I read this great quote today that goes like this: “People don’t really care how much you know… until they know how much you care!” – Anonymous

This quote got me thinking about how a lot of newcomers/non-Catholics/lukewarm Catholics/Fallen away Catholics, etc visiting this forum seem to perceive the Catholic Church as some kind of “mean”, unforgiving “ogre” that’s out to get them and condemn them all to hell if they aren’t perfect. That’s just not true, and of course that kind of unloving, judgmental, unforgiving attitude will drive people away

I mean, isn’t the Good News all about love, forgiveness, and a call to repentance? I wish more people would understand that the Church of the Living God is one of unfathomable LOVE and mercy.

Here’s a quote from St. Theresa of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church,: “Charity gave me the key to my vocation. I understood that if the Church had a body composed of different members, the most necessary and most noble of all could not be lacking to it, and so I understood that the Church had a Heart and that this Heart was BURNING WITH LOVE. I understood it was Love alone that made the Church's members act, that if Love ever became extinct, apostles would not preach the Gospel and martyrs would not shed their blood. I understood that LOVE COMPRISED ALL VOCATIONS, THAT LOVE WAS EVERYTHING, THAT IT EMBRACED ALL TIMES AND PLACES. Then, in the excess of my delirious joy, I cried out: O Jesus, my Love .... my vocation, at last I have found it .... MY VOCATION IS LOVE! ”- Story of a Soul, chapter 9

Gosh, that’s beautiful. So St. Theresa explains that the life-giving power of the Church - it’s Heart - is none other than love. I think we all know this. But don't you think we seem to lose sight of it from time to time? I am inspired to try and cultivate this (sorely lacking) virtue of love/charity within myself as well. And I find that meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary (the second joyful mystery is a good one for fraternal charity) is a big help for me. Also, reading about the lives of the Saints. You can really sense how much “Love” and “oomph” they had for God and their Church when you read their writings. (I feel like a selfish wretch after reading their stuff). These souls attained such a high degree of holiness, and learnt to rejoice in suffering. But I believe it was because they had the God-given grace to understand just how much God and His Holy Church truly loved them - that drove them to such remarkable heights of holiness.

Saint Therese of Lisieux was passionately convinced that God loved her. That the powerful presence of Jesus was at work within His Church. And I think one must be really convinced of this if one wishes to strive towards holiness. St. Therese exclaimed, “My vocation is love!” She lived her whole life for God and had a burning desire to convince others of God’s love.

[continued...]

-- Robert P (robertp234@hotmail.com), April 26, 2003

Answers

Here are some more quotes:

“Do you realize that Jesus is there in the tabernacle expressly for you, for you alone? He burns with the desire to come into your heart.,”

“I understand so well that it is only love which makes us acceptable to God that this love is the only good ambition. Jesus deigned to show me the road that leads to this Divine Furnace, and this road is the surrender of the little child who sleeps without fear in its Father's arms.” - Story of a Soul, chapter 9

-- Saint Therese of Lisieux

It is there in His Eucharist that He says to me: "I thirst, thirst for your love, your sacrifices, your sufferings. I thirst for your happiness, for it was to save you that I came into the world, that I suffered and died on the Cross, and in order to console and strengthen you I left you the Eucharist. So you have there all My life, all My tenderness."

-- Mother Mary of Jesus, foundress of the Sisters of Marie Reparatrice

"I love so much a soul's desire to receive Me, that I hasten to it each time it summons Me by its yearnings,"

- Words of Jesus to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

"It was love that motivated His self-emptying, that led Him to become a little lower than angels, to be subject to parents, to bow His head beneath the Baptist's hands, to endure the weakness of the flesh, and to submit to death even upon the cross,"

- St. Bernard

“My Son so loves those who assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that, if it were necessary He would die for them as many times as they have heard Masses.”

- Our Lady to Her faithful servant Blessed Alain

Whew, talk about love being in the air! Sounds like the Church is pulsating with love, and the Presence of God the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

May our Eternal Father aflame our hearts with His love and draw them into the abode of His Most Compassionate Heart. Let us pray that all may learn what it means to know and love Jesus and His Church. Peace. Sincerely,

Robert

-- Robert P (robertp234@hotmail.com), April 26, 2003.

Well done, God Bless

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), April 27, 2003.

Wonderful post Robert, Amen!

The Lord is Compassion and Love: Slow to anger and rich in mercy!

God bless you

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), April 27, 2003.

