Hi everyone,

Regina said something in another thread that got me thinking this week: "Looking at all of this in all it's....vastness, we have to ask why it wasn't until the 1960's that the Church encountered any special difficulty in dealing with "modern man" and "modern times" and the "modern world?"

I think this is a very good observation, Regina. Why the ‘60s? I’ve been pondering this a lot lately. I now believe that there truly IS a crisis of the faith within our Church today. And the ‘60s was an important turning point for it all.

OK, here are some very real questions and concerns I’ve been thinking about for quite some time. (It’s all been “clicking” and coming together for me in the last few weeks so I had to express it.)

The questions and concerns I will put forth to you, my dear Catholic brothers, are about the state of our Holy Mother Church today. ( I understand that most of you here won’t agree with what I will say and have heard this drumbeat all before. That’s okay, because these are my concerns and opinions and I wish to voice them at least once.

I feel they are simply too real for me or for any other Catholic living today to easily dismiss or brush off as insignificant…

*(Double Warning to myself: Robert, you’re asking for it. Get ready to be loathed, despised, and hated by your fellow Catholic brothers at this forum once and for all after posting this. But no matter. Your conscience is calling you to speak your mind out now on these matters at least once to your fellow Catholics. So do it. Then, if you’re driven out, just go. Besides this is taking time away from your prayers.)

Okay, my goal for posting these messages is twofold:

1) To try to make at least some of you Catholics here at this forum open their hearts and minds to the possibility that there indeed could be a horrible crisis happening in our Holy Mother Church today. I find that some staunch Vat II defenders around here seem to be in complete denial over this. Isn’t it possible that things just might have went (a little) awry over the last 40 years? Maybe our post Vat II Catholic Church isn't entirely the work of the Holy Spirit after all, eh? Could it be? I think so. I'll tell you why. Just keep reading.

2) To convince more Catholics to get down on their knees and pray, pray, pray the Rosary every day, and tell others to pray it every day too… This is without a doubt the most powerful weapon we have for positive change. This is the primary way Our Lady of Fatima told us how mankind can achieve a period of peace for the world, stop heresies and deceptions of all sorts, and obtain the salvation of many souls (most important).

[continued…]

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003

Answers

(This is going to be very long. I wrote it over a period of days on my spare time. And to avoid an overly long and drawn out essay and make this easier on the eyes, I’ll post it as a series of six or seven different messages.)

All righty, here goes. After lots of thought and study on this matter. Here are my top ten reasons why I think the Church is in a crisis today…

1) The decadence/emptying of so many Religious orders, seminaries, convents, and Catholic schools today . I see overwhelming evidence to support this claim. Vocations are clearly down and have been down since the ’60s.

2) The growing decline in Mass attendance since the 60’s. (Can’t argue with this from what I’ve seen personally over the years, especially among younger people of today.) My 74 year-old mother, who’s been a devout Catholic all her life, tells me how she’s been noticing this trend over the last 40 years too.

3) A decline in the belief that Christ is truly present in the Blessed Sacrament (especially since the 60s). I read a survey/ poll recently that said how something like over 75% of Catholics today don’t really believe in Christ’s true Presence in the Blessed Sacrament. Most think it’s just a “memorial”. Imagine that. Over 75% of Catholics not believing in THE center point of our Catholic Faith -- The holy sacrifice of the Mass. Not good.

[Continued…]

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Here’s a big one that many of you here are quite familiar with…

4) A seemingly devolving liturgy (since the 1962 Trid Mass) . Whew! This one’s been a HUGE and INTENSE topic of debate with regulars here for a while, hasn’t it? I mean, it just won’t go away. Why does it not go away or ever get 100% resolved? How can this be happening about something soooo important?

I think there MUST be a deeper spiritual reason for it all (but I won’t go into it too much). First let me say this. No doubt about it, I can sense that all of you here (on both sides of the debate) are very sincere, devoted, and knowledgeable Catholics. I admire all of you greatly. People like Eugene, John G, Gordon, etc on the one side have made some good points.

People like Emerald, Jake, Regina, Ed, Isabel, etc…are also all marvelous and sincere people. They really love their Catholic faith deeply. I feel very sorry for them that they have been meanly and wrongly accused of being schismatics. Sorry, but know one here has ever been able to prove 100% in my opinion that any of them are disobeying the Pope and the Vatican. It’s just opinion and conjecture.

As a matter of fact, I think these five people have all made some very, very good points in favor of the old Mass - and obviously take their faith VERY seriously. I’ve learned a lot from them much over the past few weeks.

And really… what’s so very wrong about standing up for 1900+ years of untampered tradition, defending the very Mass the great saints of the past attended, trying to make sure the infallible Dogmas of our Faith handed down by the apostles are preserved, etc?? Sheesh! You’d think they were murderers or something the way they’re treated around here… just for wanting to worship their God in the most reverent manner possible (i.e. assisting at a Traditional Latin Mass). What is so wrong with that? It’s NOT like they’re out here to push for “woman in the priesthood”, or “liberal rights”, or “there’s no Purgatory, so let’s just abolish this stinkin’ Docrine ‘cause I don’t like it”, or some other dumb/sinful anti-catholic agenda. No. They’re obviously very fine individuals who are all practicing their Catholic faith very devoutly. In fact, I really wish there would be more Catholics like them in this world!

All you other regulars over here also are good Catholics. You stand up for what you believe in and speak your opinions on what you feel are untruths, half-truths, lies, etc. And I respect that too. After all, that’s what I’m doing now.

By the way, I did and do NOT say that I think that the new Mass is invalid. No, not at all. I myself attend the new Mass almost everyday, so I’d be a hypocrite if I said this. I truly think it still is the holy sacrifice of the Mass…

But I now agree, after much thought, prayer, and study on this matter, with much of what Emerald, Jake, Regina, Ed, and Isabel - who take a more traditional stanza to the One True Faith - have been saying. It seems to me that the liturgy of the Mass (not the Mass itself) has indeed devolved since the ‘60s…. the liturgy of the new Mass (not the new Mass itself) is quite clearly inferior to a certain degree to the liturgy of the Tridentine Rite Mass according to the Missal of 1962.

And you know one thing that especially convinced me? The fact that so many knowledgeable and devout Catholics at this forum cannot agree 100% on this crucially important topic! Look at how all of you guys are fighting with each other, some even accusing others of blasphemy! Sheesh!

The bottom line is: all Catholics can’t agree with what’s happened to the very center point of the Catholic faith – the holy sacrifice of the Mass! And as hard as it is for some of you here to admit, the concerns that some of the so-called traditionalist’s have been putting forth here are good ones. They just don’t seem to go away (because there is truth to it.).

How can someone not think that the changing of the liturgy of the Mass (after 1960 and Vatican Council II) has not produced the fruits of division and disunity among Catholics today, especially after witnessing the intense debates that go on between devout, sincere, and intelligent Catholics at this forum? Yep, that was the real clincher for me! How can it be a good thing for today’s Catholic Church? And how can it be good thing for people who are on the outside looking in, possibly thinking about joining Christ’s Church? Heck, if we can’t even display true unity amongst ourselves, how can we expect others to believe in the one True Church as well?

[continued]

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

More matters that point to a possible crisis within the Church…

5) The “for many” and for “all” argument that Ed, Emerald, and others have pointed out here at this forum for so long. It is definitely a strong argument, in my view. Really. Why weren’t Christ’s words just left there and not changed the way it had been prior to the Trid Mass 1962 liturgy ? Christ’s exact words at the Last Supper in the Gospels were indeed “for many”. This is undeniable. The “for all” argument has merit too, but it’s still not Christ’s exact words. It’s an interpretation of what He meant backed up by other parts of scripture. The words “for all” are still true (He wants all to be saved). But the importance of using those exact words “for many” were insisted upon by various dogmatic councils for over 1900 years. Doesn’t that raise at least a tiny red flag about the new Mass and the words “for all” for some?? Why did it have to be changed since the ‘60s? Look at the confusion it’s caused.

--------

Think about this for a minute. The devil’s having a field day here. The holy sacrifice of the Mass is what satan hates, loathes, despises, and abominates most in this whole entire world. I mean, why shouldn’t satan hate it to the very core of his filthy being? For by His holy Cross He has redeemed the world and purchased for us the rewards of eternal life”. The Cross/Sacrifice at Calvary is really what won the victory over satan. Lucifer’s number one goal is to destroy the Catholic Church, destroy the holy sacrifice of the Mass, and bring down as many souls as he can into hell forever.

At the very least he might be permitted by God to cause division and disunity among the members of His Church - and especially its center point; the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This makes perfect sense to me. I truly believe God is permitting all this to happen as punishment for the immensity of our sins!

I think the devil -- the father of all lies – has indeed been allowed by God to work his (possibly last) battle and campaign of infiltration and deception against Christ’s Church. At least for a short period of time. Satan will attempt the destruction of our Holy Catholic Church. Because outside of the Church there is no salvation for mankind. And that is satan’s number one goal. To lead all souls to hell with him forever.

Of course, we are assured by the Holy Spirit that this will NEVER happen, as the gates of Hell will never prevail against His Church. But, by golly, that does not mean that Lucifer and his infinitely hateful croonies will not stop at nothing to try and abolish the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass altogether, if they can. Doesn’t it make sense that the devil, in his immense hatred for God and His Church, would want to destroy the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass altogether if he were given the power to do so from God (at least for a little while)?
< br> I also think it is very fitting for our Church to undergo extreme suffering and persecution before its glorious restoration. Why wouldn’t or couldn’t God allow this to happen? After all, without the Cross and suffering there can be no glorious eternal reward. This is a central teaching of our faith. So again, why shouldn’t God’s Church mirror the events of Christ’s own life, death, and resurrection while here on earth? Why should the Church Herself be exempt from any kind of persecution or Cross? To tell you the truth, it would NOT make sense to me if there were no crisis. It is fitting that Christs’s Church indeed does go through a major period of bleeding/persecution/apostasy and suffering. This would only make its glorious final resurrection/ restoration all the more triumphant.

