Let's look behind the glitz of the pope's visit to Spain last weekend to see what the result of Vatican II and its aftermath have been in this once most Catholic of countries.

According to the figures of the State Center of Sociological Research, in 1998 just under 85% of Spaniards said they were Catholic. In 2002 that percentage fell to 80%. Attendance at the Novus Ordo service also declined. In 1998, 23% of Catholics went to the Novus Ordo service on Sunday; last year the level dropped to 18.1%. In the 1996-1997 school year, 75.4% sent their children to Novus Ordo diocesan schools, but in 1999-2000 the level decreased to 70.5%.

Not a pretty picture is it? Pretty much worldwide the statistic is that only about one in six Novus Ordinarians attend the Novus Ordo service regularly. After all the blather about the "vernacular" and "participation," regular attendance at Mass has dropped from four out of five in the 1950s to one out of six in the 2000s.

But what must be terrifying the Novus Ordo establishment is this fact from Spain, which undoubtedly reflects other countries: contributions to the Novus Ordo apparatus went from 45.3% in 1997 to 39.6% in 2000 -- a drop of six percentage points in just three years!

Does the Novus Ordo Church avert to these figures? No. Does the Novus Ordo Church ever wonder where it went wrong? No. Why should it? After all, if its goal is to destroy everything that has heretofore been understood as Catholic, why would the Novus Ordo apparatus think that anything was wrong?

Not mine John.....Traditio.....

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003

Answers

Can you refute this, john and gene?

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

Catholic News Service reports that for the first time in five years, the number of students in U.S. Novus Ordo seminary theologates dropped in 2002-03. The number of high school and college seminarians also declined, as did the number participating in permanent diaconate formation programs. The nation's Catholic lay ecclesial ministry formation programs, however, registered an enrollment increase in one year of more than 1,000 (3%), from 34,414 in the 2001-02 school year to 35,448 in the current year. Substantial numbers of these laypeople are hired full time or part time in catechetics, pastoral administration, or other church "ministries."

From these numbers you can see clearly the future of the Novus Ordo. Already having essentially lost its priesthood and replaced it with a Protestant ministry, it will become further Protestantized by laymen, actually mostly laywomen, prancing about the "table." The Novus Ordo, having lost its priesthood, and thereby the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, will clearly become -- as if it were not already -- just another Protestant denomination.

Traditio;

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

There is no Novus Ordo Church. There is only the Holy Catholic Church, whose authority is divine in origin and demands either submission or schism. As for church participation, the drastic decrease in both religious vocations and attendence at the Tridentine service were primary reasons the holy Council was called. The fact that the wisdom of the Council has not yet completely reversed these preconciliar trends is due in large part to oppositional activities of modernist and traditionalist extremists, each seeking relentlessly to force the Church of God toward their own self-seeking goals. If the modernist extremists have done more harm than the traditionalist extremists, it is only because their numbers are notoriously greater. History has shown that a flurry of so-called "traditionalist" opposition typically follows any major growth in the Church. Such a tempest in a teapot occurred after the unilateral imposition of the new Tridentine Mass. And an indult was given so that nostalgic self-proclaimed "traditionalists" could continue to live in the past, attending the Holy Greek Mass until they passed away. Mercifully, history also reveals that such opposition inevitably does fade into oblivion within a couple of generations. Nostalgia is largely non-transferable. Liberalism on the other hand does not fade away. The Holy Catholic Church will still be dealing with self-proclaimed "progressives" long after the "traditionalist" flurry is dead and buried and the Tridentine indult is behind us.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 05, 2003.

Paul; checking those numbers, they had better hurry up..It doesn't take the proverbial rocket scientist to see what happened.

Vatican 2 in it's efforts totailor the church to Protestant spefications, did not take into account that true Catholics do not want to be Protestants..

Many just walked out, and with them their children, and future grandchildren.

The traditionals did not want to be a half breed Protestant-Catholic. So they had to go their separate way. If the Church worked half as hard to bring people in, as it does throwing them out, there might be some chance for success.

Treat yor loyal people shamefully, while you bow and scrape to Protestants. What respect do you think that people have for the V2 church? You may continue to say that it is Catholic, but at least some of us know better.

The Tabernacle is still in the middle right on center high altar. We still kneel to receive Our Blessed Lord and not into unblessed hands. and on and on..

