Further to post below regarding second charge, we have been notified by bank that as second charge document is not held in a "relevant filing system" it cannot not be supplied as part of a subject access request.

How can such an important document, ie Charge Certificate - not be held in a "relevant filing system?" Bank was eager enough to supply a copy of every other scrap of paper from their securitues dept - but why not the charge certificate?

Any suggestions as to how to respond?

Cheers IP

-- IP (pbs_tech2000@yahoo.co.uk), February 13, 2003

Answers

Tell them that a SARN relates to all data held by them that refers to you, tell them that if they do not supply the document that you will ask for an assessment by the Information Commissioner.

It is not your responsibility to hold the data, it is theirs and if they cant be bothered to store such data in a suitable manner (ie if someones asks for it) then it is not your problem.

-- John (sharky_john@hotmail.com), February 13, 2003.

As I have requested this specific doc several times under the DPA, I have already threateded them with the Information Commissioner and this was their final response. They seem hellbent on using the clause about "relevant filing system" to avoid supplying the Charge document. As you will see from post below the document at the Land Registry is unsigned.

-- IP (pbs_tech2000@yahoo.co.uk), February 13, 2003.

You could ask your MP to write on your behalf. You will get more luck with this route if your write a letter addressed to the lender, but send it to your MP with a letter outlining your case and asking him/her to take an interest in these dealings. Then offer to copy your MP on all correspondence. Your MP may send copies of any letters you write to him/her to your lender, so make sure all the facts are relevant and true.

Remember to put a sentence in your letter to the lender stating that you give authority for your MP to have copies of any information relating to you that he requires. Otherwise, your lender will say that they cannot release the information under the DPA.

I tried this when the Halifax refused to supply a copy of the Mortgage Deed because it was held at Land Registry and they "did not want to further increase their costs in relation to this debt". After my MP wrote asking why they would not supply relevant information, they offered to send a copy of the Mortgage Deed to me. As it turned out, I settled before they sent it, and I have never received a copy, but that's another story.

You should also write to the Information Commissioner. There is no point making these threats if you're not going to carry them out. If she writes back and says she cannot help, then you'll just have to think of something else. But who knows, she may be able to get information that your lender felt you shouldn't see, such as important documents that can make a whole world of difference to your case.

Good luck.

Tracey

-- One Angry Mother (madcow678@hotmail.com), February 14, 2003.

There was a in the Edmonton County Court in Oct 2002 concerning the failure to provide personal data as part of a SARN because of "Relevant Filing System Considerations" ; "MJ Durant vs FSA", case ED201093, before Judge Zeidman.

The claimant made an appeal against the order of a District Court Judge, refusing to order disclosure by the FSA of the file dealing with the problem Mr Durant had with Barclays Bank.

I also have an extract of an excellent article from December 2000 which discusses the "Relevant Filing Systems" DPA issue.

It's quite a complicated and long case report, if you want a copy then send me your fax number. Or, I can scan it up, and I'll send to you if you have a fast Internet link. I think the case addresses your questions on this aspect of the DPA.

I personally consider this part of the UK DPA to be total nonsense. Before long all data controllers will no doubt all be citing "Relevant Filing Systems", as a means to not provide any personal data to data subjects in response to SARN's. I understand that only the UK has this "let out" clause in it's DPA laws, other countries in the EU do not, and when you issue a SARN in Holland for instance you simply get everything.

I wonder which DPA applies if you pop over to Holland and send a SARN to a bank in the UK? How much does a SARN request cost on Holland, and do you have to send them Euros, UK pounds, or Dutch funds?

I'd also mention that my husband and I were not provided with a copy of a key letter issued by a director of Abbey National to the IC in December 2000, in response to SARN's served against Abbey National, and in a SARN served against the IC. The Abbey National December 2000 directors letter contained handwritten comments by the Abbey National director, or his staff, instructing the IC not to provide parts of the letter to us in SARN's. The handwritten comment is dated the same day as the letter was issued.

"In My Opinion"; The IC subsequently obeyed the instructions of their masters at Abbey National by not providing us with copies of the Abbey National directors letter in our SARN against the data controller of the IC, and thus the IC itself illegally violated our DPA rights on the instructions of Abbey National.

(My husband only obtained a copy of the December 2000 Abbey National directors letter to the IC, together with the handwritten comments, as part of full disclosure in his High Court claim against Abbey National for violations of the Data Protection Act. The use of this document in his High Court Judicial Review claim against the Information Commissioner was ordered by the High Court, and the document became fully Public Domain when it was used in the Judicial Review hearing against the Information Commissioner in the High Court.)

My husband has submitted an assessment request to the IC; to investigate the data controller at the IC, for breaching the Principles of the Data Protection Act by not providing us with all personal data on the instructions of Abbey National (to protect the interests of Abbey National?). My husband has requested that this assessment request under the Data Protection Act is conducted by another Information Commissioners office in the EU.

A complaint has been submitted to the Parliamentary Ombudsman; concerning this breach, and failure, of Section 51 of the Data Protection Act by the Information Commissioner.

regards, JKJ

-- JKJ (jank@blueyonder.co.uk), February 20, 2003.

Excellent post, please keep us up to date on this !!! But I have to say, that this is yet another example of a government organisation with no teeth. The Conservative Party will never get elected again, nor will the Labour Party if they keep this up, so lets give the LibDems a try eh ?

-- John (sharky_john@hotmail.com), February 20, 2003.

Very sorry, typo on my previous email for my email address.

Use jankath please.

regards, Jan

-- Jan (jankath@blueyonder.co.uk), February 20, 2003.