That’s why I believe the crisis that is ensuing in the Church since the‘60s up ‘til now is only the beginning. Yes, I think it will get much worse before it gets better, for the reasons I just mentioned. And ultimately, of course, the evil one’s head will be victoriously crushed by The Woman once and for all. The way it was so gloriously prophesized in the Book of Genesis since the beginning of creation - and at Fatima.

The division which exists among good Catholics at this forum is a perfect sign of the times. An example of how God’s faithful are being allowed to be deceived and confused by the errors of the evil one.

[continued…]

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

OK, more questions/concerns about the less than ideal (under statement) state of our Holy Mother Church since the ‘60s…

6) An embarrasingly large homesexual scandal/problem among the Clergy today. I was shocked to learn about this and researched it quite a bit. Trust me, the problem is far, far worse than most Catholics realize. And definitely far worse than ever before in the Church’s 2000 year history. Homosexuality is abnormally rampant in the Church today! Don’t believe how big this problem is? Want more info?

Visit this site and read what’s there with the attention and care it deserves, like I did. Then click on where it says “Saint Sebastian’s Angels”. This is an obscene Internet chat forum comprised of homosexual priests and bishops… with filthy pornographic pictures/obscene homosexual conversation of priests and bishops, etc. Warning: it is very filthy!

Then buy and read this book: “The Homosexual Network: Private Lives and Public Policy” by Father Enrique T. Rueda. You will not believe what’s happening in many of the seminaries today. This is the biggest reason why I am so discouraged about pursuing a possible Religious life if my annulment with my wife does go through in a few years.

7) The Vatican-Moscow pact of 1962. In 1962, the Vatican and the schismatic Russian Church came to an agreement. Also known as the pact of Metz. According to its terms, the “Russian Orthodox Church” sent observers to Vatican II. The condition it put forth was namely that no condemnation whatsoever of communism should be made there. Thus the council could say nothing about the greatest evil of the age , communism. The Catholic Church has been adamantly against < b> communism.

My point: Why wasn’t communism flat out condemned at Vatican II (1962- 1965)??? Especially when Our Lady of Fatima mentioned that communism was the specific instrument chosen by God to chastise the whole world for its sins if it did not heed the requests of Fatima.

8) The book called “The Murky Waters of Vatican II”. You can buy it here. Tan publications is a fine publisher of top quality Catholic books with a very excellent reputation. There is much evidence to back up the claim that Vat II has caused the fruits of division and disunity among our Holy Catholic Church today. Why is it so hard for some Catholics over here to see?

Why don’t some of you buy this book and at least see what it says? After all, as the description at that link says, there just might be a , “Progressivist-Modernist-Liberal agenda for the continued destruction of the Catholic Church as it has come down to us from Apostolic times.”.

Some people say what we’ve seen since Vat II is a very subtle indirect attack on the solemn dogmatic definitions and teachings of our Holy Catholic Church. I agree. The door is wide open now for another Council to use languages that could easily undermine existing infallible dogma/teachings of the Church. That would be disastrous, as I am sure all here could agree.

9) The Third Secret of Fatima supposed to be revealed in 1960 but was not. Why wasn’t it revealed by God’s chosen ministers at that time without any delay? Many Catholics here argue about the importance of obedience to the Pope. Fine, I agree 100%. But how about the seemingly far worse (almost inconceivable) disobedience on the part of the Vatican and its chosen ministers to fulfill a request that comes straight from Heaven??? And again I ask myself, why did our Blessed Mother ask the Church’s ministers to reveal this last secret in 1960 of all years? Could it be that the ‘60s would be an important turning point for the whole world and the Church - and be the time for a spread of even more of Russia’s errors throughout the world than ever before - - if we did not heed Our Most Loving Mother’s simple request? I do not think it is a coincidence that our Lady wanted this Secret to be revealed around 1960.

[Continued…]

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Ooops I goofed big time. Sorry. How do I get out of this now so I can continue?

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Sheesh. Soooo sorry about that everyone. (My HTML skills aren't as good as I thought.) Okay, let's continue... Which leads to a very, very important point…

10) The whole “Consecration of Russia” being done or not confusion. Has it or hasn’t it been done or not already?? Why is there so much confusion and unclarity about this subject, even among the most devout Catholics of today?? Has it really been done? Are we all really so sure that consecrating “the world” - and not specifically “Russia” - was really acceptable to Jesus and Mary in Heaven regarding the alleged “consecration of Russia” in 1984?

We can’t say with 100% certainty that Sister Lucy is indeed the one speaking whenever we hear a censored interview or letter coming out of the Vatican about what she is allegedly saysing on these matters these days. Especially when what Sister Lucy has said her whole lifetime on this subject and what she is allegedly saying now is contradicting itself. A few Cardinals from the Vatican all want us to just accept what they’re saying as fact. But if we do this, we must also believe that Sister Lucy has changed her whole life’s story of Fatima within the last few years.

But here’s the biggest reason why we can’t trust second-hand messengers. Sister Lucy is a nun in a cloistered convent. She has been given an order to stay silent on these matters of Fatima by the Vatican. She is not allowed to talk about the Fatima message or the third secret to the general public. Sheesh, talk about creating even more confusion and choas on this subject! There are powerful forces at work here within the Vatican apparatus that are trying to prevent the whole truth about Fatima from surfacing. Why? < br>
Why doesn’t the Vatican just end this silence imposed on sister Lucy so she can freely speak her mind about the message of Fatima and Our Lady’s request? Then this whole confusion could be cleared up by her once and for all. Especially before the 95 year-old Sister Lucy passes away from this world, which could be at any time. < br>
Why would Our Lady specifically mention the word “Russia” if consecrating “the world” was good enough for Her and for the Father in Heaven? And besides, the consecration of something is a specific act in of itself. Consecrating “the world” is sort of a contradiction because it is not specific enough.

I think, like a handful of other Catholics, that the consecration of Russia has NOT been done according to Our Lady’s requests. The obvious reason is because Russia has NOT been converted to Catholicism since the supposed consecration of the world since 1984. There are scarcely 1 million Catholics in Russia out of 150,000,000+ people). The state of Russia, and by all means I can give you specifics, is indeed far worse than ever before, including 1984!! There is no “gradual change” happening in Russia as some would like you to believe.

Russia is one of the most immoral nations on the face of the earth< /b> (I can list irrefutable facts/reasons why I say this if anyone wants to hear them.) It indeed has spread her errors throughout the world (ex: abortion was first legalized in Russia). This immoral, un- Catholic condition in present day Russia is only getting far worse, and will indeed take a HUGE miracle to change.

The Blessed Virgin Mary has said ONLY SHE CAN HELP US. So we need to pay very close attention to Her requests. No worldly government will ever bring the true peace and conversion of Russia that Our Lady spoke about at Fatima.

Our Lady has worked such miracles of conversion on whole countries before, and quickly I might add (like Mexico). The Blessed Mother promises to convert Russia and bring a period of peace to all mankind if we heed her requests. What are we nuts not to listen? Why is the Church and its ministers not obeying Our Lady’s Requests? What a crime against God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and all the rest of Heaven!

It’s been almost 20 years now since the supposed consecration of 1984, and things have only gotten worse for Russia since 1984. Can we risk calling the Holy Virgin Mary, Mother of God a liar about not keeping her promises of consecrating Russia and bringing peace to the world? No way. That would really be blasphemy if there ever was one.

Sister Lucy has spoken of “diabolical disorientation” that has gripped the clergy. Amazingly, how can you look at the above facts and then hear so many modern-day Catholics describing this sad period of human history and all its extreme immorality/decadence as “a new advent of humanity”?. Or even worse, “the work of the Holy Spirit”???
< br> No wonder why it’s so easy to feel confused and disoriented if you’re a Catholic or a non-Catholic wanted to enter in to His Church today.

[Continued…]

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Starting with HTML. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

Hey, is it fixed?

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Okay, great. Thank you Emerald! Let me finish off now (so sorry everyone. Thought I had this whole HTML thing all figured out, HA!)... Okay, the grand finalee... Well, there you have it. My reasons why I truly do think there is a crisis within the Catholic Church today… And why I feel the early 1960s (yes, right around the time of Vat II) might have been the start of some real bad fruits.

“For By their fruits ye shall know them”[ 1 John 2 ]

Sorry if I have made many enemies among you today by writing this series of posts. I am simply worried about how bad things could get in the Church. We have been warned that if the Church and its ministers continue to ignore Our Lady’s requests of Fatima, mankind will undergo a far greater punishment than anything we’ve ever seen in history (not my words, Fatima). So the division and disunity of Vat II is just the tip of the iceberg, I’m afraid. I’m talking about the annihilation of nations that our Lady warned us about at Fatima in 1917. Mankind just might be on the verge of a great global chastisement/catastrophe. Most of the other Fatima prophecies have come true already.

Here’s what we can all do to stop a global chastisement from occurring…

The daily recitation of the Rosary is the most powerful weapon we have against the evils happening in our Church today and the world. The Rosary has the power to put all these diabolical problems to flight. And that’s a reassurance that comes to us directly from Heaven. and has been repeated throughout the ages.

With all my heart, if these messages end up being helpful to at least one person here… If I have gotten just one person to regularly pray the Rosary - the way Our Lady has requested us to - then all of this writing will have been worth it. I don’t care if everyone else here makes fun of me or calls me an idiot.

Our Lady has said that the hour is late and only She can help us now. So let us not continue to ignore or underscore our Holy Blessed Mother’s most loving requests. Let us pray that the true consecration of Russia be done once and for all according to Our Lady of Fatima’s specific requests. The consecration of Russia must specifically be done by the Pope in union with all the Bishops of the world. When this consecration really does happen, we will know it!!! A miracle will take place in the world which will be far, far greater than even the great Miracle of the Sun, which was the greatest miracle of modern times and witnessed by over 70,000 people.

