I've been a Catholic all my life. Not just a "Cradle Catholic" but a "Womb Catholic"...generations of us as long as I can recall. Catholic schools, K-University.

BUT, on the rare occasion that I actually need to speak with a priest or a sister for spiritual guidance, it's like chasing the wind. They are either "too busy" or "disinterested" or simply out of pocket and unreachable. I consider myself a very resourceful person and I don't give up easily until I've exhausted every possible avenue available to me, which is why I am so frustrated!

I live in a fairly large diocese with a significant Catholic demographic, so I don't understand the dynamic going on here.

Case in point: I found myself needing a little guidance from my priest. I call and he suggests that I phone the diocese center (because he's too busy) and ask for a referral. I do so and the center then refers me to the associate priest at the Cathedral, who then (you guessed it) refers me back to the diocese center. It was as if he didn't hear me...so off I went to phone the diocese again. That time, I asked if a Sister was available. I was given the name of 2 different locations, a motherhouse and a convent. And without getting too long-winded, I was told by one Sister that "the Sisters were retired and could not offer spiritual guidance" and the other location said, "You should really call your priest."

Did I give up? No.

I called 5 different churches over a period of a month and didn't get past suggestions to "call my parish priest" (which didn't work) or "call the diocese" (shot down twice there). Also, lest I fail to mention, in my pursuit to speak with a priest, I waited after Mass at two different parishes to ask in person if they might reserve some time for me to meet with them. Response? "Certainly, just call the office and we'll work something out." I did -- they didn't.

Then I went to the laity...ministries. Nutshell? They didn't feel they could help. "Spiritual Guidance? Well, that's really an area that you'd benefit most from the Father."

So after running around like Wiley Coyote with an M-80 strapped to my back for weeks, I decided to phone a Presbyterian church and simply ask "Is there a pastor who I could speak with about spiritual guidance?" And voila...they put me right through. Thinking it was just a coincidence, I phoned three other churches, choosing non-denominational sects, and they all were prompt in putting me through to pastors, and offered a litany of names that would be "more than happy" to help me in any way possible.

So, I'm just so upset right now, trying to keep my composure and wondering if I should go where someone will actually care to shepherd me.

Any suggestions on a denomination who actually shepherds their flock?

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com), March 01, 2003

Answers

Dear Caspian (a/k/a Wiley Coyote), What a story, or horrible story! I am so sorry you are going through this. It shouldn't be like that. I live in small diocese, life is easy going, people have lots of time. The Father at my parish is ALWAYS available.

But being from Protestant denominations for 20 years, I can tell you that you may "band-aid" your situation for now, but then open yourself up to many many more wounds. I won't get into "Protestant bashing" here, but I will say that for you to switch churches because you aren't getting the attention you need (and deserve) may be somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction, don't you think!

Please pray about all of this. Ask the Lord to give you abundant wisdom. Perhaps the Lord just simply wants you to come to Him with your problems, and He is shutting off these other doors in order to point you to Him. (He has done that with me MANY times)

In fact, let me just offer this prayer for you: Dear Heavenly Father, I lift up Caspian to you right now, and Lord I ask you to give your grace in this situation, that you would help in this great time of need. I ask Lord, that you poor forth your wisdom and comfort of the Holy Spirit upon Caspian. I ask for the prayers of the saints already with you, I ask that you guide Caspian to that priest or sister who can really help. Please open the right doors, and close the wrong ones. I ask for the sweet encouragement that only the Holy Spirit, the great encourager can give. Amen!

Love,

Gail

P.S. Also, please feel free to share your need here on the forum. We may be 2nd best, but sometimes God uses us simple folk too!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2003.

Caspian/Wiley,

You shouldn't leave your church for the reasons you describe. Other churches have their failings, too.

There is a strong tradition of spiritual direction (and directors)in the Catholic Church. Check around.

And you might need a counsellor, who has psychological training, more than spiritual direction. A good spiritual director should know the difference. Again, check around -- inside your church and outside.

Good luck!

-- Origen (origenmoscow@yahoo.com), March 01, 2003.

Dear Caspian,

Many times we run around frantically trying to provide for our own needs, without much success. You mention the idea of "shepherding". Have you taken time to speak to the shepherd? Have you asked God to guide you to the one He wants to counsel you? It is true that priests are often overworked these days, with one priest in a parish often doing the work previously done by three or four. But it is also true that God provides for His people when we place our trust in Him. Stop trying so hard to make it happen, and let Him make it happen for you. He will. He said so. Just ask Him and you will see the difference.

As for leaving the Church God gave to the human race in favor of some arbitrary manmade tradition, that sounds a bit like accepting a loan in Confederate dollars because you weren't able to find a loan in American dollars. Of course that's an overstatement - I'm not denying that a Protestant minister might be able to offer some worthwhile advice. But abandoning the fullness of God's truth, and the sacraments which are the principal source of grace God has provided, because of a scheduling problem would surely be a poor start in a quest for guidance and truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 01, 2003.

Caspian, Do not stop following the truth the Catholic Church teaches, just cease supporting it until it turns from its errors. If the Church is wrong, you are the real Catholic and the Church needs examples of which it has so few, especially among the clergy. Do not join another Church that is just another form of adultery and you will do harm by doing so. You can not support the Church when it errs but just the same you can not join another.

-- Karl (parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), March 01, 2003.

That is quite sad!

Some priests don't want to be bothered.

I recently went through a difficult time, and I needed to speak to a priest. I know of a priest in our archdiocese who is a wonderful man, and so I approached him, and he said meet with him after Mass. I sat down with him, had quite a discussion, and he was very helpful, I will never forget the help that he gave me, when I was going through such a difficult time.

This priest is the rector at the Cathedral here, and his dutes are quite extensive, and besides he is dying of cancer. Does that stop him from helping others! NO WAY! He goes out of his way, even when he is suffering, as you can see that he is in pain, and he always has a kind word, and helpful advice for you.

When he became rector of the Cathedral, the other priests told him, not to have his office in the front, as people outside can see that he is in, and will bother him. His reply, was the priests are there to be bothered!

Because of his reputation of helping others, and being such a devout and holy priest, he is 'bothered' day and night by people who need his advice. Does he ever complain. NEVER!

He is more concerned with the Cathedral running smoothly, then he is of his cancer, which is through his abdomen, and now on his lungs.

Please pray for this wonderful priest, and that more priests are like him.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), March 01, 2003.

This story reminds me of the good samaritan. The supposed enemy was the one doing the will of the Father.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 01, 2003.

Caspian,

Your story is very moving, and distressing. I will be remembering your intentions in my prayers.

When reading your dilemma, I was feeling frustrated just reading it; I was thinking that you should copy your above post into the form of a letter, and mail it to each of these people who turned you away...and a copy to the editor of your diocesan paper as well. I was thinking that this would serve as a wake-up call to some clergy to pay more attention to the "little guy" who has spiritual needs, too.

But then I read Paul's post, and his advice is really wise.

Pray.

Ask God to direct you to the priest He wants to counsel you.

I believe in the devil, and perhaps he was making all of these other priests and sisters just too darn busy, preoccupied, and hurried--and you, too irritated--because he wants you to step outside the Church.

