What has V2 and that title have in common? If any of you have seen the movie or play, "The Producers", you know that a swindler wanting to turn out a Broadway flop, turns out a hit show.

Was the reverse the result of V2. The "actors" of V2 had it's good guys, villains and wounded innocents.

Some still see it as a "hit show" others as a dismal flop.

Most when asked about Vatican 2 say "Is that another one of those new cars? Maybe at that, they are the ones who are happiest.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003

Answers

Ed, the guy obsessed with saving God's Church from the OUTSIDE.

The only harm V2 has brought to the Church is abuse from Liberals, and traditionalists who cannot handle ritualistic change, and became schismatic.

True abuse is by people like Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, and those who wish to be associated with him:

"In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law."

Above from Ecclesia Dei, which you can read at the Vatican website. All Catholics should read that letter.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Gordon, thank you for posting the lrad. Interesting, but especially number 5."To whom Christ entrusted"...Why did John Paul betray this trust? Why, why, why? He inherited Gold and gave us dross. Why?

Gordon, I am hard on V2 and the aftermath. It is not pleasant work, I assure you.

I cannot be like the Neo-Catholics, who keep saying "My pastor is not like this" Remember Gordon, this is the universal church, not the corner protestant church. How can you folks say that yes it happens but we are not touched by it.

Apparently the Traditionalists feel more for their fellow Catholics, than thr N.O. caatholics do. You don't seem to mind these folks going to hell as long as the "teflon pope" is ok. God bless

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

How does one debate with someone who constantly spouts half-truths, and out right lies?

Ed, I'm not a liberal. I reject the liberals as much as you do, and I also reject schismatics like yourself, who are more concerned with old rituals, then you are with obeying the Pope.

By your support of SSPX, you are "grave offense to God"!

You can't stand the current Pope, because he excommunicated your Pope: Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre!

Yes, lets bring back the old Mass, and everyone will flock to it, as they are flocking to the half attended traditional Masses that I have been to. Such saving grace! The old Mass is so incredible, that you have people demanding it, and of course anyone who attends such a Mass, is rightaway a better human being.

Never mind the teachings of the faith, all we need is old rituals to be saved!

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Gordon, those half attended tridentine masses were indults. Bet you never were near an sspx. They are opening new schools not closing them as in N.O. The priests are young not old men from pre Vat 2. Your new priests are all in Africa etc. Where are the guys from the northern hemisphere? Africa is a bit far to go even for a good NO. mass. Gordon write to your bishop and ask his help in stopping those Clowns and stand up comics. I doubt that you will have much success.Meanwhile the people attending them are losing the faith, or they would not be going there in the first place.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

There's plenty of happy young men in the Legionaries and Oblates. Ditto for those in the Missionaries of Charity and Opus Dei...

Let's not fall into the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of thinking that all hell broke loose after the Council, because of the Council...other forces were at work: Vietnam war, rise of sexual revolution, theologians who carried water for moral relativism - in the 1950's! Communism rampant around the world - a new generation of religious and diocesan priests taught to be administrators rather than missionaries... in short, even without the Council, the Church was in crisis.

Or what do you make of the tragedy of Western Civilization from 1560 to the 1950? The Church lost England, Germany, and later France and Spain... the Jesuits were disbanded and the cultural elites became anti-Christian Masons... the nation-state arose and wiped out the Church, Catholics were persecuted everywhere during the Napoleonic and subsequent wars - Mexico persecuted the Church until 2000! And all this was happening DESPITE the Tridentine Mass and all the trappings which many of you somehow confuse with the essence of our Faith!

-- joe (joestong@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Yeah, guys like me. (Losing the faith?) ''[They] are losing the faith, or they would not be going there in the first place.''
Gee, Ed. I'm 65 years old. All that time! I didn't know what I was doing. Will you give me absolution? I don't trust anybody else.

DON'T DARE, ''--cannot be like the Catholics, who keep saying "My pastor is not like this-- Remember (Gordon) this is the universal Church, not the corner protestant church. How can you folks say that yes it happens but we are not touched by it?''

Ughhh, that evil protestant church, CORNER one; again! Gad! Ed, If we're the Universal Church, not the c.p.c. --Why have you tossed it? Why leave it for the marble steps and Latin?

Is there by chance a history of insanity in your family?

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.

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-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.

Excellent points Joe, but Ed's not interested in anything that disproves his conspiracy theory on V2. His whole faith depends on that conspiracy.

You're right Ed, the traditional Church is growing, in the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter, but those guys are not good enough for you Lefebvrists!

SSPX after 20 years is still a tiny organization, that is struggling to pull Catholics away from the faith, by the idiotic claim of being the "True Church". Yeah, they are going to save us all anyday now!

If Archbishop Lefebvre is the example we should live by, that is disobediance to the Pope, "in order to save the Church" as what the SSPXers claim, then I make myself a bishop! Yup, that right, I'm a bishop now. Who cares about the Apostolic Succession! Based on that logic alone, how can you support those schismatics?

