Report by Reuters , 28 November 2002.

The Catholic Archbishop of Nigeria's Capital yesterday called on Christians in Africa's most populous nation to defend themselves against attack by Muslims in the wake of religious riots killing hundreds.

John Olounfemi Onaiyekan, Archbishop of Abuja said "It is a Christian duty to protect yourselves." He did not elaborate further.

"President Olusegun Obasanjo's government had failed to ensure the safety and security of life.... no group of people should be allowed to invade the city of Abuja and molest law-abiding citizens" Archbishop Onaiyekan claimed.

Senior clergy from the Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran and other churches also lashed out arguing that Christians had taken the brunt of the violence.

In Kaduna, thousands of people huddled in shelters yesterday, afraid to return to their home areas where more than 200 were killed in anti-Christian rioting and where up to 14 Churches were destroyed. -----------------------------

This article can be read further at Reuters.

As a young Nigerian Catholic I feel for the Archbishop and believe that Christians cannot just keep turning the other cheek especially when your fellow members around the world are being assaulted by a hostile religion like Islam that has no conscience for the death of the innocent.

Am I right in my belief that it is only a matter of time for Christians tired of continuous conflicts upon them will rise to Islam's bluff of a global religious civil war?

-- afolabi (spence_a@twtelecom.net), November 30, 2002

Answers

-- (_@_._), November 30, 2002.

Hello Afollabi and welcome aboard! I understand that the Bible and the Church support the use of force in self defence so your good Bishops words are very appropriate. Such violence seems so far removed from my own life and I pray for peace in Nigeria.

I dont think a global war is inevitable, or even remotely likely. God Bless.

-- Kwii (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 30, 2002.

Kiwi

I hope you are right because there can only be two scenarios. Mutual co-existence or acrimony. Your foresight confidence is on the Christian tolerance without thought to Islam's obstinacy to other faith's primarily Christianity.

My concern's is that recent historical turmoil's has forced us to put up and shut up on issue's that affect our religious and social existence. Western Christians are programmed to accept without argument other cultures even if it undermines our structures of freedoms.

A observed point is that Switzerland's population is 20% foreign and the majority Muslim. It causing friction as they make demands regarding their culture and religion but ostracise the Christians who allowed them refugee status.

Perhaps after all I have said I should put more into faith for a peaceful world. It is just difficult when so much terror is going on and the silence from the majority of moderate Muslims is in effect tacit support for the violence that is being perpetrated fundamentally against Christians.

-- amelia (weiza@clubnet.net), November 30, 2002.

This should be an interesting thread... =0

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 30, 2002.

Emerald ok Ill rise to the bait ;-)

Amelia I found your thoughts similar to Gobbels 1938 immigration policy. Similar in that beneath the glossy words hides a more sinister message. Peace and understanding is everyones responsibilty and I dont think that subtle posts like yours actually promote goodwill or love between different groups at all. Far from it I think youre increasing fear and mistrust, mostly on basless allegations and half truths.

I hope you are right because there can only be two scenarios. Mutual co-existence or acrimony. Your foresight confidence is on the Christian tolerance without thought to Islam's obstinacy to other faith's primarily Christianity.

I hope I am right as well Amelia, however I have given plenty of thought to "obstinacy", the differnce being is that unlike yourself I recognise it exists on both sides of this issue.

My concern's is that recent historical turmoil's has forced us to put up and shut up on issue's that affect our religious and social existence. Western Christians are programmed to accept without argument other cultures even if it undermines our structures of freedoms.

Alarmist but not without merit, the impact of immigration on the cultural fabric of society needs to be determined by indidviual countries, let the people decide its called democracy. I think you are confusing Christianity with secularism but thats another issue. You seem to be blurring the line between terrorism and immrgation as well and what exactly do you mean by "put up or shut up"?

A observed point is that Switzerland's population is 20% foreign and the majority Muslim. It causing friction as they make demands regarding their culture and religion but ostracise the Christians who allowed them refugee status.

I dont wish to ridicule you Amelia but I would like you to provide some figures to back up your assertions. Im not Swiss so I will stand to be corrected on the figures I provide you.

Current religion group breakdown Switzerland 1999:

Roman Catholic 46.1%

Protestant 40%

Other Christian 2.1%

Islam 2.2%

Judaism 0.3%

Other religions 0.4%

None 8.9%

(1999). Baedekers Switzerland. Hampshire: AA Publishing.

Perhaps after all I have said I should put more into faith for a peaceful world. It is just difficult when so much terror is going on and the silence from the majority of moderate Muslims is in effect tacit support for the violence that is being perpetrated fundamentally against Christians.

Yes pehaps indeed. I disagree that most moderate Muslims support these terror attacks and wonder just how much contact you have had with moderate Muslim people.