The advice you may recieve outside the Church may not be the best for your soul, but may make you "feel good"! So, do pray, and don't leave us members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Perhaps this is a problem that you could discuss with a priest within the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Tell your confessor, at least of the weakness in Faith that you are experiencing, due to these cirumstances. Ask God for the grace of perseverence.

If you can find the time, spend an hour before the Blessed Sacrament. When men fail you, know that Jesus Christ is with you always. If you make time for Him, surely He will send you a priest who will make time for you.

Can you imagine how lonely Our Lord is, waiting for his beloved faithful to come spend time with Him in the Blessed Sacrament? Offer Him this sadness, isolation, and rejection you are experiencing. He knows it well. Perhaps He is simply allowing you to share a small taste of the bitter loneliness He experiences in the tabernacle...perhaps even at your own parish...

Will keep you in my prayers. Keep the Faith!

Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), March 01, 2003.

Hey Caspian,

Please dont leave our faith just because you are not getting the help you deserve....As you know, your Priest is a busy person....In my church, I have 4 different priest just to balence out the number of people in my parish...when the priest can not speak with me right away, I usually take advantage of the confessional.....If you really need to talk with your priest, why wait for Sunday to talk to them???? Why not go to see him on Saturday during confession? At least in the confessional, you can speak to him and not be inturrupted by ANYONE....In the confessional you could talk about your problem and get the answers you need to help you to be a better CATHOLIC....You're Catholic, stay Catholic...Please dont leave our faith, and remember....... our faith needs you just as much as you need it.....take care and peace be with you....:0)

Always, Jacob

-- Jacob (flake777@hotmail.com), March 02, 2003.

Maybe there is a reason why they don't want to speak to you. Are you sick? I mean do you have psychological problems that are visible at a the first glance? No wonder priests don't want to do a psychologist to people. A priest is a psychologist for poor people (who cannot pay the real one) someone said. But it doesn't mean they have to do this job!

-- Charly (charlymoe@aol.com), March 02, 2003.

Caspian.

Try going to a different Catholic Church. You can start over with the new Church. It's the people who are "off".

-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 02, 2003.

Thank you for all your responses.

Charly: Do I have psychological problems that are visible at the first glance?

I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cringe at that question, though the latter eventually took precedence. The short answer is "no." I humbly submit that I do not believe I give the impression of a disturbed person. I was a flight attendant for many years, and now I am a stay at home Mom and a volunteer counselor for the Crisis Pregnancy Center. Secondly, I do not view or parallel priests with psychologists, as you suggested. I needed guidance on a spiritual matter and turned to my Church. --- Jacob and Anna: I cannot speak with my priest in the Confessional because my parish only allows 15 minutes on Saturday afternoons from 5:00 to 5:15. Sceduling an appointment outside that time frame has proved unsuccessful. --- Gordon: Your post was very helpful. I will definitely pray for your priest! --- Gail: Thank you for the intercessory prayer. --- Paul: Let me see if I understand your point. If I seek spiritual guidance from my Church, am turned away, and consider spiritual guidance elsewhere, I am "abandoning" God's Truth? If this is true, then what is to be said of those who take a vow to uphold the Truth and Sacraments and "abandon" the sheep who seeks after its shepherd? What disturbs me the most is not my own self-interest, but the overwhelming possibility that I am not the only one who has sought out a priest, only to be turned away.

---

I am going to devote this Lenten season to prayer for patience and for the Religious to realize that they are called to SERVE the Faithful in all ways - out of LOVE, even when it isn't "convenient" for them, just as I am called to serve in my Vocation as a mother and wife, even when if it isn't always perfectly "convenient" for me, and I do so out of LOVE.

Maybe I didn't always want to wake up at 3:00 am, trip over baby toys on the way to the kitchen, and warm a bottle of milk when I was a new mother, but I did so because of my complete adoration for the gift God had given me. Maybe a priest doesn't want to make time to spend a few moments with a parishioner, knowing there are other pressing issues awaiting his attention, and that it will set his schedule off by 15 or so minutes, but he should, out of complete adoration for the Calling he received from Christ.

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com), March 02, 2003.

It reads that all of your contacting effort was made by phone. If that is so, I might try the face to face approach to get something set up with a priest.


-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), March 02, 2003.

Gail, that is a beautiful prayer you wrote! Thank you.

Caspian, please know that you are not alone in your efforts to get a priest to spend time 'listening' to you and guiding you. It has become a common practice among our pastors. In some cases, a pastor is the only priest leading a parish of 3,000 or more families and truly does not have the time to give to his parishioners. Some of our pastors have become business administrators and no longer have the time to be shepherds.

Just take a look at hospitals and nursing homes. It is no longer priests who bring communion to the sick, but the lay ministry. There just are not enough priests. Nursing homes are lucky if they have a mass once a month.

There are many retreat houses with Spiritual Directors who may be available to help you. If you cannot find a priest in a parish to help you, try calling the various Spiritual Centers who direct retreats, and spiritual programs. You may find someone there who can help you.

As Gail said, pray to God for guidance and ask him to lead you to the right person who will help you. Or, when you go to confession, instead of going into your problems at length, tell the priest that you are dealing with a spiritual crisis and ask him if he could lead you to the right spiritual director, counselor - someone who can help you.

Sometimes, the deacons in the church are available to help also. Deacons can be very helplful; are well trained and well informed in church matters, spiritual matters, and do "live in the real" world with family, children, spouses, in-laws, etc...and know personally the problems we deal with. Contacting your deacon is another avenue for you to look at.

May God bless you and may he hear your prayer and lead you to the right person or place...just remember that you are not alone. Jesus is waiting for you to ask Him for help...Ask!

ml

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 02, 2003.

Caspian,

I am even more saddened now, to hear that your priest only affords 15 minutes per week for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

As you know, this Sacrament offers cleansing to our souls. With hundreds, perhaps more, of parishoners, he is not offering enough time for them to rid their souls of the stains of sin. We are encouraged to receive the graces of this Sacrament frequently, and since only an ordained priest can administer this Sacrament, it should be his primary duty, next to celebrating Mass.

I, too, am a stay-at-home mom. I have a large family. I've explained to them all that the Sacrament of Reconciliation is like taking a shower for our souls. We shower our bodies frequently; wouldn't we also want to be spiritually clean? What if I only allowed my shower to be used by my entire family for 15 minutes per week??????? Peee-Ewwww.

I do strongly advise you to seek the Sacrament of Reconciliation in a parish that offers it frequently and for longer than 15 minutes.

Don't mind Charly's post. Some people automatically jump to conclusions sometimes. I was once told by a priest who didn't wear his Roman collar in public that he did this because the collar is a "kook-magnet." I just smiled and said, "That's because that collar represents Christ, and those rejected by the world know that in Him, they find unconditional love." (Meaning that the priest should be loving these people as Christ would.) I should mention that he is an ex-priest now. Whether a person suffers from psychological problems or not, there's no excuse for a priest to give them the brush off.

Do seek the graces of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Go as far as you have to, to get this great gift from Jesus.

I think Paul was cautioning you about seeking a shepherd outside the flock, as the guidance you receive may not be in keeping with the Church's teachings. Many Protestant churches have rejected many of the Truths of the Catholic Faith, and non-denominational sects can be downright anti-Catholic.

