Here is an issue I would like to discuss because I feel that sometimes our best intentions can do a lot of harm. Specifically, what I am referring to is the practise of prostelyzing. Many people, including myself, believe they should bring people out of what they consider to be a false religious system. Of course, the accusation of being a false religious system, flys from all directions.

I want to know your thoughts as to what you think these people, as myself, should do if they have a genuine heart or "best intentions" for those within the system, and want them to know the truth ?

Should such people, stay away from members of those systems and mind their own business, or should they ruffle some feathers and ask questions that cause the members to think rather than go with the flow ?

Personally, I know there are those who do question matters of faith rather than just take them at face value, and I consider this to be healthy, much like the Bereans, who checked the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was true.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 14, 2003

Answers

Certainly we are supposed to share the Truth and try to lead people to Christ.

However, I think a lot of the bad feelings come about when the proselytizers don't take the time to find out what the potential converts actually believe.

For example, those Protestants who get their information about the Catholic Church from "Jack Chick" tracts, rather than picking up a copy of the Catechism. And conversely, those Catholics who assume all Protestants share the same beliefs as Martin Luther. :-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 14, 2003.

Protestants also check the scriptures to see if what the Catholic Church teaches is true. Unfortunately, they are unable to accurately make that determination because you can't use the scriptures as a criterion of truth unless you first have the means of accessing the truth of scripture, which is to say, interpreting it correctly. And that charism exists only in the Church to which the scriptures were given.

The Church has received from God Himself the mission of making disciples of all peoples. While the Church cannot force anyone to accept the truth, it has the solemn obligation before God to present the truth to all men. This obligation does not rest only with the clergy, but with the entire Church. Therefore we are bound to speak the truth, in love but also in its entirety. If the truth is watered down so as not to offend, then it is no longer the truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 14, 2003.

"I want to know your thoughts as to what you think these people, as myself, should do if they have a genuine heart or "best intentions" for those within the system, and want them to know the truth?"

Pray for their salvation I guess. When we try to do it ourselves, its like pulling a nail with our bare fingers. If you appeal to Heaven, it's like using a crowbar. Less painful too... lol!

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 14, 2003.

Why does Chris Butler write negative remarks about other members of this forum? Does he think that catholics are dirty mouths who can behave this way?

-- Ollen Patterson (OlenPatt@aol.com), February 14, 2003.

I dunno. Why do you call yourself Mark Town in one thread and Ollen Patterson in another? Life's a mystery. ;-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 14, 2003.

Paul, u bring up a point i want to address. You seem to imply that the only way to know if you're right is to go by man, more precisely, the catholic church. Others would argue that the Holy Spirit testifies and guides us.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 14, 2003.

The problem, though, Oliver, as I'm sure you'll agree, is that so many people claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them into whatever particular interpretation of Scripture they've come up with - and they can't all be right! Someone has to "referee".

Remember in Acts, when the Ethopian was trying to read the prophet Isaiah? He couldn't figure out what it meant on his own - he needed Philip (a man) to tell him. :-)

-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 14, 2003.

Dear Oliver,

It is indeed necessary that the Holy Spirit testify to the truth and guide us in the definition and teaching of doctrine. That is exactly why Jesus founded the Church. The Church is where the Holy Spirit speaks. Naturally the Holy Spirit also guides us in individual ways, but always within the context of doctrinal truth revealed through the Church. He does not reveal doctrine directly to each individual Christian. If He did, there could not possibly be such a tremendous degree of confusion, conflict, and contradiction among those churches which have rejected the authority of the Magisterium.

So, the irony is that the only way to avoid being led by the ideas of men is to listen to the Church, where the Holy Spirit speaks. And the best way to submit to the ideas of men is to reject the God-given authority of the Magisterium, and to insist that the Holy Spirit will guide you personally. When Jesus said "When the Spirit comes, He will guide you to all truth", He was speaking only to the bishops of the Church he founded - the Apostles - not to the congregation at large, and not to the leadership of any other church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 14, 2003.

Well, let's look at what the Catholic Church tells us in the Catechism:

'However one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities. (that resulted from such separation) and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers...All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace, faith, hope, and charity; with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation..."

In Christ,

Sara

-- Sara (sara@yahoo.com), February 15, 2003.

Yes, indeed "many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church" - but the original source of all such elements was the Catholic Church. Any Christian truth that exists in any Christian body originally found its way there from the Catholic Church, which was the sole repository of Christian truth. There is no such thing as an original Christian truth in any other church. There is no such thing as an element of Christian truth which exists in another church, but not in the Catholic Church, since the Catholic Church alone possesses the fullness of truth. The many original beliefs that do exist in other churches are, by definition, false, as they are in conflict with the fullness of truth Christ gave to His Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 15, 2003.