Dont get me wrong Im not denying the war on terror is necessary, I m just not optimistic that it will suceed. Not unless at the same time as this war is being carried out the underlying conditions that drive support for these organisations are mitigated. I dont want to get political but we will at some time in the future have to ask ourselves "why is this war on terror not working"?

While Christianity may be a useful scapegoat clealry the target of extermists Muslims is The United States of America, her allies and her intrests. Why Amelia, what conditions exists that enable such groups to ganner significant and fanatical levels of support.

I would be remiss not to offer you a few Christian thoughts seeing as this is a Catholic forum.

Firstly I hope that you remmber the high regard the Church has for Muslims who also worship one God as we do, "the living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creatator of heaven and earth...this sacred council urges all to forget the past and to work toward mutual understanding as well as toward the preservation and promotion of social justice, moral welfare, peace, and freedom for the benefit of all mankind" (Nostra Aetate 3)

Lets also consider thw words of Pope JPII "As a result of their monothesim, believers in Allah are paticulary close to us" "The religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossble not to admire for example their fidelity to prayer which remains a model for all those who invoke the true God" and also dont forget the symbolic kissing of the Koran.

Peace and Love Amelia

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 30, 2002.

Kiwi

This is the first time I have seen your response as defensive. Reading Amelia's note I can't see her disagreement with you but crossed fingers that you are right. To compare her to a Nazi is below your usual responses and smacks of ignorance to a degree on your part as much as hers. I wonder how you would care to speak to those Christians who have suffered attacks of hatred by Muslims for being Christians. Who incited the young Nigerian Muslim men to carry out the barbaric attacks the Christian communities? You are correct that moderate Muslims are not extremists but I also ask the question why we haven't seen demonstrations by Muslim communities against terror.

You claim terror is against the US and all it stands for then explain why these terrorists always refer to westerners as crusaders. I believe it is to whip up hysteria in the Muslim populace. The recent murder in Lebanon of a Christian missionary, the bombings of Church's in Pakistan and Indonesia while worshippers are present and lastly the recent leader of the governing AKA party in Turkey, political leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan said these words which gave a criminal record for inciting religious hatred;

"Our minarets are our bayonets, Our Mosques are our barracks And our people are our soldiers".

Kiwi it has always been a joy reading your posts just don't deter people from airing reasonable responses as you have adequately done with in Amelia case. I don't see prejudice's in her words just concern and fear. Justifiable to an extent don't you think.

-- elaine (melrosee@wanadoo.fr), December 01, 2002.

The answer I think why moderate majority Muslims don't on mass come forward and protest against Muslim militants is part because there is no central figure as we have in our Church. Every mosque is an entity on it's own not reporting to a higher order.

I also believe that Moslems fear being ostracised in the community if they express a moderate opinion in public let alone if they live in a country practising sharia law of being given a fatwa if spoken against an imman word.

Reflects a insecure culture or comfort not having to decide, sad either way.

Only my thoughts.

-- robert (gwellinr@1ainfo.ch), December 01, 2002.

Hello Elaine, Ive never spoken to you before,however Im often a bit defensive even bi polar like at times. I take your points on board but to my way of thinking her post was not balanced nor fair to Muslim people, I stand by that belief. My response was a bit harsh and arrogant itself reading it especially the old Nazi comparison, hmmm sorry Amelia you have the right to express your views without having someone boorishly try and cut it down because they dont like it.

Sure Christians are still going to be targets, weve been fighting Muslims for a few years now ;-), such a history doesnt dissapear overnight. Still if we look at major terrorist targets off the top of my head : WTC, Pentagon, Whitehouse, French fuel tanker, Australian nightclub in Bali and an Israeli Hotel and a failed atttempt on the London underground. Hardly symbols of Christianity? Still I accept it plays a part in the curent conflict.

Muslims cop a bit of flak as well from time to time. See you ladies hope I didnt scare Amelia off. I should be trying to chat up the girls here not frigtening them off. Blessings :-)

A few reactions immediatley after 9/11 in Europe. CNN Special Report 19/11/01

"Avenge U.S.A." is the scrawled message in red paint. "Kill a Muslim now." Terrorism in the United States has prompted an upsurge in anti- Muslim attacks all over Europe.

Mosques and Muslims have been targeted in The Netherlands, Britain, Denmark and Poland in apparent retaliation for last week's mass murders by suicide teams.

"It is worldwide. We are now getting reports of a lot of attacks and demonisation of Muslims in Australia," said Masoud Shadjareh, chairman of Britain's Islamic Human Rights Commission.

"It is madness," he told CNN. "People are being punched and kicked in the streets and spat upon. In Britain we have even had a report about a child's headscarf being forcibly removed by a teacher."