If your questions are anything that we could help with, feel free to post a New Question, and we'll help if we can.

MaryLu, what was that website? www.askfr.pat? That might be another good source. Caspian, do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? There are so many answers to life's questions in that book, it is amazing to me.

You remain in my prayers! May this Lenten season enrich us all.

Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 02, 2003.

Caspian I encourage you also to stay within your 'home'. The key is prayer, the Lord is FAITHFUL, He will provide, and once you get a taste of a good spiritual director/counselor you will rejoice that you continued your search without abandoning the fullness of truth. The search will be worth it and once you make the connection you'll never have the urge to leave again.

The condition of our Church seems so bad at a glance, especially when reading your story. I've been discouraged at the lack of faith of some Catholics, but the hidden gem we have will prevail in those with such a great faith, God will lead you to them.Keep praying and listening.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), March 02, 2003.

I just wanted to add something...

For all of you who DO have priests that make themselves available, I hope you all take the time to thank them and let them know how precious and unique they are...these days.

I'm not sure what I am going to do - I'm still on the fence, so to speak. But, I long for the days that everyone had a Confessor. Growing up, we often had the priest over for dinner, my mother led the Rosary at the Cathedral...and if any of you are old enough to recall, the days when priests were actually the ones who picked up the phone when you called the Rectory.

For the record, as some of you have misread my first post, or I failed to be clear: I have contacted 5 Churches by phone. I have spoken in person with my priest following Mass. I have called the diocese office, twice. I have spoken with the Sisters of Mercy Convent and the Motherhouse for the Dominican Sisters. I have even contacted a monastery in another state.

They all have pointed me in any other direction than theirs.

All of this contact for a few minutes of spiritual guidance revolved around the experience of losing a child and the struggle to hold on to my faith. I have support from my family and friends, the bible, the catechism, but this was a matter of my soul and I wanted a priest.

I don't think that was too much to ask.

Caspian

-- Caspian (Caspianz@yahoo.com), March 03, 2003.

Dear Charly,

I disagree with you totally. It is the "duty" of the priest to 'take the time' to listen to his flock who is hurting. Priest are there to 'serve' not be served, but, unfortunately, many have forgotten that.

Dispite what you may think, not 'all' of our priests are good shepherds who truly care about saving the soul of their flock. Isn't that their main job - to save our souls, to be there for us and guide us spiritually? Who else are we supposed to go to for guidance? Yes, God's word guides us, but sometimes we need help with interpreting God's word..

It doesn't always take long to make someone feel like you care - a hug can do wonders or just a few minutes of listening and then the priest can direct him/her elsewhere for help according to the person's needs.

I have seen both - priests who take the time when they have no time to give (as Jesus would do) and those who just don't want to be bothered. Because a man is a priest, does not necessarily make him a good priest or a holy man. I hope that God leads Caspian to a holy, spiritual leader who truly cares about her soul.

My friend was in the confessional last Easter (when the lines were very long) and the priest asked her (in the middle of her confession) to get up and check the lines because he was tired and wanted to get out of there!!!! Immediately after her confession, he opened the door to see how long the line was....so, not all priests are willing to make sacrifices - at least pastoral priests....

So, before everyone jumps on me, I am not saying this about all priests, but there are some who are not very spiritual - where saying the mass has become a job and some of our priests truly need prayers.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 03, 2003.

Charley:

You asked, "I'm just curious. When you have spent so much time on the phone why didn't you have the thought to just go to another church in which there they have confessions for more than just those 15 min? Is is so difficult to find it?"

I live in a rural area. The nearest Catholic school, which my son attends is a 45 minute drive each way. The metropolitan area with the larger Catholic demographic is nearly an hour away. There is only 1 Church near me. It has 600 parishioners and 2 priests, both who are more than a decade past retirement age. Regardless of the distance I did my best and I think that you are very rude to say I am "complaining" about losing a child and wanting to speak with a priest.

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspian@yahoo.com), March 04, 2003.

MaryLu,

Thank goodness for your post. After reading Charley's comments, I felt a little defensive and very misunderstood.

I don't think anyone should or will "jump on your case" about your viewpoint, because you are not putting down the Church or the priests, but are just making an honest observation about the nature of the human heart, based on your own experiences.

I never set out to monopolize the priest's time. You are right when you say that even a hug can make all the difference in the world. That is what I was seeking, a "Spiritual Hug" ... and just to hear the words that my child was safe in the arms of Christ. I know it in my heart, but so longed to hear the words from my priest.

I'm sorry some of you feel I was/am complaining. It wasn't my intention.

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com), March 04, 2003.

This is an unfortunate consequence of what opening the Church hierarchy up (more) to the laity has done. Many priests now have delegated a lot of what they used to do to the laity. You want pre-marriage counseling? See a lay person. Religious education? Same thing.

In many areas, the priests no longer live on Church grounds--they keep business hours. And yes, that is when they are actually the assigned Pastor and associates--think about all the parishes that only have visiting priests who are there only to say Mass!

I have found that if you really want to be able to talk to a priest, especially in the larger parishes, if you're not on a church committee or a large donor, it is very difficult.

Caspian, you have touched on a real problem, and while yes, it is always possible to pray to God and ask for His guidance, sometimes you want to talk to a real person. And if you can always go to God directly, then why do you need to be at Mass on Sunday?

I do agree with the suggestion to publicize your experience, although be prepared for questions such as "are you registered with the parish?" which to me is none of their concern, as it shouldn't be any concern how much a particular person puts in the collection (although some priests keep track of that too).

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 04, 2003.

Caspian, without trying to make your day more difficult - I never said you were complaining about loosing your child etc. You were complaining about not to be able to have a time with a priest for spiritual guidance. I understand you and I understand them too. You know how many people who have nobody would like to have somebody (a priest, why not?) to listen to them? So many, that priests generally cannot do it. Is it sad? Perhaps. Is it understandable? Surely it is. If you told them in 3 words you lost a child and you want to have an emergency talk with a priest I think they would do the best to give it to you. Asking about spiritual guidance is asking for troubles. The priest can easily imagine - yet another women who would like to have a non paid psychologist or someone interested in her life. There are so many cases of that, you know. Also, as you said that you live in a large diocese with many catholics I did not imagine the next church was 1 hr drive or so. Anyway, the spiritual guidance as a constant service is not given anymore outside a confession in "normally" functioning parishes (what a paradox!) because priests cannot have time for it. As I said, I understand them and I understand you. God bless!

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 04, 2003.

Charly, your last post was somewhat sexist. "Just another woman...."

You didn't mean it that way, did you?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 04, 2003.

Once again, MaryLu - let us not be simplistic. There is a big difference in saying "a priest must listen to his flock who is hurting" and thinking that a priest must listen to everyone with a problem! Priests attract fools (no hurt to anyone, ok?) sick mind people and psychologically disturbed individuals like a magnet and have to defend their time from them. For the sake of their priestly service to all and its quality! Have you seen a psychologist who could take 20 persons a day with his full attention? He would become crazy! How could a priest? If a priest said - flock, it's my duty to listen to everyone of you whenever you feel, he would be off in a month or so... I believe that the problem Caspian described is better understood in terms of priests' self-defence rather than priest's bad spiritual profile. Instead of saying - bad priests! I try to understand them. That was my point. Maybe I am just too a big optimist?

