catholic “law”). David was promised to rule, and that was a well known fact among the Israelites! His physical proof was his father, and his fathers father, who had both physically proven that God was with them. Elijah, Elisha, etc. Same thing. Prior to Christ, and Christ’s Church God kept His sheep together with the Prophets. And the Prophets were never self proclaimed teachers. They always had physical and unquestionable evidence that they were working for God. Once Christ came, He was the Physical evidence, and when He left He sent His Spirit to reside in His Church, which is His physical evidence to us. You see, Tim, God knows how we are. And He knows that if we don’t have a physical earthly authority, we will be scattered. And this is apparent by the fact that the Protestants, who do not have a physical earthy authority, cannot make up their mind about their beliefs.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 06, 2002.

Yes, "God desires all men to come to repentence." Just because He knows who they will be because He is omniscient, does not mean that He "ordains" some and not others.

Gotta run,

Gail

-- gAIL (rothfarms@socket.net), December 06, 2002.

Tim,
Would you explain the following words:

''I do not disagree with Roman Catholicism because it is Catholicism. I disagree with some of the Catholic teachings because I do not believe theyre scipturally correct.'' --Isn't that the precise point you're avoiding, about reliance on private interpretation? You don't believe they're scripturally correct !''

Not any more than Jim Jones or David Koresh would've cared for your ''correct'' interpretation.

Maybe it's a coincidence that key passages in scripture, which absolutely bear out the Church's claim to our fidelity are passed over by non-Cathoics? Like the confession of Saint Peter, ''the keys to the kingdom of heaven,'' and John 6:54, ''Eat my flesh, drink my blood,'' and all the Last Supper narrative, ''My body, My blood'' bearing directly on the doctrine of the Holy Eucharist; every one of these plainly worded passages support Catholic theology, Christology, and the primacy of Peter, plus Christ's ordination of the Papacy-- But you won't have them do it! That would be self-defeating. Instead, you'll claim we're ''scripturally incorrect''.

I'll repeat my premise, about your interpretations of scripture, Tim: ''. . . in some particular Bible passages a plain meaning is discernable, and non- Catholics dispute the true meaning. Not because the Holy Spirit offered them a truer, better meaning, but because their obvious bias against ''Rome'' has to disqualify a meaning (no matter how clear) supporting the Catholic faith.''

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 06, 2002.

oh well.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 06, 2002.

Gail,

-- "Tim, if you say "faith alone" then that does not even require the first action of a believer. That is what Lutherans today believe, faith ALONE, not even REQUIRING THE "I DO" on the part of the believer. Which is completely incomprehensible to me!"

Let me say this, and hope this explains it.

When a person is unsaved - they are without the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit starts to work on the individual - He shows the individual they are a sinner and that they need Jesus Christ.

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So, are we saved at the moment the Spirit changes our heart to understand or the moment our "mouth" moves? You can't say you accept Christ unless your heart has already done so.

----------------

ed Richards

-- "Dear Tim, I will be very respectful. A few questions. 1- Who put the bible together, and decided on the books to be used? 2-Who kept these books together for 1200 years?"

Was it only Catholics? I don't think so.

-- "3-Where in the bible does it say"Sola Scriptura"?"

Show me in the Bible where it says, if you can't find it in the Scriptures you must believe the traditions.

-------------

Jake,

-- "So, Christ died for only SOME people? Not so Tim. Jesus died that ALL might be saved."

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Is everyone in the world a sheep?

Then He adds...

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And that one shepherd is Jesus Christ, not the Catholic Church nor the pope.

-- "Why would a JUST and LOVING God only give the free gift to some."

Why didn't He send us ALL to Hell?

-- "Jesus promised the Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail against her!"

That is correct. The Church is made of the individual SAVED people, and Hell CAN NOT get them [us] because WE ARE ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED. Because once we are in Christ, we CAN NOT get out.

1co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

-------------

Gail,

-- "Yes, "God desires all men to come to repentence." Just because He knows who they will be because He is omniscient, does not mean that He "ordains" some and not others."

1co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

-- Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

------------------

eugene c. chavez

All I can say to your post is that, if you believe taking 1 verse out of a complete chapter is justified in coming to a meaning so be it. I perfer to search the Scripture and read the entire chapter.

-----------

Later, Have a good weekend!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 07, 2002.

-- (top@top.top), December 09, 2002.

"So, Christ died for only SOME people? Not so Tim. Jesus died that ALL might be saved." Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. Is everyone in the world a sheep?”

Yes! We have to potential to either choose to be apart of his fold, or the evil ones fold.

“Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. And that one shepherd is Jesus Christ, not the Catholic Church nor the pope.”

Jesus Christ is the ONE Shepherd. However, as He gave the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter, He gave the responsibility of the fold to His Church. Therefore, while Jesus is Our Shepherd, the Church has been given, by the Shepherd, the authority to protect and guide His Teachings.

"Jesus promised the Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail against her!" That is correct. The Church is made of the individual SAVED people, and Hell CAN NOT get them [us] because WE ARE ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED. Because once we are in Christ, we CAN NOT get out.”

Though it is true that satan cannot prevail against us if we are with Christ, that was not the context of this passage. The Church Christ was referring to was the Body of Beliefs and Teachings that He was establishing with His Apostles. Therefore, we must take this passage to refer not to the SAVED INDIVIDUAL, but rather the Church of Christ (which consists of His everlasting WORD). “1co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

Now Jesus is talking about the individual, as apposed to the Church.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 09, 2002.

Jake,

-- "Yes! We have to potential to either choose to be apart of his fold, or the evil ones fold."

If we are all sheep, then how do we become a goat?

[NAB] Matthew 25:32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd seperates the sheep from the goats.

The Bible NEVER claims that a goat becomes a sheep or a sheep becomes a goat. So, how are we ALL sheep?

Let me give you a few more verses concerning if it is man's choice or Gods.

[NAB] John 6:65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is [granted him] by my father."

KJV [given unto him]

[NAB] Romans 9:11 befoe they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue 12 not by works but by his call - she was told, "The older shall serve the younger"

[KJV] Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Explain this verse to me?

"Though it is true that satan cannot prevail against us if we are with Christ, that was not the context of this passage. The Church Christ was referring to was the Body of Beliefs and Teachings that He was establishing with His Apostles."

So, is there are 2 Churchs of Christ in the Bible?

-- 1co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” "Now Jesus is talking about the individual, as apposed to the Church."

[NAB] 1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been purchased at a price.

So, if we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and NOT OUR OWN, because we have been "purchased at a price". Then how can we unsave ourselves, and turn away from God and return to the Devil?

I'm glad you are still talking... God Bless!

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 09, 2002.

to me that is... :)

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), December 09, 2002.

“If we are all sheep, then how do we become a goat?”

We become a goat by rejecting Christ. Goats and sheep are metaphors of our state of acceptance of Christ. They shouldn’t be taken to mean our eternal and unchanging status of character.

“[NAB] Matthew 25:32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd seperates the sheep from the goats. The Bible NEVER claims that a goat becomes a sheep or a sheep becomes a goat. So, how are we ALL sheep?”

The Bible never says that we cannot become goats if we are sheep. These are metaphors, Tim – in case you didn’t know. We are all sheep (metaphorically speaking)! We can stray, and become stray sheep that will be brought back to the fold. Or we can become the goats, stubborn in our ways until the end. We have to remember that these are all metaphors. That is to say – we are not really sheep, or goats, or vipers, or wolves, etc! We can, however, be likened to sheep, who stray, need a shepherd, etc. Some people, who may have in the past been able to be compared to sheep, might now better be compared to goats. You see what I mean? Christ wasn’t making a statement of our eternal character. He was talking about how our current characters can be compared to sheep, goats. John calls certain people vipers. But that isn’t to say that they could repent and then be likened to tender sheep!

“Let me give you a few more verses concerning if it is man's choice or Gods. [NAB] John 6:65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is [granted him] by my father." KJV [given unto him]”

If we read within the context, we will note: “unless it is granted [or given to him] by my father. Something can be either “granted” out of sheer generosity, OR because someone requests it. Therefore, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the Father is the one that chooses those who will follow Jesus! “Ask and you shall receive”. We are ALL called by God, it is up to us to want to be followers. How else do you explain FREE will? Or are you saying that we really don’t have a FREE will? You’re saying that God pre selects goats and sheep. Is that a just God? Look at it this way, Tim. I want to be a follower of Jesus, does that mean if I was not chosen in the first place I cannot be? NO! But because it must be “granted by the Father” first, this means that my initial desire to follow Jesus must be PRECEDED by God the Father’s grace to pursue His Son.

John 14: Jesus said to him, "I am (6) the way, and (7) the truth, and (8) the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

So, we see now, that it is God who calls us ALL, then it is our initial desire (out of our Free will), the Father then because He had initially Called us ALL gives us (the ones who choose Him) grace to pursue His Son, then we follow His Son, and it is through the Son that we come to the Father!