Let us also do all we can to promote the Five First Saturday devotion Our Lady requested of us. Let us tell others to pray the Rosary everyday. Let us also tell others about this urgent message and ask them to tell others, etc. The time is running out. It is already late. And remember: in the end Her Immaculate Heart will triumph.

Sorry if I have caused enemies for what I feel is a crisis in our Church and a deliberate suppression of the truth.

Let us often pray this powerful prayer during the day. “Oh, my Jesus, it is for love of thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I offer this sacrifice up to Thee.”

Peace in Christ. May God Bless every one of you.


“Fatima is more relevant and more urgent than ever before.” - - Pope John Paul II

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Keep going.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

Keep going. If this thread gets deleted, I'm copying it as you go, and with your permission, I'll put it up on my site and advertise it to the four winds if you so wish.

Keep going...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

I'm done for tonight, Emerald. Thank you for your help and encouragement. I'm going to bed.

-- Robert (Robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

'night!

Thank you.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 06, 2003.

Hi Robert

Im trying to stay out of the "traditional" threads. Like you I would like to think of the "traditional" people on the forum you mention as friends .I know Ill just get rude or nasty. I have a tendancy to do this with Jake and Ed especially not through frustration with their line of arguing but sheer mind numbing boredom with the repeat issues raised.

I approached your post with an open mind and in the spirit of dialogue, I quickly realised the futility of such efforts...

"Looking at all of this in all it's....vastness, we have to ask why it wasn't until the 1960's that the Church encountered any special difficulty in dealing with "modern man" and "modern times" and the "modern world?"

The church has encountered many difficulties dealing with modern man and modern times over the past 2000 years. The current "crisis" is nothing in comparison to the challenges laid down by man in the past. That said, the short period of one hundred years from 1860-1960 did see dramatic changes to how man interacted with his fellow man and the world around him. More changes perhaps than the previous entire 100,000 years (or whatever it has been) of our existance on earth.

So forgive me Robert I didnt make it through the reat of your post post, the clincher was

"I think this is a very good observation, Regina".

To me if this observation inspired you into pondering your faith, we arent really going to be talking the same language. Im sure you are well intentioned and devout etc and with a prayer life as rigorous as you present the full truth will be revealed to you.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Robert

"And you know one thing that especially convinced me? The fact that so many knowledgeable and devout Catholics at this forum cannot agree 100% on this crucially important topic! Look at how all of you guys are fighting with each other, some even accusing others of blasphemy!"

forgive me for being facetious but i guess that means you would have sided with Luther too. surely you must take some comfort in the knowledge that God will be with our Church until the end of time. the interloping homosexuals will not stop it being the One Church. the Church is protected by God under a perpetual cast-iron guarantee.

i also hink you should look away from VII to the 1960's generally. the coincidence of post-war wealth and education (free-thought) for all coupled with the availability of drugs and the media explosion took their toll on society generally. one manifestation would be the promiscuity that led to the baby-boom. another would be a move away from true spirituality toward man-made, drug- fueled "enlightenment".

oh, and i still don't get how having the priest stand back to the congregation muttering the Mass in LAtin would increase Mass attendances.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2003.

Robert,

I just want to say, what a job well done! God has rewarded you in your search for truth. And I appreciate all your hard work in this post.

Emerald, I haven't copies this since you said you were. If I ever want a copy, may I get it from you?

-- Isabel (joejoe1REMOVE@msn.com), May 06, 2003.

Robert:

Well done. Don't listen to the great flapping of gums that's sure to ensue in the wake of your fine observations. You will be demonized, hated, reviled, threatened, cursed, slandered, insulted, and spat upon; all by people describing themselves not only as "Catholics," but as the best Catholics.

Remember at all times and in al places that Our Lord was treated the same way, and that you & I are not worthy to be treated better than He. I look forward with great hope to the first week in June when, God willing, we will meet in person, and I will be privelaged to assist with you at your very first Traditional Latin Mass.

Blessed be God in His Angels and in His saints!

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), May 06, 2003.

Robert

you need to get yourself out to Spain fast.

i have visited countless massive Cathedrals out there. at least one took over a century to build. in the main, they would have used slave labor. many many people would have died. when you enter, the centre-piece is staggeringly beautiful. you have the organ and the seats for the choristers. you have the very very grand and ornate altar. and you have magnificent rows of seats fitted with the finnest upholstery. that bit is cordoned off by iron bars -- because the majority of the congregation, people like you and me, would stand behind the bars peering in at the gentry as they sat in comfort. the majority, like you and me, would have had no real access to a priest. the gentry had it all. including indulgences.

but the Church moved on. go to a modern working Catholic Mass in Spain and just see the difference. is tradition rweally what you think it is? do you know what you are getting into?

you may think that you "like tradition", but, in common with all protestants, you are making a personal choice as to the bits you like. you are creating your own belief system.

and the real problem for you Robert is that, unlike many protestants who are brought up in a vacuum, you know (assuming that you are of sound mind) what you are doing. there is no excuse of ignorance. you know the full extent of your apostasy.

while you are in Spain, btw, try to imagine how much more fulfilling the Mass would be of it was spoken in a tongue that you understand. progress, Robert.

did Paul rock up in Rome and speak Aramaic? did Jesus preach in Latin? were the Gospels originally written in Latin?

the Church is what it is. accept it or accept that you are a protestant.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 06, 2003.

By their fruits you shall know them...

And what, pray tell, ARE the culture-changing fruits of the T-Mass crowd? After all, if it's all you claim it is, nothing short of culture changing miracles should be happening all over.

I know, you are a "small flock". But besides big happy Catholic families (at least so far), a handful of schools...what have you done to win souls for Christ and His Church?

I realise this is a hard question. But in Latin America, among the Regnum Christi movement especially we have tens of thousands of active Catholic families who are winning back souls from protestantism, capturing the high ground culturally from the pagans, restoring ethics to the workplace and politics... in short, LOTS OF FRUIT.

And all this is being accomplished not by some Deus ex machina invocation (incantation?), which is supposed to somehow nullify the laws God built into human nature, Mary suddenly doing all the work while humanity just gets operated on mutely and without cooperating... shoot, if THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS REQUIRED, WHY DIDN'T CHRIST DO IT AT PENTECOST?.

I don't think you understand just exactly what "consecration" means or realize the vast difference between magic and Christian blessings.

Only when most Catholics and ALL PRIESTS take Mary's message to heart will those miraculous things come about - but how are we do bring about such a conversion of souls by sitting on our duffs complaining that the Pope say the incantation correctly or so and so hasn't done the magic just so?

You view of "disaster" for the Church is a North American/Northern European view. In other words, Myopic. Not the whole picture.

As I've posted before, the T-Mass alone didn't save the WEST from the rise of Communism! Or from the rise of Protestantism! Nationalism, or the modern atheistic state! It didn't protect Europe from the disaster of two world wars either. Post hoc ergo propter hoc... whatcha going do?

But elsewhere the Church is coming out of the catacombs and beginning to thrive - all without the T-Mass.

Thousands of youths are praying the rosary, routinely adoring our Lord in eucharistic adoration, going door to door to strengthen the faith of their fellow Catholics, organizing drives to help the poor, the sick, the lonely.

What are your people doing in so far as the spiritual and corporal works of mercy is concerned?

Going to Mass is essential But it's not the only thing Catholics are called to do. Saying the Rosary is important, as is having a true devotion to Mary (found not in lots of flowers and prayers only, but above all in the imitation of her VIRTUES), but that's not the only thing required of Catholics.

The Lord didn't tell his apostles to "go ye therefore and do this in memory of me, teaching all people to pray to my mother and beyond this alone will save the world".

No. The Mass is essential, devotion to Mary is essential. But only as the needed fuel of the apostle who has to convert the pagan culture and systems, baptizing the technology, the means of spreading the word, schools, factories, professions, - until we've made "disciples of all nations".

I appreciate that this requires martyrdom and a life of sacrifice and hard work. It's onerous work and embarrassing. It makes us realize immediately how tough the world, flesh and devil are - when we stand up and try to convert the world, discipline the flesh and reject Satan....

But I'm sorry folks, there's no magic bullet way. Had there been, Jesus Christ would have made it easy on us and told us in the beginning.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 06, 2003.

I don't think you understand just exactly what "consecration" means or realize the vast difference between magic and Christian blessings.

Thankfully Our Lady herself told us exactly what She meant on June 13, 1929 at Tuy, Spain…

That’s when the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared in the presence of the Most Holy Trinity in the most solemn of all Marian apparitions that has ever taken place anywhere in history. Our Lady was standing beside Her Son on the Cross, and God the Father appeared over the head of God the Son and God the Holy Ghost appeared in between the Father and the Son…

And in the presence of the Holy Trinity, She said: “The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father to make, and to order that in union with him and at the same time all the bishops of the world make the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means…”

This is as clear as can be. She is telling us that the solemn act of consecration of Russia is THE instrument of conversion for that nation< u> and it is through this conversion that the whole world will have peace.

Do you still think this consecration request is little more than a Christian Blessing? Don’t you believe in miracles, Joe? Are you doubting in a promise that was made by Our Lady in the presence of the Most Blessed Trinity? Do we really believe in the message of Fatima – a message that has been authenticated beyond a shadow of a doubt; accompanied by one of the greatest miracles of all time, and which was witnessed by over 70,000 people?

I think that’s really the problem, here. Many of the Church’s key ministers (and us lay people) simply do not believe in the Fatima message anymore. They do not see the urgent importance of listening to our Lady’s humble requests. So they ignore it and place little importance on the Rosary. This hurts her Son Jesus's Heart so much.

Our Blessed Mother is giving us a way out of an impending chastisement. Let us pray that the Church takes Heaven up on it’s offer -- before the Hand of Her angry Son falls once and for all upon mankind and cleanses it of its many sins in a most terrible manner. < br>
“Many times the Most Holy Virgin told my cousins Francisco and Jacinta, as well as myself, that many nations will disappear from the face of the earth. She said that Russia will be the instrument chosen by Heaven to punish the whole world if we do not obtain the conversion of that poor nation.”

