1 Corinthians 14:31 - "For you can all prophesy one by one."

I'd like to know what this verse means to the people here. Do you prophesy ? Do you know what it is to prophesy ? How many people where you meet prophesy ?

Cheers, Oliver.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 21, 2003

Answers

Prophecy means God speaking a message to His people through a selected individual to whom the message is given. It happened in Old Testament times, it happened in New Testament times, and it still happens today, as anyone involved in communal charismatic prayer can attest.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 21, 2003.

Well, let's see, Oliver, why don't you go turn on TBN and you will see prophet after prophet, most of them false of course, but never mind that. They wear their Protestant banner proudly while they literally deceive MILLIONS of innocent people (using the Bible of course) -- seducing them with their false doctrines and lies from the pit of hell; get rich quick schemes -- get health fast! That's the name of their game and it works oh so very well. They fly around in their private jets from one mansion to another, wheeling and dealing in the fast lane of heresy! That's the legacy of Protestantism! Grand, ain't it! But you see they have no authority over them -- no one to buttress their claims! Do they? No one to finally wrap the gavel over their heads and throw their lying rear ends out of Christendom!

I am so dog-gone sick of anti-Catholics coming on this forum and spewing forth their so-called knowledge, thumping their Bibles with their arrogant heads held high. Keep it to yourself, would you! Your legacy of private interpretation has lead to a catastrophe within Protestantism -- it has been an abject failure! Check the results, Oliver. What is that saying -- "People who live in glass houses . . . ."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 22, 2003.

Prophesy in itself means nothing,UNTIL the prophesy comes to fruition. Then and only then, does it have any value.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), February 22, 2003.

Prophesying is not merely limited to predictions or fortelling. Actually it is speaking fourth God , speaking for God. And Paul here clearly says that ALL can prophesy one by one. What does this mean ? It means we all have this gift. It's not referring to fortelling or predicting, because as was mentioned, there are many false prophets. Rather, the function in the church meetings should be a functioning of all the members, speaking forth God and speaking for God.

Gail, if you're so sick of these sorts of posts, you need to pray to the lord for more strength and perseverence. To get upset because someone has opposing faith to yours is not a particularly glorious testimony for the Lord. Rise up and declare your faith boldly. Do not be lukewarm.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excitre.com), February 22, 2003.

Gail Olly has been asking many questions about our faith, honest fair questions and he is a true brother in Christ IMHO. Of course we hope that he comes to see the full truth as a Catholic but sheesh I dont think telling him to go away will achieve that! ANyhow havent spoken to you in a while, I hope you are well. May the peace ofChrist be with you :-)

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 22, 2003.

Dear Oliver:

It is not that you oppose the Catholic Faith that is upsetting, or that you disagree with our faith, but it is that you come on to the forum (a Catholic forum) and post your "Interrogatories" as you did in another thread with a tone of superiority and arrogance! It is that you assume that YOUR interpretation is correct and that we are all a bunch of mindless Catholic idiots following the Pope around like a bunch of homeless pups. It is that you are insulting and obnoxious with your questions! That is what is upsetting! And no, I do not need to ask the Lord for grace so that I may somehow rise to the occasion of having yet another meaningless argument with yet another "wanna-be-evangelist."

Protestantism is a den of "wanna-be-prophets." I have numerous beloved friends who have gone off the deep end following these "Pied Piper's" off the edges of hazardous, steep and rocky cliffs.

Perhaps if I had not been a Protestant for 20 years, I would not catch the "trick questions" that you pose on this forum, all in order to enlighten the rest of us morons as to your way of thinking. But you see having been on the other side of the fence, and in numerous charismatic, bible believing, fundamentalist churches, I know exactly what you are doing! Please spare us, Oliver, and go find yourself some UN-believers to proslytize!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 22, 2003.

"Prophesying is not merely limited to predictions or fortelling."

A: That is absolutely correct.

"Actually it is speaking fourth God , speaking for God".

A: That is also correct.

"It means we all have this gift."

