Listening to International Radio News last evening a most interesting interview by the head of an Oklahoma Evengelical Group is intending to send missionaries to postwar Irag.

The intent of the group is to " evengelise " by doing good things such as food and medical aide to the common population.

Ques: Is this a good thing or just a good intention as it may or may not stir further hatred towards the Western countries?

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), April 05, 2003

Answers

Jean,

My opinion this is a great deed. Anytime you are feeding the hungry or helping the sick you have to know in your heart that is what God wants to be done.

Not to mention converting Muslims to Catholicism. We can't worry about other peoples hatred. The holy and good "straight shooters" are always hated by someone. You can't keep everyone happy.

God bless the hungry people in this world.

-- David (David@excite.com), April 05, 2003.

David - I agree! Doing good things in His name should not be squashed simply because some may criticize or hate because of it...

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are you when men reproach you, and persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you, for my sake.

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 05, 2003.

Bob & David - Thank you so much for the reply. To date there is no mention of Catholic Missionary efforts as yet. This is a private group out of Oklahoma - privately founded and managed by Southern Baptists.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), April 06, 2003.

Jean - out of curiosity, do your feelings differ whether this is a Catholic ministry or Baptist out of curiosity?

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 06, 2003.

I do not care if it is a Catholic org. or not. I do not think the Catholics will become involved though as there will not be a financial return on monies expended.

My question is will this add to the fireball of hatred and misunderstandings between the societies.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), April 06, 2003.

Good questions, and I can't say that I'm honestly too well versed in how Catholic charities operate. My reflex response was to refute your implied ROI premise, but perhaps there is indeed a business aspect to how they (and other charities) operate. I'd like to believe charities operate in the true sense of the word, namely in a charitable manner. As for the rift between the Muslim and Christian cultures, clearly increased education, understanding and charitable acts of good will can go along way toward closing the admitted gap...

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 07, 2003.

yikes.

so the options are:

a) the Iraqis get to meet God via the medium of some do-it-yourself (DIY) Christian faith that, frankly, makes it up as it sees fit -- as all Protestants do in some way or another;

OR

b) it gets evangelised by the Catholic Church, God's Church established by God, and eternally watched over by God and protected from any deviation from God's word by God, having survived for 2,000 years, a year for every year since Jesus died for us, the sole repository of the faith.

well, as much as i like the idea of us all getting on, it seems to me that, yes, there is a real shortcoming here: it is trite to say that at least they are Christian. in fact, how do we know that -- some of these people believe that the Pope is the Anti-Christ; many of them are denominations founded by fornicators; and, in general, they make the rules up as the go along.

you cannot possibly compare conversion into the Catholic faith with conversion by some self-serving "preacher"; or, assuming the best, a preacher that "mis-preaches" the Truth.

as for the "profit" aspect, just how many "preachers" would survive were they not pulling in some sort of ROI that beat the ROI available at the local factory. this is abject, groundless speculation. and their "congregations" are only as good as the puff of their preacher.

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 07, 2003.

i have been unable to find anything on the web concerning this "Oklahoma Evengelical Group" that is going out to Iraq. it seems unlikely, though, that they are Catholic. the Pope has gone out of his way to make clear that the War is not a Crusade (and President Bush has also held out this opinion). for the Church to permit overt Catholic evangelisation would be contradictory.

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 08, 2003.

Interesting questions. I was just thinking about the same thing this week. The Catholic church already is in Iraq and I am sure the parishes there will do their part.

I know if a terrific preacher in Atlanta (Michael Youssef) who is from Egypt, and came to America because of tremendous persecution. He is a phenomenal preacher whose broadcast is being heard in Iraq. For that, I am glad.

May Christ's name be exalted in Iraq. Interestingly, I heard on the news last night that Teriq Aziz is Christian -- Say what? Yes, that's what they said, and that his wife attends a church not far from the bombing site yesterday. I am still trying to digest this bit of information. I can't imagine a Christian working directly under Saddam.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 08, 2003.

Aziz is Chaldean Christian.

"The Chaldeans are descended from the Nestorians, named after Nestorius, a 5th century monk from Antioch who was condemned for heresy for claiming that the Incarnate Christ was not God and man simultaneously but separate persons, one human and one divine."