Sister Lucy to Father Fuentes

My original posts were not an attempt to trash the new Mass, or blame the problems today on the “Vatican II Council” or the “Traditional Mass” or “Birth Control” or “Homosexuality” or “a decline in Church attendance” or any of the other (very real) problems the world and the Church are suffering from today. No. I just wanted to give people an overview of the “bad apples” that have sprouted up in the last 40 years. So they can possibly see for themselves why I say there is a crisis in our Church.

What I really wanted to get across was that the real reason all this is happening is because the Church and it’s ministers have blatantly ignored and suppressed Our Lady of Fatima’s message, since 1960. Here’s what the Virgin Mary has said…

“If my requests are not granted, Russia will spread her errors throughout the world, raising up wars and persecutions against the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.”

Let us pray so that the Pope makes the solemn order to consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart in union with all the bishops of the world (under pain of excommunication if the bishops don’t obey) as soon as possible. Praying for this event to happen is a big thing all of us Catholics can do to make it happen sooner and avoid the annihilation of nations she speaks of next.

"Father, The Most Holy Virgin is very sad no one has paid any attention to Her message, neither the good nor the bad."

Sister Lucy in an interview with Father Fuentes

Peace in Christ. God Bless.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Go on, Robert. Keep going. Ignore the flapping jowls. Go.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), May 06, 2003.

Jake,

Thanks so much for the comments you made to me a few posts back. I too will be very happy to attend my first Traditional Mass thanks to you. I received your pamphlet and video today about the Tridentine Mass entitled "The Most beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven". It looks fantastic. The back cover says its a "1500 year-old rite" Wow, what a historical treasure this Mass is. Thank God it's still been preserved in some places. I'll have to see the video. Now I know I'll be able to follow along in english with what's going on! Thank you so much for the other booklet you sent me entitled "Christ Denied". Take care.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 06, 2003.

Robert,

You have put much effort into this.

Reading between the lines I understand your intent.

However, your intent is not clearly stated. Furthermore, the voluminous delivery littered with innocuous red herrings does a disservice to the message coming from your heart that underlies it all.

The 'complexity' of content presented allows the intent to be lost.

The red herrings -e.g. Traditional Mass, Homosexual Priests etc. offer only diversion from your intent -in one regard these 'red herrings' may bring attention to the potential intent; however, they truly only serve to either lead away from your intent or offer diversion for those that knowingly or unknowingly oppose what you and I both know needs to be understood and acted upon.

I agree with you. Our Church is in crisis.

Our Church manifested is people -the crisis is a result of people being led astray -plain & simple.

The message should be simple, clear, succint, concise AND above all always focused on ultimate truth -- NO ONE can argue against it. IT will contrast clearly. IT will not be lost in voluminity. IT will expose those aginst it. The power to overcome this crisis resides with God as does ultimate truth -faithfully & simply use what is at your disposal already.

It does not matter how right we are when we minister as much as it matters how effective we are.

Sincerely in Christ,

Daniel////

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 06, 2003.

I totally agree about the degeneration of the Mass.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 06, 2003.

Jmj

I was very sad to notice your messages, Robert P. I had been getting to know and like you over the past month. It is an extreme shame that you fell under the influence of certain twisted individuals who have lied and deceived you, who have introduced you to written works that are extremely pleasing to satan, who have fooled you into believing falsehoods about the Fatima situation, etc., etc..

My major hope now is that you still realize that you are not permitted to align yourself in worship with schismatics (like SSPX gang and the Five Stooges who are now leaving this forum) -- that the pope requires you to attend Mass (any rite) always and only at a parish licitly governed by your local (arch)bishop.

Robert, I haven't had a chance to read much of your humongous series of posts (above), so I don't know if you have been fooled into accepting any heresies yet. If you have not, and if you will be attending only licitly celebrated Masses, I would welcome you to stay at the forum and allow people to try to show you the way(s) you have now slipped into error.

God bless you.
John PS: It is not acceptable to speak of a "degeneration" in the Mass. This is an orthodox Catholic discussion forum. People whose thinking is so twisted as to consider the Mass "degenerate" or an "abomination" need to be banned from this forum. The Mass (any rite) is the perfect sacrifice of Calvary. No rite is better or more efficacious than any other.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

robert...

i sympathize with you, i really do, and i dont want you to leave the forum, but i cant tell you how wrong you are.

you see, the mass is in effect the same as it always has been, with a few minor changes. your use of the popular schismatic produced rumor that church attendence is decreasing is an all out farce, because the number and the percentage of catholics worldwide has increased larger than it ever has been in history in the last ten years.

you also claim to support the vatican and the pope, and yet you claim that theres some neo liberal movement to destroy the church preying on the vatican. that sounds pretty anti vatican to me. let me ask you something... if there is a liberal movement to destroy the church, why dont you think that the Holy Spirit is stronger than the movement? have you lost faith in God to ensure the sanctity of his church?

Why has the world fallen to evil in the last 40 years? let me tell you why: media and the destruction of parenting. nothing in the vatican II ever produced the evil in the world today. parents, from the baby boomers, dont know how to raise their children. as a result, they plunk their kids down in front of the TV and let them get zapped by the wonderful teaching rays. did you know that by age 15 most children have seen 2000 deaths on telivision, along with 3000 seens that suggest or show sexual activity? we've also seen an expansion of the idea of existentialism and moral relativism... both of which theories reemerged in the 40's and 50's under the tridentine mass. as for church attendence, per capita just prior to the 1960s the world had the lowest percentage of catholics in recorded modern history. whither goes church attendence then? to churches with vernacular language and the religious leader not shunning the members of the church.

why are there liberals in the church today? there have always been liberals in the church, thats the way life is. the question is, why are some of the conservatives not helping to fight the liberalism and instead are turning their backs on the problem to hide out in SSPX masses? same thing goes for people not taking the time to learn the scriptures... DONT RUN FROM THE PROBLEM FOR GODS SAKE, HELP US TO FIGHT IT TOO.

novus ordos DO believe in purgatory, and we DO believe in the transformation of the Eucharist. there are 'catholics' who dont believe this, but that certainly has nothing to do with the V II council. those are people who are violating the laws of the catholic church. your statistics for the number of catholics who dont believe in the transformation are VERY wrong though. in fact, they are so far off from all of the studies ive seen that they seem very very fabricated... at least insomuch that the person took a very bad sample population.

Gays in the church eh? did you know that the percentage of gay priests in the church is lower than any other church in the world? bet not. that doesnt change the fact that its still a problem... and we're working on it. we sure could use some help though, i mean there are some pretty good helpers sitting on their hands not understanding their mass every week... seems they could be doing something about this other than running and hiding.

im done for now, i'll bring up more in a bit

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 07, 2003.

I forgot to mention, Robert ... More than 1/2 year ago, three of the five Schismatic/Heretics were banned from this forum -- and a well-deserved penalty it was. Unfortunately, one of the former moderators went soft and lifted the ban -- unjustifiably, of course. What is the result of that grave error? One of the people who should have remained banned has been in contact with you by private e-mail, filling your head full of false and dangerous information and suggestions.

Please pray for the help of your guardian angel, your patron saints, St. Michael the archangel, and our Blessed Mother ... to help yourself to be freed of the evil influences that have so recently come upon you.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

So, I understand that this is a "Catholic" forum. He isn't allowed to ask questions? He isn't allowed to stae his opinion?

It speaks that there is reason to fear questioning the Church, if people are banned from asking questions. That will certainly not further your argument, John.

I don't think anyone said the Mass was "degenerate", only that it is in the process of degerating... totally different things.

Furthermore, I think it is pitiful that five people would would be asked to leave this forum because they question things. What a great example to set, Jesus would be proud I'm sure. :rolleyes:

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 07, 2003.

It speaks badly of the Church, that there is reason to fear questioning the Church, if people are banned for asking questions. That will certainly not further your argument, John.

Is what I meant to say. Thanks.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 07, 2003.

Hi John,

I did not call the New Mass an abomination or degeneration.

What I said was that today’s liturgy was inferior to a certain degree to the liturgy according to the missal of 1962. I believe that Christ is present at the Holy Eucharist whenever I receive Him at my local parish Mass. I attend the new Mass, just like most Catholics here.

I have never been to a Traditional Latin Mass in my whole life as of yet. But have recently seen and read the liturgy according to the 1962 missal and I think it is absolutely beautiful and far richer then the new Mass I go to (like night and day). My 74 year-old mom is always nostalgic whenever she speaks to me about how beautiful the old Mass was when she used to attend years ago.

I’ve checked this matter out thoroughly with regards to disobedience to the Pope and schism. If I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion. That is my only motive. So there is no schism in the least wherever I attend one.

In fact, I have recently read many quotes by the likes of Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger, and many modern-day Bishops all endorsing the Traditional Latin Mass and praising it very highly. One called it a “precious jewel” of our Church.

What a privilege and honor it will be to know that many of the saints have celebrated a Mass of the exact same rite without a break throughout Western Christendom for over 15 centuries that I will be attending for the first time soon. Can’t wait!

-- Robert (Robertp234@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Dear Robert,

I had to stop in to tell you how much I'm enjoying your posts! In a forum where some folks coldly regard Our Lady, and her requests are brushed aside as "something we don't have to believe in", it sure is refreshing to read so many beautiful and gravely important words about our Dear Mother. I'm not going to be posting/reading this forum much longer. I will stop in to see if you've posted more installments to this wonderful series on Our Lady and Holy Mother Church. Keep up the good work, and God bless you!

The only thing I've ever seen John utter in this forum which he is right about is that we're leaving (at least Jake and I are). As Catholics we realize we are endangering our Faith by allowing ourselves to be exposed to the filth which spews forth from the muddled minds of people like him who dares to call themselves "orthodox" (whatever that means).

