Here's a question I would like to put to all zealous Catholics. What would it take for you to begin questioning your faith in Catholicism.

Could there ever be an act by a pope or any of the clergy ?

Could there ever be a doctrine that contradicts previous doctrine ?

Could there be any verse in the bible ?

Why do I ask these questions ? I ask these questions because what I have seen time and time again are examples of error that put the Catholic church under serious questioning, and yet there always seem to be ways people find to wriggle out.

One of the most classic examples is saying that the Catholic church can't be wrong because the church was built on Peter, the first in the long line of infallible popes. Jesus giving the keys of the kingdom etc.

So it seems that no matter what is presented before Catholics, they seem to have this nice little cushion to fall back on. Yet what if that verse had been interpreted incorrectly ? What if the very fact that popes have done some pretty shocking things in the past is a clear indication of man being incapable of being the rock of the church. Ever considered the parable of the man who built his house on the sand and the other man who built his house on the rock ?

I would like to liken fallen man as sand and Christ as the rock. No matter how "spiritual" or "Holy" man is, history has proven him to be a sinner. Christ on the other hand was the perfect God-man. Catholicism's church has been built on man - sand. Protestant churches have been built on Christ.

Let's examine this a little further. The Catholic Religion teaches that the Holy Spirit only goes so far as to guide the pope in doctrinal matters of faith and morality. Now let us pause and think here - What is God's eternal purpose ? What is God's Economy ?

Genesis 1:26 - Let us make man in our image and according to our likeness...

God's eternal economy is to make man the same as he is in life and in nature, a counterpart, a bride.

The scriptures state clearly that as the first Adam became a living soul, the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. Which tree did Adam partake of ? The tree of knowledge, which brought him into sin. Which tree did God want him to partake of ? The tree of life.

We come to the period of time where the church was about to be started. Think deeply about this, think seriously about this ; Would God move from an economy of life to an economy of knowledge ? What does Paul say ? The letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

The scriptures clearly reveal that the church is to become the bride. Who will the church marry ? The church will marry Christ. Would a human being marry a dog ? No, because the human needs a counterpart to match him, likewise, God needs a counterpart, a corporate man, with the divine life, to match him to be his bride.

Where does this leave us with the pope and infallibility ? Well, firstly, the Catholic teaching limits the work of the Holy Spirit to one person, namely a huma-elected pope. Not only do they limit the work of the Holy Spirit by person, but also by action, saying that the Holy Spirit only aids in doctrine.

Think about it, would God base His church only on doctrine ? Moreover, would God only work on one person at a time ? Does it say doctrine-giving-to-the-pope-only Spirit ? No, it says the life giving Spirit.

Furthermore, Peter tells us that we are all priests, that we ourselves also, as living STONES are being built up as a holy nation, a royal priesthood etc etc.

Now I leave it to you, do you just take the Catholic Church's word by default ? It seems awfully convenient to go with whatever they do. The Jews were around before the church started, they were God's chosen people. Did they do everything right or did they ever stuff up ? Being God's chosen people, could they not have argued that they too were infallible ? The prob is that they would set their minds on the things of men, and not on the things of God, just as Peter did, and consequently was called Satan.

To end on this note, do u think that Catholicism is setting it's mind on the things of men or God ? How about Protestantism ? Which one rely's on one man's speaking ? Which one rely's on the Holy Spirit ? Which one has two heads ? Which one has one head ? What will happen to the active pope when the Lord comes back ? Will the two rule as two heads, one visible, one invisible ? Will one go ?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 22, 2003

Answers

Oliver,

I'm afraid you're denying Christ's own words, "Upon this [b]rock[/b]" (not sand) "I will build [b]My church.[/b]

Even many prominent Protestant leaders now agree that Peter is the rock to whom Jesus is referring. See: http://www.catholicoutlook.com/rock2.html. (Wish I knew how to post links.)

"What will happen to the active pope when the Lord comes back?" When the Lord returns in glory, it will be to judge the saved and the damned, Oliver, not to be the visible head of His Church.

God Bless,

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 22, 2003.

Gee, I wish I knew how to embolden also!

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 22, 2003.

Dear Oliver,

I think that many of us “zealous Catholics” have in the past questioned many things about our Faith. We came to better understand and embrace the Church’s teachings either by perseverance in the Faith, or by turning away, only later to realize our own error, and returning to the Truth with an even deeper understanding and appreciation than before.