"The Nestorian Church survived, with its headquarters in Baghdad from the 8th century. It was later reconciled with Rome and is in communion with the Pope."

"Roman Catholic missionaries did somehow reach Mesopotamia and Persia in the thirteenth century. These missionaries labored among the Nestorian Church remnant to restore doctrinal harmony. Finally, by 1553, facing new problems in Europe with the Protestants, the Latin Church gained new strength in the region by reconciling to itself some Nestorians. Thus was the Chaldean Catholic Church formed."

"There are almost a million Christians in Iraq, 70 per cent of them Chaldeans, in a predominantly Muslim population of 23 million. According to Raphael Bidawid, Patriarch of Babylonia of the Chaldees, Iraqi Christians enjoy the protection of Saddam Hussein."

"In the 35 years since Hussein brought the Ba'ath Party into power, he has denied the separate religious identity of Iraqi Christians in an effort to construct a secular Arab nationalist state. He has tried to stamp out their Syriac language by banning it from many of the schools. In an effort to boost his Islamic credibility, Hussein has forced Christians to learn the Koran. And he has often lumped them in the same ethnic category as the Kurds, knowing the groups don't get along because of disputed land holdings in oil-rich northern Iraq."

"With a history of world isolation, Iraqi Christians don't maintain much tolerance for traitors. So there's a reason the highest-ranking Christian in the anti-Hussein Iraqi National Congress calls Aziz the most hated man among Iraq's beleaguered Christians."

of course, it is often said that Hitler and a number of his henchmen, such as Goebbels, were Catholic. so we have seen such interlopers before.

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 08, 2003.

Thank you, Ian. I have been puzzling over that all morning.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 08, 2003.

MORE AZIZ TRIVIA

"Aziz was born in 1936 in the northern city of Mosul to a family of little means. He was originally named Michael Yuhanna but changed his name to Tariq Aziz -- which means "glorious past" -- to be more acceptable with the Muslim majority."

"Some attribute his survival to his lack of a power base in Iraq, which means he presents no threat to President Saddam."

he sounds like a rotten little chameleon to me.

-- Ian (ib@vertigfo.com), April 08, 2003.

Yeah, Ian, he's kind of creepy alright!

gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), April 08, 2003.

Ian, I find your condescension toward Protestants to be unsettling. I agree with you that the Catholic Church is the 'true' church and I am certainly proud to be Catholic. But fact of the matter is that many of our Protestant brethren are exceptional people, 'God-fearing' and good people who love the Lord - I know because I have friends that fit this description! Our Holy Father does not criticize or stand in judgment of non-Catholics - I think we should follow his example here.

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 08, 2003.

Bob M,

whether or not you agree with what i say, in and of itself it is of no consequence that these views are condescending (and i deny that they are). surely what matters is compliance with the Church's teaching.

to that end, in our Catechism, i find the certain specific requirements that apply in our dealings with protestants:

first, our Church recognises the presence in protestantism of some Truth - but not the fullness of Truth as is to be found only in the Catholic Church. IOW, our Church, and not me, recognises that a certain portion of all protestant churchs' teachings are lies. that's our Church speaking, not me.

second, our Church imposes a duty of evangelisation upon us. any evangelisation of protestants that occurs without open discussion of the failings of the protestants' various man-made beliefs would seem difficult and pointless.

we are also under duties with respect to ecumenism. the requirements to evangelise and to ecumenise both recognise the need to bring protestants back on track. they are more or less the same thing.

protestantism is a cancer that afflicts protestants. it denies them the full Truth. it places obstacles in the way of salvation that only our Church can remove. please bear in mind that this comment addresses protestantism and not protestants; but there are many protestants of able and sound mind and body who know what our Church teaches but who cling to their DIY religions nevertheless.

i am also able to substantiate the specific points made above.

let's consider the Anglican Church, the largest protestant denomination as i understand it, with about 70 million adherents. many of these are in fact African, in consequence of Anglican evangelisation, the original subject of this thread.

the Church of England was founded by Henry VIII of England when he wanted to conduct marital (extra-marital) affairs as he saw fit. in otherwords, the Church of England, the centre-piece of Anglicanism, was founded by a fornicator/adulterer to facilitate fornication/adultery/divorce. he moved away from Rome not even on the basis of a genuine theological difference, but on the basis of an itch in his underpants.

it comes as no surprise, therefore, that the present leader of that Church is a pagan druid (priest) as well as their "Archbishop". and he has admitted to ordaining practising homosexuals as priests. the church's attendances are dwindling, it is selling church buildings to be used as dance-halls or private housing.

