I ran across this article from May 7. I capitalized the questionable sentence. Is he talking about the worship of Mary, or Mary's worship of Christ?

VATICAN CITY, MAY 7, 1997 (VIS) - The Holy Father dedicated today's general audience to the Virgin Mary, and commented on the words that Jesus spoke from the Cross to St. John: "'Behold your mother', ... with which he reveals to the Blessed Virgin the pinnacle of her motherhood."

John Paul II expressed his wish that all might discover in these words of Jesus "the invitation to accept Mary as their mother, responding as true children to her motherly love."

At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP IN THE ECCLESIAL COMMUNITY ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ."

"The words 'Behold your mother'," continued the Holy Father, "express Jesus's intention to awaken in his disciples an attitude of love and trust toward Mary, leading them to recognize in her their mother, the mother of all believers. In the Blessed Virgin's school, the disciples learn, as John does, to know the Lord deeply" and to love him.

John Paul II underlined that "the history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the path that leads to Christ, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection."

The Pope remarked that when the Gospel says that St. John welcomed Mary into his house, this "seems to show his initiative, full of respect and love, ... to live the spiritual life in communion with her."

He concluded by asking all Christians "to make room (for Mary) in their daily lives, acknowledging her providential role in the path of salvation."

In his greetings in different languages at the end of the audience, the Holy Father reminded the Slovak pilgrims that tomorrow is the liturgical solemnity of the Ascension of the Lord: "The eternal Son of God, who lived for 33 years on Earth to be our Master and Redeemer, went up to heaven to prepare a place for us." AG/MARY/... VIS 970507 (350)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 15, 2003

Answers

Jmj
Don't worry, Gail. The Holy Father did not make a verbal slip!
Given our present-day meaning and connotation of the English word, "worship," it is impossible to speak of a "worship" of Mary, but only of a "veneration for" or "devotion to" her. Unfortunately, the Vatican used to employ [at least I hope that he/she is now gone] a person who did a poor job of translating Latin and Italian into English. This is the second time I have come across a mistranslation of a word as "worship" (related to Mary). The proper idea is well expressed in a later paragraph of the 1997 article that you quoted:
"John Paul II underlined that 'the history of Christian piety teaches that Mary is the path that leads to Christ, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection.'"

When I saw that your quotation was from a 1997 papal audience, I was worried that I was not going to be able to prove what I have just said. I didn't think that the official text would be online at the Vatican's Internet site. I was very happy to be proved wrong. Believe it or not, the texts of all papal audience statements from 1997 to the present are online, but none earlier than 1997! By looking at the official text below, Gail, you will be able to see that the quotations in the article that you copied above were unofficial and inaccurate.

"General Audience
Wednesday 7 May 1997
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
In our catechesis on the spiritual motherhood of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we have seen that Jesus, on Calvary, entrusted Mary to the Apostle John to be the Mother of all his disciples. Jesus' words - 'Behold, your Mother!' (Jn 19:27) - help us to see that the Church's devotion to Mary is based on the Lord's own will that all his followers should share his filial love for his Mother. As the history of Christian piety makes clear, Mary is the way which leads to Christ. The veneration of Mary increases and perfects our closeness to her Son, our Savior and Lord. It is significant that Jesus entrusted Mary to his disciples at the hour of his death on the Cross, at the supreme moment of his redemptive mission. Like Saint John, the Beloved Disciple, may all Christians receive Mary into their own homes (cf. Jn 19:27), sharing with her the concerns and events of their lives. Thus they will appreciate ever more fully her role as example and guide along the way of salvation in Christ.
I extend a warm welcome to all the English-speaking visitors, especially the pilgrims from England, Indonesia, Japan and the United States. Upon you and your families I cordially invoke the joy and peace of Jesus Christ our Savior."

The above was copied from http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/document s/hf_jp-ii_aud_07051997_en.html

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

Thank you SO MUCH, John. I knew there had to be a plausible explanation. I stumbled across that article quite by accident in a Messiac Jewish group who cross-links to a Baptist Fundamentalist group. I was able to find the quote on cin.org and that really concerned me, because they had the same quote.

Thanks a bunch!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 15, 2003.

Gail,

Now you can go back and correct those Baptists and Messianics! (And cin, too!) ;)

Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), May 15, 2003.

I believe Mary was chosen for a reason. I believe she is the most important female in our religion.

But for other things , I still say: Barooh ata Yahweh eloheinu melehh ha olam,. baruch ata Yeshooa bar Yosef ben elohim.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 15, 2003.

Jmj

Elpidio, how many times do we have to ask you to stop saying that St. Joseph is the biological father of Jesus? Now you try to fool people by saying it in Hebrew. Do you think that Eugene and I can't figure this out?

Stop insulting God (and us). You wrote: "I believe [Mary] is the most important female in our religion."
Don't pretend -- by using the word "our" -- that we share a religion. The people you are addressing on this forum are Catholics. They are Christians.
You left the Catholic Church.
You left Christianity.
You do not believe that Jesus is divine, the Son of God the Father -- one of the key elements of the Christian religion.

You are gradually becoming a more and more obnoxious liar, Elpidio. Please stop trying to deceive people -- or leave this forum.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.