Paul, I believe the section of the Catechism that Sara alluded to is referring to all people, not merely other Christians. When the Catechism says, “many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church”, I believe it is saying that all people, even non-Christians, can obtain truth and be sanctified sufficient to get to Heaven. While the Church is the guardian and promulgator of Christ’s instructions here on earth, I don’t think one can say She is the original source of such elements. They were in existence long before the Church came along. God is the source of such elements. He sends His Holy Spirit to all men so that all men might be saved and He’s been doing it since the beginning of time. While the Church does possess the "fullness of truth" which more easily facilitates salvation, those who remain outside the Church can still be saved through the mercy of God.

I realize you are fully aware of the above, but someone reading this thread might get the mistaken impression that you are saying there is no salvation outside the Church.

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 16, 2003.

Ed, Thank you for your comments to my posting. That was the point of me posting my message, quoting directly from the Catechism. As I'm sure Paul, and many others who contribute to this Forum are well aware, the Church doesn't teach that salvation is only open to those who are full members of the Catholic Church. I've not been participating in this Forum for very long, a lot of people here seem to know one another well and perhaps I've been misinterpreting people's intentions in some of the postings. If this is the case, then I apologise profusely. However, it has struck me that at times some responses and comments can portray us Catholics as rather arrogant about our faith and condescending about others' Faiths. Our Bishops, Priests, Religious and members of the laity are, as I'm sure you're very aware, working hard towards Christian Unity, via ecumenical movements. I would hope that, as Catholics faithful to the Church, we support them in their endeavours, and not inadvertently make their task more difficult.

At Mass we say Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will come again. When the Risen Jesus appeared to the Apostles they did not recognise him at first. Perhaps we should stop and think about that. If Christ were to come amongst us, even perhaps write a posting in this Forum, would we recognise him? Would we, indeed would HE, be proud of how we treat others, of how we act and speak in His name? Do we portray the infinite mercy and compassion that the Lord Jesus has for all of us? Do people recognise the LOVE of christ in us? Or, do we spend so much time saying how right we are, arguing about liturgical practices, debating about what kind of music is acceptable to the Lord, etc. etc. that we forget what Jesus is all about? Have we become like the Pharisees that Jesus warned us about......prancing about in our own self-importance?

I've gone on a bit there, I know, but I thought I would share some of my thoughts with all of you. My mind does sometimes tend to go off on a tangent, sorry if I've got away from the original thread. I must admit though, that's one of the things I like about this forum, its diversity!

God our Father, bless each and every one of us who love you and try to live our lives to the best of our ability. Send your Holy Spirit to us to guide and lead us in the ways of Christ, in His love. Through Christ Our Lord, Amen.

In Christ

Sara

-- Sara (sara@yahoo.com), February 16, 2003.

"...the Church doesn't teach that salvation is only open to those who are full members of the Catholic Church."

Believe it or not, that's not true. =0

"I've not been participating in this Forum for very long, a lot of people here seem to know one another well and perhaps I've been misinterpreting people's intentions in some of the postings. If this is the case, then I apologise profusely."

There's no misinterpretation here; no need to apologize; I do believe unwaveringly and with exception that the Catholic Church is the only way of salvation, and that the Church has always taught this. I'm irrevocably committed to it until the day I die.

"However, it has struck me that at times some responses and comments can portray us Catholics as rather arrogant about our faith and condescending about others' Faiths."

I don't think it really has to do with arrogance at all really, but instead with the truth and with steadfastness. The only way one can really avoid being labelled "arrogant", I've found, is to take no definitive stance on anything and defend diversity, of any sort, to the hilt. But even these people can be labelled "arrogant" for their stance against those who hold fast to any brand of immutability.

But I will defend the Catholic Church as the only way of salvation. That is, if I'm available and around to do it. I think it is of the utmost importance. Am I arrogant? probably, but for several other reasons maybe... =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 16, 2003.

ooops. "...unwaveringly and without exception..."

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 16, 2003.

Off Off Off Off Off

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 16, 2003.

"Conservative extremists (who describe themselves "traditionalists", though such a label is ludicrous)"

Extreme? Skateboarding is not a crime. I did have my wife check my back, and you are right. It didn't say "conservative extremist" like I expected though. There was a label that said ludicrous just like you said... =)

Here's the crux of the matter though, Paul, this line:

"...understanding of doctrinal truth necessarily evolves and deepens over time."

Now obviously I don't think you are a severed limb off the body of Christ, and I wouldn't dare question your sincerity because I honestly don't, but... can't you see the problem with this? This is the toughest thing for me to understand about Catholics these days. It should be manifest that there is error in that concept.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 16, 2003.

