My fiancee and I are not Catholic, though our immediate families are. We are going to be having a non-Catholic outdoor wedding with a pagan basis to it (No...not satan worshipping or idol worshipping...just a reverence of nature and the force around us...whether we call it God or not). It turns out that my fiance's grandparents (who are both DIVORCED and REMARRIED...however not annulled I don't think) will not come because it is not a Catholic wedding. My questions are: Is it considered a sin for a Catholic to attend a non-Catholic wedding...even if they are just witnessing and not participating? AND my next question is: Aren't they being hypocritical since they got remarried and still partake of the Eucharist every Sunday?

-- Anonymous (dancingphoenix74@aol.com), May 13, 2003

Answers

Why is it hypocritical in your view? The basis for their decision is that they care for their daughter. Is it important for them to ''witness but not participate'' in a drop-dead- we're pagans type ceremony?

Neither they nor you and your fiance will miss anything, since you aren't participating in any true marriage ceremony either. Animals marry the way you are marrying --every day. It's not a sin for them; they're just animals. You and your fiance are created in the image of God; not in the image of nature and the force around us, whether you call it God or not. What the ''pagan'' ceremony means to God is that you reject Him. Animals can't reject Him; they aren't pagans. Yes, it would be sinful for Catholics to ''participate'' in any marriage ceremony of this kind. No matter what other sins they may have committed already. There's your answer.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2003.

Up.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2003.

OK, I said ''their daughter''. It is really a grand daughter, or-- maybe grandson. Anonymous could be either.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2003.

Hello And Blessed be. I say go for it! if they don`t want to go than they obiously don`t care enought for your love of your future husband. talk it over with them, tell them how you feel if they still refuse than they don`t have to go. maybe you could video tape it so they could still see it. i hope everything workds out for you ok!

~Bright Blessings~

-- Rose Magick (keroplush@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.

pagan rose? or just completely ignorant of catholic doctrine? you condemn the grandparents for not appreciating the love of their grandchild, and yet from the grandparents view, their grandchildren are not appreciating their rejection of Gods grace. grow up, there is ALOT more to marraige than the happy heady feeling that hollywood portrays so often. its not only about love, its about valid marraige based on fundamental values that will allow a relationship to last, even in tough times.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 13, 2003.

Maybe your god, not mine

-- Rose Magick (keroplush@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.

Another Magick proponent. If this is not your God we're speaking of, ''Rose'', why are you browsing the Catholic pages? And how do you know the love in another person's heart? The grandparents may well love anonymous very deeply. A pretend marriage in the park just doesn't fascinate them like it does you or ''anonymous''.

Bright blessings come from GOD.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 13, 2003.

Dear Anonymously, dancing in phoenix . . .

I think the answer to your first question is no it would not be a sin for them to attend. Your marriage will be a legal civil wedding even in the eyes of the Catholic Church. It will not, however, be a valid sacramental wedding, which does not seem to be a concideration to you at this point.

I think that even the Catholic church recognizes that there is a possibility of a sacramental nature to your "pagan" ritual in that if you should for some reason choose to go your separate ways, sometime in the future and then, perchance, want to remarry and join the faith of your parents, the Catholic Church would require you to have this marriage declared null by the marriage tribunal. This would mean that "it was not a marriage made in heaven" or that it was not a sacramental union, but rather just a "contract" or an "agreement" between two people.

In answer to your second question, yes your grandparents should not be partaking of the sacraments without having their previous marriage annulled.

In the meantime . . . Congratulations in a rather nebulous kind of way and it is my wish that your "free spirited" journey with the "forces of nature" may one day land you at the door of your local Parish. It is only then that you and your children, can truly be free and at one with your maker. It might seem a stretch at this point, but I've traveled a similar road and I wouldn't be too quick to count anything out just yet.

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), May 13, 2003.

I am shocked and appalled at the intolerance demonstrated in some of these responses. I was under the assumption that the Catholic God was a benevolent, caring, and all powerful being. Do you really think God is so narrow-minded that he cares about these distinctions some of you are making? God is a glorious and wonderful force that human language could not even begin to describe adequately. I am sure he would not mind if these people attended their grandchild’s ceremony.

Many of these “silly” rules and restrictions were put in place by primitive people many years ago to serve their ends. Inhabitants of our modern world should recognize this and not follow them too strictly. Remember, only a few short years ago racism was accepted and indeed sanctioned in our society. Thankfully we have grown and advanced and now are more tolerant of people from other races. Should we not extend this reasoning to other religions?

-- Shocked (foo@bar.com), June 09, 2003.

Dear Shocked,

I am shocked and appalled at the lack of concern for objective truth demonstrated in the 'tolerance for anything" attitudes of some people. God is too benevolent and caring to be unconcerned about His children being swept away in a flood of untruth, apathy, and unwarranted "tolerance". Is God so "narrow-minded" that He cares what we believe? Well let's see what He had to say on the subject ...

"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:5)

"As you have forsaken Me and served foreign gods in your land, so you will serve strangers in a land that is not yours." (Jeremiah 5:19)

"If anyone, even an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed! " (Gal 1:8-9)

"False prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves". - (2 Pet 2:1)

Does this sound like a message of tolerance for untruth? Hardly! We are to love those who are in bondage to untruth, but hate the untruth which holds them in bondage, and do nothing to create the false impression of acceptance of untruth; for God has said "the truth shall set you free", and "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life".

