Jesus called scriptures Holy, calling it "God's Word", in Matt. 15 and Mark 7. He said scripture was God's Truth in John 17:17.

Why, then, does the Catholic catechism contradict scripture in so many places? It sounds a lot like the conversation Jesus had with the Pharisees in Matt. 15 and Mark 7- Jesus precisely quoted scripture, calling it "God's Word", and then rebuked the Pharisees for spinning it, with their own catechisms (traditions). Read those 2 chapters carefully, and you'll see what I'm saying.

Also see this comparison of Catechism to the Bible and comment, please: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160cont.asp

This is what Chuck Colson, of Prison Fellowship Ministries, had to say about the absolute importance of scripture as the final authority: http://www.intouch.org/highlights/another_book_176293.html

-- Vera Plechash (verap1@earthlink.net), December 26, 2002

Answers

Dear Vera, Nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church could possibly conflict with anything in the New Testament, because both the Catechism and the New Testament are built upon Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church did not get its teachings from the Bible, because it existed for 350 years before the Bible was compiled. The Catholic Church got its teachings directly from the lips of Jesus Christ, and subsequently His Apostles. Where do you suppose the New Testament writers got their material for the epistles and gospels they wrote? They got it from the Holy Spirit, through the teaching of the Church. Where do you suppose Christians got their truth for the next 300 years, before the Bible was compiled? From the teaching of the Church, which got it from Jesus Christ. Where do you suppose Christians got their truth for the next 1200 years, when there was no printing press, and virtually no-one owned a Bible? From the preaching and teaching of the Church, which received it from the Holy Spirit. That's why the Bible calls the Church "The Pillar and Foundation of Truth". The truth rests on the Church. If you remove the pillars and the foundation, the truth collapses, and the fragmented fallout from that collapse is called denominational religion.The fact that the Church compiled some of its writings into a book does not change the Church's position as the sole Pillar and Foundation of truth. If it did, then scripture itself, which identifies the genuine Foundation of truth, would become untrue. In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 26, 2002.

Dear Vera, Notice that the Church founded by Jesus Christ has remained united in belief, just the way Jesus said He wanted it to be, for 2000 years, with the Bible fulfilling its proper role WITHIN the Church. Notice that the new manmade version of Christianity which was created by unauthorized founders a few hundred years ago - which attempts to force the Bible to be the foundation of truth, in spite of the fact that the Bible itself identifies the true Foundation of truth - has fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations - exactly the opposite of what Jesus desired for His Church. In view of this obvious and undeniable situation, how can you possibly say with a straight face that the Bible is the final authority? Would the final authority cause division in the Church, or unity? Would the final authority guide us to constant truth, or to thousands of conflicting views that cannot possibly be true?

In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 26, 2002.

Dear Vera,

The Church is the interpreter of scripture. Anyone who says they can interpret the Bible by themselves is not followinw the very Bible they speak of. 2 Peter 20-21 "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no human prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human being moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."

Also, 2 Peter 3:16 "speaking of all these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand, that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do to the other scriptures."

The Holy Spirit guides the Church to interpret scripture, because there are some things hard to understand.

I want to ask you, Where did the Bible come from? I know that the Gospels were written by the first apostles, but who was it that decided what books would make up the Canon of the Bible?

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.

Dear Vera,

I read the Jack Chick article, well, sone of them that were offered on the list, and having had past experiences with Chick literature, I wasn't suprised. I recommend that you not read that stuff anymore.

It was a ridiculous article, mainly in the way it quoted scripture and then said what it meant. For example:

"The Bible boldly declares that it is the only final authority:

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17 "

That statement is very far from what the scriptute says.

The article also talked about how the Bible is the only authority, and how tradition and the Church have no say.

According to the Bible, tradition is something to be followed:

2 Thess, 2:15 "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that were taught, either by oral statement or by a letter of ours."

As for the authority of the Church, I am having trouble finding the exact passage, but from memory in the Gospel of Matthew, it says that if you see your brother sinning, go to him in private and tell him his falt, if he does not listen to you, bring back a group of people and have them tell him his fault. If he does not listen to you, take him to the Church, and if he doesn't listen to the Church, treat him as you would a heathen.

Notice that the Bible never actually says scripture alone, and never even mentions the Bible, because the Bible didn't exist when its books were written and inspired.

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.

Dear Vera,

"Why, then, does the Catholic catechism contradict scripture in so many places? It sounds a lot like the conversation Jesus had with the Pharisees in Matt. 15 and Mark 7- Jesus precisely quoted scripture, calling it "God's Word", and then rebuked the Pharisees for spinning it, with their own catechisms (traditions). Read those 2 chapters carefully, and you'll see what I'm saying."

