In most of the latest versions of the Divine Mercy novena, you will find wording which resembles the following; at least the site that I got the wording you see below had the wherewithall to provide footnotes:

FOURTH DAY

"Today bring to Me THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD* AND THOSE WHO DO NOT YET KNOW ME. I was thinking also of them during My bitter Passion, and their future zeal comforted My Heart. Immerse them in the ocean of My mercy."

(the rest of the prayer follows here, after which occurs the following footnote):

*Our Lord's original words here were "the pagans." Since the pontificate of Pope John XXIII, the Church has seen fit to replace this term with clearer and more appropriate terminology.

Italics emphasis above is mine. There's other footnotes on other matters at that site too.

Comments please?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 31, 2003

Answers

Political Correctness? In this neo-pagan era, most pagans do call themselves just that. But I think those writing for the Church at the time of that publication must have felt that wording would be offensive. I too, have seen the above explanations in the Divine Mercy novena booklets we have used for years.

-- Anna <>< (FloweroftheHour@hotmail.com), January 31, 2003.

Get an old missal and check out the Good Friday service. In the general intercessions, where the prayer is for the Jewish people, it starts out "for the perfidious Jews, etc." Much stronger than the prayer as it is now ("that they might continue to grow in His covenant.") It's all so that people don't get "offended."

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), January 31, 2003.

Maybe they changed it because it became apparent that the vast majority of Jewish people were not any more "perfidious" than anyone else.

We are ALL sinners. We have ALL betrayed Christ. We ALL deserve death for our sins. We ALL stand in need of the Grace of God.

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 31, 2003.

"THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD* AND THOSE WHO DO NOT YET KNOW ME"

Neither part of this expression is precisely synonymous with "pagans". The first part, "those who do not believe in God" would more properly describe atheists and agnostics, rather than pagans. All pagans believe in "god" - just not the correct God. The second phrase, "those who do not yet know me", could refer to either pagans or agnostics, but it could also refer to Jews and Muslims, who certainly are not pagans. Therefore, the newer wording is indeed "clearer and more appropriate" - much less ambiguous, and more inclusive, which is its obvious intent.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 31, 2003.

We've all heard the one-liner, most often used against those of traditionalist leanings "those who are holier than the Pope" or "think they know better than the Pope". I think in most cases where it is applied, it's a yawner.

So here we have "our Lord's original words" replaced with "clearer and more appropriate terminology".

What I'm getting at is, in a private revelation approved by the Church, Our Lord says something which is somehow not quite as clear and accurate as some think it ought to be. Why aren't they supposed to be knowing more than Christ?

Later on in the above link on Day 5 it reads as follows:

FIFTH DAY

"Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAVE SEPARATED THEMSELVES FROM MY CHURCH,* and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy."

The footnote that follows the asterick reads:

" *Our Lord's original words here were "heretics and schismatics," since He spoke to Saint Faustina within the context of her times. As of the Second Vatican Council, Church authorities have seen fit not to use those designations in accordance with the explanation given in the Council's Decree on Ecumenism (n.3). Every pope since the Council has reaffirmed that usage. Saint Faustina herself, her heart always in harmony with the mind of the Church, most certainly would have agreed. When at one time, because of the decisions of her superiors and father confessor, she was not able to execute Our Lord's inspirations and orders, she declared: "I will follow Your will insofar as You will permit me to do so through Your representative. O my Jesus " I give priority to the voice of the Church over the voice with which You speak to me" (497). The Lord confirmed her action and praised her for it."

What grabs me in particular is this line: "Saint Faustina herself, her heart always in harmony with the mind of the Church, most certainly would have agreed" ...well, it was Our Lord that was speaking, not Sister Faustina, so why would she feel compelled to change it based upon that reasoning? Either it was a revelation and she tells it like she heard it, or it was her own words and she can change them.

And to say that she "most certainly would have agreed"... well, that's a real load of speculation. Citing the case of where she "was not able to execute Our Lord's inspirations and orders" because of "the decisions of her superiors and father confessor" doesn't necessarily fly because it pertains not to the words of Our Lord to Faustina by way of revelation but rather to actions which she was to carry out which she was prevented from doing by obedience. The same scenario has been played out at other approved apparitions.

