If we are forgiven our sins during the sacrament of baptism,how can any catholic become a born again.So these born again people need to realize that we are already forgiven and have no need to be born again again.and again.

-- Andrew m Tillcock (Drewmeister7@aol.com), December 08, 2002

Answers

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

Hi Andrew

When we are born into this world we are born to the human family. So every child is born without a religion. So there is no such thing as 'born Catholic'. We are always baptise Catholic.

Our born again is when we receive our Baptism where we enter into a spiritual relationship with our Creator and thus enter into communion with the Church - the Christian community. That is our born again-the second birth.

Correct me if I am wrong John.

God Bless

-- Vincent Koh (vincentkoh@pd.jaring.my), December 08, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

actually vincent what i meant was after we have received the sacrament of baptism,as infants.Why would any catholic in there adult life want to be Born Again,I'm asking this as one of my dear friends who is catholic say's her mom and her sister have become Born again,and they are both baptised catholic's.So i don't get it.

-- Andrew m Tillcock (Drewmeister7@aol.com), December 08, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

Dear Andrew, I have found that it is difficult to label people's experiences because the Holy Spirit deals with everyone differently. A key piece of advice is to be very sensitive and personal with God, and ask Him to show you what He wants with you and how He wants to deal with you.

In the third chapter of John, Jesus has a conversation with Nicodemus, and Jesus tells Him "no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above", and again Jesus tells him "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the spirit". Jesus repeats it again, and says "amen, amen", this was important to Him. May I tell you a little of my own story in hopes it will help?

I was baptized by my family into the Catolic Church when I was an infant, and raised in a Catholic community,received Jesus in Communion and received the sacrament of Confirmation at age 14. This is a typical pattern for many Catholics. I received forgiveness of original sin at baptism, and received continued forgiveness of sins in the sacrament of penance. However as a young adult my life began to seperate from the patterns my family trained me in. Eventually I needed to OWN my faith, so to speak, to make a stand and choose to follow the Person of Jesus, and look into these matters of faith and the Catholic religion on my own.

I did this at a Catholic charismatic prayer meeting. I was hungry for God on a personal basis, and asked Jesus to be LORD of my entire life. It was life-changing for me, it was no longer that I did exterior things for God like going to church because that's just what you did. I began to know Jesus, and my heart began to experience fire, a fire of driving love for Him, which caused changes in my decisions.

The Mass came alive for me, I realized the POWER that we receive in the sacrament of Confirmation. God wants us to be His soldiers, and He equips us with the weapons and the power. The words of the bible began to LEAP off the pages and speak to my personal life. I wanted to tell everyone about Jesus.

You see, we receive everything as Catholics in the sacraments, but sometimes we don't realize it, until later. If someone gave you a gift and you said 'thanks' and just left it on the table, saying 'oh, how nice, I have a gift', what difference does it make in your life? It could be a million dollars that would change your life style!

This is what Jesus says to us, our lives must change, we must be led by the Holy Spirit, and He will show us how to leave behind the fleshly attitudes and make us 'think with HIS mind, be born from above'.

So, as Catholics, we HAVE everything, we are born-again at baptism, but we need to always be assessing where we are with God, ALWAYS be re-aligning our wills with Him. In my case as an adult I made a conscious commitment to Him, my friends layed their hands on me and prayed that I'd receive what's called the 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. It's not a new baptism, but it's a RELEASE of the power that I had received in confirmation.

In the book of acts there are many stories of those who had received water baptism, born again, but had not even heard of the Holy Spirit so the apostles prayed for them to receive Him. {Acts 8:14-17} . Ironically, Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, but Peter baptized him with water after. {Acts 10:45}. So the Holy spirit moves as He will. That's why I say for you to ask the Holy Spirit to lead you personally, we begin to 'hear' His voice as we ask Him to speak to us.

It is most unfortunate that many Catholics don't realize what they have in the sacraments, thus leading quite mundane lukewarm lives.