Elpidio, you have blasphemed the name of the Lord, if indeed your language above declares Joseph to be the biological father of Jesus! You have come on this forum masquerading as a Christian, when in fact, you are not.

Since you have chosen heresy as your "journey of faith," do yourself a favor and at least stop trying to pull others after you, lest you find yourself sharing the fate of Judas. I don't say this with glee, but with sorrow.

Sincerely,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 16, 2003.

!Hay!?Elpidio como puedes creer estas cozas?

When Jesus was in the temple doing his Father's business and the priest guy identifies Jesus as the son of Joseph and Mary, it seemed rather obvious that the priest guy was confused. Come on, Jesus was teaching them and not the other way around.

? Si estas sierto que Jesus no es hijo de Dios, entonces como puedes tu creer en todo lo que es hacer Christiano? Para mi, sabiendo que Jesus no es Dios es creer que todo en la religion es una mentira. Nuestro Dios tuvo que mandar ha Su Hijo. ? Como puede mandar un hombre? Ha si creen los Testigos de Jehova y decimos que ellos no son Christianos.

Pardon my dialect...a life time of english and spanish corruption.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.

Elpidio-

Cuando un padre manda un servio/esclavo para ser sacrificio, no le duele mas como cuando manda ha su unico hijo. Entonce, igualmente cuando El Padre manda ha su unico Hijo para ser sacrificio de todo el mundo es porque en verdad El Padre nos da mucho amor. Did Joseph give his only begotten son? This notion just doesn't ring right.

rod. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Gail.

Elpidio's words (mostly Hebrew, though "bar" is Aramaic) were:
"Baruch Atah, Yahweh Eloheinu, Melech Ha-Olam. Baruch atah, Yeshua, bar Yosef ben Elohim."
These words mean:
"Blessed are You, Yahweh our God, King of the Universe. Blessed are you, Jesus, the son of Joseph the son of God."
On other threads, he has made it painfully plain that he thinks that Jesus and his (allegedly biological) brothers and sisters were fathered naturally by Joseph.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.

We can't get away with insulting the Mother of the King. There will be a price for it.

Mary As Seen by Orthodox, Protestants, and Catholics

Round Table Reflects on "Mary and the Churches"

ROME, MAY 15, 2003 (Zenit.org).- The Virgin Mary has become more of a link between the Christian Churches than a point of departure, a fact that became the subject of a round table discussion in the Pontifical Marianum Faculty in Rome.

Though Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants believe in Mary, there are differences in devotion. These differences were highlighted at a round table May 14, on "Mary and the Churches," organized by the chair "Woman and Christianity," of the Pontifical "Marianum" Faculty in Rome.

Vladimir Zelinski, member of the Russian Orthodox Church and professor at the University of Florence, referred to Mary as "the only being who is between the created and the uncreated." For the Russian Orthodox, "every prayer to God is also a prayer to Mary," he said.

For Orthodoxy, "Mary is omnipresent in prayer, the liturgy, iconography and above all in the Eucharist: she is always next to her Son," he added.

Giancarlo Bruni, professor of ecumenical Theology of the Pontifical Marianum Faculty, explained that the manifestations of Catholics' relation to Mary varies according to geography and sensibilities.

Although he acknowledged that in the past there were excesses, today "we witness a Mariology of normality: Mary is accepted within the Judeo-Christian experience, which includes the call from on High."

For the Catholic representative, "Mary is the being in whom the Father, through the Son, sole Mediator, continues to console and give grace."

Protestant Pastor Fulvio Ferrario said that in Protestantism, "Mary is important to the degree that she helps to understand better the central character of Jesus Christ, sole Mediator."

Ferrario, a professor at the Waldensian Faculty of Theology (Protestant) said "the fathers of the Reformation, from Luther to Zwingli, wrote many pages on the Virgin Mary, always in a Christological context, namely, so long as the treatise on Mary had some meaning related to Jesus Christ."

"In the Reformation, we accepted the virginity of Mary in the birth of Christ and we consider those called Jesus' brothers as his cousins," he clarified.

"We pray with Mary, as Mary, but not to Mary," Ferrario explained, stressing that for followers of the Reformation there are no mediators between God and humanity, only Jesus Christ.

Cettina Militello, who heads the Chair "Woman and Christianity," stressed the need to "give more space to Mary in the framework of the Chair dedicated to study in-depth the relation between woman and Christianity."

-- Louisa (sweetlou@central.com), May 17, 2003.

It is more than obvious, through the study of the Word of God, that the Marian dogmas are antichrist.

Mary, being believed by the false Roman Cathoic cult, to be "sinless", thereby interrupts the "seed of Abraham", and thus "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is denyed! That old serpent the devil is crafty, but the true Spirit filled beleiver, through prayer, will know the Truth and be set free.

The bible clearly states it Rom 8:3

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

How then could Jesus be made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" if Mary herself was sinless? Herein lies the "doctrine of demons" as is being offered by Satan, through the Roman Catholic cult.

God has given us warning and a litmus test so that the "elect" could not believe the lie. That test is found in 2 John verse 7 (as well as 1 John 4:3)

"For many deceivers are intered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

The Marian dogmas are Satan's crowing achrivement. He has once again said in his heart, "I will be like the Most High". And has in fact, crowned Mary "Queen of Heaven", the same false god that he had the children of Israel worshipping in Jer 44:17-25. There is truly "nothing new under the sun".