Tradition without obedience to the Pope is not tradition at all!

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Canvasback? When the name calling starts, I know I'm begining to hit a nerve.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Is this possible? Can popes become heretics? The teachings of the Church, from the beginning to our day, of the Doctors of the Faith and of the popes, say yes! In essence, the matter is simple. Popes, even after assuming office, retain their Free Will, and, as such, are fully capable of sinning, even up to denying the doctrines of the Church, thus becoming heretics. But a heretic is by definition, a non- member of the Church, and offices of the Church can be held only by its members. Therefore, anyone who publicly defects from the faith, automatically and immediately ceases to hold any office he may have held as a Catholic. Of course, the 'election' of a public heretic is invalid.

This is not my judgement. It is the judgement of the Church. HasJP gone over the line? God only knows. He has walked a tightrope on many occasions, that is obvious. Difficult to say but true. Don't believe me ,or the pictures, or even your lying eyes.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Ed, you're Canvasback because you look smart shadow-boxing. On your back when the real test comes. But you talk as if you had the Spirit.

Nothing I've EVER seen you write here was true except in extreme cases, which are rare and easily condemned. You make them out as regular. And the ordinary Novus Ordo Mass is not extreme. It is HOLY.

Same as with the Popes. No pleasing you; not even when the Tridentine Mass is allowed and catholics encouraged to assist. You merely have a fixation. It is a sickness, Sir. It's called fanaticism.

You haven't got the stuff to ''hit a nerve '' debating with us. You count on repetition and sneers. A fine kind of tradition; dumping on the Popes! Shame on you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.

Paul had to dump on Peter,Catherine had to do some also, Athanasius likewise. There is precedent. Eugene Sir. I am concerned with souls, not personalities. To Neo- Catholics it's protect the pope and to hell with souls, (literally)... Is any man worth even one soul?. even a motorcycle mass... Covered for pedophile bishops...while ignoring the call of Our Blessed Lord to preach the gospel to all nations. Deny that! You Eugene and the Neo's have lost the true faith, and JP is responsible. I pray for this man incessantly, and it is no picnic to do so.

-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Well thank God we have self-appointed "Traditionalists", to rescue Catholic souls from the Pope! I wonder why Jesus didn't think of this and just appoint a "Traditionalist", instead of personal, infallible Vicar with the power of binding and loosing, and sole possession of the Keys to the Kingdom?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 21, 2003.

----Hey! Eddie, Me Boy !

Who has touched a nerve, now? You go from the frying pan into the fire with all this invective. Just goes to show; can't take a punch!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.

Guess I can't Eugene, what we need is a few more clowns, topless babes, and Seinfeld performing the liturgy! Catholicism at it's best. But we are not in schism if we tolerate all that. Just a little bit of sacrilege maybe, just a little. I'm sure the Lord wouldn't mind, just as long as the holder of the keys does not object.

-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

But what of the millions who never apparently formally consented to the Roncallists' schism, but nevertheless mistakenly followed them?

These too are culpable.

They all knew, or ought to have known their faith and their catechism, and they ought to have seen that what the Roncallists were doing, perverting doctrines, the sacraments, traditions and practices of the Church, was wrong and protested, and when protests failed, publicly separated themselves from these heretics, as God commands us to do. So these people have no excuse, and cannot pretend to be still 'Catholic.'

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

> "So these people have no excuse, and cannot pretend to be still 'Catholic.'"

You one to talk, as if you some kind of authority on what it means to be Catholic! You lost all sense of what it means to be Catholic, and you're so hung up on old rituals, that you have lost the faith.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.

Gordon: Old rituals ARE the faith!

-- Ed Richards (loa@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

The hyperbole this guy musters; even his ''church'' might find him offensive.

Seinfeld saying the mass;
Topless babes
and ''tolerated''
Roncalists,
''Holder of the keys''

''these heretics''
''pretend to be still Catholic.

Were you somehow afraid we wouldn't get your drift, Ed? You wonder, after all this, why your ''trad'' tripe is so hard to swallow?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 22, 2003.

Eugene, you've swallowed enough bull in the past 40 years to stock a meatmarket.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Thanks, Ed.

Let me be the judge of that. I know bull when I see it; and you are a slinger of Olympic class. BS, I mean.

Topless babes down at the V2? Sounds motty hard to hide from the news media. If you'd said a priest touched the alatar boys, and shame on him, I would have no answer. But your flights of fancy in the trad camp are a hoot! Looks like you need an honesty checkup. Go see a proctologist, Edmund.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 22, 2003.

Nasty, nasty, Eugene! But I'm glad you're back. It certainly spices up these threads. You're sweet tongue was not at all diminished by your hiatus.

-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Wow! I guess I'm clever sometimes; but more important than clever is correct.

Jake implied a little while ago that here in the actual Church, all the farmers are dropping out; and one of these days the shortage in fruit production would bear out all you guys are saying. Then the Lord comes to throw the branches and fruitless vines into the fire. (Meaning the poor Vatican II Church as it is now.) Is that so?