Andrew, are you a Catholic? Are your friends still going to Mass? It is posssible for them to have a born-again experience and still remain Catholic. It's just an awakening of what they had. Hope this helps, love,Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), December 08, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

Keep in mind that being "born again" is not a Protestant idea. Protestants got the idea from a Catholic source - the Bible. And the Catholic Church accepted and taught the idea even before the New Testament was written. Otherwise it would not have gotten into the New Testament in the first place. Catholics were born again for 1500 years before self-proclaimed "born again Christians" ever existed.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 08, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

This brings to mind an interesting question (okay, *I* think it's interesting! so there!) - I've heard it suggested that due to the poor catechesis so many Catholic kids receive these days, the age for receiving the sacrament of Confirmation should perhaps be raised, maybe even to 18 years old. (Note: I'm not talking about the Eucharist or Penance, just Confirmation.)

Your thoughts? :-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), December 09, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

Hi, Christine.

Your topic is something that the U.S. bishops have been considering for several years. You may find the following "fruit" of their considerations [from their Internet site] helpful:

"August 31, 2001 -- Following recognition by the Holy See, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has decreed that the age for conferring the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States will be between 'the age of discretion and about sixteen years of age.' ... The decree follows approval last November (2000) by the nation's Latin Rite bishops of legislation for the United States setting the age for conferring the Sacrament of Confirmation at between the age of discretion (considered to be about age seven) and 'about sixteen years of age.' The Holy See's Congregation for Bishops gave its recognition of the U.S. Bishops' action on May 9, 2001. The 1983 Code of Canon Law sets the age for conferring Confirmation 'at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age ...' (Canon 891). The decree becomes effective July 1, 2002."

Hey, everyone. I think that there may have been a misunderstanding of what Andrew Tillcock was asking. Have another look at his words:
"I'm asking this as one of my dear friends who is catholic say's her mom and her sister have become Born again, and they are both baptised catholic's. So i don't get it."

I strongly suspect that the mother and sister of Andrew's friend have joined a Fundamentalist sect. In other words, they think that they have just now become "born-again Christians."
Andrew, if this is the case, then the two women are wrong. They should not have left the Catholic Church for a Christian sect that will teach them errors. They were "born again in water and the Holy Spirit" in baptism. They cannot be "born a third time."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 11, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

Yes Thank you john,Being catholic will always be a life long journey of learning experience's And i don't claim to have all the answers but I am still a little unsure on this whole topic. For the longest time i thought this Born again thing was some kind of evangelist thing like the groups that go around asking Have you been saved,I like what theresa had to say and think this may be the case for some.But as far as technical terms i have read more on this subject and everything i read goes directly back to the sacrament of baptism.

true meaning of being "born again" is that through the Sacrament of Baptism, the person has become a new creature. (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1265) The baptized person has received the "newness of life." [Rom. 6:4] This new creation is everything! [Gal. 6:15]

Now i am not saying that there is no such thing as being born again. As for Myself i have become closer and more at peace with myself and feel closer than ever with my relationship with god and feel a sense of warmth and fullfilment, but could not put this into a nice neat little catergory .I guess some of us have this calling at different times and we will never know exactly why.Just that we must accept the gift. Although my friend did just tell me the other night go ask my priest about this,and then told me that if i ever became a born again she would Kick my ***.But she say's that there are born again catholic's including her sister and mother.HMMMMmmmmmmmmmm.

-- Andrew m Tillcock (Drewmeister7@aol.com), December 11, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

I think Andrew that the use of the term "born again" by fundamentalists is simply a term signifying a conversion experience. I grew up around fundies, and they always seemed to be refering to a unique moment in time where a person has decided to drop the ways of the world and seek God; a focal point of choosing to God.

But Catholics have been doing this for 2,000 years. Look at Saint Augustine... man did he ever have a "born again" experience, or Saint Paul getting knocked off his horse. These big decisions to choose God need maintanence and recommitment, and so every now and the Protestants have a "revival". We have the confessional, as our focal point of maintenance and recommitment as well as many other means.

I don't at all deny that the "born again" experience is something that exists, or points to some recognition of something real or truthful. I would point out that these experiences are nothing new to Catholics. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 11, 2002.

