Does the church have its policy about gay sexgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
iam a gay, well does the catholic church has anypolicy regarding this , if so what , i sit against the scriptures, if so where in th escriptures it it meant. well if its a sin against god I would love to stop the bad practise, but someon ehelp me out on this Fernandez
-- fred Fernandez (freedaferns@rediffmail.com), December 29, 2002
Fred this is taken from the catechism of the catholic church.Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. Hope this helps.
-- Andrew.M.Tillcock (Drewmeister7@aol.com), December 29, 2002.
Dear Fred:
Don't ask for the Catholic ''policy'' on anything. We have no obligation to favor or reject policies.It is sin which separates us from God, not being ''gay''. Abnormal relations are sinful for men and women because they are forbidden by God. The Church doesn't make this policy, the Church upholds God's commandments.
You may be tempted in many ways to commit a sin. Homosexual sex is just one; and it's even an unhealthy sin. However, your soul is never homosexual or heterosexual. Your soul is either guilty for sins committed, or forgiven for sins committed.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 29, 2002.
Continued:Do you follow that logic?
Your soul can be restored to the innocence of a baby once you repent perfectly of your sins. All sins, not just of the flesh. You would be as white as snow again; in the sanctifying grace which Christ merited for us on the cross. --But you must have true sorrow for all your sins. You must ''turn away'', repent of sin. Then you must live responsibly again. Like a child of God lives; one who realises his life may turn out short. He could leave this world very soon; and never again have the opportunity to repent. Or; like some, he might live a long, sinful life. If he dies at the end without changing, he would be damned.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 29, 2002.
Continued,
Nobody forces a man with homosexual tendencies to live in sin. His soul is capable of loving God just as well as a ''straight'' person loves God. You are the equal of all straights, Fred-- as far as your capacity to love God.This is given you by grace; if you have the will to accept. If you reject the grace God gives you, and continue to sin, you'll be damned.
Not because Catholics say so; or the ''religious right''. Because God says so. He is your Creator. He alone knows why you were born ''gay''. It was in His own infinite wisdom, and no other.
But He gives you the means to persevere in faith and the pure life. He expects you to battle with temptation. It isn't always so easy. But He knows your weakness, and He has His divine love to give you. He will help you, if you only love Him in return. --You surely won't be the first one, nor the only one.
Christ died for you too. Let His grace protect you from this world, Fred. Just place all your faith in Jesus Christ. Repent of your sin, and be holy in the sight of God. You can do it if you want to.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 29, 2002.
Hello, FredDo you always sign your posts with your "sur name"? Are you Catholic?
Why don't you tell me more about yourself, and I would be glad to offer my opinion as a Catholic to help you out? We do have older threads that have all the Biblical information that you could want.
Are you in a relationship at the present time? If so, how do you know which male will be the masculine or femmine one? Its just not natural what you are doing. Please don't forget you and "Junior" are made in the Image of Our Lord.
God bless you.
David S
-- David (David@excite.com), December 29, 2002.
PART 1: The Catechism is a great start (see first posted reply) but is quite limited in its scope on the subject. The Church has been careful to not get too involved in the details of this (just like they are limited in the exact acts between a husband and wife in their bedroom). The Church acknowledges that homosexuality exists, and has always existed. The vocation of marriage between a man and women and how it relates to family and children is sacred and can never be compared to the commitment between two men. Having said that, homosexuality is not a sin nor a defect of a person. Rather, it is an "objective disorder" (as opposed to a "subjective disorder"). What that means is that the homosexual (subject) is not culpable for "being homosexual" and so homosexuality is not, in itself, a sin. It is the object that the person desires that is out of order, but the homosexual is not at fault for this. He or she can however be at fault for flaming lust but that is true for heterosexuals too. This "order" comes from the philosophy of natural law, more so than from Scripture itself. Clearly a man's body is made for a woman's body and vice versa.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 20, 2003.