In The Netherlands a mosque and two classrooms at a Muslim school were set alight in separate incidents.

Classes were cancelled at a primary school in the southern town of Nijmegen after one attack.

In Zwolle, eastern Holland, at the weekend only the quick reaction of police and firefighters put out a fire at a mosque before it swept through the building.

In Copenhagen, a 28-year-old Dane was arrested when he was about to hurl petrol bombs at a mosque. Buying petrol at a gas station he had told staff: "Now I am going to do the Americans a favour."

On Tuesday night in the city of Moerkoev near Holbaek, western Sealand, an Afghani-owned pizzeria was attacked by unknown men, who smashed the windows of the shop and threw burning petrol inside. They left a Danish flag outside. The police linked the incident to a similar incident a month ago.

The attacks and the fear of xenofobia led Danish Muslims to call an emergency meeting.

Danish Foreign Minister Mogens Lykketoft denounced the incidents as attempts to incite violence against Muslims and equate terrorism with Islam. Denmark has 170,000 Muslims, about three percent of the population.

In Poland, which does not have a large Muslim population, a mosque was attacked by stone-throwing youths.

On Wednesday in Manchester, northwestern England, a summit of community leaders was called to discuss growing anti-Islamic racism, including the petrol-bombing of a Mosque in Bolton, Greater Manchester, while 20 people, including children, worshipped inside.

Other incidents in Britain have included street beatings and women in Muslim dress being abused and attacked, while some mosques have been daubed with graffiti and sent bomb threats

An Afghan taxi driver was paralysed from the neck down after being dragged from his cab in Twickenham, southwest London, and beaten by three men who made comments about the destruction of the World Trade Center.

A 19-year-old Asian girl in Swindon, western England, was also battered about the head by two men with a baseball bat.

Yousouf Bhailok, secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain, told CNN the situation was "worrying" and could get worse.

"These people are British citizens. It must be made clear these actions should not be tolerated," he said.

Shadjareh called for laws outlawing anti-Islamism in the same way anti-Semitism is made illegal and he warned that extremists were trying to exploit the situation

"There is a Europe-wide organisation called White Knight, a successor to Combat 18, which takes as its patron saint Santiago Matamorosa, famed for slaying Muslims."

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 01, 2002.

excuse the cut and pste but here arew a few thoughts on the issue not all I agree with but he/she raises a few intresting examples.

Seperating Islam and Extremism by Rana Riziv

"This raises many questions: Why is CNN spreading hatred among people on the basis of religion: Muslim vs. Christians? Is America fighting against a specific religion instead of terrorism? If we sow the seeds of hatred among children and people, what can we really expect to reap a crop of love, peace and humanity?

The American media has mixed terrorism with Islam. The Taliban and bin Laden may profess to be Muslim, but they are not true Muslims. They, as well as other organizations, are using the name of Islam and God for their own nefarious designs.

While all Muslims follow the Last Prophet, the Taliban and bin Laden have their own rules; they want to spread Islamic rules by force. However, the Last Prophet didn't preach Islam by force. The Last Prophet said: "He is not a Muslim who hurt others by his hands or feet." How can Bin Laden and other extremists be true Muslims if they do not follow the Last Prophet? Islam teaches its followers to respect other religions and faiths and those people who belong to other religions. Islam is the religion of love, peace and humanity. While there is no doubt bin Laden and others belong to Islam, one must remember that they are extremists.

Extremism is a cancer and it should be eradicated. But it is a hard fact that extremists exist in every religion. "No religion is free from extremism," declares Abdel Fattah Amor, the UN's Special Rapporteur on Religious Intolerance. There are cases of discrimination against Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists, Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Muslim extremism that broke out in Indonesia has, in some cases, led to violent counter-attacks by Christian extremists. Judaism may also be subjected to distortion in Israel by Jewish extremists, according to the study.

Another example of extremism is in the caste system is in Hindu religion. There are many incidents in which extremists Brahmans burn Showder villages, and many Showders as well. The very extreme Brahmans think that Showers do not have the right to live.

A hate group that has shown some recent growth is the anti-Semitic and racist World Church of the Creator (WCOTC), which seeks "an all- white nation and ultimately an all-white world," rejecting Christianity altogether in favor of a "race-based," whites-only creed. In 1999, a WCOTC member, Benjamin Smith, murdered two men, one Black and one Asian, and seriously injured eight other people, including six Jews, in a Midwest shooting rampage that ended in his own suicide.

According to Amor, extremism may be inter-religious (directed against religious communities of different faiths); intra-religious (within the same religion and, in particular, between different sects); or even both at once. "The most striking example is that of the Taliban (in Afghanistan), who, in the name of religion are persecuting not only non-Muslim minorities, but also Muslims: both Afghan Muslim minorities (for example the Shi'ites) and the Muslim majority (Sunnis) subject to the Taliban's," he says.