To all followers of this false antichrist cult, I say:

"Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins"

In Him (the coming KING!),

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 20, 2003.

Your statement, Jay:

''It is more than obvious, through the study of the Word of God, that the Marian dogmas are antichrist.''

Wouldn't it be proper to say, from this vantage point, that your ''study of the word of God'' has been a total failure? I think THAT'S more than obvious. You've been studying for nothing.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.

"Mary, being believed by the false Roman Catholic cult"

Cult? Gee, I always accepted Protestants as fellow Christians, albeit practicing an incomplete form of Christianity. But you say they are simply offshoots of a false cult. I guess you should know. That would make you a member of such a secondhand false cult - hardly a reliable source of truth. Incidentally, your Bible refers to this "cult" as "the Church of the Living God".

"to be "sinless", thereby interrupts the "seed of Abraham", and thus "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" is denyed!"

Let me get this straight - if Mary is sinless, Christ didn't have flesh??? Sorry, I don't grasp the logic.

"That old serpent the devil is crafty, but the true Spirit filled beleiver, through prayer, will know the Truth and be set free. "

Right! The Bible tells us the truth will set us free. It also tells us where we will find that truth - in the Church of the Living God, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Are you suggesting that a tradition of 30,000 conflicting manmade sects can be a source of truth?? Truth does not conflict with itself.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" How then could Jesus be made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" if Mary herself was sinless?"

Because Mary herself was in the likeness of sinful flesh, and the offspring receives the nature of the parent. Jesus was God because His Father was God. Jesus was human because His mother was human. Jesus was "in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet sinless" because His mother was "in the liukeness of sinful flesh, yet sinless". If Mary had been a sinner, Jesus would not have been in the "likeness" of sinful flesh, but in the actuality of sinful flesh, which would have been incompatible with His divine nature.

"For many deceivers are intered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Indeed those who deny that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh are deceivers. Contrast this with the Holy Catholic Church, through which the world knows that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. What you know about Jesus Christ - I repeat, what you know, not everything you think - came to you from the Catholic Church, which was the sole repository of the truth of Jesus Christ for 1,000 years after his death, and remains today the sole repository of the fullness of that truth.

"The Marian dogmas are Satan's crowing achrivement. He has once again said in his heart, "I will be like the Most High"

A curious criticism, given that Mary is human, and therefore nothing like the Most High. She is the handmaid of the Lord, not His equal. Catholics know this. The Catholic Church teaches this. So why do anti-Catholic bigots have such a difficult time with it??

"Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins"

In case you haven't noticed, a group of people followed that advice 450 years ago, and it has led to nothing but confusion, conflict, contradiction, and doctrinal chaos. Jesus said His Church would be ONE, even as He and His Father are ONE. Such unity can be found only in the Church He founded - the Holy Catholic Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 20, 2003.

Wow, Jay, you really don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The scripture you quote "Jesus came in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh" does not suggest to you that Christ was sinful, does it? I hope not! No, Christ APPEARED AS A MAN (that is what is meant by likeness) but was in actuality God in human flesh, which is the actual meaning of the text. Christ received his humanity from Mary, yes, WITHOUT the stain of sin.

Secondly, Adam and Eve were born WITHOUT sin, remember? God simply gave Mary a special grace, which is revealed in Luke, when the Angel says to her, "Hail Mary, full of grace," or "highly favored one." Look up your Strong's. She was given Charitoos (sp?), a special grace to carry out the monumental task of carrying the God of the universe in her womb. She was not sinless by her own merits as Christ was, but was given a special gift of grace to remain sinless! (Catholic Catechism)

We confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh at every single mass in every single parish in all parts of the globe every mass. You are so off base it would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

Do you know what "Slander" is, Jay Gentile? Perhaps you need to study what the Church really believes before name-calling. Do you realize, Jay, that if you are wrong, and the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded (which, of course it is), that you are calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan! Ummm, ever hear of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps what you said was in ignorance (I hope so).

Respectfully,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 20, 2003.

Man-- To be frank as things stand now; my best advice to Jay would be:

Throw away your Bible before it leads you to damnation.

After you've converted to the true faith of the apostles, and become a Catholic, you will have the Bible restored to you. With the proper interpretation; given us by the Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2003.

I hear ya Romanists. "Ye worship, ye know not what".

Mary, as you worship her is a "god of man's own devises". She has been given all of the attributes of God. This, in a word, is blasphemy !

