The Dialogues among members of the forum has loosened up it appears which to my own mind is a good thing. With the Issue of war being current it would appear at hand and very probable I ask the following:

How do the Catholics and " guests " of this forum feel about all this? Are we looking at a divided world now in which the American mode as helper is being challenged by other religions and societies?

As a Catholic I feel this is not a war based on world risk reality rather a man in the USA is attempting to rectify a global situation that is hyperbole.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 07, 2003

Answers

Hi.

Some view these events as prophecy being fulfilled. It really isn't about anything els except a Holy War. But, don't ask me for details. I've heard the details; I don't understand them. Those who know, equate Hussein with Satan. But, like I've said, I don't know how to interpret Revelations.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 07, 2003.

Hi Jean,

Im always consious of our insignificance in the face of Christ, our feeble minds driven by ego and pride to the point where we know more than The Vicar of Christ. Frank once hit me with a truth when I was ranting away in angry young man mode... theres nothing more boring than a street corner know it all. The forces of cynicism against the forces hope and idealism, I know where the Pope wishes us to be and thats good enough for me. Those who choose in their hearts to remain cynical and unbelieving should remember that God will be watching this test of faith.

heres a song for you Frank about "know it alls"....

dear readers i'm not sure where i'm headed i've gotten lost before i've woke up stone drunk face down in the floor

late afternoon the house is hot i started i jumped up everyone hates a bore everyone hates a drunk

this may be a lit invention professors muddled in their intent to try to rope in followers to float their malcontent as for this reader i'm already spent

late afternoon the house is hot i started i jumped up everyone hates a bore everyone hates a drunk everyone hates a sad professor i hate where i wound up i hate where i wound up

I pray for peace. I pray you are having a blessed lent season my friend and that each of our sacrifices brings us closer to Christ himself. I hope the spirit of renewal and growth is with you and all the readers this upcoming Easter.

Be not afraid

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), March 07, 2003.

What can a war with Iraq accomplish? The terrorists we fear are not citizens, allies or beneficiaries of Iraq. Iraq has no "sleeper cells" of suicidal fanatics stationed in America and Europe, bent on destruction at any cost. The only common trait that our terrorist enemies share with Iraqis is an Arab heritage. Conquering Iraq will only strengthen terrorists with more supporters, and ensure further attacks in the U.S. and England.

We currently have Iraq contained in the most effective manner ever. Hussein knows that his use of any Weapons of Mass Destruction would generate immediate retaliation. Now, increased inspections can methodically eliminate any remaining dangers in Iraq. Yes, this is an expensive way to disarm a country. Compared to war, however, the option is cheap.

As a Catholic, I am always irritated by the church members who say that the Pope has no business spouting foreign policy, and that he is not the final arbiter on what constitutes a just war. This reminds me of 1991, when he spoke out against the war, and was summarily dismissed by many Catholics. I admire his recent attempts to convince the US and Iraqi leaders to seek a peaceful solution.

-- David Cyrus (DavidCyrus@yahoo.com), March 08, 2003.

Yes, Three cheers for the pope!!!
A bright light in a very dark time.
It is nice to see this bent-over, humble, non-weaponed, quiet spoken world leader speaking for the Prince of Peace. He is in excellent company.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), March 09, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, David Cyrus.

I have always been a person who has greatly admired Pope John Paul II as a human being and pastor, loved him as a brother Catholic and my highest earthly spiritual father, believed all that he has taught, and obeyed him whenever he has bound Catholics under some discipline. What some people do not seem to understand is that, despite having that relationship with the pope, I do have the right to disagree with an opinion he may have expressed on the impending "Battle of Iraq."

You wrote: "As a Catholic, I am always irritated by the church members who say that the Pope has no business spouting foreign policy, and that he is not the final arbiter on what constitutes a just war."

I am not such a "church member who say[s] that the Pope has no business spouting foreign policy". I say that he is entitled -- nay, not just entitled, but welcome and even duty-bound -- to express his opinion, offer suggestions, give guidance, etc. -- based on his application of the facts (to the extent he knows them) to Catholic moral principles.

I also agree with you that the pope is also "the final arbiter on what constitutes a just war."
However -- and please note the important distinction -- the pope is not the final arbiter of whether or not a specific, contemplated conflict meets the criteria of a just war.
I invite you to join me in believing what the new Catechism teaches on this subject:
"2309 ... These [just-named criteria] are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'just war' doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."
The people referred to in the final sentence are the government leaders (including the president of the U.S.) -- the only people with access to all the facts, some of which may have to be kept secret -- not the religious leaders.

David C, you also wrote: "I admire [the pope's] recent attempts to convince the U.S. and Iraqi leaders to seek a peaceful solution."
I do too. Like the president, I pray for peace -- a just peace that is in accord with God's will.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 09, 2003.

"2309 ... These [just-named criteria] are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'just war' doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."

Hi John could you please explain to me what limits the church puts on this authority. I find it difficult to believe this is all the church teaches on this issue, there must be limits placed on those who have this responsibilty. Im sure Hitler believed he was operating for a moral good for the people of Germany.

Clearly there are huge problems if the Church hands over moral responsibilty to secular governments ill equpied to rule on such issues... its crazy they can do anying for "the common good".

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), March 09, 2003.

Also I often read here that the US is a Christian country. Can anyone verify the accuracy of these comments from some of your most important founding fathers....

the United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine" -- George Washington

"it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no gods. it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" and "i do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature" -- Thomas Jefferson

"i do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that i know of. my own mind is my own church" -- Thomas Paine

"the Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. i could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma" -- Abraham Lincoln

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), March 09, 2003.

[Topping for later reply. Sorry for delay, Kiwi.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), March 11, 2003.

the Pope is a world class theologian with access to the world's best theological brains and library; he is unquestionably one of the world most poius men; he commands the world's finest diplomatic service and is, therefore, more abreast of the facts than any world secular leader; he is also the former victim of Communism and the cheif architect of its destruction.

On the other hand, JF Gecik,... well,...., never heard of him -- who exactly is he??? Of course, he says: "despite having that [SIC] relationship with the pope, I do have the right to disagree with an opinion he may have expressed on the impending "Battle of Iraq."

the arrogance of it.

-- Dialogue (risk.reality@maninthe.USA), March 11, 2003.

Jean, welcome back to the forum. You've returned at what I can only describe as troubling time, but it's good to see you back.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 11, 2003.

Oliver - Thank you so much. Yes the forum is going through a bumpy time once again. Let us hope gentleness and understanding will win the day.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), March 12, 2003.