A: That is incorrect. We can all share ideas and insights about God, but that is not prophecy. Prophecy is an immediate gift to the community, delivered through an individual who is specifically inspired to speak that message at that time. No-one can simply "decide" to give a prophecy. The prophecy must be specifically given to a person by God before he/she can speak it to the assembly. In any given body that is open to the charismatic gifts, God will use some people in prophecy, and will not use others. Scripture specifically says not all are called to prophecy.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 22, 2003.

Wrong Paul. Everyone has the gift. Paul stated clearly in 1 Corinthians that ALL can prophesy one by one. No need to look for any hidden meaning there.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 23, 2003.

Oliver writes:

"Wrong Paul. Everyone has the gift."

Everyone may have the potential to prophesy, but Paul (forum Paul) simply states what the Bible (St. Paul) says: that God will not use prophecy in everyone.

1 Cor 12:27-31 - "Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it. Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way."

I'd prefer to rephrase the idea: The Holy Spirit may give spiritual gifts to anyone. God chooses to use us each in different ways, giving us different spiritual gifts.

Make sense?

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 23, 2003.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

That's not pointed at anyone in particular, Oliver or Paul... but just to emphasize that overall, I have a real problem with those who consistently claim "God spoke to me". The hearts and minds of men are too easily manipulated to assume that this is the case. How quickly this could become a justification for any and every desire a man may have; how quickly one can be deceived.

In general, it seems that God is very surgical and sparing when it comes to lending out His wisdom and insight, His messages... whereas by contrast, the dark forces are always ready and willing. Who can dare to take on the dark entities and not be deceived? Who can stand up to the Leviathon in the book of Job. Isn't this the same one who cast the shadows over all creation and put us in the quandry in which we exist?

In the rare cases where God does impart a clear message to someone for the benefit of the mystical body, it almost always comes at a price of extreme suffering. All the mystics were this way; all were of no real account, all were humble, it seems a majority of them are these incredible women... but they all have something in common: they all suffered intensely.

The one who does the will of the Father will most likely be doing the ordinary, the mundane, the dry, dull and boring. That is the true battlefield, and the real voices are very very subtle, and speak to the mind and heart, and in fact are probably more in the category of ordinary graces.

The new agers love to dip into the alter realm; they are entertained at the prospects of lifting the veil of the this visible side of life. Some things they see are real, some of it is truth; but truth out of context has as it's net gain, a lie. The knowledge comes too easily and without being merited, and it does not produce good fruit.

By sticking to the mundane and living the dry and dull existence, the dark forces must play our rules... if we hold to Faith and service of the Creator and prayer. We already know what the rules are, what the goal is, what the hope consists of. But if we actively seek out any forms of extra knowledge, we play on their home field, and by their rules, and we are no match for them and we will surely lose.

On the other hand, what God grants at His pleasure is His right and is to be respected... but, it cannot be asked for or demanded, or have claim laid to it. It seems to come at a great price, historically.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 23, 2003.

Emerald speaking of women mystics, do you know anything about Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science?

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 23, 2003.

God does speak to us in so many ways, mostly through other people.

There were times when I was confused about what to do, or prayed for an answer, whatever the situation and someone came along and said something to me which blew me away because I knew that it was God talking to me through that person or through a sentence in a book...once we are open to the workings of the Holy Spirit, we 'recognize' when God is speaking to us - I have no doubt about that.

Secondly, only good things come from God. He would never steer us in the wrong direction - so, I would know if the message was from God or not.

I never heard God's 'voice' speaking to me directly, but there are so many ways He speaks to us.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 23, 2003.

Just to be a bit facetious for a moment. Did you ever go to the track, and surrounded by thousands of prophets, join them in tearing up your tickets after the race?

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), February 23, 2003.

All I know about Mary Baker Eddie is that she somehow got it into her head that evil is a substance; that's kind of an old error actually. Based on that, it seems difficult to imagine her as a mystic, plus it skews the whole approach to the cause and merit of suffering.