IOW, the entire basis of that Church, the world's biggest protestant denomination, is a complete joke, IMHO.

consider next the Bob Jones approach to life. another protestant who is very well known and very popular. i am not going to waste to much time on this one as the fact that he uses God's word to justify racism is sufficient testimony to the moral bankruptcy of his congregation.

in each case, you might conceivably find what you would describe as "good people" amongst these congregations - although i doubt very much that anyone of the Bob Jones school could possibly be so described.

now here are 2 very different churches, but both protestant and both very defective. there are, it is said, over 20,000 protestant denominations in the world today. many of these will be one-man- bands. and the scope for corruption is so present in all of these. one could spend one's entire life auditing each of these for corruption and scandal and you know what -- by the time one had finished, another 20,000 would have sprung up. the only limitation on what these people will preach is their imagination -- Scripture is written in such a way that in the wrong hands it can be construed so as to support some evil notions. this is what Bob Jones is doing.

the Catholic Church was founded by God. it is protected from doctrinal error. some say it has had "bad" priests and bishops and popes; but its message is the authentic message of God. protestantism on the other hand is a hotch-potch of this and that, run by a hotch potch of this and that, and devoted to teaching only the part of the Truth that is found to be personally acceptable to its leaders.

i wonder if the Iraqi's are actually being given anything by protestant evangelisation. our Catechism already recognises salvation for Muslims.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 09, 2003.

Ian, we agree that there are many Protestants that are misguided, etc. The same could be said about members of any religion though. Like you, I believe the Catholic Church to be the true church of Christ. But this doesn't give me license to ridicule or look down my nose upon my Protestant brethren. I would encourage and challenge you to give this some thought. The Holy Father has taught by example to be ecumenical in our thoughts and actions. This is not selling out or compromising our faith...

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 09, 2003.

Ian, from what source were you quoting in your 8 April posting about Christians in Iraq? Also, does anyone have suggestions about websites with further information about Catholic and/or Protestant mission work in Iraq since WWI to present? -Mark

-- Mark (mdcovel@yahoo.com), April 10, 2003.

mark

i performed what i thought to be countless searches on Google but could find nothing that connected with the original post - that is, i could find nothing that detailed Christian missionary work in Iraq; and, in particular, i found nothing on the "Oklahoma Evengelical Group" mentioned above. the original source was from a radio show.

perhaps i am just an inadequate surfer. maybe there is something there.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 10, 2003.

dear Bob M

"ecumenism" is how protestants justify their indifference toward the content of any given faith system, including their own: it amounts to systemic stalemate. But to a Catholic, surely, ecumenism is a method of evangelisation.

if the Emperor stands before me, devoid of the "fullness" of dress (if you see the analogy), how do i respect him? if i lead him to believe that he is fully clothed, then am i his friend or foe? if i tell him the truth, am i not his true friend.

we can spend as much time as we will, in heretical "churches", banging tambourines, waving our hands about and punching the air, pretending that we have never read a history book, screaming "alleluiah" at the drop of a hat, pretending that abortion or divorce or capital punishment (or whatever) is not that important -- but when push comes to shove, i respectfully submit that evangelisation is the basis of ecumenism.

i completely and unequivocally love my protestant brothers - that is a command from God that binds me. and if a protestant lands on my door, covered in blood or whatever - or if a protestant requests my prayer - or if a protestant should sin against me - i will do what i must do to help him out. because God's love is blind. i would, in any event, extend such courtesy to any human being.

but i do not accept that we must idly stand by and watch the protestant cancer spread. the major protestant belief system (the traditional Anglicanism) is farcical. "fundamental" protestants are barely Christian. the bits in between are, well, it is anybody's guess. it is all made-up.

our Pope walks a tightrope that may well lead to the ultimate unification of all faith systems -- within the Holy Catholic Church. i just hope that, as the Holy Father contrives to convert the protestant apostates and others, we do not lose sight of the fact that they deliberately, and in full knowledge in most cases, chose to follow alternate paths toward salvation.

in the end, there is only the One Church.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 10, 2003.