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 04, 2003.

GT, a man or a woman, who cares, but the fact is that women have more of an inclination for this kind of service. By the way, they are more numerous in church too...:-) Just kidding!

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 04, 2003.

Charly, I do understand about the priests needing "their time" too so they can recharge their batteries, so to speak. Our Parish Administrator even told parishioners NOT to let people know where the pastor lives, or his phone number (it's a smallish parish, but he also says Mass at two other locations), because they are concerned for not only his private time but his safety as well (and no, it is NOT a crime-ridden area). Go figure.

I personally think priests should live at the Church, but then I remember when they did, and I never heard any complaints about people "bothering" them--it came with the life.

I honestly don't think women are more inclined to necessarily want to go to someone to talk things out, although we do have the good sense to ask directions while driving....:).

Maybe what priests could do is set aside an "open office" day once or twice a month, when they would actually be available to talk without being disturbed by office business.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 04, 2003.

GT,

There are times when someone really wants to talk to a priest and not all are distrubed.

I used to work in a rectory and the truth of the matter the pastor I worked for just did not want to be bothered with people's problems. He used to tell me to say he wasn't in right now. I had to do that time and time again and there were times when it was downright sad - times when depressed teenagers needed an ear, or a confession, times when someone just discovered they had a terminal illness, or serious financial problems and the pastor was upstairs in his room watching television - and that is the absolute truth!

Not only did he ask me to lie to people, he was lying himself...One day a young woman came in - a devout parishioner, and just learned that she had terminal cancer. She did not know how to deal with it, knowing she would be leaving 3 small children and her husband behind, fearful of what she would be facing herself..She just wanted someone to listen. I did the listening. She asked me to have the pastor call her, but he never did.

It is very sad, indeed. Funny, how Mother Teresa had the same 24 hours in a day that a priest does, but always made the time for those in need! Sorry, but a priest is not a business man. A priest represents Jesus Christ on earth and should be willing to make the sacrifices required of him. If he wants to be a businessman, then leave the priesthood and go into business. We need priests who will guide us.

We should make appointments to talk with our priest, yes...but please return our calls and take the time for your parishioners...

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 04, 2003.

BTW, the last inicident with the woman who found out she had terminal cancer, was the last day I worked in the rectory.

I told Father that I would no longer lie to people for him...he can do that himself. I walked out the door.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 04, 2003.

MaryLu, you and I are in agreement, and fortunately, most priests are there for the people, but it is slowly going the other way, sad to say. I think a lot of people have given up even trying to talk to their priests any more, because it has become so difficult.

And I would certainly hope that people would have the courtesy to make an appointment!

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 04, 2003.

Ok, I will give my two cents. I had 2 priests as my personal friends. We spoke about a lot of things together. One of them got a phone after midnight of a woman from the parish who arrived at an airport and didn't have keys from her home. She wanted the priest to call her friend (she didn't have her number on her...) so that she would come to pick here up... When the priest refused, she said - you must do it because I want it! He told her *he* wanted to sleep and hang up on her. Bad boy! Another time a woman (sorry for those sexist overtones here)asked the priest to come and eat in her house. He did. She called then several time a day to ask the same again and again... Other persons wanted a baptism certificat calling the rectory at 20:30 - it must be done now because tomorrow I leave for another country... etc. you get the point. Both priests told me that the majority of people calling are this kind of cases, just an infinity of variations on the same theme. No wonder they are sick and tired of this "pastoral" life. And yes, no wonder that some peple needing a priest get caught in the net with crazies. I believe that these friends of mine would be more than happy to offer their time if they new "it's for real". Oh, did I mention one of these priests got a phone at 3AM from a mather who's sun was killed (for drugs) that night and he needed to go to her house to console her? Never mind that the whole day after he was good for nothing as he couldn't sleep and all the work needed to be done. People are selfish bastards and priests are their prefered victims.

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 04, 2003.

Sorry, Charly, but I disagree with you that people are selfish "bas..s" as you call them.

Of course, it is absurd that someone should call a priest at an ungodly hour because she lost her keys...I am not talking about phone calls like that.

And, yes, priests are awoken in the middle of the night to console people who lost a loved one, to give the last rights, etc..unfortunately, that goes with the territory...Doctor's get called away from their families in the middle of the night too, and so do firefighters, policemen, and EMT workers.

I am talking about priests who are 'selfish' and there are many of them.

What about the parishioners who run the parish? The Youth Ministers, The Altar Rosary Society, St. Vicent's DePaul, Eucharistic Ministers, lay ministers, ushers, just to name a few....these people give their blood, sweat and tears to the parish and are not selfish at all....

Jesus was not selfish, Mother Teresa was not selfish, and our priest should not be selfish...but, some of them are....and some are true followers of Jesus and give until it hurts..Mother Teresa said we should give until it hurts.

Perhaps there should be some changes made in our church - Perhaps lay people should be hired to run the business end of the church and let our priests be priests again.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 04, 2003.

Well, the last sentence in my post was obviously a dramatic one, to make the point... If you want to bang my head for it, go ahead. The majority of people would get the nuance I wanted to express without preaching about unselfish Jesus (how pathetic). But your way of seeing priests as bad priests is really far away from my friendship with them.

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 04, 2003.

A priest has to find a balance in terms of helping people. I remember my parish priest getting a phone call in the middle of the night, and telling the person he was sleeping. The person on the phone found this strange, and said that God does not sleep. Unreasonable people have to be told to back off in a firm but kind manner.

Well after hearing about the priest you mentioned Mary Lu, and my account above of the priest I know who is dying of cancer and yet is busy day and night helping people, has simply increased my respect for him all the more. It simply amazing what this priest will do, while being in pain, to help others. He is living saint in our midst, and will most likely not survive the year, all the while helping others.

I'm sure half the archdiocese will turn out for his funeral.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), March 04, 2003.

ML,it would be not only naive but also impossible to realize if you think a priest must go in the middle of a night to console someone who lost their love one. There are parishes with tens of thousands parishioners. As people die round the clock if they wanted their part of the consolation the poor priest could not last long. MaryLu, be realistic!

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 04, 2003.

If you believe God is leading you elsewhere then you should listen to that still small voice. Perhaps he closed the doors to the priests and opened them up to pastors for a reason? I strongly recommend you try a presbyterian church, certainly something without a denomination and just see what you make of it all and be open to hearing what God says. If that's where you can make your home and feel accepted, then you do just that. Don't make yourself miserable for the sake of pleasing others. Who says we always get it right first time anyway? If you do decide to try another place out, just ask for God to make it easy for you, because believe me...changing churches can be sooo scary!

-- Emily (emilystepney@hotmail.com), March 04, 2003.

Charly,

I 'DID NOT' say that priests 'must' get up in the middle of the night to console people who lost a loved one...I said they do get up in the middle of the night to console the family who just lost a loved one...usually to give last rights to the deceased...I never said they 'must' do that....so please read what I said before commenting.