It might not seem important at first, but understanding the nature of evil is very valuable... once you come to understand it as not this stand-alone existence like Mary Eddie does, but as actually a deprivation, or lack of being where being ought to exist, it improves your ability to get a little better grasp on existence and truth in general. Evil as deprivation of good is St. Aquinas' take on it, and there's some real valuable understandings there. He did, however, use Aristotle extensively, and Aristotle held that matter was eternal and there was this distant first-cause unmoved-mover God located at the extremity of the universe. That doesn't fit perfectly with Genesis 1:1. I guess I'm more of a Platonist in the long run.

Marylu, I've had those experiences too, but I have to be fair and say that there were also times when I thought something was an indication I was being led to think or do this or that, but it turned out to be just nothing. I think everybody has had both experiences... both the real and the imagined. Mary of Agreda (another suffering woman mystic) said something very interesting how uncertainty is an integral factor in growth in holiness; that improvement comes through uncertainty. I tried looking for the place in the book, but can't find it; sorry.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 23, 2003.

Mary of Agreda, Anne Catherine Emmerich, Anna Maria Taigi all had special gifts of prophesying and visions, and all did suffer as well... Suffering need not be looked at as bad, (though none of us wants to suffer!)it is merely a share of the Cross of Christ.

The great saints and mystics who suffered greatly, did so without complaint, as they knew that even their sufferings were gifts from a loving God.

But, they weren't all women! How about St. Pio?

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 23, 2003.

Dear Kiwi,

In defense of Gail, I believe she is referring to Olley's recently- posted "What would it take?" thread, which I have pasted below.

His inquiries about Catholicism seem extremely cynical, critical, and inaccurately formed.

Here's a question I would like to put to all zealous Catholics. What would it take for you to begin questioning your faith in Catholicism. Could there ever be an act by a pope or any of the clergy ?

Could there ever be a doctrine that contradicts previous doctrine ?

Could there be any verse in the bible ?

Why do I ask these questions ? I ask these questions because what I have seen time and time again are examples of error that put the Catholic church under serious questioning, and yet there always seem to be ways people find to wriggle out.

One of the most classic examples is saying that the Catholic church can't be wrong because the church was built on Peter, the first in the long line of infallible popes. Jesus giving the keys of the kingdom etc.

So it seems that no matter what is presented before Catholics, they seem to have this nice little cushion to fall back on. Yet what if that verse had been interpreted incorrectly ? What if the very fact that popes have done some pretty shocking things in the past is a clear indication of man being incapable of being the rock of the church. Ever considered the parable of the man who built his house on the sand and the other man who built his house on the rock ?

I would like to liken fallen man as sand and Christ as the rock. No matter how "spiritual" or "Holy" man is, history has proven him to be a sinner. Christ on the other hand was the perfect God-man. Catholicism's church has been built on man - sand. Protestant churches have been built on Christ.

Let's examine this a little further. The Catholic Religion teaches that the Holy Spirit only goes so far as to guide the pope in doctrinal matters of faith and morality. Now let us pause and think here - What is God's eternal purpose ? What is God's Economy ?

Genesis 1:26 - Let us make man in our image and according to our likeness...

God's eternal economy is to make man the same as he is in life and in nature, a counterpart, a bride.

The scriptures state clearly that as the first Adam became a living soul, the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. Which tree did Adam partake of ? The tree of knowledge, which brought him into sin. Which tree did God want him to partake of ? The tree of life.

We come to the period of time where the church was about to be started. Think deeply about this, think seriously about this ; Would God move from an economy of life to an economy of knowledge ? What does Paul say ? The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

The scriptures clearly reveal that the church is to become the bride. Who will the church marry ? The church will marry Christ. Would a human being marry a dog ? No, because the human needs a counterpart to match him, likewise, God needs a counterpart, a corporate man, with the divine life, to match him to be his bride.

Where does this leave us with the pope and infallibility ? Well, firstly, the Catholic teaching limits the work of the Holy Spirit to one person, namely a huma-elected pope. Not only do they limit the work of the Holy Spirit by person, but also by action, saying that the Holy Spirit only aids in doctrine.

Think about it, would God base His church only on doctrine ? Moreover, would God only work on one person at a time ? Does it say doctrine-giving-to-the-pope-only Spirit ? No, it says the life giving Spirit.

Furthermore, Peter tells us that we are all priests, that we ourselves also, as living STONES are being built up as a holy nation, a royal priesthood etc etc.