According to your own pope's prayers about Mary:

* She reigns in paradise, whose mighty name causes heaven to rejoice and hell to tremble. (sounds like God to me) * From that throne of Mercy, where thou sittest as Queen, O Mary, turn down thy pitiful eyes upon us. ( God again) * Keep back the arm of justice of thy indignant Son. (blasphemy!) * Make us worthy of the promises of Christ (there is none righteous!) * Receive, O Mary, on the top of Golgotha, the last drop of that DIVINE BLOOD! (wow, I thought for sure that God the Father did that!) * To thee we lift up our hands, crying for mercy. (1 Tim 2:8) is referring to praying to GOD! * O Mary, what does it cost thee to save us (wow, more blasphemy) * Thou Mary, extendest THY DOMINION as far as the heavens expand, the earth and ALL THE CREATURES THAT PEOPLE IT are subject to THEE ! (Wow, now that one I know is supposed to be GOD! * Thy power even reaches hell, and thou ALONE, O MARY, cansts receive us from the devil's grasp! WOW! Blasphemy at its best! * Thy divine child we behold on thy knees (no HE IS A LION!) * To you O Mary, are known ALL THE NEEDS of YOUR PEOPLE, and of the whold church (another attribute of ONLY GOD!) * Mother of TRUTH and SEAT OF WISDOM, dissipate the clouds of error which darken our minds (now she is also the Holy Spirit!) * O Mary, stir up and confirm in the hearts of those that govern the nations a clear notion of their responsiblity (God again) * Hail O Mary, Mother of those who wander here below, you are our LIFE, our sweetness, and our HOPE (all attributes of JESUS CHRIST!) * O mary, use us as you wish to accomplish YOUR desings (will) upon the world. (God's will? no, Mary's WILL now!) * Impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms. (1 Peter 5:7 "Casting ALL your CARE UPON HIM, for HE careth for you" not MARY ! * After your assumption into heaven, God crowned you Queen of the Universe (did He really? show me where that proceeded out of the mouth of God!) * O Crystal Fountain of Faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths. (again, now she is the Holy Spirit!) * O Most Sweet Mother, above all, obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your THRONE that hymn which today is sung on earth around YOUR ALTARS . You are all beautiful, O Mary! YOU are the GLORY, you are the JOY, you are the honour of our people. (Total blasphemy!)

God says in Isa 42:8

" I AM the Lord: that is my name: AND MY GLORY WILL I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, NEITHER MY PRAISE TO GRAVEN IMAGES"

What the R.C. church is saying is that God DID give His glory to another. Making void the WORD of GOD, "with your traditions" !

What the Roman Cath. cult has done, is all of the above! And just as the worship of the QUENN OF HEAVEN was worshipped in Jer. chpt 7 and 44, "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN, and to pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke me to anger."

So it is today. For there is truly "Nothing new under the sun"

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PRODEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD"

Where does it say in God's Holy WORD, that Mary is have all of the attributes of God Almighty and to be worshipped? Where does it say ANYTHING about the Queen of Heaven? other than in Jer. 7,44 ??

You (the Roman Cath cult) are in total denial and violation of the WORD OF GOD and are in utter blasphemy. But can you (R.C.c.) see it? Or are you (R.C.c.) BLIND to it? "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch"

II Thes 2:10-11 says "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, they they might be saved."

What is this "truth" that is mentioned that they did not love? It is the WORD OF GOD! Jesus said, while praying to the Holy Father (not an old man in the Vatican!) John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: thy WORD is TRUTH"

So, the TRUTH, that they "received not the love of", "that they might be saved" is the WORD of GOD!

The Bereans, in Acts 17:11 were "more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO"

Would those of Berea believe the LIES of the Marian Dogmas??

NO! they would say, "get thee behind me Satan" !!!!

You people need to stop blindly believing the words of men, and believe the WORDS OF GOD! Man does not live by his own bread!

Jesus said of the Pharisess, "In vain they do worship me, making for doctrines the commandments of men". This is EXACTLY where the R. C. cult is today!

But worse than that, it has believed the LIE of Satan, as Satan has again sought to lift up the creature rather than the CREATOR who is blessed for ever! and he has said again

I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH !

Fatima was the daughter of Muhammed. The Islamic people consider it a sign that the "virgin" chose to reveal herself at Fatima, because they consider Fatima as the second holies women in paradise next to Mary. The 5th dogma of Mary "Co-Redemptrix" is being prepared now! Satan has almost completed his LIES! They will believe a LIE! And the false Mary apparitions (lying wonders of Satan) will increase!

Come out of her my people!

"Thy WORD is TRUTH" Go to the WORD, and ONLY THE WORD!!

SOLA SCRIPTURA ! Don't beleive the LIE!!!!!!!!!!

In Christ JEsus (Ye MUST Be BORN AGAIN!)

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 21, 2003.

''This, in a word, is blasphemy !''

Jay-- Every time you parse the words in holy scripture, you fall into a new blasphemy. Mary is not worshipped; no matter how ignorantly you imagine it. Mary hasn't a SINGLE ''attribute'' equal or even near to God. God has NO attributes. Attributes are for you & me. God has infinite PERFECTIONS; so bone up.

If the following bothers you: Mother of TRUTH and SEAT OF WISDOM, dissipate the clouds of error which darken our minds (now she is also the Holy Spirit!) * O Mary, stir up and confirm in the hearts of those that govern the nations a clear notion of their responsiblity (God again) * Hail O Mary, Mother of those who wander here below, you are our LIFE, our sweetness, and our HOPE (all attributes of JESUS CHRIST!) *

It's because you have only hatred for Catholics, not understanding. Mary definitely prays for us, her children. She even prays for heretics like yourself. She is the ONLY Mother of Truth --He is Christ; she's Christ's mother. You blaspheme against Christ Our Lord, when you dispute her motherhood. Mary isn't the Holy Spirit. But she was FILLED with the Holy Spirit, you can see it in the Bible. She is FULL OF GRACE; a fact you're anxious to deny, and again blaspheme against the power of God to bestow grace.