Actions by popes and clergy, disagreement with doctrines, Bible verses taken out of context, yes, all these things and more have been used as reasons for doubt. What it all really boils down to is human pride. “I” am right, and the Church Christ founded is wrong.

“One of the most classic examples” of those outside the Church misstating Catholic teachings is the subject of papal infallibility.

We Catholics understand that pope is considered “infallible” only when speaking ex cathedra, when speaking on Faith and morals in union with the college of bishops. That does not mean that he doesn’t make any personal mistakes in life, or that he isn’t a sinner. Our Church has never taught that.

You say “Protestant churches have been built on Christ.” Built by whom? Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, et al…

But the Catholic Church was built by Christ, on Peter. Was Christ wrong, and Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, et al, right?

We Catholics have Christ’s Word that He was building One True Church on Peter, who He re-named Kepha, “Rock,” (in English, Peter). “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.”

You again misstate, “The Catholic Religion teaches that the Holy Spirit only goes so far as to guide the pope in doctrinal matters of faith and morality.” The Holy Spirit guides us all, and imparts grace (a share in God’s Divine Life) into our souls, including the souls of non-Catholics. We Catholics don’t believe that only the pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, and then only limited to certain circumstances. We do not place limits on the Holy Spirit. But we do have Christ’s Word promising us that “the powers of the netherworld shall not prevail,” against our Church.

Further the Church doesn’t just hand down dictates. She explains everything quite clearly. We are all welcome to read any encyclicals, etc., explaining Church teachings. I would strongly encourage you to read an encyclical on a particular teaching before you misstate and attack the teaching. (Or even read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Everything is footnoted with Scripture, Encyclicals, and the writings of early Church fathers.)

I am curious, Oliver, what denomination do you profess to believe in? Didn’t you just begin a different thread earlier, decrying the harmful effects of proselytizing?

May God bless you and His Holy Spirit guide you into the fullness of Truth.

Pax Christi

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 22, 2003.

"Here's a question I would like to put to all zealous Catholics. What would it take for you to begin questioning your faith in Catholicism."

The problem with this question is that it doesn't address the reality of the situation. I don't have "faith in Catholicism". I have faith in Jesus Christ, in full accord with all the teachings He gave to mankind, passed down through the centuries in the One true Church He personally founded on the apostles. That kind of faith is called Catholicism. Jesus told the Church He founded "He who hears you hears Me". Therefore your question is equivalent to asking what it would take to make me reject Jesus Christ. To that I can only say "to whom would I go? His Church has the words of everlasting life". Other kinds of faith, instead of looking to the objective fullness of truth given by Christ to His Church, look to subjective personal interpretations of early Catholic writings, and try to force a book of such writings to assume the authority Christ gave to the Church alone. Those kinds of faith are not Catholicism. Catholicism is full faith in Jesus Christ, within the context of the fullness of truth. Other churches express full faith in whichever parts of the teaching of Jesus Christ which they have retained. But that is insufficient to allow them to be Catholic.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 22, 2003.

"Here's a question I would like to put to all zealous Catholics"

No, Oliver, there are 30 questions you have posted in this thread alone to us "zealous Catholics." Far too many, and too far out there to answer all them in a single post!

"To end on this note, do u think that Catholicism is setting it's mind on the things of men or God? How about Protestantism?"

Catholicism setting it's mind? Not quite sure what you mean by that one, but Oliver, tell me, which Church observes, honors, and obeys the Natural Law, put into place by God, Who created all living things?

Which Church(es) have exchanged the natural for the unnatural, and have given themselves up for their lustful desires?

Please show me where in Scripture the Lord condones artificial contraception or sterilizing healthy, fertile women, so as to frustrate God's infinitely wise and wonderful plan of procreation, and to use women solely as objects of pleasure.

The Church is "in" the world, serving and guiding men and women who are in the world; but we true believers, The Mystical Body of Christ, are not "of" the world, and will not be seduced by--nor have our doctrines tainted by--the devil, the flesh, nor the world. Can you make the same claim of your church?

Please, Oliver, look into what it is that we really believe and practice before making the quantum leaps in logic which you have posted here.

May the Lord Jesus Bless you, and may His Holy Spirit guide you to the fullness of Truth.

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 22, 2003.

Dear Oliver

I can see that you are a very confuse Protestant who wants to be a Catholic but not very sure about yourself. You lack courage and faith to believe what you saw is TRUTH before your eyes and refuse to accept them (Catholicism) because of reason best known to you.