You may say what you will, but I don't think the "palsy walsy" atmosphere of the N.O. is making the God of all creation, very well pleased.Check the old testament way the Jews approached their God.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

The TRADITIONALS, says Ed.

He picked a bold description for his lack of faith. I'm hopeful not all lovers of the Latin Mass resort to abandoning our holy mother Church. It would tend to division; as all of us know but Ed completely forgot.

I wonder why he's for dividing the seamless robe of our religion into AFL-NFL leagues? Is he planning to gamble on stadium matches soon; backing the team with marble helmets?

That Golden Circle of precious, precious ''tradition; all of a midsummer's dream; and Ed the puckish philosopher, with his banner: ''What fools these mortal be.''

He is counting the cash drawer of the faith today. Big profit is stacking up for a revival of DIGNIFIED faith; and Ed loves the sound of money jingling. He laughs at God's ordained clergy. They're not financially solvent enough to call their Church TRULY wealthy. It's ''tradition'' that rings the cash register, for Pete's sake! Just ADD it UP!

I really ought to advise Ed; Make a killing, Man! Corner the marble market before the word gets out. The demand for solid marble has to rise sharply, now that your camp is growing by leaps & bounds. More marble steps up to the sanctuaries will surely result from this renewed devotion to ''traditional'' perfection. --And, thinking about it, tell all your friends to sell that guitar & tambourine stock. It's not going anywhere for a long time. The world will come to an end and all the plebe Catholics will see: Richards was RIGHT! Why didn't we pay attention!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 05, 2003.

Secularization or new religions ,not changes in the liturgy are to blame, Ed. Historically: catholic dictatorships or royalties had higher percentages of catholics. Once nations became secular, the numbers dropped. See Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Spain (after Franco), Portugal, France, Italy, Mexico (not long ago a 99.99 Catholic country), Brazil...

Roman Catholicsm only thrived under adverse conditions in only one country: Poland (under communism) when the future Pope was there. Now, secular Poland is losing its catholicity.

The numbers are even worse for Protestant evangelicals in the USA. They haven't grown in numbers in the last 30 years.The Presbyterians, methodists, Lutherans,... have seen there numbers down. So it is not only a catholic problem, but also a Christian problem.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Elpidio, at lest you give me answers while the other two just say a lot of bull and can't even try giving an argument on rational grounds. The do the same with the other traditionals also. Nothing of any substance comes out of their mouths except personal attacks. Not just to me but all of us.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

Great religious orders such as those of the Jesuits and Dominicans, which were growing, and growing at an increasing rate, in the hundred years prior to Vatican II, stopped growing in 1965 and went immediately into rapid decline, often falling by between one-third and one-quarter in numbers. In rough figures, the Dominicans fell from ten thousand to six thousand, the Capuchins from sixteen to twelve thousand, the Salesians from twenty-two to seventeen thousand and the Jesuits, the largest order in the Church, from thirty-six to twenty-six thousand.

At exactly the same point, 1965, when the piecemeal demolition of the Mass of the Roman Rite began, Mass attendance in the Western world began to go into sharp and sudden decline. About 60 per cent of nominal Catholics in Australia, for example, attended Mass weekly in 1962; less than 20 per cent do so today. The drop is therefore of the order of seventy per cent on the 1965 figure.

It is unnecessary to multiply quotations from Popes or citations of figures in order to prove the obvious. The hoped for renewal of the Church simply has not occurred. Surely simple honesty demands that everyone abandon the game of the Emperor's new clothes, and join the honest but "ecclesiastically incorrect" little boy who proclaims that the Emperor is naked and that the marvellous new clothes are simply an illusion.

Father J. Pearson

These are hard line dates and figures. This all started in 1965 and not before. Show me where these figures are wrong.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

Strange bedfellows indeed! One good guy who denies the Godhead of Jesus Christ, and the other good guy determined to deny His holy Church's authority.

I believe both wrong, as well as their demographical and sociological pretenses. It wouldn't even matter if they could really back up half of their data analysis; it never was a prerequisite for truth that the Church should take over the earth. Nor would it conquer Christ if her membership dwindled down to a remnant.

Quality, not quantity, is the hallmark she never lost in past ages, nor will she lose it during the world's historical tajectory. It is better for her if the unbeliever sheds his Catholicism. Better for the Church in the world. But tragic for his immortal soul.