Now I leave it to you, do you just take the Catholic Church's word by default ? It seems awfully convenient to go with whatever they do. The Jews were around before the church started, they were God's chosen people. Did they do everything right or did they ever stuff up ? Being God's chosen people, could they not have argued that they too were infallible ? The prob is that they would set their minds on the things of men, and not on the things of God, just as Peter did, and consequently was called Satan.

To end on this note, do u think that Catholicism is setting it's mind on the things of men or God ? How about Protestantism ? Which one rely's on one man's speaking ? Which one rely's on the Holy Spirit ? Which one has two heads ? Which one has one head ? What will happen to the active pope when the Lord comes back ? Will the two rule as two heads, one visible, one invisible ? Will one go ?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 22, 2003

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 23, 2003.

I guess I will never be a saint, Anna, I am a complainer....sometimes...I don't usually suffer in silence - just ask my husband..

Emerald, you are absolutely correct....sometimes we think we are being 'led' but are not. We do have to be careful.

ML

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 23, 2003.

Dear ANna and Gail, Im sorry Ive always found Olly very humble and hes reminded me when I havent been very Christian like. I didnt read his post but I still dont think he should go away. Ive asked just as offensive questions of our faith on my own spiritual journey, lets help him through it, the truth is so close to him, lets not push him away. What with Deacon Paul around to give him a hurry up, hell be converting in no time! :-)

Thanks Emerald I ask because theres a Christian science office/bible study room in the bottom floor of my office block and I sometimes go down to during my lunch break, fresh with some of the excellent arguments here at lusenet in my mind to spar a bit with them . Great fun, Im very polite, almost play dumb but I think the logic of Catholic theology and a few very simple well timed questions can quickly show themn to be lacking in reason if not faith, its great fun, and I think they enjoy it as much as I do!

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 24, 2003.

Hi Kiwi,

What is Christian Science? What do they believe or not believe? I always wondered...I know a lot of Hollywood actors are not into the Christian Science thing, but I have no idea what it is...christian and science...?????

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 24, 2003.

This site should give you ample information on the group ... http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/c56.html

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 24, 2003.

Hi Ml, here is a link which I think is a better site than the link Paul provided as it explains in some detail the theology and history of this group. God Bless

http://www.carm.org/christian_science.htm

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 25, 2003.

"I know a lot of Hollywood actors are not into the Christian Science thing..."

ML, could you perhaps be thinking of the Dyanetics thing, the L Ron Hubbard group? Not sure, just wondering.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 25, 2003.

Yeah I think she is thinking of scientology Emerald, Tom Cruise and John Travaolta etc, different group, equally lost though.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 25, 2003.

Scientology... yeah, that's the one. Thanks Kiwi.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 25, 2003.

Well, Oliver, I guess I owe you an apology. Kiwi says I have been too harsh with you and possibly misunderstand your aim. If so, I do apologize. I am not used to being evangelized, and I may be overreacted to your post, in light of other posters here on this forum.

Christian Scientists -- Nicole Kidman, Tom Cruise, John Travolta are all Christian Scientists, Kirsti Ally too. Mary Baker Eddy started the movement. I just watched a Doris Day biography on the BIO channel, and apparently she was Christian Scientist as well. I am not sure why they use the word "Christian". I don't think they claim to be Christians in the classical sense.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 25, 2003.

Thanks, Kiwi,

For setting the record straight. :)

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 25, 2003.

OOPS!

I meant to say that Hollywood actors are 'into' Christian Science....the 'not' was a mistake...

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 25, 2003.

Gail Girl!!! Howdy to you! .. shall we continue the long list of things we have in common...do you..er, did you like Doris day too? I sure did. When I was 10 I'd sit around and listen to her album! oh brother!

anyway...to go back to this thread's origin..I do believe there is really something to St. Paul telling us that prophecy is the highest gift. I've been seeing in many Catholic prayer groups and circles God giving some new and powerful revelation of the gift of prophecy.

