We know from Scripture that when we get to heaven, we will "be like angels". In fact, it is Scripturally stated that we will see things which Angels would long to know!

So, now I come to you with question:

In Johns Revelation we see the Angels lifting up the insense, which are the prayers of the saints, to God. So it is Angels who recieve our prayers and present them before God. Of course we all know that Jesus is the one mediator between God and man, but this is not in contradiction. Jesus is the ONE person who brought God and man together! And it is through Jesus that our prayers are heard by God.

However, it is apperant Scripturally that Angles are the ones who present our prayers to God. This indicates that they hear our prayers too!

Also, in the Book of Tobit (which was taken out of the Bible, along with 6.5 others):

Tob. 12:15, I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

So, here we have it again! There are angels who hear our prayers and present them to God.

Therefore, my question is this - If there are angels who hear our prayers and present them to God, and if we are to become like angels (and in fact know things that they don't), then why is it that many Protestants argue that those in Heaven (particularly Mary) cannot hear our prayers!?

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 13, 2003

Answers

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

bump

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 13, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Angels traditionally have knowledge of every occurrence on earth. This absolute knowledge together with the absolute discernment that angels possess and the doing of God's will as their sole purpose would indeed make angels wise.

- James R. Lewis and Evelyn Dorothy Oliver, "Angels A to Z"

From "Angels Around Us." Compiled by Karen Maguire. Reprinted by arrangement with Andrews McMeel Publishing.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

MaryLu writes:

"Angels traditionally have knowledge of every occurrence on earth. This absolute knowledge together with the absolute discernment that angels possess and the doing of God's will as their sole purpose would indeed make angels wise."

I thought that angels exist outside of time. Is that correct? If so, does that mean that angels also have a perfect knowledge of the future, too?

I'm not an "angel" expert. :-(

Thanks for the help,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), January 14, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Disconcerting text about Angels:

Do you not know that we will judge angels? (1 Cor 6,3)

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), January 14, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Mateo,

I didn't say those words...if you notice there are authors' names on the bottom of that statement. They consider themselves angel experts.

I am not an angel expert either - I just believe in them.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 14, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

MaryLu,

I think you may have seen something in my post that I didn't intend.

When I wrote that I'm not an angel expert, I meant nothing more than to state that I'm not at all knowledgeable about angels.

I vaguely remember being told that angel's exist outside of time. By that, I mean that they and God are in an "Eternal Now." If that is true, then all of time (past, present, and future) are in that "Eternal Now."

So that's why I asked if angels know the future, too. I was just curious.

God Bless you,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), January 14, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

ANGELS - "have knowledge of every occurrence on earth" and "absolute knowledge"

I believe that I would have to disagree that angels have absolute knowledge and knowledge of every occurrence on earth, because that would make them equal with God in all knowing.

As for claiming that angels present prayers of saints to God, so why can't Mary?

Just because the Scripture says that we will be like angels, does not mean that we will [1] have the same function nor [2] be identical to them.

We need a little more facts to try and prove that Mary does the work of the angels now.

Angels are aloud to come and go with the commands of God, but the Scripture never claims that people that go to Heaven come back and forth like angels do.

God Bless!

-- Tim, the Baptist (tlw97@cox.net), January 14, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

But Scripture doesn't say we DON'T either.

So, now I guess the question is... If something is not in Scripture, can it still be true?

And why discount the idea that Angels COULD know everything? Is it above God to CREATE something with this capability? Is it this sole capability that makes God God? The one and only capability that distinguishes God from anything else is that He and only He has the ability to CREATE something from nothing, and to destroy everything at will. And even then, could God give this capability to someone else? Sure. But God could take this capability away. I wouldn't make the assumption that angels do or don't have certain capabilities, just because God possessed these abilities. That is like saying, well God sees the present, so we can't see the present because that would make us like God. No, no, no! God can do whatever He wants. We can't decide what angles can do, etc. based on what God can do. We can only know for certain that Angels are creation and God is Creator. No one is above God, and yet that dosn't mean they can't do what God gifts them to do (like see into the future).

And if no one knows the future, Tim, except for God - then explain how psychics (wrongfully and sinfully) use demons (fallen angels) or spirits (of dead humans) to tell the future.

2 Chronicles 33:6 [2 Chr 28:3] He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and [Lev 19:31; 20:27] dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.

God wouldn't have had to command the Israelites (in the OT) not to seek guidance from the dead (meaning souls of the dead - or evil spirits) if the dead didn't know things to come.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 15, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Jake,

"And why discount the idea that Angels COULD know everything?"

Simply, because something COULD BE doesn't mean it is. And wouldn't you agree that if something not covered in Scripture and there is no other way to verify it, that it would be best to ASSUME that it isn't instead of trying to ASSUME it is? Or, simply saying that you don't know and/or it isn't clear, instead of preaching and/or teaching it as fact and/or doctrine.

"And if no one knows the future, Tim, except for God - then explain how psychics (wrongfully and sinfully) use demons (fallen angels) or spirits (of dead humans) to tell the future."