Also, I never said 'all' priests are bad priests...read my posts again...please??

Like any other business (and our church has become a business in many ways), there are some priests who are very good at what they do...and some who are not good at what they do. They are human beings with different personalities - some are very compassionate, kind, and very Jesus-like in their dealings with people. They live for Jesus..and strive to be like Him in everything they do and say. They have become priests to save souls, to bring others to Jesus, to help people - even when it hurts to do so....this is their life and they follow in Jesus' footsteps - there are many, many, good priests and I know a lot of them.

I did not and I repeat did not say that all priests are bad...never said one priests is 'bad.' I never used the word bad. I just told of my experience with a priest and didn't say he was bad...in my opinion, what he did was inexcusable and behavior I would not expect from a priest - a man I confess my sins to.

Let us remember that our priests are just as human as we are....they, too, are sinful, they too go to confession....but, on a spiritual level I think they should be a step above us - they should 'guide' us spiritually because that is their job!!!! and they should find the time to do that and if they don't have the time to guide us spiritually then something is wrong somewhere. If our priests cannot guide us who can?

I have many stories that would make your hair stand up...but will not bother to post them.

May God bless our priests and may Our Dear Blessed Mother pray for them. ml

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 04, 2003.

Charly,

I 'DID NOT' say that priests 'must' get up in the middle of the night to console people who lost a loved one...I said they 'do' get up in the middle of the night to console the family who just lost a loved one...usually to give last rights to the deceased...I never said they 'must' do that....so please read what I said before commenting.

Also, I never said 'all' priests are bad priests...read my posts again...please??

Like any other business (and our church has become a business in many ways), there are some priests who are very good at what they do...and some who are not good at what they do. They are human beings with different personalities - some are very compassionate, kind, and very Jesus-like in their dealings with people. They live for Jesus..and strive to be like Him in everything they do and say. They have become priests to save souls, to bring others to Jesus, to help people - even when it hurts to do so....this is their life and they follow in Jesus' footsteps - there are many, many, good priests and I know a lot of them.

I did not and I repeat did not say that all priests are bad...never said one priests is 'bad.' I never used the word bad. I just told of my experience with a priest and didn't say he was bad...in my opinion, what he did was inexcusable and behavior I would not expect from a priest - a man I confess my sins to.

Let us remember that our priests are just as human as we are....they, too, are sinful, they too go to confession....but, on a spiritual level I think they should be a step above us - they should 'guide' us spiritually because that is their job!!!! and they should find the time to do that and if they don't have the time to guide us spiritually then something is wrong somewhere. If our priests cannot guide us who can?

I have many stories that would make your hair stand up...but will not bother to post them.

May God bless our priests and may Our Dear Blessed Mother pray for them. ml

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 04, 2003.

Emily,

You wrote "If you do decide to try another place out, just ask for God to make it easy for you, because believe me...changing churches can be sooo scary! "

This is especially true if you leave the Church that Jesus instituted.

-- Glenn (Glenn@nospam.com), March 04, 2003.

Dear Caspian,

I forgot to let you know how sorry I am that you lost a child. I cannot honestly say I know the pain you are experiencing because I never lost a child, but I can only imagine the pain you feel, the hole that is in your heart. Please accpet a {{{hug}}} from me. I will remember you in my prayers.

I am sorry that you did not find a priest or sister to talk to you, really I am. But, like another poster said, maybe God did not open the right door for you yet. He closes one door and opens another and maybe you just have not found the right door yet..but if you put this situation in God's hands I have no doubt that he will lead you to the right person to talk to.

You may need some bereavement counseling to get through this. My church does have a bereavement program and it has proven to be very helpful to those who are hurting like yourself.

I remember a story a priest told us once (at a Lenten retreat) about a young man who came to see a priest because he was hurting and just wanted someone to listen to him. The priest said he did not have time right then, but to go to the rectory, make an appointment, and he would be glad to talk with him at another time. The young man never did go to the rectory. He drove his car into a tree and killed himself.

I never forgot that story and the priest told us never to forget it and no matter how busy we are, if someone comes to us in need of an ear...stop whatever you are doing and listen...you may be saving someone's life. We don't have to listen forever and we don't have to become a psychologist for that person, but a few minutes of our time can make a difference in a person's life. May all take the time to listen...

BTW, Mother Teresa didn't stop and ask a person lying on the street..are you disturbed? If so, don't bother me. She didn't ask, she just did. We all can't be Mother Teresa but we can do our part, however small that part might be.

ml

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 04, 2003.

ML, I know you will now repeat the same unrealistic stories over and over again. "Stop whatever you do and listen, you might save a human life" - sorry, you think this is a realistic way of behaviour for a priest? Are you kidding? Then we are in the business of fools and psychologically sick people up tou our ears! Your sick mind, dear fool, is the most important thing in the world whenever you come to me! You are welcome, dear fool, here are my arms large open... (will save your life). And no you didn't say priests are bad (no, you never used that word) you just wrote lines and lines about their defects. What's the difference? Well, you have some explanation about the subtle nuance I'm sure.This kind of discussions can go for ever. And mother Theresa was not a priest with a parish on his shoulders and yes she took care of so many and yes priests should do the same and no, they cannot do the same but we should do what we can but no we should be like her and priests should have no sleep if there is someone to console... Well, every single priest could show you how unrealistic your proposals are in their practical life. I'm affraid it wouldn't help. By the way, if you lived in a big parish with tens of thousands parishioners you could console every single night a day someone in need of a consolation or even the last rites. How about that? You wouldn't sleep or work just to console the Christ in them? How naive and unrealistic.

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 05, 2003.

Charly,

My stories were not made up...maybe it is hard for you to believe that the 'reality' that there are preists like I mentioned...yes, reality because there are priests who act like that...but, there are thousands more who are holy priests.

Enough on the subject. I am not competing with you on good priests versus the not-so-good...they don't have to answer to me, they have to answer to God.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 05, 2003.

Charly,

MaryLu is a good friend of mine, and I've been posting with her on this forum and another for nearly a year. Her "stories" are real, so please stop trying to downplay them. Your posts are quite uncharitable and can really cause harm to someone you don't even know. You say they are unbelievable, yet you're judging this based on what? A few written words. I will say this as tenderly as possible: You don't know half the story.

I don't want to write this to start an inflamitory debate. I simply would like you to realize that there are REAL people behind these posted "stories". And REAL feelings can be hurt.

I will pray for you.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), March 05, 2003.

Thank you, Jake. I never intended to put priests in a bad light and I think you know that. If Charly did not take what I said out of context, he would know that too.

Charly is very concerned with our priests getting a good-night's sleep, I am concerned with people's souls and their hurting hearts.

The lentent season has begun and may we all prepare for the coming resurrection with deep prayer and sacrifice. May we all pray for vocations to the Holy priesthood, may the numbers of priest coming into the church increase - we need more priests.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), March 05, 2003.

ML, why are you so unrealistic in you approach to priests? Do you think you love souls more than them? Or how could they help the souls if they don't get sleep? How about a priest in a parish with tens of thousands souls? If only 3 of them needed consolation or the last rites in the middle of each night how long do you think the priest could console them so before falling of? I think to give a priest a time to repose is the first sign of love to them, before I even start to pray for them. Just a question of common sense, nothing more complicated than that. I really cannot see why you don't want to accept it. What's the problem?