I have labored on and off today serving the ungrateful in this forum. You & Jake & Regina, mainly. This is coming to work in the harvest for My Lord, Ed. I don't hang with you because you're clever, or to seem clever myself. --I view the words I'm writing you as spiritual works of mercy. It's imperative a Catholic reduce your illusory ''trad'' posturing to the absurd. Show to you the delusions you're so cozy living in. We are One Catholic Church. Not a ''good cop, bad cop'' setup. You & me Regina, Jake et al-- together as One people, worshipping God in One baptism, One Spirit, One Body. If what's wrong with that Body (you feel) --makes you mad, then LABOR for and inside that Body, don't run to another ''trad'' body. An Elitist Body, all supercilious.

I know the Church has weaknesses. but I haven't spurned her and called her heretical. I work to help the members. To promote health and communion between them.

You may laugh. YOU, the feisty, mean-spirited Gene? Yes, I do it all for you. I do it for Jake & Regina -- I give them the straight scoop, no icing, TOUGH LOVE. If you're nice, I offer you a spoonful of sugar, to help the medicine go down. If you act like a punk-- No sugar for you !

But always I say strictly: Honor and obey our Holy Mother Church. Pick up your cross, bear it with a smile. No rebellion, no revolt. You are a soldier of Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 22, 2003.

> "Gordon: Old rituals ARE the faith!"

If that is where you heart is, then maybe so. My heart exists with the Novus Ordo, and has my entire life. I have suffered no harm because of it, and I also cannot be responsible for every liberal abuse in the Church that you try to hang at my door because of Novus Ordo.

A change in liturgy was for the best, and a valid Mass, that you people agree is still valid and still gives great glory to God. Can the older litury provide a greater glory to God? I think it all depends on the hearts of those who attend. Maybe those who attend the traditional Mass are more devout, but then again, we are talking a tiny tiny tiny minority in a huge Church.

God is great, and alive and well in today's Church, even though the faith is rampant with heretics and schismatics. Is this any different then the previous ages? Maybe more so today, as I believe the great apostasy has taken place, but not because of the Novus Ordo Mass.

As you people are fond of reminding others, salvation exists inside the Church, and not outside? I say evangelize the faith to the best of our efforts, and let God decide. Schismatics and heretics have to have an examination of conscience here.

God is great! Give glory to God!

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

Well said Gordon; I admit one thing. You always have been a gentleman in these exchanges, and I appreciate that.

-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.

> "Well said Gordon; I admit one thing. You always have been a gentleman in these exchanges, and I appreciate that."

I appreciate that Ed, even though I think I could be more of a gentlemen, as I am not always happy in how I respond to you. Yes, there is anger in my "voice" to you, and I feel that is not the best way to handle things.

We both have one thing in common, and that we both care a great deal for God's Holy Church.

I do appreciate very much that you never cut me down, and wish you would share the same for the Holy Father, who is a very good man. Can he be a better man? I think we all could.

-- Gordon (gvink@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

Very true Gordon, very true. I also sometimes vent my frustrations on the pope more than necessary. I still disagree with him but I cold be a little more gentle doing it.

-- Ed Richards (lozt@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

[PM: Please ... I am on my knees begging you at this point ... Do this for Our Lord and his brothers and sisters.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.

Thank you for your prayers, Gordon and John. I also pray for both of you, and for the whole group. Maybe that's the best thing we do here, at that. Even for JP2, (especially for JP2}. That's the truth!

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 23, 2003.

Maybe that's the best thing we do here, at that.

Absolutely true. When push comes to shove, the best-laid arguments, the most eloquent rhetoric, the most persuasive commentary... none of it can force anyone to the truth.

If this were the cases, we could all be reasoned into salvation; we could all be pursuaded to be saved.

Something about the nature of assuming this to be possible runs counter to an ingrained truth, and I think we can all sense at least that much. I'm not saying that we should all drop our pursuits or even our contentions about truths, because there is a legitimate charge and responsibility to uphold doctrine and truth in general.

I guess what I'm saying is that we can't demand results from our efforts in this regard. People of good will and honest minds will benefit from the discourse from time to time, but the discourse itself does not provide the basis for conversion of souls.

To think that way would be yet another lapse into thinking that the ways and means of men, in any form at all, can save people... which imho is an intrinsic error when set up against the stark contrast of the gravity of the true condition and general blindness of each individual man.

What we accuse people of we are all guilty of; likewise, what good things we all recommend for others in the mercy of God we also recommend for ourselves.

It's in the Lord's Prayer, stated in almost mathematical precision: forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us... That's a direction ratio: forgive and get forgiven in like manner; forgive not, and be condemned in like manner.

In true business-man fashion: delegate. Recommend to God the case of others as He can do easily what we cannot accomplish.

But stick up for the truth? Sure; we have to. But without prayer and good will, it will not effect any results whatsoever.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), April 24, 2003.

Amen!

-- Ed Richards (lora@yahoo.com), April 24, 2003.