Response to Why would a catholic be born again

I want to thank everyone for there input on this question,As for me it has enlightened me on the subjrct both from all of you and from my own research.

PAX

-- Andrew m Tillcock (Drewmeister7@aol.com), December 12, 2002.

I searched in google for born again catholic and this came up. I am a born-again Protestant and I am a bit confused; i am hoping that some of you can help me understand.

What exactly is confirmation? What is the deal with baptism while still a child? It seems as though you do not have a choice to be Catholic when your parents take you to be baptized at such an early age. Does that mean salvation is not a choice? If that is true, how can God allow some people to go to hell; is was not their choice. In any case and I know that the last post was a while ago, I was hoping that somebody may be able to explain this to me.

-- Aaron Briggs (s1292093@cedarville.edu), September 19, 2003.

What exactly is confirmation?

A: Confirmation is the sacrament through which we receive a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit, completing the graces of baptism and empowering us to live the Christian life as adults, with a more strict commission to spread and defend the faith. The Apostles received their Confirmation on Pentecost, and thereafter conveyed the sacrament to others by the laying on of hands by the bishop - just as it is done today.

What is the deal with baptism while still a child? It seems as though you do not have a choice to be Catholic when your parents take you to be baptized at such an early age.

A: The Church founded by Jesus Christ has always baptized children, because Jesus Himself said that no-one can enter the kingdom without baptism (John 3:5). He also said that one must become as a little child in order to possess the kingdom (Matt 18:3; 19:14) It is apparent then that little children must be eligible for that which is necessary to possess the kingdom, namely baptism. The novel 16th century view that baptism is something we do to demonstrate our commitment to God is plainly false. The 2,000 year old belief of the Christian Church is that baptism is a sacrament - something God does to us, which conveys grace and changes us spiritually and permanently. Of course salvation is a choice. Membership in the Church is not synonymous with salvation; but it places us in the will of God and the fountain of grace which will enable us to choose salvation when we attain the age of reason.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 19, 2003.

What exactly is confirmation? A: Confirmation is the sacrament through which we receive a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit, completing the graces of baptism and empowering us to live the Christian life as adults, with a more strict commission to spread and defend the faith. The Apostles received their Confirmation on Pentecost, and thereafter conveyed the sacrament to others by the laying on of hands by the bishop - just as it is done today.

What is the deal with baptism while still a child? It seems as though you do not have a choice to be Catholic when your parents take you to be baptized at such an early age.

A: The Church founded by Jesus Christ has always baptized children, because Jesus Himself said that no-one can enter the kingdom without baptism (John 3:5). He also said that one must become as a little child in order to possess the kingdom (Matt 18:3; 19:14) It is apparent then that little children must be eligible for that which is necessary to possess the kingdom, namely baptism. The novel 16th century view that baptism is something we do to demonstrate our commitment to God is plainly false. The 2,000 year old belief of the Christian Church is that baptism is a sacrament - something God does to us, which conveys grace and changes us spiritually and permanently. Of course salvation is a choice. Membership in the Church is not synonymous with salvation; but it places us in the will of God and the fountain of grace which will enable us to choose salvation when we attain the age of reason.

Paul, I thank you so much for your response. I found the answers clear and they helped me understand more about your beliefs on baptism and confirmation.

I must object though to your comments. Ephesians 1:13 says this (in the New Living Translation) "And now you have heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit , whom he promised long ago." Therefore, the Bible tells me that with the exception of the Apostles on the day of Penecost, the Holy Spirit comes at acceptance of Christ. I see no evidence of the Spirit being gained by the laying on of hands by a a priest, a sinful and fallible individual just like the rest of us. Why do you believe that the Spirit comes by a priest?

I can definitely see why you would think that Baptism is necessary for salvation. John 3:5 says that "No one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and of the Spirit." However, the verse afterwards tells of that the water part is referring to being born of a mother which was brought up by Nicodemus in verse 4. Verse 6 says, "Humans can reproduce only human life (referring to water or 'man') but the Holy Spirit gives new life from Heaven." Also notice that the references in verse 6 to water and Spirit go in the same order they are mentioned in verse 5. Also, verse 5 says "born of water". Jesus explains how birth is related to salvation but how does birth relate to Baptism?