PART 2: Scripture's references to homosexuality refer to society as a whole and not generally to homosexuals as individuals, it was addressing issues that there was a lot of promiscuity and boys were used by men etc. The tricky part for the Church is getting involved in the exact details - is it O.K. for a wife to provide oral stimulation to a man during foreplay etc.? The homosexual person is called to be chaste (but then again we all are). One challenge is that the commitment between two homosexuals is not grounded in family so they are susceptible to never settling down and being promiscuous. The bottom line is to live as chaste a life as possible but be realistic about it. To expect an individual to automatically be celibate simply because he or she is gay is naive and easy for heterosexuals to say but not do. This places enormous stress and pain on the homosexual person. An analogy is to expect male adolescence to never masturbate or to induce enormous guilt about it - is that really realistic and healthy for the individual? So, my advice, would be if you are in a committed relationship and can not be celibate, stay in that relationship. Let your (well formed) conscience be your guide and not let societal induced guilt be your tormentor. Pray and go to confession for guidance too.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 20, 2003.
"To expect an individual to automatically be celibate simply because he or she is gay is naive and easy for heterosexuals to say but not do."Chris, I would qualify that by stating that the Church -- as taught by Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ - expects EVERYONE to remain celibate unless they're married heterosexually. That applies whether you're gay or straight.
Fred, I would recommend a terrific book by Father Benedict Groeschel (he appears on EWTN sometimes) called "The Courage to Be Chaste." He explains what the Church's teaching is and gives a lot of excellent advice for both gay and straight people who are trying to follow the Church's teachings.
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 20, 2003.
Yes, I agree. However, we're talking celibate for life with no choice of marriage or any type of physical relationship. If a homosexual married someone of the opposite sex they would be living a lie, unfair to the spouse. Sorta really really unfair don't you think? The Church lays out its official teaching and purposefully does not get into the details. Look at how the Church deals with the matter in Ireland. A compassionate acceptance. The pain and distress that a homosexual person experiences when they can never live up to that expectation is not merciful. As I mentioned before, make the analogy with a male adolescent and masturbation. By not addressing the reality of the situation, the individual will become so consumed with guilt and worthlessness that they will be maladjusted when it comes to sex. Many homosexuals just give up and become promiscuous and self-destructive as a result. To cause such pain and destruction is not the work of God. I have spoken with many homosexuals regarding this and the horrible pain and loneliness is simply not right.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 20, 2003.
I usually do not like to get involved in these kind of threads, but I must say this. Homosexuality is not something you are born with, it is the way in which the devil chooses to tempt some people, because he knows they will be weak there. Saying it is something they cannot overcome, is denying that God will give each and every one of us the grace we need to overcome sin. God has promised that He will always provide us with ample grace to overcome every sin we commit. It is us, and us alone, that commits sin of our own free will. We can never make excuses for sin by saying it can't be helped, I was born that way.That's like saying, well since it is in my nature to be quick tempered, then I can't help sinning in anger. But anger is one of the seven deadly sins. And if I couldn't help sinning in anger, just because it is in my nature to be quick tempered, then wouldn't my sin of anger be God's fault since he made me that way? You see, that's ludicrous! Faulty logic. God can never be held accountable for our sins. But he will hold us accountable, even if His justice has to overrule His mercy.
Something interesting to do research into would be this: do a search for Stephen Bennett on the internet. While he is Protestant, his story is still interesting. He was homosexual, left that lifestyle and has been happily married for some time. He claims this is possible for all gay people. I believe it is. Otherwise, if not, what good is the grace of God?
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), January 20, 2003.