While acknowledging the danger represented by the extremism of groups claiming allegiance to Islam, the study points out that "it is important to distinguish between such extremists using Islam for political purposes, who are in fact in the minority, and the majority of Muslims practicing Islam in accordance with the principles of tolerance and non-discrimination."

Being aware of such a distinction can make the different opinions about the reasons behind the attacks easier to understand. One thing that everyone around the world can agree on is that a drawn-out war is now in the picture.

There are many who do not believe that war is a solution to uproot terrorism. Terrorist attacks can't be ignored but a military response will not stop terrorism; it would, instead, make it worse. Protests against the war have occurred around the world but despite the outcry, America began strikes against Afghanistan, where bin Laden may be hiding, on October 7th. So far, 20 civilians have been reported killed.

President George W. Bush said: "We will not fail." But the million- dollar question is how he can eradicate terrorism from the world through waging a war?

Mahendra Ratnaweera, a Sri Lankan journalist, quoting Lord Naseby of the British House of Lords, disclosed that Sri Lanka's rebels of the separatist Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) are training Osama bin Laden's suicide units in Afghanistan. The LTTE terrorists from Sri Lanka are the masters of suicide killings in the world. They learnt their art from the Hezbollah, Lord Naseby had said.

It is obvious that many countries are breeding grounds of terrorism. Terrorist networks can be found in countries around the world, including the U.S. Does this mean that Bush will wage a war of in all of these countries, even at home?

The United States should think about other ways to eradicate terrorism instead of through war. War always wounds - and they are endless wounds. Do not forget the victims of Japan, Vietnam, the Gulf, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. Terrorism should not be eradicated through the bloodshed of innocent people."

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 01, 2002.

Care to dance ladies? Check out those moves Im a star. LOL.

One final article that all Americans should read

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134587251_bushislam0 10.html

thoughts?

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 01, 2002.

Kiwi

I would like to come in and say that you show colours of peace but a little sweet in siding with Muslims. I harbour no ill at them, the ones I have met have come a across as any other person in public.

Your views on Islam I differ. It professes compassion but not love as we know it, if it did the teachings would promote forgiveness before retribution. As Christ said when tested on the issue of punishment, let he cast the first stone who has not sinned.

Muhammad was a general and if you research history of his campaigns it is noted that he lay siege to towns until they starved. Only showing compassion with food if they converted. Those that were stubborn or rebuffed him were killed.

You are correct that violence is perpetrated against Muslims and I fully condemn it, but it does not equal the violence throughout the world that is being perpetrated against Christians and people of other faiths.

One only has to surf through Google to see pages of harassment in Islamic republics of Christians. Unlike western societies those civilians do not have court protection. It must be said that as the worlds population expands and overlaps you will have friction. However I would have to agree that Muslims should try to understand and accommodate Christians and their culture without always crying foul.

The issue will come along way when Muslims in western countries contest the preaching's of their imam's who often call for resistance and vengeance. Lastly the Christian church cannot compete with Islam financially especially as Muslim communities across Europe are financed by wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the Emirates. The funding goes to madras's (Islamic schools) that are largely a front for the establishment of a Caliphate in the west, in short Sharia. Something that I personally hopes never comes into existence.

Peace with you fellow Catholic.

-- joyce (arksonj@celnet.uk), December 01, 2002.

Kiwi

your research is admirable but you forgot to mention the Pan Arab- European league that is in question and is about to be banned in Belgium for provoking young muslims to riot.

Joyce, you quoted Caliphate, what is this term?

-- sema (torgats@gen.twtelecom.net), December 01, 2002.

Hi Joyce, Im not so sure about Islam being so destructive as it is portrayed in the media. I lived in Malaysia for a while, I found the Muslim culture fascinating, even inspiring and I certainly wasnt treated badly because I was a Westertn Christian. Just my personal experience.Just wait for the American posters to find this thread= all out attack on Islam, guess I like backing the underdog sometimes.

Ive got to get off this damn thing I was on it for about 7 hours today and its starting to show, Im hooked. Peace be with you too.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 01, 2002.

Kiwi,

I can see where your bias in Islam practises stems from. Malaysia is tolerant of it's different cultures and faiths. One could only wish other Muslim countries would follow.

I have a question though would they be tolerant if the mix approached a 50/50 level of Islam and Christianity. You may agree as they have a majority they can enforce their islamic law on those that don't practise Islam. Here is my observation in the creation of a caliphate state in Europe by an active Muslim minority amongst moderate muslims in Europe.

-- joyce (arksonj@celnet.uk), December 01, 2002.

Blue Monday.

I think that's what Spiderman is dancing to there.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 01, 2002.