If Ed would like to start his own church, after an imagined beau ideal suitable to his taste, Christ will not be diminished, but Ed will fail as a Catholic. And, he & Elpidio would certainly not be the first. The Church is not dependent on the faith of one or two men out of millions. Nor one country more than any other. Ed hates secularism, and Elpidio is non-Catholic and secularist. Or he believes secularism will overtake the Catholic Church. Yes; strange fellows to find together here.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 05, 2003.

The Tridentine or Roman rite seminaries and orthodox Novus Ordo seminaries are expanding because of increased vocations. Traditional Catholic young men are not born eunuchs, so celibacy cannot possibly be the key issue. Could not it be that the lack of orthodoxy itself is a large part of the problem why young men are not responding to the call, if they can even hear it in the first place? With a few notable exceptions, the problem is compounded by our two bishops themselves, almost as if it was deliberately manufactured, for two reasons:

[1] They have relegated much of their duties to professional staff, often possessing and unafraid to assert their modernist agenda onto a bewildered laity. At the same time they court liturgical abuse and sacrilege because they seem unwilling to do much about this scandal. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is now just a meal and some Masses, if they are still that, are so banal and even contemptuous of Christ, that many Catholics, such as myself, flee in horror. I have lost count on how many "Masses" I have bolted from, sometimes not reaching the car before I vomited on the sidewalk. Now I only attend the Roman Mass. No shortage of altar boys there. It is odd that Channel 13, supposedly so well known for its investigative reporting has no idea about any of this. When I recall what they have "done to the Mass," I weep, sometimes uncontrollably. It is a crime even worse than abortion and other forms of mass-murder, it is a crime against the humanity of Christ Himself, not even to say His Divinity!

Is this some of your quality Eugene?

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

Hi.

I feel like the village idiot, so somebody point me to the best website about Novus Ordo Church. All I'm getting is a sketchy picture of Traditional vs. Novus Ordo.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

Novus Ordo, Rod is any (99.99%) of Roman catholics you see. There are about 100-160,000 people who don't follow the Pope. One of the Churches that I used to visit as vicepresident of Catholic Action was taken over by them. That was a rare case. These traditionalists were the Churc, which was the Church from 135 AD-1965 AD. Bishop Pius the I was the first to use the title Pope. He claimed to be a successor of Peter the apostle. Latin was the language of his church. Before that, a mixture of Greek and Latin. That is why the apostle Paul writes the letter to the Romans in Greek, because the majority were Greek speaking in the beginning.

They believe Pope John Paul II is lost. They still follow Pope Pius XII., even though he's been dead for a while (1958).

Rod, I represent the church of the first century. That church was either Aramaic speaking or Greek speaking. Jesus spoke aramaic, not Latin. My native language is Spanish, Nahuatl my grandmother's, English my adopted one, French , Koine Greek, and esperanto my hobbies. So which language is better? The one I understand and speak, of course.

Next time you pass by a synagogue, Eugene,ask the person there if they believe in Jesus. The question you pose implies that those Jews of the first century believed Jesus was God. If that is the case, why wasn't Paul, james, Peter and the others allowed to enter the synagogues, if the Jews don't accept Jesus Godhead?

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

Rod, I forgot to mention. Most famous traditionalist: Mel Gibson. By the way, he is making a movie about Jesus. He has 8 kids.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

I actually remember the Mass in Latin, the rail, the Holy Eucharist presented by the priest as the people kneeled, and the bells during the Mass. I remember the women in their veils and rosaries. Am I really that old? Am I reallly that nastalgic?

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.

I still remember those masses in Latin in the late 60s. I had to enter my Church on my knees from the street into the doors of it. When I went back to town in 1991, the Church was deserted. I counted less than 30 people. Except for a wedding or a funeral, it was almost empty. There were more people in the Apostolic Church across the river. The still dress traditional.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 05, 2003.

No one is traditonist, nor even Novus Ordo. The Missal is all that's Novus Ordo, and parts of the Liturgy of the Mass. We are all Catholics and continue in the same Tradition of the apostles, as long as our undivided loyalty is to our Pope. The so-called traditionists lurking around this forum have no partiality to Sacred Tradition different from my own; except to reject our last 4 (?) Popes. Tradition ends there, for them. A ludicrous proposition, as even Elpidio, a fallen away Catholic will concede. WE are all in a living Tradition; and have NOT departed from it. Ed & Jake are semi-heretical seperatists, like the Quebec citizen is in Canada. In revolt.