He so wants His kingdom to come, and is so willing to reveal that which is hidden. He so wants to bring an understanding of His meaning and purpose into our history. And He so knows we, humanity, needs edification, encouragement, and consolation. {1 Cor. 14:3}.

Prophecy is not a "Thus saith the Lord" phrase in a certain setting, it is more a lifestyle, to live in intimacy with God and knowing His will, and bringing forth His glorious purpose into the present. All Christians should at one point be led to give a prophetic word, but it doesn't mean you have a ministry in the prophetic. One who walks in the prophetic ministry has this gift flowing all the time.

The form of the word can come in many different ways, and should always conform to the correct spiritual protocol, according to the environment. A prophetic word can come forth as a 'Declaration' {Luke 4:16}, an 'acclamation in praise' {Luke 1:64}, an 'affirmation of love to the Church' {Eph.1:3}, an 'intercessory prayer' {acts 4:29}, an 'annunciation' {Luke 28}, a conversation {2 Kings 4:14}, and even a symbolic action as in Acts 21:11.

In a prayer meeting the gift of prophecy should always be subject to authority and in order, with respect to the particlar customs and protocol. My experience has shown me that certain preparations must be made, or attained, before we can enter into the prophetic realm, before we, especially as a group, enter into that certain intimacy with God in order to hear His voice. The goal is to worship and surrender so we are open wide to God. This brings us to know 'prophetic worship'. Worship without the prophetic is dead. That describes many a Sunday choir,sadly.

Praying in tongues sets us up in a right disposition so we can flow in all the gifts. In a healthy community there would be an anointed 'discerning team' present, as all prophecy should be subject to the right order. In a loving community we grow in the gift, and if mistakes are made, we learn from them. If one individual thinks he has the gift of prophecy but is not willing to be corrected or subject to authority..watch out!

When a community grows in discernment they get to know the prophets. They are able to tell who has unrepentant sin or has not dealt with strongholds, or who has their 'own agenda' that always comes out in the prophecy. Discernment will send up 'red flags' if the 'word' is judgemental and non-redemptive. The word should usually 'build up, edify, and encourage', point to God's purpose and destiny for the group or individual receiving it.

The given word should be scriptural and agree with Church teaching. It should display the character of Christ. And usually the 'hearers' have kind of an 'inward witness', it resonates in your spirit to be true.

Oliver, your interpretation of 1 Cor. 14:31 is out of context totally. If you keep reading to vs.33 you see Paul is talking about the order of the words being spoken at a prayer meeting, "You can all prophecy {meaning the prophets at the given meeting one by one so that all may learn and may be encouraged. Indeed the spirits of the prophets are under the prophet's control, since He is not the God of disorder but of peace". Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), February 27, 2003.

Hey Ms. Theresa:

Yes, I LOVE Doris Day, Katherine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn, Gregory Peck, and all the oldies. That's my big Sunday afternoon event -- watching old movies parked on the couch.

I enjoyed your post above. Very good on the gifts.

I do have a niece who was given a prophesy some years ago that she would have 5 children. Well, my niece is now married. She has purposefully set about having those five children in order to "fullfill the prophesy" I worry a bit about that. If a person is immature, the "prophesy" thing can get out of control real fast. My niece plans everything according to that prophecy; what kind of house to build, what kind of vehicle to buy. She strongly dislikes children, but she MUST fullfil the prophecy!

I had another friend who completely "flipped out" into prophesy mania. She was seeing spirits, having hallucinations, etc., etc. She was a Benny Hinn follower and Rodney Howard Brown. She would travel great distances to get to one of their meetings. She fasted 40 days, several times and got down to about 80 pounds.

People get into serious trouble when they start seeking the "gifts" rather than the "giver" of the gifts. In other words, seeking what's on the Master's table, rather than the Master.

Just give me Jesus!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2003.

Gail, you are a true AWOG!!!!!..... Awesome Woman of God!!

the example of your friend is a classic one of misuse and abuse, that undermines the purpose of the gifts and taints the credibility of true prophecy.

I agree.... just give me JESUS!!!

-- Theresa Huether (rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), February 28, 2003.

Wow, I've never been called THAT before . . . AWOG! COOOOOL! Right back at ya, Sis!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2003.