Hi Joyce

Kiwi, I can see where your bias in Islam practises stems from.

Its only biased from where you're looking from ,of course we are all biased someone or another. I wonder what agenda, you push and why in regard to Muslims,I certainly have none. Is creating ill feeling and mistrust towards Muslims a good idea, is it how the Church asks us to respond to the Muslim problem? I agree it is a problem I just reject your approach as antagonistic, disrespectful and counter productive. Guess Im a liberal.

Are our own prejudiced views of the world perhaps distorting their values and ideals a little much? I offer my opinion after reading our Holy Fathers thoughts and my own personal experience. I could well be wrong, but as a CAtholic you havent offered me much from Pope John Paul II or any other Pope for that matter, to make me change my mind. Sorry for trusting him over you, Im funny like that sometimes.

Malaysia is tolerant of it's different cultures and faiths. One could only wish other Muslim countries would follow.

Agreed.

I have a question though would they be tolerant if the mix approached a 50/50 level of Islam and Christianity.

As long as ethnic Malays remain in positions of control in the millitary and government I dont think the mix is an issue. Indeed the Muslim poulation is only a little over 50% at the moment from memory.

You may agree as they have a majority they can enforce their islamic law on those that don't practise Islam.

Perhaps God would be more pleased with moderate Islamic States that enforce Islamic law than with indivualistic secular western "Christian" states. Have you met Winston yet? ;-).

Here is my observation in the creation of a caliphate state in Europe by an active Muslim minority amongst moderate muslims in Europe.

Um unsure what youre on about here? See you Joyce Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 01, 2002.

Kiwi

You have a right to side to stand on the behalf of Muslims. I would agree that balance is required but you keep tripping from your Achilles heel when the argument catches you off guard by lobbying insinuations of religious intolerance. In this case referring to Amelia as being on par with an evil person like Goebbels and then labelling me antagonistic, disrespectful and counter productive. This is a forum of debate and I am only responding to it by high lighting issues that Christians may on a whole perceive and in counter to your perception.

Your third paragraph from the end of your last response is concerning. To claim that "God would be more pleased with moderate Islamic States that enforce Islamic law".

What you are suggesting here is as extraordinary, I don't believe Christ gave us the right to take life at least not in his name. Islamic law is Sharia law and for a few men in Nigeria to declare a young girl, Amine Lewal, who has a child out of wed lock as committing adultery and there fore death by stoning is unjust and against human rights as I know it.

Secular state may have it's faults but it gives you liberties, freedoms and protection that a majority of the world does not have. If our government was not secular then only one belief of sought would be tolerated as in Saudi Arabia and other autocratic states.

Isioma Daniel an African American of Nigerian decent, young and naive of her countries complexities made the foolish mistake as editor of a newspaper by saying Mohammed would have wed one of the contestants. The young girl now has a fatwa death sentence on her head as an Imam called all Muslims to kill her. This is murder in God's name (chilling). Does she have rights under Islamic law, appears not. As a result she fled back to the US only to return after the rioting had eased and apologised but to no avail.

Kiwi as man perhaps you can see good in sharia law. As I am young in a country that guarantees my rights I can say Islamic law is med-evil so long as it allows a few religious leaders to take life. They are in effect murderers. Christ after all reminded us to look inside ourselves before we condemn others.

Having said this Muslims have every right to a peaceful existence but then so do people of other faiths.

Caliphate is spoken in the Quran calling for the establishment of Islamic law in non-islamic countries.

-- joyce (arksonj@celnet.uk), December 02, 2002.

Hi Joyce Im abit of a jerk sometimes take everything I say not too seriously, right let the argument continue!

You have a right to side to stand on the behalf of Muslims. I would agree that balance is required but you keep tripping from your Achilles heel when the argument catches you off guard by lobbying insinuations of religious intolerance. In this case referring to Amelia as being on par with an evil person like Goebbels and then labelling me antagonistic, disrespectful and counter productive. This is a forum of debate and I am only responding to it by high lighting issues that Christians may on a whole perceive and in counter to your perception.

If only you responded to it by just "high lighting issues", instead you tell me "I have an achilles heel", "I am biased" "I am little sweet in siding with Muslims" etc etc Listen love I know next to nothing on Islam, clearly its something you have little time for and have a great deal of knoweldge on. Im rather ambivilant about Islam even, probably because I think we should get our own houses in order before we stail wailing and gnashing teeth over the evils of another religion. I think to lump terrorism in the Islamic basket is just what they want.Theyve won when we start thinking like that.