God bestows the same sanctifying grace on the Holy Catholic Church as well. That means on me; and on other faithful Catholics. How about you, Jay?

You are not in the grace of God. This for certain, since you come here to deny the truth and sow error. You call your lies truth. Your father was a liar from the beginning, and he leads you here to molest True Believers.

I gave you the benefit of an answer. You did NOTHING to deserve it. If others care to cast their pearls before swine, then let them write at you. Bigot- -!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2003.

Dear Moderator:,br>I'll hope & pray that after a few hours Mr. Jay Gentle will have read my response to his mucous. He has been picking his protestant nose and dropping his snot in our forum. It will be no test of his faith, but merely a defense of Our Blessed Mother and nothing more. Thereafter, he has faded from our memory, and I ask you to wipe out this entire thread. It is a wasted series, since heretics have used it to stain the glory of Jesus Christ, His Holy Mother, and His Holy Church. It serves no good purpose to give characters like Elpidio and Jay a voice. They are no contibutors to peace or the truth. Thanks.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2003.

Acts 7:54

"When they heard these things (the TRUTH!), they were cut to the heart, and gnashed on him with their teeth."

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 21, 2003.

Yah,yah-- Jay; make yourself Christ. We beleive you. (NOT.) Moderator; give him a lift to the mental ward.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2003.

Concerning John the Baptist, Jesus said, "of them that are born of a women, there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist. Notwithstanding, he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. That includes Mary, she was "born of women"

When a woman cryed out in the croud of how Mary must be something special, Jesus said clealy "nay rather, blessed are they that hear the WORD OF GOD and keep it! (Sola Scriptura)

When the diciples told Jesus that His mother was outside and wanted to see Him, he said, "who is my mother and who are my brothers and sister? "and He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples and said "BEHOLD my mother and my brethren!

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven , the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.'

There have been a number of acounts in the scriptures where Christ could have lifted up Mary as being something special, and He DID NOT.

If she was supposed to be "something" , He would have told us.

No, she is a servant of the Most High God, just like ANYONE that hears the WORDS of GOD (The Scriptures) and does them!

Those of Berea were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the SCRIPTURES daily whether those things were so!

If the Bereans were here today, they would search the scriptures daily, and would conclude that the Marian dogmas are ANTICHRIST!

"Man shall NOT live by bread alone, but by EVER WORD that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF GOD" The SCRIPTURES!

"Search the scriptures, for in them ye think that ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of ME"

In Him, (Thy WORD is TRUTH)

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 21, 2003.

hey eugene, i back you fully on this

Jay, since youre so keen on quoting scripture ive got a bit for you...

you seem to be big on the idea of guessing what you THINK catholics believe and then condemning us for it, so heres a verse for you "JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED"

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 21, 2003.

Truly, Jay, you are full of unbridled hatred towards the Church that Christ founded.

We have said over and over again, WE DO NOT WORSHIP Mary, we honor her as Christ's mother. Insults at Christ's mother have a long long history dating all the way back to the time of the apostles. Afterall, there is no greater insult to a Son, than to insult his Mother!

All Christians who allow God's sanctifying grace to work in their lives are "becoming as He is," i.e., we are and will share in his likeness. I suppose that is blasphemous to you as well! The saints in heaven have reached a perfection in the things of God -- they are "Holy as He is holy". We strive on earth to reach perfection as well, though fall woefully short. Mary was simply given a special gift of grace as I stated, to enable her to play a role NO OTHER HUMAN BEING EVER played. She could not fail . . . God, the Father saw to it that she didn't.

The heavenly saints pray for us because Christ prays for us. They love us because Christ loves us, and they are united to us because He is united to us, and they are united to Him. You see, Jay, the saints share in Christ's kingdom, his suffering and joy. His mother is certainly no exception.

What makes Mary a queen is that her Son is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Yes, we call Mary the "Most Blessed of Women." Can you say that?

Gail

P.S. I have a hard time believing that you are really even a Christian, though I am not the judge of men's hearts. Your fruit, however, is a stench. You are a hatemonger spewing forth vengeance. You came here to pick a fight, nothing else. If you were really concerned with the welfare of our souls, you surely would not come to this forum alienating everyone by your harsh belittlements, insults and slander. We have had some Protestant debates on the forum with respectable Protestants who, at least, were courteous. You, however, do not fall into that camp.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2003.

Sola Scriptura is unscriptural. The Church is scriptural, and gave us the written Word of God. But not so we could distort it.

The Mother of Our Savior was greeted by an archangel; who told her ''The Lord is with thee.'' No other woman is told such a thing in the scriptures. God the Creator spoke of Mary; and ONLY Mary in Gen 3, speaking to the serpent: ''I will put emnity between you and the woman (Mary), between your seed and her seed (Christ) He shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for His heel.'' God was declaring Mary the devil's sworn enemy since the beginning of the world. Here comes this Bible-thumper saying: ''If she was supposed to be "something" , He would have told us.'' GROSS!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2003.