If you should decide to stick around, you'll notice how John, et al. will gleefully attach labels to you such as "heretic" and/or "schismatic". If you care to ask how they arrives at such judgments, they'll ignore you, yet continue to bash you and your love for Holy Mother Church whenever possible. They will laugh at your expense and encourage others to do so. If you try to give advice to a new poster, John will warn the poster not to listen to you because you are a "heretic under the influence of the Evil One." He will do this regardless of the subject matter. He won't speak directly to you, either; only "about" you. Emerald, as you may know, assists at a Traditional Mass which has the "permission" of his local Bishop (not that any such "permission" is necessary, of course). When Emerald told the forum that that's where he'd be going to Mass from now on, he was cast off by John as a heretic. To date, John (and his toadies) have refused to answer Emerald for this ridiculous charge of heresy, yet the name-calling and utter disregard for the Eighth Commandment continues. So now, according to this "orthodox" Catholic, anyone who attends a Traditional Mass, regardless that it may have a Bishop's approval, is a heretic. This same man is permitted to give out "catholic" advice to unsuspecting strangers. Truly frightening. He's a little, hate-filled man. He's a blind leader of the blind who has lost it. Pray for him. Pray for the good folks who have been subjected to his errors, his deplorable behavior, and have been affected by them. Catholics have a responsibility to behave as Catholics both in and out of Church, and I fear that John's various words and actions on this forum might have scandalized people who come here seeking advice or just wanting to know more about why Catholics believe the things we believe. Finally and perhaps most sickening of all, his garbage almost always opens with "J.M.J." It's blasphemy against the Holy Family to call upon Them and then behave so wickedly.

Should you chose to stay and participate, I advise you to ignore his posts. For several months I did just that. I didn't read anything he had to say. I only know of his charge of Heresy and Schism to Emerald when he or others "piggy-backed" a portion(s) of John's posts. It was only after he entered a thread I was involved in where he congratulated others for engaging in the same self- righteousness with which he is so consummed that I stopped reading anything he had to say.

Approximately one year ago, I was banned from this forum for refering to the new Mass as an "abomination." I made no apologies for it then, and I make no apologies for it now. It *is* truly an abomination when Our Lord's Sacrifice is reduced to a "community meal", where He Himself is cast aside, or shoved into another room, when prayers, doctrines, and lessons from the pulpit are altered so as not to offend Protestant sensitivities, when His children, so puffed with pride, dare approach and receive (what may or may not be) Him on their feet and into their hands by lay-people playing priest (or priestess). Upon my return to the forum, I made it clear that while I *had not* changed my mind about the new Mass - and what I believe it to be - that for the sake of constructive debate, I would find alternate words to express my opinions.

Now I'll be free, at least, to say what is really true regarding the Novus Ordo church and all of the many and grave errors that flowed from Vatican II, and not just say them in a way that doesn't offend liberals too much. Our Lord certainly was never concerned with what He said and did to be "offensive" to the liberals of His day. If more Catholics would follow His Divine example, we'd start to see more signs of hope for Holy Mother Church, wounded as She has been by Churchmen promoting the error, scandal, immorality, perversion, and blasphemy of the new religion and its new mass.

Traditional Roman Catholics have a great deal to be optimistic about. Our chapels are flourishing while the Novus Bogus continues its downward spiral. There are clear and significant signs of hope that just were not there 20 years ago, due mostly to the work of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the Society of St. Pius X. Many young, real priests are being formed in traditional seminaries while the aging propopnents of post-Conciliar nonsense are, by the busloads, leaving their vocations, getting caught (quite literally) with their pants down, shipping out to retirement and the golf course, and ultimately passing before the Judgement Seat.

I close with the following from St. Cyril. I'm at a loss for anything that could possibly be added in this situation:

"Let us hate them who are worthy of hatred, withdraw we from from whom God withdraws. Let us also say unto God with all boldness concerning all heretics, "Do not I hate them, O Lord, who hate Thee?"

-- Regina (Regina712@lycos.com), May 07, 2003.

Thank you Regina!

I have enjoyed your posts very much over the last while and have learned so much from your wisdom and knowledge. I can see that the SSPX and the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter really are doing some great things for the Church (too bad they're taking such a beating these days). Learning about these two groups is encouraging me to possibly join a religious order in the future if I am allowed to... where I won't have to worry about 1) laxity of observation to the Rule; and, 2)the homosexual problem. This is a big one for me. Seminaries are turning into feminaries all over the place. I want to serve my God and others. I do not want to by around a bunch of homosexual men while they're getting their filthy kicks.

Here's a quote I stumbled upon a few days ago that I think you'll like. It's by a priest I admire very much...

"The seminaries and convents of North America and Europe are practically empty or closed, except for those operated by small "tradionalist" orders (like the SSPX and the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter) which follow the "old ways". There are not nearly enough vocations to replace the older priests who are dying or retiring in the "mainstream" Church. And it is widely known that among the men who do enter "mainstream" seminaries that adhere to the post-concillar "reforms", a very large percentage is homosexual. "

Thanks again, Regina. I am so happy I have met people with such fine traditional Catholic morals and principles like you and Jake. You've given me neww hope for the future.

Sincerely,

Robert

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Robert P.

You wrote:
I’ve checked this matter out thoroughly with regards to disobedience to the Pope and schism. If I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion. That is my only motive. So there is no schism in the least wherever I attend one. In fact, I have recently read many quotes by the likes of Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger, and many modern-day Bishops all endorsing the Traditional Latin Mass and praising it very highly. One called it a 'precious jewel' of our Church.

Robert, perhaps you have misunderstood something I've said. I have NEVER criticized the older rite of the Mass (from the Missal approved by Pope St. Pius V). In fact, as I told the Five Schismatics/Heretics more than once, I was an altar boy for hundreds of Masses according to that rite prior to and during Vatican II.

Now, what I have just quoted from you is missing something absolutely necessary. You wrote: "If I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion." You are missing a condition -- an "if" clause -- there. You need to say this: "If I assist at Traditional Latin Mass, the celebration of which is approved by my bishop, I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion."

Do you see what I mean? You must attend only where your bishop or the bishop of a neighboring diocese (in union with the pope) permits the rite to be celebrated. Otherwise -- i.e., if you were to attend an unapproved celebration of Mass (as do four of the five Schismatics/Heretics) -- you would commit a sin of disobedience and, within time, you would almost surely fall (at least "de facto") into schism. Please do not do these things to your immortal soul and to God, who loves you so much.

To avoid any problem, please pay strict attention to this list, and discard any advice the five people have given you:
TOTALLY AVOID (until the pope says otherwise): "SSPX" (Society of St. Pius X), which is schismatic and excommunicated.
TOTALLY AVOID: "SSPV" (Society of St. Pius V), which is schismatic, sedevacantist, and excommunicated. [They reject the validity of all popes who have reigned since the death of Pius XII in 1958.]
RELY ON: Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (good men who left the SSPX)
RELY ON: Society of St. John

Robert, to help you to see that I was not exagerrating in my criticism of the five schismatics/heretics, I need only point out some of the deceptions one can read in this latest message from Regina.

By the way, of the five people, Regina is second-most-dangerous, behind only Ed Richards (a man who has plagiarized articles from a "sedevacantist" site here). The devious Regina is worse than the other three (Isabel, Emerald, and Jake-1), because she was the one that led her own poor husband (Jake-1) into schism. [She played Eve to his Adam, while the Lefebvrite schism played satan to her Eve. The illicit celebrations of Mass were the forbidden fruit that she could not resist. By disobeying, she and her husband were banished from the Eden of the Catholic Church.]

Robert, Regina just told you this:
"If you should decide to stick around, you'll notice how John, et al. will gleefully attach labels to you such as 'heretic' and/or 'schismatic.'"

Naturally, Robert, no one will use these words about you if you don't merit them. I think that you know what is required of you now. Just believe what the Catechism teaches and obey the pope. You can't go wrong.

Robert, you should also ignore the subsequent lies that the treacherous Regina told you (about how we supposedly "ignore[d]" them, "laugh[ed] at their expense," constantly called them "heretic[s] under the influence of the Evil One," wouldn't "speak directly to" them, etc.). The fact is that they have been here around a year, and we paid vast amounts of attention to them, treated them with due respect poured out tens of thousands of words of MULTIPLY REPEATED corrections of EVERY SINGLE ONE of their errors, etc. -- only to have to see three of them ignore the facts and end up calling the newer rite of the Mass an "abomination." (Now she renews this diabolical lie for which she was so properly banned.) At a certain point, it became proper to ignore their continued propaganda and pestering and to warn newcomers that they could not be trusted.

Robert, Regina also told you this:
"Emerald, as you may know, assists at a Traditional Mass which has the 'permission' of his local Bishop (not that any such 'permission' is necessary, of course). When Emerald told the forum that that's where he'd be going to Mass from now on, he was cast off by John as a heretic ... So now, according to this 'orthodox' Catholic, anyone who attends a Traditional Mass, regardless that it may have a Bishop's approval, is a heretic."

Notice, Robert, how Regina plays the temptress (who is in grave danger of her own damnation)? She falsely tells you that you are permitted to attend a Mass that is not authorized by your bishop. She wants you to join her in schism!

Also, she tries to poison your mind against me -- by telling you a bald-faced lie. I NEVER called Emerald a "heretic" for choosing to attend the licitly celebrated "indult Mass" rite. [He later merited that label for a very different reason.] As I told you above, Robert, I have never criticized the older rite of the Mass, for which I was an altar boy. I also told the schismatics, several months ago, that I myself had attended two older-rite Masses in the last five years myself! Obviously, Regina cannot be trusted for anything, Robert. Stand well clear of her ilk. She is a liar to the very marrow of her bones, and she exudes unadulterated hatred. Just read all the nasty things she said about me and others (above) -- things that you yourself, from your short time here, know are not true.

Robert, I hope that you can see that you have gotten yourself onto the edge of a horrible rat's nest, one from which you still have time to extricate yourself. I am not going to suggest that the Moderator delete this entire thread -- because I don't know if you have broken the rules in your long messages (still not read by me). But I am going to ask him to delete the cobra-like venom of Regina's messages, past and future.

God bless you and keep you from all harm.

John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

[Moderator, please delete the above italicized mess, which I will now repost with proper tags. Sorry.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Robert P.