Again I think your approach is wrong. But Im happy to be corrected, Im no ego maniac I can accept when Im wrong. Please correct the passages I quoted from the Church clearly you know better. The question is why, what drives your clear agenda? Clearly not Church doctrine. You are strangley silent on AMelias botched figures, hey why let a few facts get in the way of a Crusade? Albiet one increasingly looking like the most frigtening of all fundamentalist fighters- the hairy legged charge of the zealous feminist is indeed a scary prospect. Let it go, femminism is long dead chicky babe ;-).

Your third paragraph from the end of your last response is concerning. To claim that "God would be more pleased with moderate Islamic States that enforce Islamic law". What you are suggesting here is as extraordinary, I don't believe Christ gave us the right to take life at least not in his name. Islamic law is Sharia law and for a few men in Nigeria to declare a young girl, Amine Lewal, who has a child out of wed lock as committing adultery and there fore death by stoning is unjust and against human rights as I know it. Secular state may have it's faults but it gives you liberties, freedoms and protection that a majority of the world does not have. If our government was not secular then only one belief of sought would be tolerated as in Saudi Arabia and other autocratic states. Isioma Daniel an African American of Nigerian decent, young and naive of her countries complexities made the foolish mistake as editor of a newspaper by saying Mohammed would have wed one of the contestants. The young girl now has a fatwa death sentence on her head as an Imam called all Muslims to kill her. This is murder in God's name (chilling). Does she have rights under Islamic law, appears not. As a result she fled back to the US only to return after the rioting had eased and apologised but to no avail.

Wow Miss World certainly opened a few eyes. Cool it sickens me as well, but before you start to get so outraged with a few stonings based on the breaking of Gods Law, (remember the Church has burned plenty of people in its time) perhaps you should look at yourself and your own society. Whether it is a stone or lethal injection the result is the same and both upset me, you can argue the morality of the crime all day the result is the same. Perhaps a bigger issue you conviently glaze over is the fact that Islamic law protects unborn children unless the women is going to die. In this wonderful free world of choice and empowerment you speak so highly of a holocaust is occuring right under your own idealistic eyes. 50 million completley innocent babies are killed each year outside Islamic states, perhaps you yourself have friends who have had an abortion? They are the real murderers. How do you think Muslims view this crime?

Hey Kiwi as man perhaps you can see good in sharia law.

*groan* Yeah bi#$h and dont you forget it! Now wheres my Eminem cd gone?

As I am young in a country that guarantees my rights I can say Islamic law is med-evil so long as it allows a few religious leaders to take life. They are in effect murderers.

Christ after all reminded us to look inside ourselves before we condemn others.

Oh the beautiful irony. The key to creating understanding is using your imagination, to create empathy and to put issues into a wider perspective. The us and them, the myth of the other- dangerous stuff. I dont know what else to say. I disagree but Im not an expert on Islam you just havent offered me much to change my mind.

ps even on the internet I show myself as not a very good ladies man!I thought the women would be *swooning* with the dance moves Ive got. Maybe Im just a chauvanist pig ;-)

see you Joyce

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

'cuse the sp gr syntax etc

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

I have so enjoyed watching the exchanges going on here. Kiwi you lost your cool and intellectually you've been beat. I can concur Joyce caused you to trip again purly because she never went "personal" below the belt in arguing with you.

The two of you should meet over coffee because the exchanges only show a healthy exchange of views and possible friendship.

Perhaps it is your dancing that fires up these women in your life.

-- annette (kaminera@azani.com), December 02, 2002.

"Kiwi you lost your cool"... sobs quietly in the corner, oh well I concede this one if you say so girls.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

Kiwi

Where do you find your facts on abortions. Please go to WHO (World Health Organisation) and you can find out that abortions in back alleys in Islamic countries is a phenomenal problem. So much that Iran, Jordan and Indonesia allow it more often now to avoid the death of so many young girls to butchers in sweat rooms.

This is prevalent through out all societies and human thinking is no different because you happen to follow one belief.

Please get real people are the same every where as in sexual desires and the mistakes that happen from them.

Please see the wood from the trees.

-- greg (orman_gr@digiti.com), December 02, 2002.

Hi Greg, I dont want to get into an abortion debate on this thread. I know its not an easy issue to deal with and Im no superior moralist. Im not a good Catholic in many senses myself. This is not a religious issue it is an ethical issue, the right of a human being to live. Please start up an abortion thread yourself if you wish to discuss.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

Kiwi,

You're okay, a bit mellow dramatic where you shouldn't be and rather where you sensitivities could be like the circumstances of the Nigerian girl Amine Lewal.

But hey maybe you will feel differently after the stoning has taken place.

-- joyce (arksonj@celnet.uk), December 02, 2002.

Hey nothing melodramatic about abortion figures but I hope people realise I was joking about the b@#th thing. (some Americans are a little too literal for comfort at times).

