I read an old thread which started with Kathy, from July 2002. This is my contribution.

Cardinal O'Connor had his secretary write a letter to me advising me to seek an annulment when I had sought his intervention to heal my marriage. I retain the letter. I wrote to him hefore his death and confronted him with that fact, after he had written to me saying he would never do such a thing; he never replied. If he is made a saint, the standards are not very high!

The tribunal system is corrupt from top to bottom. Period. The Rota remains the best option for anyone, although it has its bad apples too as I understand.

-- Karl (parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003

Answers

Jmj

Karl, since the late, great Cardinal is not here to defend himself, I will choose to ignore your statement about him.
I will also ignore your allegation about the "tribunal system," since it is made by a "loose cannon," who lacks the means to prove what he has charged.
You have obviously chosen the wrong place to carry on your crusade.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003.

--loose cannon or secure cannon -the subject is not cannons, the subject is not ship of fools vs sound vessel --the subject is the ship's heading -the ship we ALL are upon...

John,

-please tell me of some of your experiences in the tribunals?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), April 24, 2003.

What I described is true. If the truth makes me a loose cannon then so be it.

Cardinal O'Connor was not a great man. Perhaps he did his best but he also did serious wrong, which should be addressed in any authentic review of his life and not simply marginalized because "he is not here to defend himself". The whole of a persons actions should be considered. Good deeds do not coverup for bad deeds, repentance and restitution do. Accountability is lacking for the current crop of "saints" in the Catholic Church.

-- Karl (parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.

I would defend Cardinal O'Connor as a man with a great heart for people. He visited aids patients during the middle of the night at St,Vincents hospital, did great works of charity allowed the tridentine mass more than most other bishops, and was great at the St. Patrick's day parade. He however had his weak spots, due to his kindness.

I remenbr several years before his death, he encouraged a man baptized and raised in the Catholic church, of convert parents, to return to his Jewish

roots and faith, if that was what he wished. It is true that theman was not much of a Catholic, but it nevertheless broke the mother's heart. The father had died and the mother was a very devout Catholic.

It was wrong of the Cardinal to advise anyone to leave the faith, no matter the kindness. He could have a least said nothing. God rest his soul.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

I cannot imagine Cardinal O'Connor refusing to help anyone - especially healing a marriage...As for the Cardinal encouraging a baptized catholic to return to his Jewish faith, perhaps there is more to the story here than we know about - some of the facts are being left out.

I did read a book a few years ago (the title escapes me at the moment), but it was about a Jewish couple who converted to Catholicism during WWII (for obvious reasons)....they came to America, raised their children in the Catholic faith and never told them about their Jewish Heritage - it is a true story....and the son eventually discovered the truth and went to see Cardinal O'Connor...who advised him to return to his Jewish Faith - this young man was in turmoil and 'felt' a strong pull to the Jewish faith before he even discovered that he was Jewish....it would take up too much time to go into all of the details, but if one read the story...one would 'understand' why the Cardinal told him that...

The Cardinal has helped many, many people....a personal friend of mine (a priest) worked for the Cardinal for 20 years...believe me, he was a good man - let us remember, Cardinals are not God...they are human beings just like we are...before he died the Cardinal 'ordered' us to pray for him and I still do every day!

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 25, 2003.

one would 'understand' why the Cardinal told him that...

While I really don't know much of Cardinal O'Connor, and cannot say anything on this matter, I feel the need to comment on the above. MaryLu, I don't think knowing any amount of particulars on the why's and how's the Cardinal saying this [to the young man to join the Jewish faith] could ever help me to 'understand' it. If the man felt a 'pull' it was definitely not from God. God would not 'pull' someone out of His Church to a false religion, especially one that denies His only Begotten Son. As good a man as the Cardinal may have been, this particular advice, if it was indeed given, was definitely error.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.

My feelings about Cardinal O'Connor are my personal feelings based upon my experience with him. Like you I have heard of many good things he did and I would be at fault if I were not to acknowlwdge them. When there is talk, however seminal, about creating an investigation for a case for sainthood for the man or when I hear, as I do frequently, of the many good things he has done I am compelled to say what I personally know as fact.

In addition to what I mentioned before Cardinal O'Connor was informed by me, in writing, of violations of canon law and proper tribunal protocols and to the best of my knowledge did nothing to bring about a just resolution to my complaints. By the way, these were not made when it was obvious he was dying. They were made years before. The man simply would not make the time to address the facts I presented, especially when I sought personal audiences with him, over the coarse of a decade.

The Church, even through his successor, Cardinal Egan, refuses to address the marriage tribunal issues. If the Church refuses to address legitimate complaints they must be called to task. The problem is that there is not sufficient rank and file interest in this issue so justice and numerous families suffer.