When Jesus said that you must become as a little child in Matthew 18:3, he explains in verse 4 that he is talking about humility. As for Matthew 19:14, I honestly do not have a good answer!! My opinion though is that he was referring back to humility.

I hope that none of my answers came off as rude or insensitive. If they did, I in no way intentioned them to be so. I have another question though. You said that salvation is a choice. What do you believe that salvation actually is? Does it produce a personal relationship with Christ? Is it a choice that leads to heaven?

Thank you so much for responding. Aaron Briggs

-- Aaron Briggs (s1292093@cedarville.edu), September 21, 2003.

[Topping for Paul, because two days have passed since Aaron posted his message. Paul, you may not have noticed that Aaron rebutted your previous reply to him, and he asked new questions too. If you are extremely busy and want someone else to reply, please mention that.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.

You ask: "the Bible tells me that with the exception of the Apostles on the day of Penecost, the Holy Spirit comes at acceptance of Christ. I see no evidence of the Spirit being gained by the laying on of hands by a a priest, a sinful and fallible individual just like the rest of us. Why do you believe that the Spirit comes by a priest?"

A: Because the priest is God's appointed minister. A minister, by definition, does not act by his own authority, but acts in an official capacity as a representative of a higher authority. Therefore, spiritual gifts whjich come FROM God often come THROUGH the ministry of His priests. Please consider the following passages ...

- Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw THAT THE SPIRIT WAS BESTOWED THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES' HANDS, he offered them money (Acts 8:17-18)

- And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying (Acts 19:6)

- Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. (1 Timothy 4:14)

The same Church in which these recorded events occurred still maintains the same practices given to it by its founder, Jesus Christ. Why would it do otherwise? If it abandoned the beliefs and practices the Lord bestowed upon it, it could no longer claim to be the one Church Jesus founded for all men. It would then be simply a manmade church which attempts to follow Jesus Christ by its own standards, not His.

You ask: "I can definitely see why you would think that Baptism is necessary for salvation. John 3:5 says that "No one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and of the Spirit." However, the verse afterwards tells of that the water part is referring to being born of a mother which was brought up by Nicodemus in verse 4. Verse 6 says, "Humans can reproduce only human life (referring to water or 'man') but the Holy Spirit gives new life from Heaven." Also notice that the references in verse 6 to water and Spirit go in the same order they are mentioned in verse 5. Also, verse 5 says "born of water". Jesus explains how birth is related to salvation but how does birth relate to Baptism?"

A: Both common sense and the plain sequence of the text preclude any such interpretation. From the common sense perspective, Jesus here is speaking of what a man MUST DO in order to enter the kingdom. He tells Nicodemus that he must be "born of water and the spirit". Do you really think that Jesus would tell a man he must EXIST in order to be saved? That's kind of self-evident, don't you think? If being born of water means physical birth, then that's what Jesus is saying here. If you were never born, you can't enter the kingdom! Well, no kidding! Besides, Nicodemus was already born! So why would Jesus tell him that being born was something he had to do if he wished to enter the kingdom? Obviously, that cannot be what Jesus meant.

Apart from such logical necessity, the passage from John 3 specifically indicates that Jesus is not talking about physical birth. Look at how it progresses ...

Verse 2: Nicodemus acknowledges that Jesus is from God, indicating his desire to receive what Jesus has been preaching about (salvation) ...

Verse 3: Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be BORN AGAIN if he wishes to enter the kingdom, that is, be saved ...

Verse 4: Nicodemus is confused because he MISTAKENLY thinks Jesus is speaking about physical birth! He says, in effect, "I'm already born! How can I do that again?"

Verse 5: Jesus corrects his misunderstanding. Jesus tells him, in effect, "No, Nicodemus, you misunderstand me; I am NOT speaking of physical birth when I say you must be born again; RATHER, I am speaking of being born of water and the Spirit!"