Again, I did not say that Angels did not know things that we do not, for they are not held to time. But to ASSUME that they know all as God does, puts God on the level of His creation. That is not a good thing to do, Jake.

God Bless!

-- Tim, the Baptist (tlw97@cox.net), January 15, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Thought you might be interested in knowing that Peter Kreeft put out a book entitled "Angels and Demons: What do we really know about them" a while back, I would highly recommend it as it would definitely help answer some of your questions Jake. Also, I thought you might like to know his observation that angels do not know the future unless God tells them. He cites as a reason because "(I) ...only God is all-knowing; and (2) ...only the Author, the Creator, knows the whole play even before it's performed; and (3) because only God is entirely outside time so all things in time are present to him at once."

Again, I would highly recommend the book, you can find it at Ignatius Press.

God Bless

-- (seminarian@ziplip.com), January 15, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

"And wouldn't you agree that if something not covered in Scripture and there is no other way to verify it, that it would be best to ASSUME that it isn't instead of trying to ASSUME it is? Or, simply saying that you don't know and/or it isn't clear, instead of preaching and/or teaching it as fact and/or doctrine."

But this isn't an "assumption" in the sense that you make one. We hear it from the Church - who didn't assume anything. The Church knows certain things that you wouldn't, because within the Church we have recourse to Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

And Sem, I agree with you. I don't think I made the mistake of saying Angles know on their own authority. If they know anything it is because God gave them that gift, allowed them to know if you will. The same holds true for the Saints. The Church understands that they can hear our prayers, but not on their (the saints) own authority. It has been revealed to the Church through Scripture and Tradition that God permits them to hear our prayers.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 16, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

"I thought that angels exist outside of time. Is that correct? If so, does that mean that angels also have a perfect knowledge of the future, too? "

Actually the answer to this question is not really very complicated. "Time" as we know it and usually referred to in Scripture relates to and is part of matter. That is, time is matter in motion (think about that one a bit and you'll soon understand, the earth revolving around the sun, the movement of the hands of a clock, the growth of cells). Angels are purely spiritual beings and not matter, hence they are outside of "time." They can not know the future of the material world. Nor does God "know" the future in the purely predetermined sense either since each of us has freewill, but that is for another discussion.

-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 20, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

You mean, Chris, that if all motion in the universe were to suddenly stop, so that there was no "change" which could be measured, there would be no time? No time would pass?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Not to get overly technical, but atoms are always in motion, and must be so in order to exist. Therefore if ALL motion in the universe ceased, to the atomic and subatomic level, matter itself would cease to exist, and therefore so would time.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 20, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Woah...

Brainfreeze.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

If angels live outside of time, then someone would have to explain to me exactly how they (the fallen ones) possess people.

Actually, forget that. What I really want to know is if Procter & Gambler installed the demons into the ouija boards at the factory. Just kidding.

The question is, if angels live outside time, how is it that they influence the present? It is different than the question of how God does the same, since the angels are created beings with their own essences.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Angels do in fact live outside of time due to their purely spiritual nature. However, they have the power to interact with the material world even though they are not part of it and are not bound by it. This is how the fallen angels possess people, how they can make objects move, and do other things in the material world. The fallen angels can also interact with our spiritual nature too.

Here is somehting to really make you think. If Jesus and Mary are both in Heaven, body and soul, then are they bound by time since their body is in fact material???

-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Paul writes:

"Therefore if ALL motion in the universe ceased, to the atomic and subatomic level, matter itself would cease to exist, and therefore so would time."

Emerald responds:

"Brainfreeze"

At 0 Kelvin, (-273.15 Celsius), motion stops--kinetic energy = 0. At least that's what I remember from thermodynamics.

So, Emerald, if your brain froze, would it cease to exist? :-) LOL!

Anyway, this gets me thinking about the big-bang theory and wondering how those scientists calculated that the actual "big-bang" took something like a gazillionth of a second to occur. I get a kick out of quotes like this regarding the beginning of the universe:

"After the universe had cooled to about 3000 billion degrees [sic] Kelvin..."

That's what it cooled to!?!?!?! Just as a point of reference, the surface of the sun is 6000 Kelvin.

I'm sure it's all over my head...

OK, back to serious discussion.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), January 21, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

"So, Emerald, if your brain froze, would it cease to exist?"

Don't give them any ideas... pretty soon they'll be chasing me with cannisters of freon.

It's way over my head too, thank God. Can you imagine going down that road of trying to comprehend all of creation? Only to find that you have contradicted yourself back into the simplicity of faith and trust in God?

Again it reminds me of the absurdity of our local state park's use of the term "wildlife management". As if we could, huh? lol.

We human beings are nothings in the face of Dominus.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 21, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Another thing to ponder is, what is spiritual time? Now that is where things get really interesting... :-)

-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

I always assumed that time was the measure of motion. Maybe that's too simplistic. I wouldn't have come to the conclusion that if motion stopped that matter would cease to be, though; that's a bizarre thought. Maybe there is something to it.