Racism is not a comparable issue, as there are not objectively "right" and "wrong" races; but there are indeed objectively right and wrong religious beliefs, and no two conflicting beliefs can both be true.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 09, 2003.

Shocked!: ''We have grown and advanced; should we not extend this reasoning to other religions?''

Dear me! I'm shocked!

Shocked: If you pull a stick of bubble gum from your pocket and say, ''The Body of Christ,''

Why must a Catholic ''tolerate'' your dishonesty? Your ''reasoning''--? Speak truth so that no one can be your opponent. Come back when you want to speak truth. You'll be tolerated.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 09, 2003.

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-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 09, 2003.

How disappointing! I had hoped for a more Christian response but alas, it was not to be.

Paul first for you. Not many years ago most members of society would have told you that there are indeed “right” and “wrong” races. As I said, our society has thankfully advanced from this and I strongly believe that the Catholic faith will also stop looking at other religions as “wrong”. You must see that our numbers are dwindling at a dramatic rate. When I attend mass, the vast majority of those in attendance are elderly. If our church is to survive, it must grow and adapt with the changing world around us. I am not suggesting that we change everything we believe in, but that we at least learn to be more tolerant and accepting of other people’s beliefs. My analogy of racism is indeed an appropriate one. Many of us arrogantly look down our noses at other faiths; just as the British looked down at the Indian people during the 1800's. I for one do not think the British are superior to the people of India. I respect your views, but I also respect the views of other faiths. That is not to say that I believe in their message, just that I respect their choice just as I expect them to respect mine.

Now for you Mr. Chavez. Unlike Paul, you are militant and fanatical. The last time I checked we live in a free country and people are free to express their opinions and hold their own beliefs. I am ashamed that you are here representing the Catholic faith in this ridiculous manner; but as I have said you are free to do so. You seem to have a great deal of anger and resentment in your heart; I pray that God will help you relieve yourself of this. Please do not be so quick to jump on someone and ridicule them for having a different view of the world than you do. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think Jesus taught his followers to act that way. Oh and by the way, what do you mean by dishonesty? This makes absolutely no sense to me as my previous posting did not contain any untruths.

Anonymous, while I obviously do not share your spiritual beliefs I do respect your decision to adopt them. I think the majority of Catholics would not have a problem attending a wedding such as yours, especially when it involves close family members. There are those, however, who are mired in a dogma that has been outdated for some years. I do not hold much hope that these people will ever change their view, they are set in their ways and we should respect that. If your grandparents refuse to attend the wedding, accept it and move on.

These forums have been delightful and informative. Although they have given me great joy I will not be returning to have myself shredded by people like Mr. Chavez. I am sure that he will pour a little more of that anger and resentment out of his heart in response to this posting; keep it up sir and you might eventually clear it all from your soul.

-- Disappointed (foo@bar.com), June 10, 2003.

Dear Disappointed,

You claim - "How disappointing! I had hoped for a more Christian response but alas, it was not to be".

A: I must disagree. You were most clearly not hoping for a Christian response. You were hoping for a politically correct response, and you are disappointed precisely because you received a Christian response instead!

You state: "I strongly believe that the Catholic faith will also stop looking at other religions as ³wrong²

A: We are not dealing with fuzzy feelings here. We are dealing with objective truths. The only way the Catholic Church could say that another Church's beliefs are "right" is to say that its own beliefs are "wrong". I respect other people's opinions. I respect other people's feelings. Because feelings and opinions are subjective, and someone else's are just as valid as mine. However, when we are dealing with objective reality, it is ridiculous to expect that someone who knows the truth will consider untruth equally valid. Presumably you know that the earth is round. Will you show equal respect for someone else's sincere belief that the earth is flat?? I'm not talking about showing respect for the person himself; and I'm not talking about respecting his right to believe what he wants to believe. I'm talking about calling his belief what it is - WRONG. People today would like to try to pass off religious beliefs as mere matters of opinion. They are not. They are matters of fact; and one who knows the true facts thereby also knows that ideas which conflict with the objective truth are untrue - WRONG. It is absurd to say that erroneous beliefs have to be seen as equal to correct beliefs.

"You must see that our numbers are dwindling at a dramatic rate"

A: In fact, the number of Catholic worldwide has increased in every century since the first century, in spite of virtually uninterrupted persecution. More than 2.5 million people converted to the One True Church last year alone.

" If our church is to survive, it must grow and adapt with the changing world around us".

A: In fact, if our society is to survive, it must turn away from its current downward spiral of unqualified, ungodly tolerance, and start refusing to tolerate those elements which are dragging it toward inevitable destruction. The truth is available in God's Church, when society is ready to listen.

"My analogy of racism is indeed an appropriate one"

A: No, it is not, because there is no valid basis for making qualitative comparisons between ethnic groups. There are very sound and reliable criteria for judging the objective truth of a factual statement such as a doctrine of the faith. The fact that many have rejected those objective criteria doesn't make them any less valid.

"I respect your views, but I also respect the views of other faiths. That is not to say that I believe in their message, just that I respect their choice just as I expect them to respect mine".

A: I respect the "views" of others, in areas where "views" are appropriate - areas which are open to subjective opinion. But I do not respect the erroneous beliefs of others, which contradict objective reality, even though I do respect the persons who are captive to such untrue beliefs.

"I do not hold much hope that these people will ever change their view, they are set in their ways and we should respect that."

A: Yes, we should, because they are right. Hopefully they never will change their "view" that the truth is worth holding on to.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 10, 2003.