>>> Thinking about how a lot of newcomers/non-Catholics/lukewarm Catholics/Fallen away Catholics, etc visiting this forum seem to perceive the Catholic Church as some kind of “mean”, unforgiving “ogre” that’s out to get them and condemn them all to hell if they aren’t perfect. That’s just not true, and of course that kind of unloving, judgmental, unforgiving attitude will drive people away.

>>> I mean, isn’t the Good News all about love, forgiveness, and a call to repentance?

In reply to your statement, changing the mood a little… It is true that God and the Bible teaches love, forgiveness, and a call to repentance, but the people of the Catholic Church (Like most denomination churches in general) is made up of ordinary people like you and me. We are not infallible, and I have experienced situations where people tend to think that they are more worthy of the lord’s grace than others, simply because they have participated in church functions more and look down or avoid any input from the so called seasonal worshiper.

As one of the “fallen away Catholics” contributing to this thread… The people who make up the church’s flock can be critical of newcomers/non-Catholics/lukewarm Catholics/Fallen away Catholics, etc. not the other way around. In a perfect world your statements would be policy “The Lord is Compassion and Love.” Lets work together, but those (from my experience) people present themselves as infallible and criticize seasonal worshipers as not totally Catholic and drive away… And that’s not fair.

What are your thoughts on seasonal churchgoers and church politics? Why do you think seasonal worshipers are disappointed with the church and how can we as ordinary people who worship in church change those politics?

Reply requested.

-- Johnq_Public (John@aol.com), April 29, 2003.

this thread is the thin edge of a protestant wedge.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 29, 2003.

Oh m' gosh Ian, maybe you're right about the whole Protestant wedge thing. Ouch, that wasn't my intention at all.)

Hi John Q,

You said: "We are not infallible, and I have experienced situations where people tend to think that they are more worthy of the lord’s grace than others, simply because they have participated in church functions more and look down or avoid any input from the so called seasonal worshiper."

I agree, John Q. I'm totally with you there. Just because one is Catholic, believes firmly in its teachings, goes to church every sunday (yada, yada), is no guarantee that a person's eternal soul will be saved. Not by a long shot. If other people in your experience think this way, or if you've encountered people who think they are "more worthy" of God's graces than others (which I don't doubt you have encountered such people because I have too)... well I think that such people are a little too full of pride/themselves. Which, of course isn't good. But not all Catholics are like that, of course, either. I recall what the Lord Himself said about how we must all become like little children if we are to be worthy of entering into His kingdom.

"Lets work together, but those (from my experience) people present themselves as infallible and criticize seasonal worshipers as not totally Catholic and drive away… And that’s not fair."

I agree, John Q. Completely. No one is infallible. No one but God, of course. It isn't fair (or Christian) for Catholics (or anyone else) to think that way and to criticize others, judge them, mock them, condemn them, and drive them away. That was partly my point. I believe that Jesus and His Church calls us to love our enemies and forgive those who have done us harm - as Christ Himself has asked us to do. Of course, this is difficult to for all of us mere mortals to put into practice because we indeed are imperfect and are not as charitable towards are neighbors as we should be most of the time. But hey, we're only human, right?

As you mentioned, this is definitely not a perfect world. No doubt this world has lots of hate-filled people in it (unlike the Love of God).

John Q, again, I think your concerns and opinions are valid ones and I do *not* disagree.

“What are your thoughts on seasonal churchgoers and church politics?”

Personally, I do not concern myself with church politics. I honestly don't even know exactly what that term means! I dislike all forms of politics. But here’s what DOES interests me: Living out my Catholic faith in the best way that I possibly can; focusing on the salvation of my soul, praying for the souls of others, the souls in Purgatory, more prayer, (and hey, possibly reconciling with my dear wife if she actually comes back to me!). That's what interests me about Catholicism, why I am a member, and why I sometimes frequent this forum (a little more often because I have some extra free time on my hands lately).

To seek out the Truth and to learn more about how I can better love and serve my God and His Church is really what interests me in my life right now.

“Why do you think seasonal worshipers are disappointed with the church and how can we as ordinary people who worship in church change those politics?”

Good question. Very good question. Deserves a thought-provoking answer. I can’t imagine no one ever not being disappointed about anything anywhere. anyplace, anyhow, can you? I’d like to know why too. Can anyone of you bright, articulate regulars here at this forum take a shot at giving John a compelling, riveting answer to his great question? God bless.

Sincerely

Robert

P.S. Sheesh, I really did mean well by posting that first message. How did this become anything more than just a naive affirmation of how much God and His Church loves us all? I apologize to all if this thread turns out to be fuel for an uncharitable fire.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), April 29, 2003.