I pray for your conversion

God Bless

-- Christian (christian@tm.net.my), February 23, 2003.

I understand how Oliver is feeling. I am a Baptist, by religion, but I am a believer in God and my faith is in him, not any man. I follow no man. To any Catholics out there, explain this to me, what is with the Priests molesting the little boys? Is that part of your teachings? It can't be, so why do you still support these men and follow them as though they are God? I have associates who are Catholics and I notice that they do what ever they want, for example, fornication, curse, drink to drunkeness, you name it and they do it, intentionally. Then they just go to mass and ask for forgiveness, every week. That's not right!!! I understand a mistake or you fall when you're trying to do right and then repent, but all of this that is going on in the Catholic Church is nonsense, especially with these poor children. Maybe some of you followers should, sick down and tell your priest the difference between right and wrong. If you are supposed to be married to the church or to God, why are you having relations with little boys? I, by no means want to be a Catholic, nor do I hate anyone who is, I just don't like to see how the followers can support such sick individuals.

-- DIVA (diva3455@hotmail.com), March 13, 2003.

Dear DIVA,

So you have discovered that Catholics are sinners! (Aren't Baptists?) And you have discovered that Catholic priests are sinners! (Aren't Baptist ministers?) Do you support your pastor, even though he is a sinner? In spite of all the sensationalism in the secular press, only a small number of priests (less than 1%) have been accused of this particular type of sin; and a far smaller number have actually been convicted of any wrongdoing, so we don't yet know how many of these accusations are false. Still, we accept that all priests are sinners. So are all bishops and all Popes. If you don't support sinners in this world, you don't support anyone, because everyone is a sinner.

You probably haven't heard much about the Baptist pastor in Florida who is currently on trial for molesting over 150 children. Baptist sinners don't make the front page like Catholic sinners. The true Church, teaching the fullness of truth, is the greatest threat to liberals trying to justify a life steeped in untruth; so that's where the liberal secular press concentrates its attacks. However, sin is found in every church, and in fact sin is the reason Christ founded a Church. If we weren't sinners we would not need a Church - or a Savior.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 13, 2003.

Yes, I understand all of that, but come on. Jesus was a Jew, right? O.K. Anyway, in the city that I'm living in right know, over 65 Catholic Priests have been discovered molesting children. And if I had a Minister who was doing that, then no, I would not support him. He would be asked to step down, first off. That's how our church is ran. I don't know what your church does. Yes, I feel that a sin is a sin, but when you intentionally do things and just don't care, then you need to check yourself, because you don't seem to have the Holy Spirit in you, when you don't get convicted, when you're doing something knowingly wrong. Check yourself.

-- Diva (diva3455@hotmail.com), March 16, 2003.

Amen Diva.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 17, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Diva.

I'd like to request that you be careful to speak accurately about the problem of sexual improprieties by clergy. You wrote:
"Anyway, in the city that I'm living in right know, over 65 Catholic Priests have been discovered molesting children."

This statement implies ...
1. that 65 men have been convicted and are in jail,
2. that the events were probably very recent, and
3. that the events involved pre-pubescent individuals ("children"), making them cases of "pedophilia".

I suspect that if you would do some research, you would find that:
1. 65 men have been accused, but nowhere near that number convicted (and some have probably been falsely accused).
2. Most of the events occurred before 1993 [when the Church began to take strong action in most cities], with some going back to the 1960s or '70s.
3. Almost all of the events involved homosexual encounters between an adult male and an adolescent boy (age 13 to 17).

It is estimated that there have been about 60,000 priests serving in the U.S. in the last 40 years. Of these, as Paul said, fewer than 1% have even been accused (much less convicted) of sexual improprieties. Keep in mind that the Catholic Church is worldwide, with about 400,000 priests serving everywhere. Outside the U.S. and Europe, the percentage of priests getting mixed up in improprieties is even lower, because homosexuality is rejected far more strongly in South America, Africa, and Europe than in the decadent "West."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 17, 2003.

DIva:

You can ask your ministers to step down because they are not ordained like a priest is. Once a priest, always a priest. Ordination carries a mark like baptism... Protestant Church institutes or elects people to be pastors You are talking apples and oranges... No one is happy about unfortunate issues like molestation, but someone elses sin can't possible make me lose my faith in Jesus Christ!

-- patrick (patrick@truth.com), March 17, 2003.