Remember that at the time the Jesus was speaking, the only scripture was the Old Testament, known then as the Torah. Therefore, we can logically conclude that he was referring to the Bible, because it wasn't around the time he preached.

Give me one doctrine the catechism teaches that contradicts scripture.

In Christ,

-- Andrew Boyd (andrewboyd100@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.

Calling your priests "Father":

Matt 23:9 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (NIV)

-- Joe (notvalidaddress@h.com), December 26, 2002.

Oh, I see, Joe.
So, when you fill out an official form and it states ...
Mother: __________________________________ ...
Father: __________________________________ ...
You fill in "God" on the second line, rather than the name of your mother's husband? You think that "Mr. Joe, Sr." is not your father?

One of many problems you Fundamentalists have is not knowing when to take biblical statements literally and when not to do so.

Vera, it is explicitly against the rules of the Moderator of this forum to push the garbage published by anti-Catholic bigots, such as Jack Chik. [Catholics, please avoid correctly spelling the names of professional anti-Catholics like Chik, because that draws doofuses by the dozen to this forum when the names are found via Internet search engines.]

Vera, this is a CATHOLIC forum. When you post a message, please identify yourself as a non-Catholic. It is especially improper for you to answer someone's question without saying that you are a Baptist. Otherwise, the questioner may rely on your answer as a Catholic reply. If you'd like to visit with us, you must follow the rules. Please read them in the opening post of this thread.

Merry Christmas.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.

Joe,

This reveals your ignorance, of the cultural situation of the Matthew reference and ignorance of St. Paul's descrption of himself as the "spiritual father" of believers in Corinth(1 COR 4:15 and Phil 10). Jesus is criticizing the arrogance of the Pharisees as they arrogated titles such as teacher and Father unto themselves, not meaning to apply it to all areas of life. St.Paul illustrates his understanding of spiritual leaders taking the role of "spiritual fathers." "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel",(1 Cor 4:15). This is precisley the reason that Catholics call priests father. Most protestants implicitly reconize what Jesus is doing for I would be willing to bet you Joey, that you do not know any Protestant family where the children are not encouaraged to call their daddy, father."

David

-- David (David@excite.com), December 26, 2002.

Thank you David...

If we Catholics are afoul for calling our priests as "father", then all Christians should then be saying, "thank you, biological sperm donor, for my stocking stuffings." And further, introducing our mother's husband as the person who donated a Y chromosome...not as our father...

-- Melissa Wilson (meanolemelissa@hotmail.com), December 26, 2002.

Jesus said:

in John 12:43--

"They (the Pharisees) loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. ..if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You'll be judged by what you do with the Word of God - the Bible.

Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do." - that's what Jesus said right after he quoted directly from Leviticus, calling it "God's Word".

-- VeraP (verap1@earthlink.net), December 27, 2002.

continued...

The scriptures -even the New Testament- were inspired, by Jesus Himself- he personally annointed specific men, like Paul, in Acts 9:38, to "bear His Name among the Gentiles". His Name=Word of God= Holy scripture.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Nowhere does God say that "the church" keeps writing and re-writing scripture. The Bible never changes- its laws and spiritual truths are forever. The scriptural canon was closed after the death of the apostles (first-hand witnesses to Jesus Christ). We needed no more new writings, to follow God faithfully. Didn't need the Rosary (AD1090), the Indulgences(AD1190), the canonization of dead saints (AD995) -- none of those catechismal additions to scripture made men more righteous.

God said "I am the Lord, I change not". The Catholic catechism has often changed, mostly because men worried about popular opinion and wanted RCC institutional control over men. ergo, no more believers partaking of the cup of communion(1414AD), priests could marry until 1050AD, etc etc.

The Bible clearly says that you need no one to teach you what it says- the Holy spirit's job is to teach scripture--Paul is speaking to garden variety believers in this passage:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it (the Holy spirit) hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

-- VeraP (verap1@earthlink.net), December 27, 2002.

Vera,

Who ever told you that the Church keeps rewriting scripture???? In fact, the Holy Catholic Church, and it ALONE, has preserved the holy scriptures from any change, ever since it first compiled the Bible. The Catholic Bible today does not differ from the original Bible by a single word. In contrast, the Protestant Bible is missing seven whole books and part of an eighth book, and has words conveniently inserted into the text by the founder of Protestantism, in an effort to support his new traditions. Here is where all attacks upon the original scriptures took place, not in the Catholic Church. You are right that the writing of scripture was finished at the death of the last Apostle (though the canon was not actually completed until 300 years later). That doesn't mean that NOTHING else will appear in the life of the Church.