The Church makes it quite clear that homosexuality is NOT a sin, nor is the PERSON defective or in anyway culpable for his or her homosexuality. There are many Christian groups and some misguided Catholic groups that make homosexuals feel as if they are defective or that their very selves are a sin. Homosexual activities are another matter. Such activities are objectively judged as sinful. However, the Church, in Its mercy, makes clear that for homosexuals (the subject) their individual culpability regarding this can only be judged by God. The Church does not wish to insight a misguided "witch hunt" against homosexuals, they have enough struggles as it is so why add to it? Note I am not advocating homosexual activities, rather I am calling for mercy and understanding toward homosexuals as they work through their life struggles. Again, I make an analogy with a male adolescent and masturbation. 99.999% of male adolescents masturbate. How would you teach what is moral in this regard knowing that the male adolescent will fail??? Would you saddle them with such guilt and worthlessness that they reach dispair? Or would you provide guidance to temper their actions and guide it to a greater good? To expect someone to be perfectly celebate for life simply because one is homosexual is simply not realistic and does not take into account the human condition. I just am tired of heterosexuals preaching something that they could never leave up to and putting a guilt trip on homosexuals when they fail. We need more mercy. But for the Grace of God there goes I.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
CORRECTION: I just am tired of heterosexuals preaching something that they could never leave up to and putting a guilt trip on homosexuals when they fail. We need more mercy. But for the Grace of God there goes I.SHOULD READ: I just am tired of heterosexuals preaching something that they could never live up to and putting a guilt trip on homosexuals when they fail. The world needs to be more merciful toward those who are homosexual. But for the Grace of God there goes I. I have spoken with many homosexuals who felt alienated from Christianity because of judgemental Christians. That is a shame. Even the saying love the sinner but hate the sin with respect to homosexuals is not merciful enough.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
To expect someone to be perfectly celebate for life simply because one is homosexual is simply not realistic and does not take into account the human condition.Have priests and nuns (and all religious) not remained celibate? It is realistic, and the minute we start looking at it as not being realistic, it gives rise to promiscuity and immorality. God does not expect the impossible.
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), January 21, 2003.
Well, those people choose to be celebate and took vows of celebacy. It was a matter of their freewill. Not to get off the subject or in anyway slam the Church (I know many absolutely amazing and holy people in the Church) and those that serve Her, however, there are a fair number of those who took a vow of celebacy were given the Grace to live celebate and yet have broken that vow. According to some studies, the percentage is not negligible. So, even then the lack of human intimacy is difficult. What I am saying is be compasionate and understanding toward those that are homosexual. They should not be scapegoated when those that judge them have a plank in their own eye. Should the moral truth be told? Absolutely. But again, I make an analogy with a male adolescent and masturbation. 99.999% of male adolescents masturbate. How would you teach what is moral in this regard knowing that the male adolescent will fail??? Would you saddle them with such guilt and worthlessness that they reach dispair? Or would you provide guidance to temper their actions and guide it to a greater good?
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
How would you teach what is moral in this regard knowing that the male adolescent will fail??? Would you saddle them with such guilt and worthlessness that they reach dispair? Or would you provide guidance to temper their actions and guide it to a greater good?But by teaching what is moral in this regard, you are providing guidance to temper their actions and guide them to a greater good. You see how easy that is?
One that is in a position to teach or guide others (parents, counselors, teachers, etc.) have a responsibility to teach what is right. The person may fall, as we all do at times, but by doing that you have done your best in the eyes of God. Do you want to stand before God on judgement day, and be guilty of leading others astray? It will be terrible enough to be before Him and be guilty of our own actions, much less to have been the cause or encouragement of other's actions.
We must always be compassionate to the sinner in the hopes that there is still a chance for repentance, but we must never be compassionate to the sin, which will take them to hell.
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), January 21, 2003.
Again, I must comment. Do you say to a male adolscent that you're going to go to hell if you ever masturbate? No you do not. You instruct them on their human dignity and respect for their own person and that of others. You tell them about the good in human sexuality, how to express it in the best way, and how it is part of God's design and plan. If you review what I have written previously, you will know that I am not saying go out and fornicate and commit homosexual acts, far from it. Rather, just as the Catechism alludes to "By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection." In other words, this instruction recognizes that for the vast majority of homosexuals there will be stumbles, for some a lot of stumbles. It is a call for compassion and mercy. I am sort of insulted that you imply that I would fail to teach to anyone the moral Truth in this regard. Similarly, what do we teach heterosexual married couples about oral sex or manual manipulation??? I guess many just turn a blind eye to that (probably because they do it) but quickly and absolutely condemn the same acts among homosexuals without the slightest bit of mercy. I think it is time that everyone face up to the issue and stop dancing around it. The perversions commited by heterosexuals should also be examined.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
Moreover, the Church in re-emphasising the unique and important role of marriage and family in God's plan instructed:"In fact, the Catholic Church teaches emphatically that individuals and society must respect the basic human dignity of all persons, including those with a homosexual orientation. Homosexual persons have a right to and deserve our respect, compassion, understanding and defense against bigotry, attacks and abuse."