I do remember a while back reading an article or two on a couple recent discoveries where science came into contact with God so to speak. One had to do with the discovery of an unknown force that was exerted upon atoms in real-time at all times, and the other had to do with specific atoms acting in concert with other specific atoms by some unknown means even though they were separated by light years.

I hate science. Let's go back to the angels discussion; sorry.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 21, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

In the material world time is matter in motion. What happens when matter travels very fast relative to other matter is that it experiences progression into the future more slowly (the reasons for this are simple but lengthly to explain). But a "similar" thing could be done if you were frozen. You would not progress into the future as fast as the non-frozen world. If all of material creation were to stop there would be no time. Who knows, maybe it does stop and start up again, we'd never know now would we?

Also, there is spiritual time too. We know this through revelation that events occur in heaven. It could be that it is revealed to us by using words we can relate to. Spiritual time, however, probably is beyond our grasp of understanding. Likewise, angels can understand something instantly and completely whereas we cannot. Such ability to learn and understand would undoubtly have helped us all in school! :-)

-- Chris (ChristopherMG2@aol.com), January 21, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

There are 9 choirs of Angels - or orders if you will:

Thrones, Seraphims, and Cherubims

Dominations, Principalities, and Powers,

Virtues, Archangels, and Angels.

Now most people have guardian angels - the foot soldiers taken from the lowest and least powerful order.

However this power is of nature. God's grace can make an archangel (Like Michael) as "powerful" as a Cherubim (like Lucifer).

How do we know all this? Two ways: scripture and metaphysics.

Scripture (Old and New Testaments) mentions the various titles or orders of angels... and philosophy deduces that each order has an excellence and perfection unique to itself - the "Thrones" are closest to God - so by implication, they must be really heavy hitters.

Seraphs are next - extremely powerful, holy dudes... the types that would guide whole galaxies around.

All of them, being immaterial spirits though are not in space or time in that they don't occupy space - they have no mass or volume. Nor do they have moving parts subject to change, so they are not "temporal".

But being willful and intelligent creatures they can influence matter within time. They can decipher our imaginations and certain thoughts, though not all - and insofar as they are "messengers" by trade (angelos), apparently useful to God in that way, they can transmit prayers to the heavenly court.

(Ya see, God isn't into monopolies. He doesn't mind delegating jobs to creatures... Jesus is the One mediator, yet he is not jealous, he sends out apostles, who in turn send out others... including Mary.)

-- Joe Stong (Joestong@yahoo.com), January 23, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

Wow! Thank you Joe! That is great.

I had a question though. You mentioned that Lucifer was a Cherubim, yet you said “Thrones” were the most powerful. I always thought that while Lucifer was a good angel, he was the most powerful (or was it the most beautiful?). Can you explain this for me?

Thanks.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), January 23, 2003.

Response to If Angles can hear our Prayers, then Why can't Mary?

I like the way Joe thinks! Jake, too. Whoever said Mary CAN'T hear our prayers? Certainly not the authoritative voice of the Catholic Church. Indeed, she is our powerful intercessor in heaven. And how do demons predict the future? Well, they are higher intelligences than us, so perhaps they are also better guessers! Even mediums through whom the demons speak, get it wrong a good percentage of the time when predicting future events! Blessed Mary of Agreda's Mystical City of God reveals much about the demons and their thinking and planning. They certainly are not all-knowing! But they do know the Scriptures; know how to "spin" the Scriptures; know how to deceive, confuse and tempt us; and can anticipate our natural human responses to try to direct our steps onto the path of sin. Thank God for the Sacraments, sacramentals, and our guardian angels! Pax Christi

-- Anna <>< (FloweroftheHour@hotmail. com), January 23, 2003.

i woild like to know if my angels could find me a mate marie

-- marie Graziano (boobieo@earthlink.net), July 15, 2004.

Joe you said "most people have guardian angels" - shouldn't that be ALL people?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), July 16, 2004.

Wow I love this talk .Ive been reading alot on here about how God can make anything happen because of coarse God is the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega anyways about my personnal experiance with Angels. This happend to me when my father was in a comma 4 years ago I saw a hovering bright light with my own eyes and continue to see it . To me this is a gift to me from God that He blessed me with spiritual eyesight.Alls I can say is I dont know everything one thing I do know 100% we are not alone .My whole life has changed and I stay close to the word of God that is my direction book .....anyways I know today Gods eyes are everywhere....this whole earth is alive its amazing my life today is a gift .All of my fear in this world has turned into joy and freedom the knowing that as long as I stay in the light everything is bright in my life even when bad things happen I never forget that God is in charge no matter what happens...I am not my own I am one of Gods creation and so are all of you ...treat yourselves good for you have a mighty Father who is God in Jesus name bye bye thanks for letting me share love conquers all ...I rather be happy than always right. God Bless.....

-- Rose (lhprose@cs.com), November 07, 2004.