Don't let yourself be troubled, Robert P.
Please scroll up and read again what Leon and Sara told you.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 30, 2003.

Dear Robert;

I apologize for the trouble I put you through… I do agree with your statement “The Heart of the Church is Love!” but I felt compelled to answer your question concerning the noticeable attitudes of some people (on both sides of the fence) and about Church.

While I don’t want to dwell on the things that were said, I do want you to know that what I have written are some of the reasons why others are hesitant to join or worship routinely. My comments and examples were meant to be thought provoking and informative, Church politics aside I was surprised by your responses to my answers and you even provided suggestions and possible solutions to this problem. If we could all work together and have the Lord in our hearts anything is possible.

God bless

-- JohnQ_Public (John@aol.com), May 06, 2003.

Robert

"this thread is the thin edge of a protestant wedge"

it seems that i was right -- something that we should all regret. you now think that you are a traditionalist (see other thread).

next week, a Sunni Muslim....after that, well, who knows. the only limit is your own mind. i hope that its in working order. and that you have a great tolerance for intense and unending heat.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2003.

Dear Ian; Why are your comments so hostile? Robert was merely telling readers that “The Heart of the Church is Love!” and goes on to ask why is it that people assume the Church is [some kind of “mean”, unforgiving “ogre” that’s out to get them and condemn them all to hell if they aren’t perfect] kind of place. My comment there after was an explanation of my experiences with the Catholic Church as a seasonal Churchgoer, nothing more… I don’t want to be right or wrong in this thread. I just wanted to contribute more or less reasons why other people are disappointed and/or discouraged from attending Church services. Your comments have created a rift that has cause replies to this thread to be less then enlightening.

The Bible teaches love, forgiveness, and a call to repentance, people are infallible and in these trying times, do make you wonder why Catholics aren’t returning and/or attending Church services routinely. Robert is right! People do lose sight of what is really important and sometimes these forums inform and enlighten true believers and all others equally, so please when replying be a little more informative and a little less argumentative, I can bet that it’ll go along way in keeping this tread active.

God Bless

-- JohnQ_Public (John@aol.com), May 07, 2003.

JohnQ, maybe we are looking at stylistic differences but i doubt it.

Robert relies upon quotes from famous Catholics to argue that we should be "nicer" to apostates; but i say this is the thin end of protestantism. to illustrate, you are in consistent and obstinate breach of the 3rd Commandment, so you say. i can say, (A) "Sure JohnQ, it doesn't matter, let's just be nice to each other"; or (B) I can point out that we have a "deal" with God -- we love Him and He saves us -- and to love Him you MUST obey His Commandments.

i choose the approach (B) because otherwise i am lying to you. and i sense protestantism at work because i see Robert's line ending in some compromise where you can pick 'n' mix the bits of the Catholic faith and discipline that you like. yes God is forgiveness, and repentance can lead to the forgiveness of sins, and so on -- but repentance for sins that you carry on repeating is equivalent to the (again, protestant) notion that, if God really is so "good", He will save us all anyway.

i also feel that you/Robert need to figure out which "love" you are talking about. there is (1) God's love for us, (2) our love for God (compliance with the Commandments), and (3) our love for our neighbour (do no wrong). (1) must be different in nature to (2) because otherwise we are emulating God, something that i do not believe a human being to be capable of; and (2) must be different to (3) because we are to love our neighbour to show our love for God. IMPORTANTLY, when great Catholics talk of their love for God, type (2), let us not confuse that with type (3). so far as i am aware, love of neighbour means doing them no wrong. and i would be doing you wrong right now if did other than encourage you to go to Mass.

finally, my second post reflects Robert's almost immediate conversion from one form of protestantism to another -- see this link http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=00AoQN. maybe these are different Roberts but i don't think so. and his new protestantism looks upon the ecumenical aspects of Vatican 2, and the quasi-protestant influences of certain Dutch and German Catholic bishops and protestant observers at V2, as being the source of much that is "perceived to be wrong" on today's Church. i can see the irony even if you can't.

finally, you should also know that i rely heavily upon the intercession of St Thomas. i am as weak as are many Catholics in my faith, but i do try my best. i get to Mass at least once a week and sometimes more (and i try to pray daily and try to get to confession monthly). you can do it too, if you really love God. i don't know your personal circumstances; but i genuinely and sincerely doubt that lots of sympathy from this forum will get you there any quicker.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 08, 2003.

JohnQ

this one is for you and me:-

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Your Mercy.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 08, 2003.