The bigotry that some Christians express toward homosexuals is a grave sin against human dignity.
Did you know that in the early centuries of the Church, there were Christian ceremonies which affirmed a commitment between two people of the same sex? These were in no way at the same level or sanctity of a marriage between a husband and a wife. Far from it. Rather it did recognized the relationship albeit at a nonsacremental level.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
"Do you want to stand before God on judgement day, and be guilty of leading others astray?"Of course one teaches the moral Truth. I have never said otherwise.
Likewise do you want to stand before God on judgement day and be guilty of causing horrible torment toward homosexuals? The Church clearly instructs compassion and understanding.
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
Chris, you wrote: "The bigotry that some Christians express toward homosexuals is a grave sin against human dignity."Would you agree that there's also bigotry expressed by homosexuals against Christians? A woman in Chicago was recently KILLED because she made what her murderer construed as a "hateful" remark - she actually said that she didn't understand why he slept with men. So - instead of just telling her to go away and leave her alone, he killed her. And what's really scary is that a lot of otherwise intelligent people are saying, hey, she deserved it.
What is your opinion about that? Would you agree that Christians who are opposed to homosexuality have the right to say so, without being murdered?
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 21, 2003.
"What is your opinion about that? Would you agree that Christians who are opposed to homosexuality have the right to say so, without being murdered?"To be blunt, that is a really kooky thing to even ask. Of course murder is wrong - duh.
How can you call yourself a Christian and be opposed to homosexuality? The Church clearly instructs that homosexuality is NOT a sin. Rather homosexual ACTS are sinful with the judgement of culpability reserved to God alone.
On a personal note, boy am I glad you are not a confessor. (I'm sorry for the personal remark, but wake up and examine your own faults and weaknesses. They should teach oneself compassion, mercy, and humility).
-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.
Post #1:Chris writes:
"Do you say to a male adolscent that you're going to go to hell if you ever masturbate? No you do not. You instruct them on their human dignity and respect for their own person and that of others."
Hold on, Chris. Maybe you're not Catholic. If not, you should know that sexual sins like masturbation are mortal sins. This means that the Catholic Church teaching indeed teaches that one will go to hell if they have committed this sin without asking God for forgiveness.
Telling people that they're going to go to hell for their sins isn't the most diplomatic way to educate sinners; but neither may we sugarcoat their sins to the point that no remorse exists for acts contrary to the will of God. Today, we understand that addictions (including sexual addictions) sometimes take hold (sorry for the pun) of a person to the point that their free will is not really there. From the Catechism, paragraph 2352:
"To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability."
So, sinners may be less culpable; but, at some point, overusing this reasoning makes none of us guilty for any of our sinful actions.
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), January 21, 2003.
Post #2:Chris writes:
"Did you know that in the early centuries of the Church, there were Christian ceremonies which affirmed a commitment between two people of the same sex? These were in no way at the same level or sanctity of a marriage between a husband and a wife. Far from it. Rather it did recognized the relationship albeit at a nonsacremental level."
I have heard rumors of this; but no one ever provides any proof. Could you show me an ancient Church document or Church Father's text which supports what you are saying. In any event, I have little doubt that these "relationships" have nothing to do with homosexuality.
If you look at Catholic practices today, diocesan priests make a special commitment to their bishops. Out of context, one could say that this is an official "commitment" between two men. Obviously, this is total spin.
I'd be interested in seeing the documents you provide that expound on these supposed ancient "same-sex" commitments.
In Christ,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), January 21, 2003.