“[NAB] Romans 9:11 befoe they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God's elective plan might continue 12 not by works but by his call - she was told, "The older shall serve the younger"

“[KJV] Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) Explain this verse to me?”

Well first lets note: “by his CALL”. CALL indicates a choice, not a set position (goat or sheep). A call can be either accepted (in which case we can be compared to sheep), or rejected (in which case we then can be compared to goats).

Second: This passage is referring to a specific case! Jacob and Esau! It also said, “13 Just as it is written, "(28) JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." Did God (who is incapable of Hate) really “Hate” Esau before he did anything bad? NO! God hated the actions of Esau because he sold his birth right to Jacob, which was a free will choice! God didn’t elect Jacob over Esau, which would make them operate without free will. God knew prior to the actions that they would freely choose their positions, but this doesn’t mean they had no free choice. On the contrary, it could have easily been Esau that chose to have his fathers blessing! God knows our actions before we are even born; yet this doesn’t take away His CALLING to us all. I might see from a distance someone going to jump off a bridge. My knowledge of what he will do in no way impedes his decision in doing it. God respects our free will, and although He knows what we will choose, God didn’t elect us to do it!

“"Though it is true that satan cannot prevail against us if we are with Christ, that was not the context of this passage. The Church Christ was referring to was the Body of Beliefs and Teachings that He was establishing with His Apostles."

So, is there are 2 Churchs of Christ in the Bible?

-- 1co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” "Now Jesus is talking about the individual, as apposed to the Church." [NAB] 1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been purchased at a price. So, if we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and NOT OUR OWN, because we have been "purchased at a price". Then how can we unsave ourselves, and turn away from God and return to the Devil?”

First of all, you asked if there were 2 Churches. I presume you ask this because God refers to our bodies as Temples of the Holy Spirit. A “Temple” isn’t a Church. A Church (capital C) is a Body of Believers, who believe in the SAME thing and are of ONE MIND and ONE HEART. Christ’s desire was that there would be ONE Body of Believers, who were taught what Christ taught by the Apostles and their successors. There is only ONE Church Christ refers to in the Bible, and that ONE Church is the very same Catholic Church we have today. It is a Church, which is of ONE Mind and One Heart, which hold the SAME beliefs as the Apostles!

To your second statement, if we are not our own, then how can we unsave ourselves: Good question! Look around though and know that it is happening! Tim, we are not our own, we are God’s, but this doesn’t mean that we can trash ourselves! Are we not all God’s Tim? Were we not all created by Him? It is true that we are! But if this necessitates salvation, then who could go to hell!? Christ says we are a temple of the Holy Spirit! So, since we are a temple of the Holy Spirit we must not destroy ourselves! He never says what you are trying to say, “once you are saved, don’t worry because there is nothing more that you need to do.” If it was that easy, then why even follow the commandments anymore? If you are saved and cannot be “unsaved” then is there really anything you have to do (or not due). Why not just go on a pleasure rampage and rape and pillage and eat all you want, etc. Since you are saved and cannot be unsaved. Tim, we are ALL given the gift of salvation. But in order to reap the benefits of Christ’s death we must abide in Him and He in us. We MUST follow His Commandments; do as He did! If we are likened to sheep – who can go astray, then how is it that a stray sheep (who was once a part of the fold…i.e. saved) can be now unsaved? Tim, so, it is my understanding that you think that we are pre- selected to either be saved or damned. Is this true? Then why should anyone try!? Or do you think that it is those who do the will of God that are saved, but that they do the will of God not because the want to but because the are somehow hardwired by God (pre- selected) to do his will. Any one who is a grave sinner and rejects God is dead meat? My brother for instance is currently in a state of “un” salvation. Lets say if he were hit by a car today (God forbid), it would be very highly unlikely that he would be saved (we never know though). However, tomorrow, my brother could very well change his mind (out of free will) and start to find Jesus! So, now he is saved. He just went from unsaved to saved, and he (or I) could just as easily go from saved to unsaved.

Are you saying that whatever our “end” condition is (that condition we die in) that is what we were chosen to be? So, even if I change from saved to unsaved – from goat to sheep to goat to sheep – a million times, and I die unsaved. Because I died unsaved, this is what God chose for me? Your saying that despite the fact that I had at one time accepted Christ, even though I died unsaved this tells the story of my life? That because I died unsaved, I really was “unsaved” all my life?

I want to understand you: Since (according to you) we are either sheep or goats all our lives, even though we may, say, appear to be sheep, if we die a goat that means we really were a goat our whole life? Help me to understand, Tim. Are only some of us a Temple of the Holy Spirit? Elaborate for us, please on this.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 10, 2002.