None of the additional developments to Church life and worship that you mentioned are "additions to scripture". They are simply part of the ongoing life of God's People. They are not doctrines of the faith, and they do not conflict in any way with scriptural truth. What DOES conflict with Protestant scriptural truth though, is the scriptural "truth" of any other Protestant denomination! If you need no authority to teach you what the scriptures really say, how do you account for this sad situation?

In Christ, Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 27, 2002.

Dear Vera;

As soon as I saw the name "Jack Chick" the arch-Anti-Catholic, who will twist, churn, lie and deceive with his propaganda, I was immediately turned off. Since you are apparently a supportor of his, time spent trying to show you the truth would be time wasted, and since I don't have time to waste, this will be my only post to you.

Scripture could be the final say if there were only one interpretation. Actually, there is only one true interpretation; that being the interpretation by the church that Jesus Christ himself founded, with the truths espoused by the apostles and their successors. All others who claim "to interpret the truth," with new- fangled notions and pet theologies, are thieves, liars and deceivers, pied pipers whistling a different tune, and leading millions of innocent people astray.

Your king, Jack Chick, is one of many who has shaken angry fists, with teeth clenched in diabolical hatred, at Christ's Church. May God have mercy on his soul!

The truth is, Vera, that since the Reformation, MAN has attempted his own religion based on "scripture," hence we have 30,000 denominations all vying for the title "The Church." But there is only one church with a pedigree -- The Catholic Church. Perhaps you would do well to read the actual writings of the Church fathers to find the truth, instead of wrapping yourself in the mantel of a deceiver.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2002.

Isn't it interesting, Joe, how on several occasions Paul refers to himself as a "father" to the people!? Hmmm. Was he disobeying Jesus? Or maybe Jesus meant something else...

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), December 27, 2002.

Hello,

As a newcomer to this fantastic catholic forum... it is so wonderful for me to see such fervent, devout, and knowledegable defenders of the Catholic Church -- the one true church of Christ. Amen!

On this subject... There is an enlightening little $2 booklet anyone can pick up from Tan Publications (can buy and/or call and request a free catalog at 1 800 437 5876). The booklet is called "Scripture Alone?: 21 Reasons to Reject Sola Scripture". It goes through the classic reasons (some of which were already mentioned by a few posters here in this thread) about why the Protestant dogma of "sola scripture" is "simply wrong, unscriptural, is man-made, and prevents Protestants from ever having a firm doctrinal foundation." (I quoted directly from the back cover of this booklet.).

This booklet goes into more detail about: how the Protestant Bible is missing seven entire books, the Church produced the Bible and not vice versa, the first Christians did not even have a complete Bible, the Canon of the Bible was not even setttled until the 4rth century, no original Bible manuscripts exist today, extant manuscripts contain thousands of variations, there are hundreds of different Bible versions, how scripture itself states that it is insufficient of itself, the Bible was not even in print until the 15th century, the doctrine of Sola Scripture arose in the 16th century, it produces the bad fruits of division and disunity, it sprang from Luther's own emotional problems, etc.

Again, I quoted from the back cover of this Catholic booklet. It really is a great little booklet... and reading it has helped my reaffirm my own believe in the infallibility of the teachings of the Church.

Sincerely,

Robert P

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), December 27, 2002.

Thanks, Robert. That sounds like a great booklet -- of benefit to both Catholics and non-Catholics. Glad you're enjoying the forum.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 28, 2002.

Vera, In addition to all the above answers, the Catholic Church has been called to go beyond the Bible in certain restricted ways.

Has your pastor ever had a wonderful idea of the interpetition of certain scriptures or got one from someone else? Cool! But how does he know if it is valid? Well he can just try it out on his congregation. Or he can do research, including learning the original Hebrew and Aramic and Greek and Latin and then reading the original in the original toung. He could research the various bibles both litteral tranlastion and translations that try to translate the meaning of obscure 2000 year old slang. But he could have had a valid insight. Now imagine that 2000 years of insights were available to you. That would be awesome. Some of the people that are referenced did come after the time of St. Paul, but their resolution of conflicts and problems was often strokes of Genius. And the developed ways to check these insights against each other.

Lets take another subject, math not religion. It took many 100's of years to get to the Calculus. Along that time it took the inspried work of many workers with many skills to advance the math. Religion can be similar.

Religions do not change? Check the Bible for the Jews ideas, and check the dates of when each chapter was likely written. It changed from having God as a plural word to the law giver's justice and restrictions to people contemporary with Jesus who have rather similar ideas of justice, mercy, love. To get the latter you will have to access the Talmud, but it can be done. Or check the later and minor prophets.

Religions do not change? the concept of the Trinity as considered today was a thorny issue that was settled centurarys after Paul died. Ditto the mutual 100% man and 100% godhood of Jesus.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@juno.com), December 29, 2002.