Concerning John the Baptist, Jesus said, "of them that are born of a women, there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist. Notwithstanding, he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. That includes Mary, she was "born of women"

A: What Jesus was saying here is that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet to have come out of the Old Covenant, yet even he was greatly limited, compared to those who live by the power of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant. All John could do was to prophesy what was to come. Jesus said that ANYONE who actually experiences the fullness of what John was merely prophesying about is thereby greater than John. This includes all the Apostles, all the great saints of the Church, and most especially the mother of God.

When a woman cryed out in the croud of how Mary must be something special, Jesus said clealy "nay rather, blessed are they that hear the WORD OF GOD and keep it! (Sola Scriptura)

A: If this was Sola Scriptura, then all we need to hear and keep is the Old Testament, because that was the only Scripture that existed when Jesus said these words. However, note that He did not say "READ the Word of God". He said "HEAR the Word of God", referring not to the Old Testament Scriptures, but to His own teaching, preached first by Himself, and thereafter by His Church. Hence, the Bible tells us "How will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not HEARD? And how will they HEAR without a preacher?". (Romans 10:14) Notice - it is a preacher of the Word which is necessary for people to HEAR and believe - not a book. The next verse reads "And how will there be preachers unless they are sent?". This is the mission of the Church - to go forth and make disciples of all people. The Church, not a book, was the sole means Jesus provided for people to come to the truth of salvation.

The fact that Jesus took this teachable moment to make a point and call people to repentance is hardly a denouncement of Mary. Jesus said that He and the Father are one. The Father send an angel from heaven to address Mary as "Full of Grace", to tell her she alone was most blessed among all women. If that isn't "something special", I can't imagine what would be. Mary is the only human being God ever addressed in this manner. She is the only human being He ever could address in this manner, because sin is an obstacle to grace, and every other human being who ever lived has been a sinner. Therefore, as much grace as any other human being might receive, no other could ever be FULL of grace as Mary was.

"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven , the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

A: As just stated above, it was the will of His Father in heaven that Mary be Full of Grace, and that she be addressed as "Blessed among women". Your resistance to accepting God's will on this important issue is a major obstacle to your being a member of the Lord's family. For how can He be your brother, and His Father your Father, unless His mother is also your mother??

No, she is a servant of the Most High God, just like ANYONE that hears the WORDS of GOD (The Scriptures) and does them!

A: Exactly! It is because she was the most perfect servant of God that she is honored. The Bible tells us "whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant" (Mark 10:43) Mary was servant to us all, by delivering into the world the Savior who won our salvation. For this great service to God and to us, we honor and thank her. There is only one Savior, Our Lord Jesus Christ. And yet it is still true that without Mary's free and perfect acceptance of and submission to God's will, there would be no salvation, for there would be no Savior.

Those of Berea were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the SCRIPTURES daily whether those things were so!

A: This obviously does not refer to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles, for the only Scripture that existed was the Old Testament Scriptures, and those scriptures did not include the teachings of Jesus. What they did find in the Old Testament were the prophecies pertaining to the Messiah, that they might come to realize that Jesus was He, and thereby receive the truth from His teaching and that of His Church.

If the Bereans were here today, they would search the scriptures daily, and would conclude that the Marian dogmas are ANTICHRIST!

A: If they searched the Scriptures daily from the position of Sola Scriptura, separated from the Biblical pillar and foundation of truth, without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as you have done, then they might very well reach such blatantly heretical conclusions as you have reached, for Satan himself can quote scripture, and use it for his own purposes (Matt 4:6). And his satisfaction is complete when he not only leads a soul away from truth, but uses God's own Holy Word as the means of accomplishing it.

"Man shall NOT live by bread alone, but by EVER WORD that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF GOD" The SCRIPTURES!

A: The Scriptures are not EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Obviously Jesus said and did many things which are not recorded in the Bible. (John 21:25) Jesus was and is God; therefore EVERY word Jesus spoke was the Word of God - not just those words which the Apostles mentioned in their correspondence. That's why the Bible tells us that what we learn from the oral tradition of the Church is just as important as what was written down (2 Thessalonians 2:15). The two together constitute the Word of God.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 21, 2003.

May I add, Paul. Your excellent last statement, ''We learn from the oral tradition of the Church; [it] is just as important as what was written down (2 Thessalonians 2:15). The two together constitute the Word of God.

And poor Jay Gent is missing any worthwhile tradition for discerning the true meaning of that Book he idolizes. It makes him prone to misinterpret in his bias & prejudice against the Holy Catholic Church. He buys every error Satan places in his way, and turns the reading of scripture into a pitfall for his soul.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2003.

Excuse me.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2003.

And let's not forget the first miracle of the Lord, the Wedding at Cana. Mary requested a "favor" of her Lord and Son, and he granted her wish. Let's also not forget the 7 sayings from the cross. One of his last dying breaths was the care and honor of his Mom.

It seems from D's post that he is suggesting that Christ dishonored his mother by some of his remarks. Oh, but that cannot be, as it is written: "HONOR thy father AND THY MOTHER."

Maybe she means nothing to you Dave, perhaps she is nothing more than an empty robotic womb to be thrown away and discarded, but I can tell you one thing, I would hate to have to look in the eyes of my savior with mockery on my lips and distain in my heart for "THE Most Blessed of ALL Women!"

Gail

P.S. Paul, good job, as always!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2003.