Nicodemus's confusion is due to Jesus' use of the term "born again", which we know has NOTHING to do with physical birth, other than the fact of our existence.. Therefore, Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus in verse 5 is necessarily an explanation of the term "born again" - nothing else. "Born again" means "born of water and the Spirit" - that's what Jesus tells him. Then, in verse 6, He continues ... "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." In other words, "the birth YOU were speaking of, Nicodemus, is NOT the new birth I am speaking of. The birth YOU spoke of happens through the flesh. The birth I am speaking of - being "born again" - is spiritual, and happens NOT through the flesh, but through water and the Spirit".

You ask: When Jesus said that you must become as a little child in Matthew 18:3, he explains in verse 4 that he is talking about humility. As for Matthew 19:14, I honestly do not have a good answer!! My opinion though is that he was referring back to humility.

A: Well, in sense he was referring to humility, but not just to some hind of humble "feeling"; rather, to humility in action through repentance. In Acts 2:38, Peter tells the people (adult sinners) ... "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins". What Peter is telling them here is the same thing Jesus told them ... "Be humble enough to turn away from sin and regain your lost innocence through repentance, thereby becoming like little children, so that you too may be baptized, just as they are, in their innocence".

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 23, 2003.

First off, I apologize for not responding right away. The past week has been quite hectic with many things to do.

Second, Paul, no offense, but you did not completely answer my question. I asked why you believed that a fallible and sinful man could transfer the Holy Spirit. You gave good evidence where Simon saw the Holy Spirit given by the “laying on of hands” of an Apostle. This however was a different case. An Apostle, one who has seen Christ (1 Chr. 9:1), was given this power. Do you agree or disagree that the Apostles were given this power? The Apostles are now dead. Notice that all the accounts of the Holy Spirit being given by a person are through the Apostles. I think that maybe this argument goes deeper than I realized. Why is the priest better than you? Does God view him holier than you for some reason? 1 Tim 3:1 gives the qualifications for a priest, minister, bishop, whatever you want to call him. Nowhere in there do you find a qualification that is Divinely brought. They are all things that can be done by you or I. Let me try some reason: Suppose a person in a remote area finds a Bible and begins to read. The person believes and is saved. No priest is near him for hundreds of miles. Is God then discriminatory towards him because he has no priest around? The Comforter is therefore not sent to him because he does not live anywhere near a church or priest. He does not then have the power that other Christians have, is this true? He believed in the same fashion as other Christians, right? Romans 8:9-10 clearly state that anyone who does not have the Spirit is not of Christ. Verse 11 clearly states that if you have Christ, the Spirit is in you and then the Father will save you. So if your theory is true that a person, who believes but has not yet been to see a priest or cannot get there, is he then on his way to heaven? John 14:6 says that no one obtains access to the Father through anyone but by Christ. Please read Galatians 4:4-6. Also, the first part of Galatians chapter 3 asks us “Did you receive the Spirit through the works of the law (something physical that man can do) or by faith?

Baptism is the same issue. According to you, this man cannot be saved because there is no church for miles to baptize him. Again, you did not answer another question, how can birth relate to baptism? In your last response, you said that essentially verse 5 says "No, Nicodemus, you misunderstand me; I am NOT speaking of physical birth when I say you must be born again; RATHER, I am speaking of being born of water and the Spirit!" However, verse five says none of this. It only says that except a man be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. I am not sure where exactly you got what is quoted above. Verses 4-6 deal with distinguishing Spiritual birth from physical birth. It is not requiring a physical act. As I said before, Ephesians 4 says that it is by God’s grace, through or faith that we are saved, not of physical things. Also, refer again to Galatians 3:2. Please do not confuse Spiritual Baptism (or being born of the Spirit) with physical baptism.

To you Paul and to others who may be reading, I warn you against anyone who puts any other limitations on Salvation besides faith and Grace. If you must be baptized or have hands laid on you, then Salvation is given partially by man, not wholly given by God.

-- Aaron Briggs (s1292093@cedarville.edu), September 27, 2003.

