Soon as I jumped in on a thread it got deleted. What happened?

Mateo basically stated that Jews did not know God was coming in flesh.

This was my reply...

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Child is born and it listed the names he was to be called. One was "The mighty God"

So yes, they did know God was coming in flesh.

-- Ric (94supratt@cox.net), February 26, 2003

Answers

Thank you for the info and verse, Ric.

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 26, 2003.

Ric and Mateo, hold your horses. Chapters 7-10 of Isaiah are related. They discuss the political situation in the reign of King Ahaz, the father of before the destruction of Samaria around 723 BC. See this link: to see the Jewish perspective.

Isaiah mentions in Ch. 8 the birth of one of his sons:Maher-shalal- hashbaz. He is told by God to give him this name. Then he says in ch. 7that a Young Woman (Almah in Hebrew, bethulah is virgin) will conceive a son, call his name Immanuel ( God with Us). Ahaz seems to know the woman, most likely his wife. The son may be Hezekiah himself. Probably he is immanuel. In ch. 9 it is metioned the affliction of the land of Naphtali and Zebulun (by the Syrians). "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom"; You could see the similarities to the other two previous names. This name is also symbolic. It may also refer to Hezekiah, because he was able to bring peace after a tumultous early reign that saw the Assyrian invasion of his Kingdom Judah. "9:6That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever" This verse confirms the connection to Hezekiah.

"One of the biggest mistakes ever made by the final compilers of the Gospels was, in the case of Matthew to claim prophecies of Isaiah to Jesus. These passages don't apply to him."

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), February 26, 2003.

The link is this one about the Jewish Tenach. I couldn't make print. http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Isaiah9.htm

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), February 26, 2003.

Elpidio,

I think you had an HTML train wreck! :-)

Anyway, here's the link.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 26, 2003.

Elpidio,

Jews rejected Jesus. Of course they will try to disprove that Jesus was profecied in the OT. Its clear in the KJV.

If you would like I can list about 10-20 passage that fortell Jesus coming.

-- Ric (94supratt@cox.net), February 26, 2003.

Would you like to know what Jews think of Jesus in general? Basically they think he was crazy, a heretic, etc. So basically the don't believe the Catholic church has ANY authority because it was alledged based on God through Peter. Elpidio you might want to be careful when using a "Jewish" viewpoint, because the Jews don't think very highly of Catholics.

-- Ric (94supratt@cox.net), February 27, 2003.

Jewish viewpoint of Christ.

http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/gideonbernstein/

-- Ric (94supratt@cox.net), February 27, 2003.

Ric, could you explain them and support your statements:

"Would you like to know what Jews think of Jesus in general? Basically they think he was crazy, a heretic, etc."

OK...

"So basically the[y] don't believe the Catholic church has ANY authority because it was alledged based on God through Peter."

Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus had any authority. St. Peter isn't an issue for them.

Elpidio you might want to be careful when using a "Jewish" viewpoint, because the Jews don't think very highly of Catholics."

What exactly does this mean?

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), February 27, 2003.

"Elpidio you might want to be careful when using a "Jewish" viewpoint, because the Jews don't think very highly of Catholics."

What exactly does this mean?"

DAHHH I think it sounds just as it was written.:D Jews do not like Christians. To them he has not come yet. It not just Catholics, it is any professing Christian.

"Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus had any authority. St. Peter isn't an issue for them"

I think Peter would be a issue to them since he was a follower of Christ. To them Christ has not come (and that is sad :( ) so it is like the newtestament is not even there to them aswell. (thats sad too:( )

-- jon (wardjr@juno.com), February 27, 2003.

Thanks for fixing my thread, Mateo. I have a hard time communicating with you guys. I was moved to a bungalow, not connected to the internet by wires, but by antenna. Sometimes I lose the signal for hours or days.

I know Ric and jon that the Jews don't accept Jesus. But let's realize that Jesus was a born a Jew. He lived as a Jew. Died as a Jew. Peter, James, and John, the three pillars of the Church, as Paul calls them, lived as Jews, practiced their Christianity as Jews. If we follow this logical reasoning, then a lot of beliefs, doctrines, practices must be rethought in a different way.

If not for Paul, there will still be circumcision and many other things.

When Marcion's mutilation of Luke and the acceptance of 10 letters of Paul around the middle of the second century forced the Church ( not yet known as Roman Catholic) to create a canon of scripture, we must be aware of what was taken out, what included in.

The Ebionites, the followers of James, the so called brother of the Lord, still practiced the Jewish religion. They accepted Jesus as the Messiah but not as God. Eusebius the Church historian mentions them around the 4th century. Eusebius himself was a supporter of Arrhius who did not think Jesus was the same as God himself.

Proto-Mark was the basis for the Gospel of Luke and Matthew. Q, a gospel sayings, parallels the uncanonical Gospel of Thomas and some of Luke's sayings. Matthew has material unique to it, but most of it comes from Mark and Q. Matthew has atendency to do 3 things: a)duplicate miracles like the bread that feeds thousands, curing to blinds instead of one,... b) Trying to show Jesus is the new Law Giver ( the New Moses) starting in Ch. 5. c) Try to show Jesus is the Messiah. Many of those cases shown by Matthew have no parallel in the other Gospels: Mark, Luke, John, and noncanonical Thomas. Examples: he will be called Immanuel, a voice cries in Rama, Mary a Virgin ( see Isaiah ch. 7), Jesus a Nazorean ( as opposed to a Nazarene), and so on.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), February 28, 2003.