Some people would silence any critical analysis of Church practices, which is an injustice. If there is merit to the complaints the Church is compelled, by its own teachings, to act to see that justice is done corporately and on an individual basis. Since the onslaught of the annulment revolution the Church has made little but cosmetic attempts to address the many complaints which have been logged. The point men in these issues are the bishops who are responsible for their canonists actions in the tribunals. By and large they do nothing. Most painfully this includes men such as Cardinal Egan and Bishop Doran of Rockford, who are two men I once admired for their work on the Rota. Since thay have had their own sees they have been, at least publically to my knowledge, very quiet about the many abuses I know they are aware of.

-- Karl (parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), April 26, 2003.

Dear Isabel,

As I said, you 'must' read the story to understand why the Cardinal told this young man to return to his Jewish Heritage....and you would 'understand' if you did.

The man was in turmoil....and the events that led him back to his Jewish roots are too complex to discuss here.

Also, I do not believe that the Jewish religion is a false religion...Jesus was Jewish and the Jewish people believe in God and follow the Old Testatment....They do not believe in Jesus or the New Testament...they believe that Jesus was a prophet....I refuse to judge someone else on their religious beliefs...that is not my job, it is God's job.

There are times when we must be open minded....learn the facts before we judge others....The man did not want to be Catholic any more....his heart and soul were being called to his Jewish Heritage...I am not so sure that God is going to judge him for that...he does not knock the Catholic faith and he tried to go back...he just did not leave the Catholic faith and jump into Judiasm....he 'tried' - he went to the Catholic church, went to confession, prayed about it...and his heart led him to the Jewish faith, the faith of his ancestors....I am not going to judge him for that...let God be God and let God be this man's judge...

Isn't it better to be the best Jew one can be, than a Catholic who does not want to be Catholic???

I am not God...and I will let God do His job....

I have been away from this forum and others like it for a long time...I thought I would come back just to see what is going on...and now I remember why I stayed away for so long...people are still doing the same thing...judging others - - which is not our job to do.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 26, 2003.

Isn't it better to be the best Jew one can be, than a Catholic who does not want to be Catholic???

I honestly can't see how one is any better than the other.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), April 27, 2003.

MaryLu,

I, in no way, am judging this man or the Cardinal. Making a statement of fact about whether if would be right or wrong for the Cardinal to tell this man what he did, is in no way judging what is in someone's heart, or where they may be in the hereafter. I agree, that is not our job, but God's.

By making a statement concerning someone's actions, does not constitute judgement. In fact, if I were present when (if) the Cardinal said this, then in all Christian charity it would be my duty to tell him that was wrong.

God cannot be compromised. And to say to this man that he should go and join his Jewish roots because of a 'pull', is comprosing God and His One True Church. God would never pull anyone from the Church that He wants all to be a part of. The pull he was feeling was from the devil, to get him to deny God and His Church. No amount of fact would ever make me think differently or 'understand' this. In fact, to agree with it would be detrimental to my soul.

When Christ came He instituted a new Church. The One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, to which all must belong in order to be saved. That is dogma. So, if this is the One True Church, then all others are false. The institution of His Church and the new law, made null and void the old law. If it is null and void, it is false. It is not wrong of me to say so.

-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), April 28, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, MaryLu. Welcome back to the forum for a visit (or to stay)!
This has been a "homecoming fortnight," with Eugene Chavez, Theresa Huether, and you all coming back here. (I returned in mid-March, I think.)

MaryLu and Isabel, I have done some reading about the situation involving Cardinal O'Connor and the young man whose parents were converts from Judaism.

MaryLu, your memory was a bit faulty about something, and it resulted in the disagreement you have been having with Isabel, I think. The man is Stephen Dubner, and unfortunately we have only his account of what happened and who said what. It is true that his parents were converts who did not tell their children about their Jewish roots until Stephen was in his twenties.

According to what I have read, though, Stephen then became a practicing Jew on his own, and this resulted in a severe conflict between him and his mother, who wanted him to remain a practicing Catholic.

MaryLu, you wrote: "[T]he son eventually discovered the truth and went to see Cardinal O'Connor ... who advised him to return to his Jewish Faith." If Cardinal O'Connor really had done this, my opinion (like Isabel's) is that it would have been wrong. But the Cardinal did not do that. As I said, Mr. Dubner became began to practice the Jewish faith on his own.

So how did Cardinal O'Connor become involved? The son went to him to ask his help as a peacemaker within the family. The best I can do at interpreting what Mr. Dubner says about their meeting is this ... that Cardinal O'Connor relayed to Mrs. Dubner (the mother) that it was not morally wrong for her son, having judged two religions to the best of his ability, to follow his conscience about turning to one or the other. I think that the Cardinal realized that the son had never accepted the Catholic faith fully and did not consider Jesus to be divine nor the Messiah, so he could not try to force him to pretend to be Catholic when he actually believed in Judaism thoroughly.

Now one can debate whether he or she (or the pope) would have done the same as the Cardinal did, but I especially wanted to make it clear that he did not tell a Catholic to leave Catholicism.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 28, 2003.

Thank you, John, for two things: Your very warm welcome and your coming to the rescue once again - as always. You are absolutely right. My memory was faulty on the facts. I read the book a long time ago.

Take care.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 28, 2003.