You wrote:
I’ve checked this matter out thoroughly with regards to disobedience to the Pope and schism. If I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion. That is my only motive. So there is no schism in the least wherever I attend one. In fact, I have recently read many quotes by the likes of Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger, and many modern-day Bishops all endorsing the Traditional Latin Mass and praising it very highly. One called it a 'precious jewel' of our Church.

Robert, just in case you have misunderstood something I've said ... I have NEVER criticized the older rite of the Mass (from the Missal approved by Pope St. Pius V). In fact, as I told the Five Schismatics/Heretics more than once, I was an altar boy for hundreds of Masses according to that rite prior to and during Vatican II.

Now, what I have just quoted from you is missing something absolutely necessary. You wrote: "If I assist at a Traditional Latin Mass I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion." You are missing a condition -- an "if" clause -- there. You need to say this: "If I assist at Traditional Latin Mass, the celebration of which is approved by my bishop, I am doing absolutely nothing wrong; as long as the motive is simply the desire to worship my Lord with greater reverence and devotion."

Do you see what I mean? You must attend only where your bishop or the bishop of a neighboring diocese (in union with the pope) permits the rite to be celebrated. Otherwise -- i.e., if you were to attend an unapproved celebration of Mass (as do four of the five Schismatics/Heretics) -- you would commit a sin of disobedience and, within time, you would almost surely fall (at least "de facto") into schism. Please do not do these things to your immortal soul and to God, who loves you so much.

To avoid any problem, please pay strict attention to this list, and discard any advice the five people have given you:
TOTALLY AVOID (until the pope says otherwise): "SSPX" (Society of St. Pius X), which is schismatic and excommunicated.
TOTALLY AVOID: "SSPV" (Society of St. Pius V), which is schismatic, sedevacantist, and excommunicated. [They reject the validity of all popes who have reigned since the death of Pius XII in 1958.]
RELY ON: Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (good men who left the SSPX)
RELY ON: Society of St. John

Robert, to help you to see that I was not exagerrating in my criticism of the five schismatics/heretics, I need only point out some of the deceptions one can read in this latest message from Regina.

By the way, of the five people, Regina is second-most-dangerous, behind only Ed Richards (a man who has plagiarized articles from a "sedevacantist" site here). The devious Regina is worse than the other three (Isabel, Emerald, and Jake-1), because she was the one that led her own poor husband (Jake-1) into schism. [She played Eve to his Adam, while the Lefebvrite schism played satan to her Eve. The illicit celebrations of Mass were the forbidden fruit that she could not resist. By disobeying, she and her husband were banished from the Eden of the Catholic Church.]

Robert, Regina just told you this:
"If you should decide to stick around, you'll notice how John, et al. will gleefully attach labels to you such as 'heretic' and/or 'schismatic.'"

Naturally, Robert, no one will use these words about you if you don't merit them. I think that you know what is required of you now. Just believe what the Catechism teaches and obey the pope. You can't go wrong.

Robert, you should also ignore the subsequent lies that the treacherous Regina told you (about how we supposedly "ignore[d]" them, "laugh[ed] at their expense," constantly called them "heretic[s] under the influence of the Evil One," wouldn't "speak directly to" them, etc.). The fact is that they have been here around a year, and we paid vast amounts of attention to them, treated them with due respect poured out tens of thousands of words of MULTIPLY REPEATED corrections of EVERY SINGLE ONE of their errors, etc. -- only to have to see three of them ignore the facts and end up calling the newer rite of the Mass an "abomination." (Now she renews this diabolical lie for which she was so properly banned.) At a certain point, it became proper to ignore their continued propaganda and pestering and to warn newcomers that they could not be trusted.

Robert, Regina also told you this:
"Emerald, as you may know, assists at a Traditional Mass which has the 'permission' of his local Bishop (not that any such 'permission' is necessary, of course). When Emerald told the forum that that's where he'd be going to Mass from now on, he was cast off by John as a heretic ... So now, according to this 'orthodox' Catholic, anyone who attends a Traditional Mass, regardless that it may have a Bishop's approval, is a heretic."

Notice, Robert, how Regina plays the temptress (who is in grave danger of her own damnation)? She falsely tells you that you are permitted to attend a Mass that is not authorized by your bishop. She wants you to join her in schism!

Also, she tries to poison your mind against me -- by telling you a bald-faced lie. I NEVER called Emerald a "heretic" for choosing to attend the licitly celebrated "indult Mass" rite. [He later merited that label for a very different reason.] As I told you above, Robert, I have never criticized the older rite of the Mass, for which I was an altar boy. I also told the schismatics, several months ago, that I myself had attended two older-rite Masses in the last five years myself! Obviously, Regina cannot be trusted for anything, Robert. Stand well clear of her ilk. She is a liar to the very marrow of her bones, and she exudes unadulterated hatred. Just read all the nasty things she said about me and others (above) -- things that you yourself, from your short time here, know are not true.

Robert, I hope that you can see that you have gotten yourself onto the edge of a horrible rat's nest, one from which you still have time to extricate yourself. I am not going to suggest that the Moderator delete this entire thread -- because I don't know if you have broken the rules in your long messages (still not read by me). But I am going to ask him to delete the cobra-like venom of Regina's messages, past and future.

God bless you and keep you from all harm.

John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Robert, I forgot two things ...

(1) I listed four organizations with "TOTALLY AVOID" or "RELY ON" before their names. If you come across any other organization that promotes the older rite, please mention it here at the forum, and we will let you know if can be trusted.

(2) I should have added a line that says "TOTALLY AVOID the nebulous, unnamed, 'de facto schismatic congregations' of the kind to which Jake-1 and others belong. They avoid the stigma attached to SSPX, but they are SSPX-sympathizers. They try to pretend to be parishes, but they cannot qualify for that title, because a parish can be approved only by its local bishop, and these cliques are NOT approved.
Robert, the existence of these things is very pleasing to satan. Please steer clear

JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Hi John,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your concern. I know you mean well by telling me all this and are trying to prevent me from falling into error or making a “mistake”. Trust me, I had the exact same concerns from the moment I started thinking about attending a Trid Mass. I asked myself, “Must the Trad Mass someone assist at absolutely be approved by the local Bishop? If not, is it considered a sinful or schismatic act? What is all this controversy about the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre? Very valid concerns, and I assure you I have thought of each one.

Here are some quotes and information I found:

Many are confused as to the status of the Society of Saint Pius X. The most frequently asked questions are: "Are those who assist at the Masses of the SSPX ex-communicated ?" or " Is the SSPX schismatic?"

The Vatican, in several important documents has declared no. A recent letter stated that ecumenical dialogue with the SSPX will not be held because they are not considered schismatic.

"The situation of the members of this Society [SSPX] is an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course, the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are valid. "

-- Letter from the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity Cardinal Edward Cassidy, President (3 May,1994)

Letter of The Sacred Congregation For The Clergy Under signature of Silvio Cardinal Oddi, President (17 March, 1984)

[In answer to a family attending Mass at an SSPX chapel as to whether such attendance fulfilled her obligation for Sunday Mass,]

"According to the New Code of Canon Law, 'The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic rite.... I hope that settles your doubts."

DECREE OF THE CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH (HOLY OFFICE)

Under signature of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect Known as the "Honolulu Decision" (Protocol No. 14428, 4 June, 1993)

In response to an appeal by one of the Honolulu Six against the decree of the Bishop of Honolulu, the Congregation decreed:

"This Congregation has examined carefully all the available documentation and has ascertained that the activities engaged in by the Petitioner ... are not sufficient to constitute the crime of schism. Since [the Petitioner] did not, in fact, commit the crime of schism and thus did not incur the 'latae sententiae' penalty, it is clear that the Decree of the Bishop lacks the precondition on which it is founded. This Congregation, noting all of the above, is obliged to declare null and void the aforesaid Decree of the Ordinary of Honolulu"

LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY Under signature of Edward I. Cardinal Cassidy, President (May 3,1994)

"The situation of the members of this Society [SSPX] is an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course, the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are valid. "

COUNT NERI CAPPONI, D.CN.L. - LATERAN (DOCTOR OF CANON LAW) LL.D. - FLORENCE (DOCTOR OF LAWS) Professor Emeritus of Canon Law at the University of Florence Accredited as an Advocate of the Holy Roman Rota Accredited as an Advocate of the Apostolic Signatura (the Holy See's highest appeals tribunal)

"The fact is that Msgr. Lefebvre simply said: 'I am creating bishops in order that my priestly order can continue. They do not take the place of other bishops. I am not creating a parallel church.' Therefore, this act was not, per se, schismatic."

"Pope John Paul II, in 1986, asked a commission of nine cardinals two questions. Firstly, did Pope Paul VI, or any other competent authority, legally forbid the widespread celebration of the Tridentine Mass in the present day?

The answer given by eight of the cardinals in 1986 was that, no, the Mass of Saint Pius V has never been suppressed. I can say this; I was one of the cardinals."

"There was another question, very interesting. Can any bishop forbid a priest in good standing from celebrating a Tridentine Mass again? The nine cardinals unanimously agreed that no bishop may forbid a Catholic priest from saying the Tridentine Mass. We have not official publication, and I think that the Pope would never establish an official prohibition ... because of the words of Pius V, who said this was a Mass forever."

-- Cardinal Alfons Stickler, Prefect of the Vatican Archives


Me again. To give you and others the benefit of the doubt. I’ve also came across this information too….

Some Difficulties With The SSPX

"While we may attend those Masses offered by the SSPX, as they are indeed part of the Catholic Church, we must add here some of the difficulties which have come up within this group, and caution the reader about them : One former SSPX priest, mentions the following issues as some of his reasons for leaving that group:

"1) An overall "cultish" behavior on the part of some priests in the SSPX. For example tactics of intimidation and fear on the faithful, public denunciations from the pulpit mentioning names and offenses, denying Sacraments to individuals not guilty of public sin, and a rigoristic and Jansenistic attitude. Many of these things have occurred in St. Marys, Kansas. One recent television interview of a former St. Marys' student revealed that he was among a group of students authorized and reportedly paid by the rector of St. Marys to "gang-up" on a student who was considered to be a trouble- -maker, assail him, and shave his head. This was done. This incident, among others, is now being probed by the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.