Dear Emerald,

So you favor standing outside the Church doors in sackcloth and ashes in order to receive absolution? That's traditional. But wait! That traditional interpretation of the sacrament of penance had already evolved from earlier traditional understandings of it. As long as something exists in the Church, our understanding of it will hopefully increase. Today we have a far more in-depth understanding of the sacraments and their role in salvation than the apostles did. Deeper than Aquinas and Augustine did too. Thank God our understanding of matrimony has progressed past some of the primitive concepts held by those great men of God! Thank God for all the additional insights which the Holy Spirit has provided over time, and continues to provide to the Church! Of course we know it is possible to reinterpret doctrinal truth until it no longer bears any resemblance to its original meaning, and that, I believe, is what you fear. So do I. But, overreaction to that fear to an extent that prevents a Catholic from following the Church in its current expression of unchanging truth is not a good thing. A balanced view means avoiding meaningless changes in belief and practice, while embracing the ever-fuller appreciation and understanding of the basic truths Christ revealed to His Church, which now and forever remain central to the life of the Church. Clinging to the doctrines of yesteryear is a must, for those doctrines will endure till the end of time. But clinging to the level of understanding we had centuries ago is crippling.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 16, 2003.

Ahh but see I'm not clinging. I'm 36. Grasping? lol. Grasping is a better word.

There is, most definitely, a small list of lost understandings... I'm coming to find this out. It would make for a good book.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 16, 2003.

"So you favor standing outside the Church doors in sackcloth and ashes in order to receive absolution?"

You know, come to think of it... =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 16, 2003.

Dear Paul, the source of truth is not the Catholic Church. The source of truth is Christ. Please remember that.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 20, 2003.

Dear Olover,

Absolutely right; and I never forget that for a moment. However, Christ no longer walks upon this earth. Though Christ has ascended, His truth remains here, because He entrusted it to His Church, which is the repository of truth, the pillar and foundtion of truth (1 Tim 3:15), and the only direct source of the fullness of His truth to the world. That's why He told His Church "he who hears you hears Me". He is the one source, but nothing from the source would reach the world if it were not for His Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.

Whenever Paul preaches I get a kick out of it! Truth, obeisance, we, them, just we, not them, everything clear and shut up! What a planet does he live on? Firmly in the truth - oh, sorry, in the Truth! Clown Paul.

-- Wicky Martin (WickyMrt@rtw.net), February 20, 2003.

Oliver,

You write:

"Dear Paul, the source of truth is not the Catholic Church. The source of truth is Christ. Please remember that."

The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, so...

From EWTN.com: The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ

From www.transporter.com: The Mystical Body of Christ

I suppose the real source of Truth is the Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But, that's just getting technical...

In Christ (and His Church), :-)

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 20, 2003.

The catholic Church is not Christ! Read what Vatican II says about the church - holy but also sinful. Christ is just holy. You cannot make a = sign between Christ and the Church even if the Church contains a mystery of Christ. Things are not so simplistic.

-- Eric Moore (Ericmoore@cool.net), February 20, 2003.

Dear Eric,

No-one suggests placing a "=" between Christ and the Church. The "=" was placed, by Christ, between the Church He founded, and the Biblical pillar and foundation of truth. That is where the "=" remains today. You hear His truth only to the extent that you listen to His Church, for The Catholic Church = The Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.

Dear Eric,

You write:

"The catholic Church is not Christ!"

Here's some passages from the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 12:27 - "Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it."

Ephesians 5:30 - "Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body."

You write:

"Read what Vatican II says about the church - holy but also sinful."

Who taught you this? Could you show me the line in the Vatican II documents where it calls the Church "sinful"?

Eric writes:

"Things are not so simplistic."

That's why it's called the Mystical Body of Christ.

Ephesians 5:29-32 - "For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. "For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church."

Christ and His Church cannot be separated. They are one, according to the Holy Bible.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 20, 2003.

In the original post, Oliver was concerned about the (potentially "harmful") "practice of prosletyzing." I have never heard the Holy Father speak out against this practice. In fact, he calls upon us all to "evangelize."

Could you please explain to me the difference between "prosletyzing" and "evangelizing"?

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 20, 2003.

Here's my understanding Anna.. evangelizing is bringing people to Christ, to the truth of Who He is and how He relates to them; bringing people to a personal relationship with Christ. NOW, this could take YEARS with one person, for it is to be done in CHARITY and respect, with patience, and respecting protocol. You just don't come crashing in to people's lives, even if you behold the TRUTH, the ground has to be readied to receive the seed. That is charity. To just fly in people's faces with the truth without preparation and love, is an act of immaturity and insensitivity, and rarely produces fruit.

Proselytism is more of a recruitment, done with an attitude of 'scalp- hunting', seeing how many bodies you can bring in, it's root is pride. It focuses on SELF, while evangelization focuses on CHRIST.

-- Theresa (RodnTee4Jesus@aol.com), February 20, 2003.