Well, I congradulate you all for your consistant regurgitation of the Roman papacy's mandates and false teachings. But you will not truly know the TRUTH until you realize that the Word of God (ie the scriptures) on found in the Bible, and ONLY the Bible.

Most of the "traditions" that you relate back to the "early church" are actually pagan rituals that were wrongfully incorporated into the Christian church when Constantine mixed the two together.

Constantine was a murderer, and because of his false beleifs and understandings, would not even get baptized until he was near death, because he thought (as do many confused Romans) that baptism saves a person.

The false god known as Isis and her son Horus were being worshipped by the people of Rome, and in order to attract the multitudes into his "state religion", Constantine transferred the worship of Isis and Horus into the worship of Mary and the baby Jesus.

The most important false docrines of devils that the Romans incorporated, was the baptism of infants, which, as you know (or at least I assume you know, since you claim to know the Word of God) is NOT in the scriptures!

No, the Roman Cath. "cult" hangs its hat on the "traditions" that were handed down, "along with the WORD of GOD", but they (the scriptures) are a witness against you, and there is nothing you can do about it!

You have graven images and have removed the 2nd commandments in order to cover that one up.

You call a "man" father, and , the worst of ALL blasphemy, you call a "man" HOLY FATHER! If Peter heard that , he would have a heart attack!! He wouldn't even let Cornelus kneel down in front of him, can you image him allowing a person to kneel down, AND CALL HIM HOLY FATHER?

The WORD of GOD is a witness against you! You have transgressed the commandments of God by your traditions!

ALL Scripture, according to the WORD (2 Tim 3:16) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect (complete), throughly furnished (to furnish perfectly), unto ALL good works."

You see, the WORD is the place and origin of ALL doctrine. And guess what, MOST of the Roman Catholic "cult's" doctrines are anti-word. They are proved WRONG by the WORD of GOD. Clearly, there is NO scripture to support the LIES that are said about the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven, nor any of the other POWERS that the R.C.c. claims to have been bestowed upon her. It is all fabricated out of the "vanity of the mind", and has been added to little by little over the years by un-regenerated men who,(I Tim 4:1-4) "gave heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; having their consciences seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS created to be received with thankgiving"

It's all in the WORD, all you have to do is read it and KEEP IT!

Please, I beg you! Show me some scripture for all of the false doctrine that you do!! If you can't, then you are sadly in error, sadly, but it is not too late!!! REPENT! turn from man's traditions! and to the LIVING GOD!

Col 2:8 "Beware lest ANY man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!!!

In Him ,

St. jay (of the royal priesthood; saved not by works of righteousness which I have done, but according to HIS MERCY/ By GRACE ONLY, not by works! lest ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 22, 2003.

Jay, you did it again! Scripture twist your way through everything.

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God (of course), and is profitable for doctrine (of course) for instruction in righteousness, (absolutely) so that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto ALL good works." YES, YES, that's exactly right . . . but what's your point? Timothy was referring to the Old Testament scriptures as the New Testament was IN THE PROCESS of being written. Secondly, you would have a point if this scripture said "Scripture is ALL," but it does not say that. Protestants always use this scripture to prove sola scriptura, but they have to invert the wordage to support that notion.

THEN, You have to reckon with this verse, from 1 Tim 3:15 . . . but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH." NOT SCRIPTURE, JAY, THE CHURCH. And please don't tell me its the "mystical church" HOGWASH -- with 30,000 Protestant denominations all claiming to hold the TRUTH contradicting each other at every turn.

Catholics believe we are saved BY GOD'S GRACE, but that a Christian must respond to that grace WITH ACTION! We are judged according to our WORKS, Jay, not by some magical cloak of grace. James says we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE.

You mentioned the Church Fathers in one of your posts as if we as modern Christians should pay their commentaries of no consequence -- THAT IS RIDICULOUS! Why should ANYONE follow any of the so-called teachers of our modern age Protestant churches just because THEY ARE ANOINTED OF GOD! Why shouldn't the earliest church members and their interpretation of doctrine be MUCH MORE SUBSTANTIAL and ACCURATE than today?

I'm out of time and gotta go, but Jay, you cannot take just one scripture in isolation and build doctrine on it . . . that is VERY DANGEROUS! That's why we need the history of the Church and its fathers. They are a wealth of information!

50% of the world's population is illiterate. That precludes them from your gospel, Jay. I don't think that's what Christ had in mind! A gospel of only the elite and literate can benefit from sola scriptura.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2003.

Listen to him:
''ease, I beg you! Show me some scripture for all of the false doctrine that you do!! If you can't, then you are sadly in error,''

Please Jay G; show us in what page of the Holy Bible you love, does Jesus Christ ''regurgitate'' any Bible commandment? Did He ever say, ''Blessed are the Bible- thumpers; they will speak only the truth?''

Your love of Sola Scriptura; is Jesus seen to refer to it? Does any disciple of Jesus prefer the written word to Christ's Church? Show me the verse.

You distort and parse and spin every passage you quote from Holy Scripture. It isn't surprising, because the devil quoted scripture in Jesus Christ's face! He is your father and your ''unholy spirit''------

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

Here is a verse which Jay flings at us:

Col 2:8 "Beware lest ANY man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"

This was Paul, writing to the first Catholics. Saint Paul was a Catholic, and the Collossians also.