Sorry! I forgot to tack this onto my last post. I warn everyone to be leary of those who think that only one denomination will make it into heaven. Catholic, Presyterian, Anglican, whatever, none are better than another and none can give Salvation or anything else spiritual. Please study the Scriptures and find Truth; do not trust what I or anyone else (priest or parishoner) says.

-- Aaron Briggs (s1292093@cedarville.edu), September 27, 2003.

Aaron,

There is only one true Church -Catholic. Why don't you put down your 'reasoning' and faithfully embrace Truth...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), September 27, 2003.

You call this logic?

Let me try some reason: Suppose a person in a remote area finds a Bible and begins to read. The person believes and is saved. No priest is near him for hundreds of miles.

Uh, the Bible didn't just appear. Some poor sinful monk in his small cell painstakingly transcribed the Gospel, the Scriptures, God's inspirations on that Bible that has found itself on that remote area. Suddenly, the Bible has some miraculous power to exists without man's power to compile it, maintain it, or teach it? Amazing. I am beginning to understand "bibldoltry"--Sola Scriptura. Just, Amazing!

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.kom), September 27, 2003.

Thanks to those who responded. Problems though: Tell me why the Catholic church is supposedly the one true church. Does that mean that other churches are false. I ascribe allegiance to no one except Christ. I Chorinthians 1:11-13 talks about identifying with others yourself spiritually with anyone or thing besides Christ. It sounds to me that you may be trusting in a religon or the words of men to save you. I plead with you, study the Bible for yourself and find truth for yourself. There is a true Church, that of Christ. Whether Evangelical, Catholic, Methodist, or Lutheran, all must give an account for what they believe, not for what their church said. Note about the "reasoning". I in no way intended to try to fit my ideas into the Bible. It should definitely be the other way around! I encourage people to think about things because we are to "compare Scripture with Scripture" and with that comes thinking. Thought and meditation helps us discern between the truth and fallacies. Note 2Tim. 2:15 where we are commanded to study the Bible. Who studies without thinking?

Rod, Bibles do not just come from missionaries or priests. They can be passed down from relatives, left by a traveler, maybe left by a missionary who came came 50 years ago. Romans talks about how God revealed himself through nature. A person, in a remote area, could obtain a Bible any number of ways.

Titus 3:5 says "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us...". Again, please be leary of anyone who adds to God's plan for Salvation. It cannot be had by anyting we do except total faith in Christ.

Please do not take anyting I say here to be haughty or rude. I speak with humility because I too am human and wuite fallible.

Thanks to those who read and have gorgeous night!!!

-- Aaron Briggs (s1292093@cedarville.edu), September 27, 2003.

Aaron,

Where are you getting your history lessons from, the Myopia History Channel? You are going to be extremely surprised with what you may discover if you go to the right sources for answers. There may also be a risk of tumbling your entire false foundation of belief system if you continue to deny the history of the Bible. Those men that you are defaming are the very ones who have provided the Bible you have in your hands. Study the versions and translations, then follow the paper trail all the way back to the Catholic Church. Stop with your myopic perceptions.

rod..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

Rod, I am sorry that you feel this way. But no matter how many times you refer to what I have said (or typed :)) as a "visual impairment", I cannot change the truth. Thank you so much, though, for reading what I have posted.

-- Aaron Briggs (s1292093@cedarville.edu), September 27, 2003.

Rod, I am sorry that you feel this way.

Don't feel sorry.

But no matter how many times you refer to what I have said (or typed :)) as a "visual impairment", I cannot change the truth.

No one can change the truth. The truth is unchangable. Did you think you have the power to change the truth? I don't think so.

Thank you so much, though, for reading what I have posted.

You are welcome, but have you considered what I have suggested? Or, will you continue to keep blinders on? I'm not sure which is the lesser of two evils: blinders or myopia.

Aaron, I'm not trying to throw you off your horse.....well, ok, I am, but for your own well being. All you have to do is accept or reject what you find. I certainly am not going to cram it down your way of thinking. We can lead a horse to water, but some waters aren't worth drinking.

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.yoohoo), September 27, 2003.