It's a dirty shame, because their mystical tendencies have not really gone out of style with Vatican II. This is still very much part of my own Catholic heritage, and I love it.

No; the problem, truly, is puritanical impatience with their fellow Catholics. The devil inspires them to feel disgust at the newer Liturgy of the Mass. Or, a pharisaical presumption of superiority over the rank and file Catholic. It's plain as day.

There is in fact a middle road. Because I'd prefer to speak modestly, I ''suggest'' it could be my way. We are none of us perfect, and I feel I am the lowest of sinners. But I have given my heart to Christ's holy Church since my early adolescence. The transfer from a Latin liturgy over to ''Novus Ordo'' celebrations wasn't so easy for me, either.

However, for constancy's sake; to Our Lord, I trusted, TRUSTED the Holy Spirit. It meant I had to trust our Holy Father, and I never doubted it. --Now I'm completely assimilated into the Church we all acknowledge to be John Paul II's flock.

If I could do it, any Catholic can. I am no better or worse a person than Ed or Jake or the others. I just believe it's God's Will. His design for the last days; and OUR task. But there are some who will not accept tasks. They demand their way, and no other. They flirt with schism because they LACK FAITH.

The devil could not be happier, to be allowed now, to drive this wedge of Phariseeism between faithful Catholics. May God have mercy on them, and deliver them from temptation.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 05, 2003.

Eugene , I am pleased with the sapient tone of your last post. We can agree to disagree, in more of a Christian type atmosphere. I will stop any vituperative remarks, if you will also do the same. It would promote better health for both of us.

Let us see who cracks first... I hope that it is neither one.

God bless you,

Ed

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

"The devil inspires them to feel disgust at the newer Liturgy of the Mass."

I mean, really.
It might possibly be that the mass is shortened into 30 min serving- size, digested with plenty of sugar coating, rounded out with less than no tradition.... or maybe it is the devil.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 06, 2003.

Ed,A breezy, detached gentleman's agreement like yours is nothing but hypocrisy. After you've torn your garments to rags here for all these months, you are so gracious as to give ME the chance to disagree with you? To AGREE to disagree with the Pharisees? For the sake of what???< You want to ''stop'' the vituperation and get cozy?

You are going down to defeat, Mister. Because you are simply wrong. Not for my satisfaction or ''health''-- but for the honor of the Catholic faith. For the vindication of His Holiness John Paul II and the Apostolic College. This is THEIR forum. We are THEIR servants.

You're lucky to still congregate on holy ground somewhere, like a protestant magpie looking for loot. You are a pirate, Ed. If you'd been blessed with genius, you'd be dangerous here. THANK GOD!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

off bold

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

No; the problem, truly, is puritanical impatience with their fellow Catholics. The devil inspires them to feel disgust at the newer Liturgy of the Mass. Or, a pharisaical presumption of superiority over the rank and file Catholic. It's plain as day.

It's all in your head, Gene; all in your head.

The substance of the sum total of your accusations... well, they exist in your posts, and in John's posts, in general, consistantly.

How a man at your age and supposed wisdom cannot see this clearly is beyond me.

Now... I truly hope that the way I wrote my words here wasn't to nebulous for you to grasp. Too unclear, too ambiguous, too nonsubstantive.

If you need any help understanding what I'm getting at, Eugene, just let me know, huh?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

You have a good heart, Emerald. You say awful things sometimes; but you don't fall into sin.

Since you took advantage of my efforts and simply pasted up my own post for its supposed knock-down; I might ask: What would motivate the reaction of our friends to our Post-Vatican II Church as it is? Is this because they feel for God? For religion? Is it faith?

I maintain it is only puritanical impatience with their fellow Catholics. People like myself, who have no animosity against the Pope, or against Vatican Council II. If I say the devil inspires them to feel disgust at the newer Liturgy of the Mass; it's only the sense I get. Who else will benefit by this separation between faithful Catholics over external differences in the Liturgy and our celebrations of Holy Mass?

Surely any negative vibration caused by or resulting from the worship of God in His Church is music to Satan's ear? Only harmony between us will be hateful to him. Harmony which those malcontents are determined to disturb.

I remind you-- what is disturbing isn't the ''puritanical impatience'' with us as ''Novus Ordo'' worshippers. I don't worry about anybody's approval at all. My worship definitely fulfills me and my obligation to God in faith.