2) An unhealthy attitude towards women, especially as expressed in various newsletters from the seminary. Some of these letters bring to our attention the need of modest attire, however, in an unusual way, without reference to Mary-like standards of modesty, but rather present Christian modesty in an insulting and degrading manner. Three separate letters or enclosures were devoted to the cause of modesty -- Slacks I, Slacks II , and Slacks III. In Slacks II, reference is made of the woman of the household wearing pants which means one of her sons is living with one of his own! Such statements weaken the credibility of the SSPX, especially since these letters are composed by one who holds a high position in the SSPX.

3) The use of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius as an instrument of editorializing or expressing disdain towards the United States, its history, customs, and way of life. The Spiritual Exercises are formulated to attack sin amid its causes. Its outline starts with the hard truths of eternity, the existence/immortality of the soul, flowing onto death, judgement, hell, General Confession, mercy, and then the placid meditations. Nowhere in its formula is there an outline on attacking one's country, customs or way of life. Sins and the occasions of sin are prevalent everywhere, not just confined to the borders of one particular nation. In the practical application of the Ignatian Exercises, the retreat master helps the retreatant to overcome past vices, improve one's meditation and spiritual life, and strive for sanctity, not to reduce one to despair, or to tear down one's heritage. Patriotism is also a virtue.

There are other issues, some more serious than those listed above, which prudence dictates that I keep private. Suffice it to say, that since the superiors of the SSPX did not wish to look into these issues, the faithful affected by them have brought them to the attention of civil authorities and law enforcement."

The above has been confirmed by many of the member of our E-Mail List, although such attitudes may be more or less evident in different Society churches. Those who assist at SSPX Masses should bare the above issues in mind.

-----

Okay, so there is something to be cautious about here. I admit that. From what this excerpt says, it sounds like there might indeed have been a few priests and/or lay people assisting at Masses offered by the SSPX that did get “cultish” or go off the deep end… Or maybe a few did foster an unhealthy attitude towards woman. If that was happening with the members of the parish of St. Mary’s in Kansas, for example, then that is an unfortunate situation which is not good at all for SSPX’s reputation. I do not know for sure what happened, of course. I wasn’t there. The excerpt I posted does caution (at the end) those assisting at SSPX Masses that they should “bare the above issues in mind”. Which sounds very prudent advice.

That being said. It is clear that if one assists at an SSPX Mass with the sole intention/desire to worship the Lord for reasons of devotion and greater reverence, then that in itself does not constitute an act of schism. Why is it clear? Because the recent quotes that I posted above from numerous top Vatican officials confirm this.

(However, I do admit, John, that there does seem to be some confusion about this matter that isn’t good for SSPX and does need some clearing up.)

So there you go. I have just proved it right here and now to all of you at this forum. These are quotes directly from top Vatican officials proving once and for all that they act in itself of assisting at SSPX Masses (non-Bishop approved) does not excommunicate you from the Church and put you in schism. We wouldn't want to go against these words because then we'd be accusing all of these top Vatican officials of schism themselves by lying and going along with the SSPX.

So I just proved it once and for all straight from the horse's (Vatican’s) mouth. What more can any of you ask for? Are all of you now convinced that Jake and Regina are not in schism? I feel they deserve an apology for being wrongly accused of being schismatics. And that would be the nice thing to do.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

So I just proved it once and for all straight from the horse's (Vatican’s) mouth. What more can any of you ask for? Are all of you now convinced that Jake and Regina are not in schism? I feel they deserve an apology for being wrongly accused of being schismatics. And that would be the nice thing to do.

No, Robert P, you are wrong. You have been badly deceived by relying on SSPX sites and SSPX sympathizers. My gosh, you appear to be brainwashed already. It is truly heart-breaking to me and other orthodox Catholics here.

But please prove me wrong. Go to the "horse's mouth," not to the SSPX's version of what the horse's mouth said. Don't go to the SSPX and other schismatics to get strategically edited and limited quotations from Vatican folks. Instead, go to the official Vatican documents themselves.
For example, here is the decree excommunicating the founder of SSPX and others. It also states: "The priests and faithful are warned not to support the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre, otherwise they shall incur the very grave penalty of excommunication." [That puts the Four Schismatics (Regina and friends) outside the Catholic Church. They do support what Abp. Lefebvre did. Please don't follow in their footsteps, Robert.]
Here is a page with links to four pertinent Vatican documents.
And here is an EWTN article on "Tridentine Mass and Disobedience," in which is quoted the doctrine on papal primacy from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of the First Vatican Council.

Robert, you must not have read my message carefully enough, because you tried to "refute" something that I had not claimed. Here is what I said:
"You must attend only where your bishop or the bishop of a neighboring diocese (in union with the pope) permits the rite to be celebrated. Otherwise -- i.e., if you were to attend an unapproved celebration of Mass ...
-- you would commit a sin of disobedience and, within time, you would almost surely fall (at least "de facto") into schism.
Please do not do these things to your immortal soul and to God, who loves you so much."

Therefore you were wrong to say what you did, for you mischaracterized what I stated.
A person might attend an SSPX Mass innocently at first (due to lack of awareness of the facts) ... then he might attend sinfully [disobedience to the pope] ... then, having fully immersed himself in SSPX, he would enter into schism and be excommunicated. It's a gradual process, one that I don't want to see happening to you. The way to avoid it is to attend licitly celebrated Masses only. Just stick with the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter or the Society of St. John, and you will be fine.

Robert, there will be no apology for Jake-1 and Regina. Believe it or not, they deserve far worse than they have receieved. The fact is that you should never have even had the opportunity to meet them, because they were banned and should never have been unbanned. They are attending illicitly celebrated Masses, thus disobeying the pope [objectively mortal sin by now]. They have aligned their theology, thoughts, and words totally with SSPX -- so they are "de facto" (if not "de iure") in schism -- excommunicated. Whatever you decide to do in your private life of worship, Robert, please do not attempt to replace the departing schismatics/heretics at this forum as a voice of pain-inflicting disruption. That would hurt you and the rest of us.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 07, 2003.

Hey, sorry, I just came back in for a second... forgot my keys and wallet. So to speak.

Robert, seek and you shall find; God will never abandon those who thirst for truth. There may come times when it seems that He withholds His presence from you, but remember the Saints went through the dark night as well... even the Blessed Mother (per Mary Agreda).

You will suffer, including a suffering that affects the intellect; doubt and confusion... a dry martyrdom. Suffering comes in many forms, but however it comes to you, accept it. It will come. It must in order for you and others to be saved; simply get used to the mindset and heartset of I will serve.

You will only understand as deeply as you pray; if you do not pray, understanding will never be granted to you. Prostrate yourself before the hidden God of salvation in the Blessed Sacrament and He will infuse you with immutable truth and an unyeilding drive.

Pray above all else for the salvation of souls; there is no greater act of charity. Put on your armor and prepare yourself for war against ancient and hardened entities, and vow to fight to the death. The ancient enemy is approaching and he offers no quarter, and neither do you.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 07, 2003.

John, I believe there is a lot of confusion about this whole SSPX matter. In my heart of hearts I think there is much more to this than the 1988 Ecclesia Dei document which you and others keep pointing to as “final evidence” for condemning Jake and Regina (and others) of being schismatics

First of all, calling it a sin to set foot at an SSPX Trid Mass simply because someone wants to worship their Lord as reverently as possible does not sound right to me. Think about it…

The SSPX offers people the exact same glorious Trid Mass (same as what an indult Mass offers) with the exact same Blessed Sacraments, and the exact same everything. But indult mass goers are considered non- schismatics and SSPX Mass goers are? C’mon. That does not make sense. I do not see how it could be so gravely sinful or disobedient to the Pope to attend an SSPX Mass if one assists with a pure heart and no bad intentions.

Those quotes I posted above were true. Plus, spokesmen for the Pope have said that it was okay and not schismatic for the faithful to assist at SSPX Masses. Regina has repeatedly pointed this out in the other thread and no one has even bothered to address her on this important rebuttal at all. They just kept pointing to words in the Ecclesia Dei document. Fine. But what of the Vatican spokesmen who spoke on this matter also? Are all these Vatican spokesman - who concluded that it was OK to assist at SSPX Masses - are they all going against the Pope for contradicting that Ecclesia Dei document too? Are they too all liars or schismatics worthy of excommunication for saying this? Do you even know that some Vatican prelates have said that it was okay for the faithful to assist at SSPX Masses? I am sure Regina can provide you with this evidence if you wish. Let’s not be so 100% sure that the Ecclesia Dei document (and one or two others) are the be-all-and-end-all coming out of the Vatican on this whole SSPX affair.

John, you spoke earlier about how certain things “are pleasing to satan”. Well, I think the devil is deliberately clouding this whole matter in an attempt to suppress and (even destroy if possible) the beautiful 1500+ year old treasure of the Traditional Latin Mass that has been handed down to us for generations. I’ll bet he’ll do all he can to make sure this beautiful old Mass keeps failing to gain more popular ground in this ever-devolving state of our Church today. (But hey, that’s just my opinion.)

Robert, there will be no apology for Jake-1 and Regina. Believe it or not, they deserve far worse than they have received.

John, I am so ashamed of these words of yours. Seriously, Jake and Regina (and Emerald, Isabel, and Ed) do not “deserve” anything other than our love and kindness – other than to be treated the same way you or I would want to be treated.

I must say a few harsh words. I will not post much at this forum anymore because I can't stand to see such uncharitable name-calling among it's participants anymore. John, you are a very smart and knowledgeable man whom I have learnt much from in the last few months. I admire you. But remember that we will all one day have to meet our Just Judge and be held accountable for every injurious, uncharitable, and slanderous word ever uttered from our lips to our neighbor. You say that you are right and I am wrong. The Pharisees thought they too were right when they accused the Son of God of blasphemy and accused Him of casting out spirits “in the name of the evil one”. Boy were they ever wrong about all their severe judgement calls and name-calling now, huh? The Pharisees were not enlightened to know the truth that Jesus was truly the Son of God when He was alive; because of their pride.