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 05, 2003.

MaryLu, I agree with you. If I was a priest, I would have made the effort and gone see this person. I'm sure the need for this does not happen everyday.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), March 05, 2003.

Caspian,

What words can console a grieving mother? My heart aches with yours over the loss of your child.

I know the grief of miscarrying a child, just days before Christmas five years ago. What a sorrowful time.

I pray that each day, your Faith becomes stronger, as you contemplate the Blessed Virgin Mary cradling your child as she once cradled the Son of God.

Please know that you have my prayer support. (((hugs, too)))

Charly, If a priest was a mother, he would never have a full night's sleep. (Maybe that's a good argument against married/women priests!)

But seriously, while sleep deprivation is unpleasant, Love gives us the strength to renounce our own fatigue and keep serving.

I have witnessed this same tireless service in many faithful priests in my parish over the years. Thanks be to God! Please don't label the less fortunate as "fools." We are all created in God's image. "Whatsoever you do for the least of these, you do it for Me."

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 05, 2003.

Caspian,

I'm not trained in bereavement counselling, and I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I do know that you can find love, compassion, and understanding on this Catholic forum (for what it is worth.)

I also have no qualifications in giving spiritual direction, but I believe Paul is an ordained deacon, and may be able to answer your concerns. I understand that they are probably very personal and you may not wish to post them on a public forum, but if you cannot find a priest or nun who can give you the time you feel you need, remember, you do have us here at Catholic Top Level.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 07, 2003.

I just thought I'd straighten a few things out by turning to the Catechism. 1551 reads (words in caps are the words italicized in the Catechism)

1551 This priesthood is ministerial. "That office which the Lord committed to the pastors of his people, is in the strict sense of the term a SERVICE." It is entirely related to Christ and to men. It depends entirely on Christ and on his unique priesthood; it has been instituted for the good of men and the communion of the Church. The sacrament of Holy Orders communicates a "sacred power" which is none other than that of Christ. The exercise of this authority must therefore be measured against the model of Christ, who by love made himself the least and the servant of all. "The Lord said clearly that concern for his flock was proof of love for him." --- There you have it. The LORD said CLEARLY that CONCERN for his FLOCK was PROOF of LOVE for Him.

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com)), March 09, 2003.

Anna says if a priest were a mother he would never have a full night's sleep. Well I don't know of any mother who has a family of four thousand people, all of whom she is solely responsible for. That's the case in my parish. Sure, mothers do go through sleepless nights, but that awful period of sleep-deprivation has a definite end to it, as the children grow. Priests are priests forever. They often retire at a ridiculously old age because of the lack of priests in our Church. I know priests who are called out at all hours of the day and night for ridiculous things, priests who are working in many other fields to do the work that Christ asked them to. We may say, well get the laity to do more, allowing the priests to do things only priests can. Well, guess what? The same laity who complain when they don't get a priest at their beck and call at ANY hour of the day or night will not accept laity telling them anything, or hosting meetings etc. The first question invariably asked is...where's the priest? The clergy are not robots, they are already being asked to put in unbelievable hours in their parishes, very often alone. we ought to perhaps be concentrating on supporting them, giving them some consideration and praying for more vocations. Whilst I sympathise for anyone who is distraught and looking for some kind of guidance, I also feel that perhaps we should remember that there are two sides to every story. I've often had to deal with this subject and found that on further investigation all wasn't what it seemed. Our priests are under tremendous pressure, and yet I see many of them going beyond the call of duty because of the compassion and love that they carry within. I also see priests who don't perhaps live up to some people's expectations, and then I remember that ONLY GOD IS PERFECT!

St John Vianney, patron saint of priests, pray for them. St Alphonsus, patron saint for vocations, send us more holy men for the priesthood.

Peace be with you all

-- Sara (sara@yahoo.com), March 09, 2003.

Sara,

I do agree. Most priests are very loyal to the duties of their vocations, and most do tirelessly serve their parishoners morning, noon, and night, God love them!

Emergencies don't only occur during daylight, and most priests will jump out of bed at the ring of the phone, or doorbell, as a late- night call usually means "emergency." (Again, same with mothers, btw!)

The argument here is not about how much sleep a priest gets, doesn't get, or deserves. (That discussion was begun by a couple of other fellows, and their posts after that were subsequently deleted. This thread is not about priests' sleep hours! If folks think this is an issue which needs to be discussed, a new thread should address that topic.)

This thread concerns an individual seeking spiritual direction in dealing with grief after losing a child, and despite what I would call "heroic" attempts, the individual has been unable to find a spiritual director within the Church---(priest, sister, etc.)

This individual didn't phone the rectory in the middle of the night, etc., as some posters tried to equate ridiculous demands being placed upon priests as some sort of comparison to this person's very real spiritual crisis.

I think Caspian deserves our support and sympathy in his/her loss, and not to have this problem disregarded by making side issues on this thread. If my little quip about a mom's lack of sleep was the cause of this whole digression, I truly apologize.

Sara, I hope the tone of this response doesn't sound snotty...I'm really in agreement with you.

I am just hoping to keep this thread open to anyone who might be able to offer Caspian some good Catholic spiritual direction, before he/she loses his/her Faith. I hope you understand my intention.

Pax Christi.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 09, 2003.

Anna Yes, I understand your answer perfectly, and didn't take it at all as snotty. I don't doubt your sincerity in the least, having read many of your responses on the forum. Although I've not written all that many posts myself, I've been following the threads for a while. I see that many people on this thread have made sensible suggestions to Caspian regarding spiritual guidance, hopefully she will obtain this and receive the comfort she is seeking. Incidentally, I'm a mother also and so could understand the mother analogy too :-)

Mary, our Mother, the Lord is with you.....guide us, protect us in all that we do.

St Gerard Majella, pray for all mothers.

Peace be with you

-- Sara (sara@yahoo.com), March 09, 2003.

Caspian, could there be something you’re leaving out or not telling us? Could your grief be clouding your perception of how you’ve been treated by the Church? With all due respect, I doubt some of the facts you’ve given us, although I sincerely feel you probably believe them to be as you’ve described.

I simply cannot understand how a Catholic priest could cut off confessions after 15 minutes simply because the time allotted for confessions had expired. This is unheard of. While he may schedule confession for fifteen minutes, based on past traffic patterns, no priest would end confession with people still waiting to see him simply because the 15-minute time limit had expired. Also, if you are unable to visit a rectory to secure an appointment for counselling, how do you plan to attend the actual sessions themselves? It is hard to fathom how, when you tried to contact 12 catholic priests in various ways, directly and indirectly, and were unsuccessful each and every time in obtaining the help you sought; that after calling four protestant pastors, you received satisfaction with every one of them. Intended or not, there is an implication here that Catholic clergy are uncaring and/or too busy to care for their flock, while Protestant clergy are tending to the needs of their faithful. After finding one Protestant pastor who was willing to help you with your problem, why did you phone 3 more? Are you more concerned about proving a point than obtaining grief counselling? Have you experienced a problem with the Church in the past that is bothering you that you wish to expose in addition to seeking out the counselling you desire? The generalization made here, intended or not, is grossly unfair and not very believable as presented. I can tell you I know many priests that, were I to lose one of my children, they would be contacting me to see if they could help no matter how busy they were, before I could even think of seeking out their assistance. Most priests I know are fine priests dedicated to their vocation and ever-willing to help. There are very few priests or deacons I know who avoid calls. I could make twenty calls for assistance and receive 19 appointments from the priests I know. Forgive me for doubting the completeness or the accuracy of your story but we get many people coming to this forum trying to portray the Church and its members in a less than favourable light for all sorts of different reasons.