What's disturbing is our current controversy. I represent the happiness of our Church. Jake & Ed represent the resentment to our Church. They are disgusted with our Church, I am enthusiastic and joyful.

Not because I want to kick you or Ed out. Never! Because I expect YOU & Ed to share in the joy, and you listen instead to the devil. It isn't in my head, Emerald. It's the design behind our friction: the devil enjoys it! You'd best find it out right away.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

Eugene, I see that you have rejected my very sincere peace offering with the worst diatribe yet. So be it, but I will not respond in kind.you say when you attend Mass

Peace be to you.......... and also to you. I'll just end with that.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

I judge you insincere, Ed. You aren't entering our forum with any intention of reaching accord. You deal in discord, and almost 90& of your ''contributions'' over time are anti-Vatican II, anti-Novus Ordo Liturgy and anti- the faithful of this site. It would be foolish to take you at your word now. The insults would merely continue in the guise of ''friendly discussion''. Do you have any experience with Jehovah's Witness visitors? All of them intrude into the Catholic home under these pretenses. As for our personal relations, I extend every token of friendship. But to suppotr my Catholic faith, relations must be adversarial; I'm sorry.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 06, 2003.

I'll keep praying for both of us Eugene........... God bless

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

From this point on, Ed R, keep my name out of your filthy posts.
You are nothing but a "broken record," dumping the same manure over and over again (including the guano you left on this thread), ignoring the many refutations thereof, etc..

Ed R, every word and thought that proceeds from your mouth and hands and skull-full-o'-mush is worthless.

Since you have broken this forum's rules probably 500 times, I consider you completely disqualified from posting here.
I consider you banned.

Gather your heretical trappings, and get out of this forum now (taking your four heretical cronies -- and your five guardian devils -- with you). Close the door on your way out.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

I agree time to up the ante, clealry you didnt take my advice and walk beneath a falling piano Ed. Pity, suicide is a sin but it doesnt rate comared to leading people away from their faith. My other advice from the last time we chatted... the key word I told you about was "service". Fair enough eh? Play to your strengths. Yes tell the world youre here and ask how you can bring it a cup of tea.

Youre as rare and precious as an emerald and about as useful. Loyal alright but examine your motives. Shift the blame, ignore medical advice and bathe often my freind.

Get a life Ed this is a place for Catholics to discuss issues and events relevant to the church today.Your loopy paranoia and conspiracy theories are not on the agenda, they havent been for 30 years.

For once I find myself in total agreement with Mr Gecik, Ed has never offered anything constructive or positive about our Church.

We are all very well aware of the difficulties and excesses that arose from Vatican II but by and large the church has redressed these issues. As it always has done in times of change.

Thats the problem, he really thinks hes onto something, hes either extremely limited intellectually or just a crack pot. The truth is every group has its lunatic fringes and Ed and co represent ours.

He scows the web searching for "proof" of a crisis in the church and the evil fruits of Vatican II. He waits for a reaction from his toxic cut and paste efforts from orthodox Catholics ... well the reaction is clear . Grab your mates and get on your bike. The only rotten fruit around here is the feremting brew that he passes off as brain tissue. Fruitcake.

Godd luck on your spiritual journey Ed, Lord knows you need it.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

This must be what Hell is like. Without the fire.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 07, 2003.

Yes, Emerald-- we know. You're a sensitive soul, and would hardly expect hell to be tender and conciliatory. You want us to reflect heaven and grace.

We are only human, that's the bad part. Just like yourself. Let me repeat my suggestion; it may be the first good one you have received over the Internet:

Go to a parish near you. It should be a parish of our post-Vatican II Church, which you all keep calling Novus Ordo, ''Neo'' and such put- downs. (It's only the Catholic Church.)

Speak to the pastor; even if you have to await an appointment. Let him confront all your worries. Give him the chance, not to rebut you, but to advise you spiritually as a Catholic priest.

You need spiritual guidance. If I myself have failed you, then I'm sorry. You are not giving the Church a chance; but it isn't too late for you. Pray. Ask God for wisdom. I've suggested to Ed and some others, PRAY FOR WISDOM. They only return with with redundancies. Prayer is the ONLY worthwhile redundant action in life. Get redundant with God, Ememrald. I'll do that myself. OK?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 07, 2003.