John, please try and find it in your heart to forgive others who oppose your point of view. Love them and do not slander anyone’s good name EVER by calling them schismatics, or heretics, or “influenced by the evil one”. This truly is a serious offense against God which indeed, as Regina pointed out earlier, does go against the eighth commandment. (I’ll take God's penalty of going to a non-approved Trid Mass to lovingly worship Him any day over that one.)

I could easily be wrong about this whole matter (and everything else I said in this thread) and be “influenced by the evil one” too as you say. But remember that you could be wrong too, John. No person is infallible. The devil or “evil one” might just be misleading you into believing many errors as well (like the authenticity of certain documents coming out of the Vatican these days, the horrible state of our Church and world today, the Consecration of Russia already being done in ‘84, etc).

I promise that I will pray especially hard for you John. I honestly do like you. I hope that you will find it in your heart to pray for all of the “schismatics” and “heretics” that are leaving this forum because they feel unwelcome and unjustly labeled. I am sorry if my comments have been harsh to you. Please forgive me for this unkind behavior on my part. I didn’t mean to be offensive to you or anyone else in my posts here, only helpful. God Bless.



-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 08, 2003.

Dear Robert,

You state: "First of all, calling it a sin to set foot at an SSPX Trid Mass simply because someone wants to worship their Lord as reverently as possible does not sound right to me."

A: Let's not set up straw men here. Obviously no-one is saying that attending a Mass offered by a schismatic sect is sinful BECAUSE people want to worship God. It is sinful IN SPITE OF the fact that people want to worship God, BECAUSE it is direct and willful disobedience to the authority GOD has placed over us. God has not told us to do "what sounds right to me". He has told us to obey the Church. Truth is objective and binding. It is not subjective.

"The SSPX offers people the exact same glorious Trid Mass (same as what an indult Mass offers) with the exact same Blessed Sacraments, and the exact same everything. But indult mass goers are considered non- schismatics and SSPX Mass goers are? C'mon. That does not make sense."

A: It makes perfect sense. "schismatic" is defined as "rejecting the authority of the Pope". SSPX does so. Those who attend approved Latin Masses do not. It's really pretty clear-cut. Again, what "makes sense to me" is not the issue. What is objectively true is the issue, and the Church teaches what is objectively true.

"I do not see how it could be so gravely sinful or disobedient to the Pope to attend an SSPX Mass if one assists with a pure heart and no bad intentions. "

A: Again, "I do not see" is not a reason to disobey the Pope! In fact, "I do not see" is a good reason not to stumble blindly ahead! Robert, you place entirely too much weight on your personal feelings, and far too little weight on the God-given authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. Would it be gravely sinful if I committed adultery "with a pure heart and no bad intentions"?? YES, it would, because how I "feel" about it has nothing to do with the issue of how wrong it is!

"Those quotes I posted above were true. Plus, spokesmen for the Pope have said that it was okay and not schismatic for the faithful to assist at SSPX Masses. Regina has repeatedly pointed this out in the other thread and no one has even bothered to address her on this important rebuttal at all. They just kept pointing to words in the Ecclesia Dei document."

A: So, you are bothered by the fact that orthodox Catholics, in refuting the personal opinions of schismatic groups, only point to official documents of the Church as indications of the official position of the Church, and not to their own personal opinions? Sounds to me like this approach is right on target! Personal opinions by either side of the issue have no authority. Church documents do.

"But what of the Vatican spokesmen who spoke on this matter also? Are all these Vatican spokesman - who concluded that it was OK to assist at SSPX Masses - are they all going against the Pope for contradicting that Ecclesia Dei document too?"

A: YES!!!

"Do you even know that some Vatican prelates have said that it was okay for the faithful to assist at SSPX Masses?"

A: To which of these prelates has God said "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in Heaven"? To which of these prelates has God given the keys to the kingdom? Which of these prelates has God identified as the Rock on whom He would build His Church??

" Well, I think the devil is deliberately clouding this whole matter in an attempt to suppress and (even destroy if possible) the beautiful 1500+ year old treasure of the Traditional Latin Mass that has been handed down to us for generations."

A: Satan has no interest whatsoever in supressing any particlular liturgical form of the Holy Mass, for he knows what SSPX'ers apparently don't know - that every form of the Mass approved by the Church is necessarily of equal validity and sanctity. What Satan also knows is that "a house divided against itself cannot stand". Dissention and division in the Church are his tools. And obedience to the Church is the tool God has given us to counteract the tools of Satan.

"I'll bet he'll do all he can to make sure this beautiful old Mass keeps failing to gain more popular ground in this ever-devolving state of our Church today."

A: Why is it that only those who have cut themselves off from the Church of today think that it is devolving?? Views from outside are often clouded. Those who participate in the Church of today are enriched by that participation, and move steadily toward eternal salvation. Those who enter into schism with the Church always appear filled with anxiety and anger. Wonder why that is so?? Before long you are going to have to face the inevitable - that indults are temporary; that the Latin Mass is a venerable relic of the past; and that God's Church - as it is, not as it was - is the only source of reliable truth.

"please try and find it in your heart to forgive others who oppose your point of view. Love them and do not slander anyone's good name EVER by calling them schismatics, or heretics, or "influenced by the evil one". This truly is a serious offense against God which indeed, as Regina pointed out earlier, does go against the eighth commandment."

A: Having opposing "points of view" does not require forgiveness. However, opposing doctrinal teaching of the Church DOES constitute heresy; and rejecting the authority of the Vicar of Christ DOES constitute schism. Recognizing these serious sins for what they are is not an offense against God. These sins themselves are serious offenses against God, and opposing them in the name of truth is a service to God and to His Holy Church,

"I hope that you will find it in your heart to pray for all of the "schismatics" and "heretics" that are leaving this forum because they feel unwelcome and unjustly labeled."

A: I do pray for those who have been led away from the true faith, whether by fundamentalism, paganism, schism, or any other ungodly movement. Schismatics are as welcome here as anyone else, provided they come here with respect for the purpose and spirit of the forum. But they are not welcome to prosyletize and to attempt to draw faithful Catholics into their downward spiral of disrespect, disobedience, and subversion of God's Church. Such actions will certainly result in their being labeled - accurately, not unjustly.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 08, 2003.

My words: “Spokesmen for the Pope have said that it was okay and not schismatic for the faithful to assist at SSPX Masses.

But what of the Vatican spokesmen who spoke on this matter also? Are all these Vatican spokesman – who concluded that it was OK to assist at SSPX Masses - are they all going against the Pope for contradicting that Ecclesia Dei document too?"

Your clear and confident answer: A: YES!!!

Paul, for your sake I really, really hope you’re right about all this and Jake and other SSPX Mass goers are wrong. I really do. Because if not, YOU, yes YOU, and others just wrongly accused nine or so of the Pope’s spokesmen (high ranking Vatican officials) - and possibly even the Pope himself - of excommunication, schism, and lying about what was said in that document. How am I supposed to believe you on this matter over the words of nine or so top Vatican spokesmen? These top Vatican officials WERE NOT rebuked or excommunicated as of yet by the Pope for saying the words they did about this whole SSPX affair. So by saying “YES!” you are in fact stating your personal opinion on this matter too. I hope you see this. Let's give these Vatican officials the benefit of the doubt for now that they indeed were representing the Pope's words.

The day the Pope himself rebukes and excommunicates these nine or so top level Vatican officials on charges of disobedience, or schism, or whatever... is the day your “personal opinion” will indeed become fact (doubt that will ever happen). Then I certainly will come back here and acknowledge that you were right about this whole SSPX affair and others were wrong. But until that day comes it’s your words against that of nine or so other top Vatican spokesmen who represent the Pope himself. There is no contest as to who’s words faithful SSPX Mass goers like Jake and Regina should trust in more.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 08, 2003.

Dear Robert,

How can you say that these mysterious nine "officials" (who are they anyway??) are "spokesmen for the Pope" when they are saying things that are contrary to the Pope's teaching?? You can find high-ranking Vatican "officials" who believe in ordaining women too. That doesn't make it right!

The only persons SSPX Mass goers place their trust in is themselves. Having rejected the source of genuine authority, they become their own popes, their own magisterium. They alone decide what is right and what is wrong. They alone decide what is best for the Church. Their one criterion for making such far-ranging decisions is what "feels right". The fact that a few high-ranking Vatican schismatics agree with them is really irrelevant, for they would push their own personal views just as vehemently , even if they could not reference a few purpoted "authorities" whose views are as warped as their own.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 08, 2003.

OK let me get this straight, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ is really present on the altar in the Eucharist - but we need some nuclear-bomb like super-miracle to save the human race??

We KNOW FOR SURE that Christ is in the Eucharist and he is the bread of life of our souls. WE DON'T KNOW WITH THE SAME CERTAINTY whether the apparitions in Fatima or Spain are as true and as clear.

Marian apparitions are private revelations - not public, not Gospel, therefore not DOGMA.

You just want to kick back and watch fireworks rather than go out and make some. I don't blame you. Going to war is icky and tough. It scares us to "work out our salvation" rather than hope that someone ELSE will take the heat and pick up the slack.

Besides, aren't you forgetting a little itsy detail? "all the bishops". What's the Pope to do? excommunicate all those who refuse to do the ritual in unison with himself? What if one failed to do "it" or do it correctly (and according to what rubric?)?

Miracles happen. But they don't happen the way you are claiming Mary promised them to. Otherwise, what's the point of the Mass and Eucharist and Catholics getting catechised, trying to be holy etc. if none of our human efforts mean diddly squat and all we have to do is have 4600 bishops say a prayer over "Russia"?

wishful thinking. It's still nice, it comforts us, but its still wishful thinking.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 08, 2003.