This is a fooloish deed by all means!!

not only do you jeopardize the lives of the ministry but of ALL the American forces and the Iraqi civilians. They do not lash out at individuals they lash out at communities at groups!!!

You above all jeopardize the safty of the christinas that live in Iraq!!

I would atleast consult the Iraqi Christian organizations and see what they feel about this as you will be putting thier lives in danger as well as you own!!

Plus you will jeopardize the peace in Iraq.

Remember Islam has heard of Jesus and known his works for a very long time and in thier original context. Jesus is a prophet to them. You will not only insult thier faith but also thier inmtelligence.

-- Lechem ben HaAri (lechem@usa.net), April 10, 2003.

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/040403_bringing_aid_and_the_bi ble.htm

-- Lechem ben HaAri (lechem@usa.net), April 10, 2003.

THOSE LUCKY IRAQIS!!

'Poised and Ready' The evangelist who called Islam 'wicked' is ready to bring humanitarian aid to Muslims in Iraq. By Deborah Caldwell Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Billy Graham and one of the nation’s most outspoken critics of Islam, said Wednesday he has relief workers "poised and ready" to roll into Iraq to provide for the population’s post-war physical and spiritual needs.

Graham, who has publicly called Islam a “wicked” religion, said the relief agency he runs, Samaritan’s Purse, is in daily contact with U.S. Government agencies in Amman, Jordan, about its plans. The group’s main objective is to help refugees and people who have lost their homes or are sick and hungry as a result of the war, Graham told Beliefnet. “We realize we’re in an Arab country and we just can’t go out and preach,” Graham said in a telephone interview from Samaritan’s Purse headquarters in Boone, N.C.

However, he added, “I believe as we work, God will always give us opportunities to tell others about his Son….We are there to reach out to love them and to save them, and as a Christian I do this in the name of Jesus Christ.”

Graham didn’t seem concerned that the public presence in Iraq of Samaritan’s Purse—which has put out a press release about its activities—could prompt already-skeptical Muslims worldwide to view the war as a crusade against Islam. “We would not go in and participate in something that would embarrass our administration,” he said. But he added, “We don’t work for the U.S. Government, so we don’t get our permission from them.”

Some Muslims were outraged that Graham would be allowed to help with Iraq’s humanitarian effort.

"Franklin Graham obviously thinks it is a war against Islam,” said Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. “This is a guy who gave the invocation at President Bush’s inauguration and believes Islam is a wicked faith. And he's going to go into Iraq in the wake of an invading army and convert people to Christianity? Nothing good is coming of that.”

A spokeswoman for the U.S. Agency for International Development said Wednesday night she could not comment on short notice.

Meanwhile, officials from the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, are also planning a large relief effort in Iraq once the war ends. The International Mission Board has already sent about $200,000 in hunger funds and $50,000 in general relief funds to its workers in Amman, Jordan.

“This is not just a great opportunity to do humanitarian work but to share God's love,” said Sam Porter, state disaster relief director for the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma. “We understand that the individual people of Iraq have done nothing to hurt us. We want to help them to have true freedom in Jesus Christ.”

On Wednesday, Graham was unusually guarded in his comments about Islam, saying only that “when people ask, I let them know I don’t believe in their God. But I respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe.” Two months after September 11, however, he called Islam a “very evil and wicked religion.” Last summer he said Muslims hadn't sufficiently apologized for the terrorist attacks-- and he challenged Muslim leaders to offer to help rebuild Lower Manhattan or compensate the families of victims to show they condemn terrorism.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 11, 2003.

mark,

a poor attempt at answering yr requirement but this site has some information. the specific link below takes you to a piece on the Catholic humanitarian program in Iraq, carried out by Caritas: "No proselytism is done through the program. The people who go to Caritas centers reflect the general population in the country. In Iraq, that means anywhere from 95-97% are Muslim."

truly inspiring stuff.

http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp? pageLoc=/story/124/story_12469_1.html&storyID=12469&boardID=56402

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 11, 2003.

Jmj

Many facts about Christians in Iraq can be found on the Internet. There are two main, ancient Christian groups, the first in union with the pope, the second not yet. The first is the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the second is the Assyrian Church of the East.