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

And Im so much bloody better than "ok" as well. ;-)

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

One final cut and paste. I promise, I doubt anyone will read it, its fairly long still I think its well worth it to get the other sides view, it is written by a Muslim. It relates to why we never here about Islamic leaders protesting about terrorism. This writer believes it realtes to the control of extremist Wahhabi Muslims.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=4693

: If Wahhabism is not Islam, why aren't more Muslims vocally renouncing the Wahhabists?

Schwartz: Nobody can say that Wahhabism or any other form of Muslim religious radicalism, is "not Islam," anymore than one can say that one or another extreme element in Judaism or Christianity do not belong to those faiths. Islam includes many strains. Over 1,000 years, pluralism within the faith was the norm, and traditional Muslims shied away from arguing that what they disliked was "not Islam," or that Muslims they opposed were "unbelievers." But with the rise of Wahhabism and, particularly, the benefits of petrodollars, the Wahhabi-Saudis have arrogated to themselves a position of leadership in the world Islamic community or umma. Their claim of preeminence is not Islamically sound, in the opinion of many scholars.

Leading Muslims outside the U.S. denounce Wahhabism, and many denounced the atrocity of 9/11. Unfortunately, however, most of U.S. media is completely incompetent in finding, listening to, or understanding these voices. U.S. media does not interview anti- Wahhabi sheikhs or imams or muftis in the Islamic world. U.S. media paid no attention when the head of Bosnian Islamic scholars, Mustafa efendija Ceric, preached eloquently against terrorism. U.S. media did not notice when an Albanian daily — in a country with a Muslim majority — hailed the U.S. action in Afghanistan last year with the headline "Nobody Veils the Statue of Liberty's Face." Nobody in the U.S. media has followed up on reports by myself and others showing that Kosovar Albanian Muslims would like to fight for the West in Iraq. Worse, U.S. media has reported very little of the mobilization of 70 million Indonesian Muslims against extremism in the aftermath of the Bali horror.

U.S. media listens to the so-called "Arab street," which is essentially irrelevant, filled as it is with yelling loiterers, or engages in polling exercises asking loaded questions. This, of course, reinforces the view of Muslims as unanimous haters of the West and America. To understand the struggle of the world's traditional Muslims against Wahhabism, you have to get away from the "Arab street" and meaningless people wandering around. You have to sit down with serious Islamic clerics and thinkers and dialogue with them in a way they understand and respect. I did this in the Balkans. This is one of several reasons I never tire of pointing out that, just as Orwell went to Spain, not Russia, to understand Stalinism, I went to Sarajevo, not Riyadh, to learn about Wahhabism.

I have never seen a single serious interview with an Islamic religious figure on Western television. This is in itself a shocking fact. Of course, first an interviewer would have to know who to interview and what questions to ask. But if you don't know who or what to ask you have no business proclaiming how much of the Islamic world hates us and supports terror. Proper media coverage of Islam, meaning the views of serious clerics and intellectuals, seems unlikely to happen in a media industry where Barbara Walters remains transfixed by Saudi princes handing out charity and Bill O'Reilly preens himself by referring to Islam as "the enemy's religion." In the wars with Japan and Vietnam, Buddhism was the religion of much of the enemy, but we never saw wholesale smears against Buddhists in the U.S. public square.

Of course, for much of the media, the primitive and simplistic image of Muslims as uniformly extremist and terrorist is easier to report, more popular, and "better TV" than that of a complex conflict inside a world religion. It also supports the left-wing claim that it's all our fault, or Israel's. It's so much easier to say they all hate us because of our hegemony and Zionism than to say, as I do, that they don't all hate us, and that the real issue is the battle for the soul of Islam.

As for the situation in the U.S., condemnation of Wahhabism and even of terrorism have been sparse for the following reasons:

Wahhabis (CAIR, etc.) are granted status by U.S. media as the main Islamic spokespeople. They issue ameliorative statements intended to end discussion of the problem, and they closely watch the community and prevent traditional Muslims from expressing themselves openly about Wahhabism and its involvement with terrorism. The U.S. media let them get away with this.

Most immigrant Muslims in the U.S. came to this country to get away from extremism and are horrified to see that their faith is in extremist hands here. They believed, before coming here, that the U.S. government would never permit such a thing to happen. However, their children are often indoctrinated and radicalized by extremists operating through Muslim schools, Islamic Sunday schools, and radical campus groups. That the U.S. government turned a blind idea to the Wahhabization of American Islam is deeply shocking and disturbing for them. They feel intimidated and defeated. The fact that the U.S. political and media elite have done almost nothing to enable traditional Muslims in this country to oppose Wahhabism makes the situation that much worse.

Traditional Islam rejected involvement in politics, especially radical politics. For this reason also, traditional Muslims in this country have been slow to rally against Wahhabi influence.