Caspian, in seeking out help, everyone here are quite right in suggesting that you begin by praying. Pray that God will send you the help you need. Visit Him in the Blessed Sacrament. Attend Mass more frequently than you have been. You have to get closer to God in this time of need. When Our Blessed Mother lost her child at the Cross, she turned to God and what happened? God sent her the help and support she needed in the form of the apostles. He comforted her and exalted her for the suffering she offered up for others; and, he will comfort and exalt you as well for having turned to Him in faith. Caspian, God will not abandon you. He will send you the help you need. I suggest you re-visit your parish priest one more time, in person, and ask for an appointment to see him about the help you desire. If you are unsuccessful, visit the Bishop’s office (or telephone his office if not in your proximity) seeking out their assistance. Explain to them what you have explained to us, that you have been unable to get anywhere. I am sure something will be done to help you.

Failing all of the above if everything you have told us is accurate and complete, feel free to email me and after providing you with details of myself along with the necessary personal and Church references, I will to secure an appointment for you to talk with a priest or deacon in your area.

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), March 10, 2003.

Ed,

I have no reason to embellish the truth, but doubt if you must.

There has been much talk in this thread about "emergencies" and priests getting calls in the wee hours of the morning. This is not, and was not my point. My reaching out for spiritual counseling was not presented as an emergency. But therein lies the paradox. If I say "I did not present my situation as an emergency," then people say "Well, you should have because then the priest may have given you his time." And if I would have said "I did present my situation as imperative," then people say "Well, priests can't handle every emergency that comes along." So I suppose there is no correct way that will please everyone here.

Also, my judgment is not clouded in grief to the point that I am not able to distinguish truth from fiction. I know what I experienced and I know I am not unique in my endeavor to seek council and find none available. I have only sought a priest out twice in my life before this. Once, for my father's last rites and when my husband wanted to convert to Catholicism. Even in those cases, it wasn't a simple thing to accomplish.

I invite you - or anyone - to contact my diocese center and see how far you get. If you get caught in the cycle of voicemails, run- arounds, and referrals, you'll see that my case is NOT unique.

Here is the number: 615-383-6393

All the best, Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com), March 10, 2003.

Hey Caspian That's my Area Code!

My priest at St. John Vianney Parish in Gallatin is very available, he is overworked too. Feel free to call him (615)452-2977 his name is Fr. Choby, I know him well and see him every day of the week.

I am sorry about your frustrations. Do you participate in any Church groups like a bible study group? We have one and it is a great spiritual help for myself.

In an area of the country dominated by Baptists and Methodists it is tempting to hop religions but I have to agree with what someone else posted, that would be "religious promiscuity". I spend many hours discerning the Protestant positions (and I am slow reader) and always come up with being glad I am Catholic, despite going to bed many times in a quandry. Reading the writings of the Early Church Fathers or watching Scott Hahn videos helps. A parishoner in our bible study (who is also surgeon) at our Church is knowledgeable in apologetics and that has helped me a lot. Another member of our bible study is a laicized priest, he's a good support. A good book to read is OSV press "Separated Bretheren". Another is "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" by Karl Keating and he supports a web site www.catholic.com called Catholic Answers.

Let me tell you, I moved here from Michigan 3 years ago and got sober from alcohol abuse 4 years ago. If anyone is unstable it is me and I have managed to cling to my Catholic faith in the face of MANY temptations to hop faiths. Apologetics study and Catholic support group participation is essential if you live in our neck of the woods. We are greatly understaffed and it will get worse, I think the average age of priests in our diocese is 55. Our number of new vocations is down greatly which tells you something about our diocese NOT about the Catholic faith. In dioceses that cling to the teachings of the pope and magisterium there are many vocations.

Don't give up, keep the faith!

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 10, 2003.

Mike!

Praise the Lord...you're in my area! This helps because when I say I'm from Smyrna, you may know how isolated this section outside Nashville is. My parish is St. Luke's. They are the only Parish in our city of 100,000, have 2 priests and a deacon, I think 800 registered families but near 1200 attending each week. They are the parish that only offers 15 minutes for Confession, once per week.

I've heard of your priest, at least I think it was him. If my memory serves me well, he is "tell it like it is"...which I LOVE. Isn't he Franciscan? I know many of the Franciscans had to meet for a retreat and/or seminar a few weeks back. Your church is on the complete other side of town from me...about a 45 minute drive.

About Scott Hahn. How much do I love that man? He was who I looked to (with his ewtn audio files) to help me explain Catholicism to my husband. My husband has been converted for almost 2 years now and looooves apologetics. He works at the Bridgestone/Firestone plant in Lavergne and always brings a few apologetic magazines or printouts to put in the breakroom :)for the parousal of others.

I'm a "yankee" also and it was a rude awakening when I came to the South. This may sound naive, but I didn't know until I was 26 (I'm 33 now) that anyone disliked Catholics. Really. I was raised in NYC and near Chicago, where almost everyone was either Catholic or Jewish. So, it's been a "journey" here...to say the least.

Although one or two people on this thread have been "less than objective" about the truth of what I went through, it has helped to realize that I must be more patient. I do love my Church.

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com), March 12, 2003.

Looks like God is answering your prayers, Caspian!

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 12, 2003.

Sara and Ed, nice to meet you! I really like priests and I see how EASY it is for MANY people to get on their back and give them unjust labels. There is a reason to everything, Ed. To me not even a dozen of bad priests would take away the good I got from my friendship with them. And surely I would not think about changing my religion because this and that priest didn't give me his time when I asked. Christ too wanted to be alone when everyone was bringing their sick people to him. I think I understand him better seeing our priests.

-- Charly (charly7moe@aol.com), March 12, 2003.

Caspian,

Greetings. Love is patient love is kind... how I forget that too. I am not surprised about your notion of other people's attitudes towards Catholics when you were younger. In moving here, my naiveness was that I didn't think I would miss having so many Catholics around like I used to have... but I do. I'm from around Detroit, it's mostly Catholic there. I don't really feel threatened here, it's just a bit more of a lonely feeling (being outnumbered and surrounded by so many heretics). Glad to hear about your husband evangelizing. We need to be active or we will be swallowed up by these renegades. Here's some more encouragement to be Catholic:

QUOTE

(from catholic encyclopedia) It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of the testimony which the Ignatian letters offer to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. The martyred Bishop of Antioch constitutes a most important link between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves...

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

CHAPTER VI.--HAVE RESPECT TO THE BISHOP AS TO CHRIST HIMSELF.

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

UNQUOTE

Also you might like to know St. Ignatious's letters to Ephesus, Magnesia, and Tralles were addressed from Smyrna!