About the Chaldeans (copied from a now-defunct Internet site): "Chaldeans Catholics ... [are descended from people who] were converted to Christianity by St. Thomas the Apostle and his disciples Mar Addai and Mar Mari. Later, in the 5th century, they espoused the Nestorian [heresy] until they were reunited with Rome in the 16th century. Pope Eugene IV declared that all converted Nestorians would henceforth be called Chaldeans, referring to past origins, and entitled their religious leader as the 'Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans' who now resides in Baghdad, Iraq. The Patriarch, in union with Rome, is the head of the Chaldean Catholic Church in all its extensions throughout the world.

"In the United States there are four Chaldean parishes in the Detroit Area, four parishes in California and two Chaldean parishes in Chicago. These American-Chaldean parishes have been organized into a diocese entrusted to the care of the most Reverend Mar Ibrahim Ibrahim, who has been appointed by the Pope to oversee this diocese since 1982. The bishop has his administrative center at the 'Our Lady of the Chaldean's Cathedral in Southfield, Michigan. The Chaldeans are strongly attached to their church, not only for their spiritual guidance, but also as the nucleus of their community."

If you want to know lots of details about the Chaldean Catholic Church (from their point of view), the place to go is here.

If you want to know a lot about the Assyrian Church of the East (which, I think, is based in Mosul [northern Iraq] and consists of the descendants of those Nestorians that were not reunited with the pope in the 16th century), the places to go are here and here.

There is a page about Tariq Aziz at the "Iraqi News" site, and it says that he was born into a Chaldean Catholic family. However, there is no way that, assuming he is still alive (which I doubt), he could be considered a practicing Catholic during his tenure in political office. Here is the page on Aziz.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 14, 2003.

Ian, I don't think we are far off actually, but there is a distinct but subtle difference in what we are saying. The essence is this - your comments toward Protestants clearly suggest that they are all wet and have it all wrong. I, on the other hand, suggest that they don't have it all right (in my opinion), but many of them have a lot of the important 'stuff' correct, but clearly not everything.

Your emperor analogy is interesting. Let me advance my own version. Suppose the emperor was naked and it was below freezing. And suppose a Protestant comes across the emperor and gives him under garments, pants, a shirt and a jacket. And now a Catholic comes by, let's say you, and looks at the situation and chastises the Protestant for not giving the emperor socks, shoes, gloves, a hat and scarf. Before you can correct this 'tragic' error of the Protestant, let's suppose another Catholic comes by, me... I see what the Protestant has done and say, great, God bless you for tending to this man. Let me help complete this - and I offer up what's missing. That's how I see our perspectives - you see the negative and criticize what's missing. I see the positives, acknowledge the commonalities, and realize it's not complete.

Quote: "heretical "churches", banging tambourines" Comment: Is there anything positive that comes from Protestant services? I believe so. In fact, I'd argue that many Protestant services do a better job of celebrating than many Catholic masses. That is not a knock on Catholic masses but rather a compliment to many Protestant services and an area where I believe we Catholics could improve (generalization, granted, I realize this varies tremendously from parish to parish).

Quote: "protestants are barely Christian...it is all made up" Comment: case in point for my emperor analogy > you suggest that most of what they say, do and believe is all wet. Fact is that we Catholics share much in common with many Protestant denominations. Truth is that many Protestants sincerely love the Lord and seek to do His will, i.e., imitate Christ, i.e., lead a Christian life.

Quote: "in the end, there is only the One Church" Comment: Amen, my brother from a different mother, we agree, amen!!!

Bob M

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.

Minor clarification to my comment re: Protestant celebrating - this is specifically in reference to the song worship or music liturgy.

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.

Bob M

my priest would certainly agree with you on the music. he is a keen guitarist, singer and songwriter. he was a seminarian just after V- 2, so i think they allowed him to play there. Daniel O'Donnell has recorded one of his songs!!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 16, 2003.

Ian - have you ever heard of Renee Bondi? She is a music artist, is Catholic, and has put out several CD's. She is from SoCal (as am I) and I have had the fortune to meet her on a couple of occassions. Terrific music in case you've never heard of her!

-- Bob M (itsallgood777@hotmail.com), April 21, 2003.