Finally, traditional Muslims in this country and around the world were devastated by 9/11. Their reaction was one of shock, horror, and deep depression. Even many of those who tried to deny Muslim involvement in 9/11 did so because the alternative, admitting the role of terrorism in Islam today, was almost inconceivable. This is not because of agreement with the terrorists, but because of revulsion from them. Islam may not appear as "the religion of peace" to others, but most ordinary Muslims believe it is such. The evidence of 9/11 was so overwhelmingly negative many of them can best be described as profoundly demoralized.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

hear = hear

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 02, 2002.

Kiwi,

you keep babbling on about anti-abortion, but where has anyone on this thread argued in favour of it.

Good comparisons between our teachings from Christ and those in Islamic Sharia law have been given yet you label those as being feminists, nazi's and other crude names.

You're someone with either serious social issues in which case see a quack quick, or as you stated earlier with Greg & Joyce that you neither a good Catholic or informed on Islamic Sharia law. In short ignorant.

It may also be that you're going through a difficult period of fascination with Islam and an interest in converting. If this is so convert, there is nothing wrong in your case as you have stated earlier that your faith in Christ is poor.

-- wayne (shubertw@marshinc.com), December 03, 2002.

To all.... . I admit to being less than charitable at times on this thread, but mostly its in good humor and Im sure those who read ALL my words can put them into context. If I upset you Joyce or Amelia I am sorry, Im a bit of goof at times. Guess that coffee date is out of the question now hey ;-).

I conceded that to underplay the dangers posed by Islam, is as Joyce points out dangerous. However everything needs to be put in perspective and I was tring to offer that by playing a devils advocate, if a rather lame one at times. An all out ideological attack on Islam isn't going to be particularly helpful in working out the conflicts that exist in the middle east and preventing as Afolab fears might occur "a global religious war" IMHO.

Wayne Shuuuuurburt, I should just let my words stand on their own merits but you seem to be someone of so few redeeming features that I cannot resist. As you paint me as Dr Evil, Im happy to analyse your own unfortunate condition. I havent got much time, luckily I wont need it in dealing with you. I recall you contributing your so called "thoughts" before on this forum.

Yes my dear Wayne a pattern is emerging and the news isnt good. Not good at all Im afraid.Wayne the prognosis is "total and complete absence of brain tissue or stem". Yes, sorry son... you are brain dead. The good news is youre unable to realise it and will continue to live your sad existance in blissful ignorance.

You continue to provide irrefutable proof by sharing your *thoughts*, and yeah theyre every bit as painful as one would expect with no functioning synapses. Please reply for a second opinion if youre not convinced.

I knew *daring* to mention abortion, albiet briefly in the same breath as the execution of *criminals* would stir the less nimble amongst us to pass comment.

I am somewhat surprised you were able to read my words although clearly comprehension is a skill you have yet to master. Yes, sadly you rush to Joyces defence with that primitive mind of yours caught between confusion and outrage. You spew forth your *thoughts*. Pity. Stick to your strengths, being force fed and defecacting youself.

Best medical advice I can give you? Say nothing ...ever. You show all the critical skills of eight day old road kill. Ive caught fish with less of a need for remedial reading lessons.

Bye Bye fool

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 03, 2002.

Dear Joyce and Kiwi

Just to inform both of you that you will only know the TRUE picture of Islam in Malaysia if you are a Malaysian (or local) Christian living here. I was born as a Christian in Malaysia and till today we are not as equal as the Muslim here. Please do not speak about moderate Muslim in Malaysian where you only live a few years here where as we have to live here for the rest of our live.

Yes, Malaysia to a certain extend is a moderate Muslim country but the indirect 'persecution' of the Chiristian have began many many years ago. We cannot bring the Good News to them (the Muslim) provided you wanted to risk your life living in jail. There are many a times where we cannot built the Church we want. Till today there is a place where we Christian have fail to built the Church after 10 years of application simply because the Muslim State Government do not want a church to be there.

95% of the Muslim in Malaysia support Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein and this include even the so call 'moderate' Muslim I know personlly. What more should I say.

As long as you are a foreigner you will always be deceive by our Government and will never know the true situation of the Muslim here. Only the local Christian will face the 'music' and the reality of life, living in a so call 'moderate Islamic State'

If you read our local papers and listen to all the speaches of our leaders you will know they are all anti-......

May God Bless Malaysia

-- For Christ (christian@pd.jaring.my), December 08, 2002.

Thank you for your courageous testimony, "Christian Malaysian."

Your words help us who live "half a world" away ...
(1) to realize just how oppressive is a Moslem majority [and even a large Moslem minority] and ...
(2) to realize that foreigners cannot really understand a nation (and ought to comment very sparingly and tentatively about it) unless they have lived there for a long time.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 09, 2002.