I will have to go find the case that is alluded to above and see if that is not actually the case; I bet it is.

This may seem a small matter here, but it is imho a good case study on a style of subtle attack against the Faith that is used repeatedly in many other places. Note that the root of the Faustina devotions is the pleading for the salvation of mankind by appealing to the Father by the only means possible and effective, the blood of Christ. This makes it a prime target.

Here's the two-headed snake that's a little icing on the cake. If the above footnote is correct, then we shouldn't be calling anyone schismatic... correct? Because many will use it whenever they find it convenient, in the same way as they often find it convenient to disregard the spirit of ecumenism when dealing with irritating traditionalist which they might believe to be schismatics.

Don't mind me; just hovering around the remodeling process, pestering the workers and other house members with endless questions and concerns and complaints. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 31, 2003.

Judging from what Vatican II tries to teach us, the chief problem the Church faced in the 1960's was not neo-paganism -which at the time was almost entirely non-existant. The real threat to Christendom and the future of the world was atheism - Communism at the time was ascendant EVERYWHERE, including the fashionable salons of the self- described "social elites" and "sophisticates" who just so happened to run the show in Europe and in New York and LA.

Atheism and Atheists promotes immoral behavior which after a generation or two produces people who are so enslaved to their bodies that they can hardly grasp virtue and higher truths found in organized religion...yet they are not totally depraved and still yearn for spiritual values - thus are easy prey to neo-pagan beliefs such as the New Age religions and neo-pagan lifestyles that embrace every activity from drug and alcohol abuse, to the whole pan-sexual experience and an ever more animalistic music and entertainment scene.

My prediction: given the state of affairs in the West morally, we will see legalized prostitution within 5 years. Why? Because right now in 50 states it's legal for unmarried "consenting adults" to have relations or even orgies. Secondly, the whole Roe v Wade issue has enshrined a woman's right to control her own body to the point of being a "super-right" superceeding all others. and Finally, there are already forms of prostitution tolerated; escorts and porn stars - women or men in these industries obviously offer sexual favors in return for money. The state's only interest then seems to be how to take advantage of this vice for taxation purposes. There does not appear to be any legal basis for preserving the Judeo-Christian moral position that unmarried sex is not only a sin but also an abomination leading to serious health, mental, and moral illnesses.

But pagan cultures accept prostitution - cf. Japan and other Asian countries with booming "sex worker" industries.

Set the clock ticking... by 2008 my friends... it's coming. There is already millions of young girls being trained to DRESS like prostitutes and whole swaths of young men being programmed to expect it as a "right"... only a serious evangelization effort will stop it.

-- Joe Stong (joestong@yahoo.com), January 31, 2003.

"Pagan" was not the word Our Lord used here. Our Lord did not speak english. The word "pagan" was provided by a Greek-to-English translator making a personal judgement regarding the correct sense of the Greek word(s) provided by an Aramaic-to-Greek translator making a personal judgement regarding the correct sense of the actual word(s) used by Jesus. The newer wording was determined by the same process, but with the added advantage of centuries of additional scholarship.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 01, 2003.

Mary Faustina Kowalska...

St. Faustina was Polish. What was translated from Greek or Aramaic?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 02, 2003.

Here's the understanding I'm really after... full disclosure. The Divine Mercy devotions appeal to God the Father through the blood sacrifice of His son, the cross of Christ, the sacrificial lamb, the new and eternal testament.

This is the means of our salvation, and there is absolutely, positively no other; this is the essence of life and existence, and there is no other. Without it we are justifiably damned; to question this is to deny the Catholic Faith.

In these devotions we are appealing to those outside the Church in the most perfect of ecumenical ways, within the context of the only real ecumenical act, by recommending them to the Mercy of Christ by His blood and thereby to the Father for the purposes of salvation. The most absolute and effect way in which we can show charity is to pray for the salvation of others... a true act of love for Christ such that His suffering not be wasted.

Now we want to give the target of this most charitable act a little break, you know, a little benefit of the doubt. Just a little one. What good this does Christ or the object of his infinite mercy is beyond me.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 02, 2003.