So one of our most important documents comes from your home town almost (from the city in Asia Minor which your town was named after according to www.epodunk.com)

To you post...I can see how you would feel isolated compared to NYC or Chicago but you are not too far from downtown. It's only 30 minute to downtown for me but I stay out here in the burbs, a size of town much like your own. I suggest we both try to hang around with people from our respective parishes as much as possible. That's what I do and need to keep doing. I may move back up to the cold north some day, who knows, but I'm single and my siblings live there so that makes that one easier for me.

About priests. Our priest will talk in the confessional with us as long as we like. He also makes appointments. He used to be a seminary professor at the Pontifical College Josephinum in Columbus, Ohio so he is knowledgeable in our faith, that's very important in a confessor. I will ask him, after daily mass, if he has any suggestions for a good priest to visit in the Smyrna area. Oh..he's not a religious but he was raised by good southern Dominican nuns. Have you been to the Dominican convent for a visit?

Sincerely

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 12, 2003.

"Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself."

I have a real problem with this, does anyone else ? I would never look upon any human being on this Earth today as I would Christ.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 12, 2003.

I would never look upon another human being as Christ's equal, for He has no equal and never could. Our Holy Father in Rome would be the first to agree with that. But I do take seriously Christ's words to the first bishops of His Church - "he who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me". That is good reason to revere their divinely apointed office, even when some individual bishops may engage in behaviors that do not evoke reverence, and are a disgrace to the office.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 12, 2003.

correction to post above from Mike H

I misspoke regarding Protestant heretics. Only some Protestants are heretics however most of them are not so (even though they like to be considered heretics). This is because a heretic has to be one who professes the Catholic faith and is baptized and then rejects some of her doctrine. Since most Protestants never professed the Catholic faith to begin with they are not heretics, they merely labor under ignorance.

Thank You

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 12, 2003.

Oliver

"I would never look upon any human being on this Earth today as I would Christ."

I agree with Paul's reply above. I add this.

You can't look at Christ (except in the Eucharist). Thus Christ gives us his represetative or stand in. Jesus the Christ was humble enough to become sin and die as a human does so I'm sure he's humble enough to speak for our benefit with the help of his bishop whom he appointed through his apostles.

Sincerely

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 12, 2003.

As Christians, we are obliged to see Christ in others. Obviously no one is Christ’s equal; but, when we look at others, bishops included, we should see the reflection of the living God. “For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator” (Wis. 13:5).

You can look at others and still recognize Christ. We are all made in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26). Mother Theresa when asked why she tirelessly helped others in need replied, “Every time I look into someone’s eyes, I see Jesus.” This is why she cherished every human life. She believed those she encountered in her work reflected her awesome God and therefore demanded dignity, respect and love. This is the essence of Christianity - to love others as you love God and yourself.

Sometimes our attention for the Eucharist is misdirected. The Eucharist isn’t the end. It’s the means to the end as Christians. While we are made in His image, the Eucharist transfigures us into His likeness (Rom. 8:29). When we ingest Christ we fill up with grace and become more like Him. God is love and to become like Christ is to become love itself (1 John 4:8, 16). At this point, at communion, our task has only just begun. After God has revealed Himself to us in the Eucharist and we have been filled with the grace of God, it becomes our calling, our vocation as Christians to go out into the world and practice the love He taught us to have for others. “The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man’s vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation in the image and likeness of God” (CCC 2085).

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), March 13, 2003.

Hi Caspian,

I talked with my priest, Fr. Choby, this morning. He suggested that you could make an appointment with him or with the priest in Hendersonville, Fr. Bevington, at Our Lady Of The Lake parish. Both of these are good priests whom I have sat and talked with several times. Everybody I know likes both of them. And most importantly they have the time for you. Both parishes have two priests to share the overall load.

The priest in Madison at St. Joseph is much too busy. That parish unexpectedly lost a priest about a year ago so they are understaffed. Of those who are located closer to you, my priest didn't have any names to suggest. He said he knew your priest was busy with Spanish masses.

I hope you find someone soon if not already.

God Bless You

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 13, 2003.

Thank you Mike.

My son goes to a Dominican Catholic School - so I am very familiar with their mother house. It is one of the places I called in the beginning.

I will call your Church and see how that turns out, even though I'm a little apprehensive from my previous experience. The priests out here are Fr. Richard and Fr. Luca (the former says the Spanish mass). Both are in their 80's, far past retirement.

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ALSO

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For those of you who have this "either / or" mentality - to say "Well, THAT'S no reason to consider another religion" (paraphrasing) need to realize that for all your talk about "being Christ" to others and "seeing Christ" in others, there's an awful lot of seemed subjectivity attached to those words.

It's as if some of you believe I'm under the impression that priests need to be at my beck and call, when I clearly stated in the first post of this thread that I "sought out" spiritual guidance and did NOT take out any hostility on any priest. I was stating the effect of my personal experience upon my faith.

I still believe this:

QUOTE 1551 This priesthood is ministerial. "That office which the Lord committed to the pastors of his people, is in the strict sense of the term a SERVICE." It is entirely related to Christ and to men. It depends entirely on Christ and on his unique priesthood; it has been instituted for the good of men and the communion of the Church. The sacrament of Holy Orders communicates a "sacred power" which is none other than that of Christ. The exercise of this authority must therefore be measured against the model of Christ, who by love made himself the least and the servant of all. END QUOTE.

It doesn't say anything in there about priests "taking a break" in their Vocation. My vocation is that of Marriage - and I don't get a divorce "every once in a while" because I "need a break."

If you're not up for the Vocation of your calling, then don't answer it. For with it comes great responsibility.

Sorry, I'm just somewhat agitated by the assumptions stated in the last few posts, with few exceptions.

Caspian

-- Caspian (caspianz@yahoo.com), March 16, 2003.

Caspian,

I am so saddened to learn of the problems you have been having seeking help. It sounds like others are trying to help get you connected with a caring priest. I pray that works for you.

I have another suggestion. If you have not already done so, I would also like to suggest that you try contacting "www.compassionatefriends.org". This is the largest support network in the country dealing with grief connected with the loss of a child. The may have a chapter in your area. You may find other interesting connections at "www.counselingforloss.com"

I have never lost a child, so I cannot begin to suggest that I know your pain, but I do know a lot about loss through deaths of other relatives and, in particular, my husband. It took me 3 years to find a grief support group that fit my needs. It was well worth the effort and the wait!

Please don't give up on our wonderful Church. Unfortunately, our time and God's time do not always coincide. I can tell you feel you have already given much effort and been very patient. Just don't give up. Being in contact with others who have walked the path brings much consolation and hope. Whatever you are feeling right now - anger; hurt; frustration; disappointment; or whatever - please tell God exactly how you feel. He will always listen - and understand. He knows you are hurting and He wants to help, but you have to talk to Him about it. And then, unfortunately, you (like me) will have to wait for His answer. I can't tell you it's easy - it isn't! But I can tell you that the pain has made me stronger and I have grown so much in my faith it is unbelievable.

May the peace of Christ be with you. I am praying for you.

-- Carolyn B (cibundy@ameritech.net), March 18, 2003.