Good morning, Emerald!

Two questions for you?

What gods do pagans believe in? Or god?

What is the difference between pagan and neo-pagan? This question doesn't apply to this thread, but it is the neo thing that gets me..what is the difference between a nazi and a 'neo-nazi.' I looked it up in the dictionary, but came up with nothing.

Thanks for your answers. :) I feel dumb having to ask these things, but if you don't know something, you don't know and the only way you will learn is to ask. So, I humbly ask you these questions. ML

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 02, 2003.

Hi MaryLu; I'm probably the last regular on here that knows about languages. I had two years of Latin in college, and I swear I don't know how I passed the class since I was looking out the window thinking about I don't know what... pizza maybe.

Neo means "new". I think it is Greek. I always use the word "nuvo", and a friend pointed it out as being French and wondered why I used it so much. I have no idea.

So a Neo-nazi would someone involved in a modern day resurgence of Nazi-ism. By neo-pagan, I think some people might be refering to those in new age type religions, some which try to go back in history and revive lost religions and gods of old, thinking that something of value had been lost to Christianity.

About the particular pagan gods, I know a little about it, but more in terms of a general understanding. Other people on the forum probably know much more than I do on this one too.

My understanding of the false gods issue goes something like this: in the sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapters 5 through 7, you find a lot about what it means to live the Christian life. It seems like Jesus packed everything about the essence of salvation into that sermon... the beatitudes vs. pharisaical holiness, the narrow path of salvation, loving your enemies, how to pray, the house on the rock, etc. Somewhere in there you find the phrase "you cannot server both God and mammon".

Mammon is a false god. In the truest sense, a false god is anything to which is given the devotion and attention which is only belonging to the one true God; it is the serving of gods that are not THE God. It's kind of like shooting arrows at a target... there is only one way to hit it (the bullseye) but many many ways to miss it. I think this explains why there is a plurality of 'gods' and only one true God, and since God is Truth, then this is why there is one way to be 'right' and many ways to be in error or live in falsity.

This Mammon thing is not limited to actually worshipping, let's say, an actual golden calf, but instead includes literally everything that soaks up your attention and actions in the place of God... materialism, consumerism, a schedule packed with too many activities, the usual culprits like drugs, bad sex, alcohol; for others it could be overindulgence is sports, offroading, knitting... basic obsessions. Even holding grudges. Anything! Anything that soaks away from the soul the time and opportunities needed to appeal to Christ for our salvation and other's salvation. They also distract the mind and deaden the soul into a false security... the soul fails to take note of it's perilous condition.

Going right in line with this, the pagan 'gods' seemed always attached to a particular benefit to men... a god for wealth, a god for love, a god for war, a god for this and that. Many ways in which to err in not serving the one true God.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 02, 2003.

In the catholic faith, it is believed one can pray to different saints for particular needs which seems to parallel this notion of the pagan gods. Any thoughts regarding this ?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 02, 2003.

no no no Olly, it doesn't parallel asking saints to intercede for you at all. Where did you get such an idea? Now, if you have a son that is going through a bad time of doing drugs and stealing, you need help, you need someone to be praying for your son. You have a freind who has a son who went through the same thing and now the son has repented, come clean, recovered and is walking honestly with the Lord.

Isn't it fitting that your freind would be a good person to ask to pray for your son? He has EXPERIENCIAL KNOWLEDGE of the drug and stealing issue and is able to carry your son to the Lord with heartfelt compassion and power.

So it is when we ask particular saints in Heaven to intercede for us to the Lord for special needs. It's just another sweet little gift God gives us, this special fellowship we have with one another, the placing of each of us in the Body of Christ. Nothing to do with false worship, it all glorifies God all the more! Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), February 02, 2003.

Thank you, Emerald for your response to my questions. Now I understand. :)

And, Theresa, that was a beautiful response about the saints.

ml

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 02, 2003.

These are wonnnnnnderful posts. I am learning so much. Thanks, Emerald and Teresa. Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (FloweroftheHour@hotmail.com), February 02, 2003.

Oooops. "Theresa." (sorry!) Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (FloweroftheHour@hotmail.com), February 02, 2003.