In the early 1500's, this part of Paul's passage unfortunately was seen on earth:--''lest ANY man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world.'' It came as the so-called Reformation. Which brought Jay his ''sola scriptura'' and the counterfeit readings of scripture. Vain deceits which Jay embraces.

But here in this forum Jay is exposed at last to Christ's Holy Gospel. The Catholic faith!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

Sorry Gail,

but the scriptures that Paul was talking about were "the scriptures" that he knew, through revelation, that we would have today, and that he knew would become the final Bible as we know it, from Genesis to Revelation!

God's Holy Word, which has been with us since the beginning! Jesus said I am the Truth! And then said to the Holy Father (no not an old man in the Vatican, GOD ALMIGHTY) "Sanctify them through thy Truth, THY WORD IS TRUTH".

You have implyed that the early church had no error, however, in Gal. 1:6, Paul is already dealing with a false gospel that was entering the churches! He also said that ANYONE preaching any other gospel than that which we (meaning Paul) preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The Marian dogmas along with MANY of the false Roman Cath. doctrines would be considered a differant gospel than what Paul preached as well. Since Jesus has already stated that HE is the Truth, and that on THIS ROCK He will build His church (rock being "petra"; bedrock, foundation!: not Peter, petras meaning stone or moveable rock)

He is obviously speaking of Himself in Tim, when it talks about the church being the pillar, foundation of the TRUTH Remember, Line upon LINE, upon LINE, precept upon precept.

THY WORD is TRUTH. Did Jesus lie? No, He did not. So the TRUTH that HE was speaking about is the same TRUTH that PAUL was speaking about in 1 Tim 3:15 ! The TRUTH is the WORD, Jesus is the WORD come in the FLESH!. Threrefore, the foundatin of the church is the WORD, which is Jesus Christ!

Let us not forget the context of Paul's letter. 1 Tim 3:14 says, "These things WRITE I UNTO THEE (the WORD!), hoping to come unto thee shortly: But, if I tarry long, (these things write I unto thee; understood), that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth (Thy WORD is TRUTH)." You see, in CONTEXT, Paul was saying, "I am writing these things to you because, if I tarry (take a while to get to you) you will know by my letter (THE WORD) how to behave thyself in the house of God.

It is interesting that in the very next chapter, Paul warns: 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (speking of the time of Constantine no doubt), some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their consciences seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS.."

Boy, if that isn't the Roman Catholic cult, I don't know what is! Wake up and beleive the WORD!!!

It's not that hard, once you take God at His WORD!

There is no way around it. Sola Scriptura is the ONLY TRUTH!

The Old and New Testaments are the WORD OF GOD. Paul knew that before it happened through revelation, as did the other apostles.

The Catholics gospel is one of works, without the peace and rest that is present when Christ is RECEIVED at the New Birth. This NEW BIRTH is not preached, because most of the so called "fathers" are un- regenerated men that have never been saved!

The entire R.C. religious system is one of works and of the flesh. I know because I WAS Catholic, until I got saved! Now I am a NEW CREATURE in Christ! Behold, old things pass away, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW!

The true gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT preached!

I don't think they even have any understanding of what John Chpt 3 is all about! I am sure that you think that the "water" is referring to baptism don't you?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh (this is the water birth, the woman's "water" breaks and the baby is born into the world) Unless a man is born of "water" and then the Second BIRTH, in the Spirit! Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN!

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 22, 2003.

+

+

+

St. Jay (of the royal priesthood. Saved not by works of righteousness which I have done, but according to His mercy / By GRACE ONLY, not by works! (You claim the credit--! Which I have done,)--??? lest any man should boast. (Like Jay does?)

You would have to be saved despite your works, Jay. They are not true Christian works; you're indisposed to the reception of Christ's truth. You accept the Bible (Which is only a part of Christ's Church, and demands her interpretation to teach us) and you wish to be saved by grace,

But you reject God's grace!

The royal priesthood is our station within Christ's Church as faithful followers of the apostles. No other faith can confer our priesthood, except the Catholic faith. Why? It's given by the Holy Spirit to the Church; in the truth learned of the apostles of Jesus Christ. We are saved by Christ through the Holy Faith.

You have no holy faith. You have heretical belief; not God's revelations. Heresy is not holy; much less a ''royal priesthood''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

right eugene,

now, if you only had some SCRIPTURE to prove any of your "vanity".

The Roman Catholic "cult" truly fulfills the scripure that says, Romans 1:25 "Who changed the TRUTH of God (Thy WORD is TRUTH) into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Mary, praying to the Saints, the Pope, etc) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

You worship and confess your sins to a "priesthood" which has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus!

Hebr. 10:11 cleARLY SAYS:

"And EVERY priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes (over and over and over) the same sacrifices which can NEVER take away sins But this man (Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."

IT IS FINISHED !

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 22, 2003.

See --your malice and rejection of God's grace?

You said,

''You worship and confess your sins to a priesthood which has been fulfilled in Jesus!''

A lie, spoken from a liar's point of view. Catholics don't ''worship'' any priest. Christ conferred His own priesthood on the holy apostles; and they did so on our successive priests in the laying on of hands. Altogether indisputable, it's written in the Bible.

The power of forgiving a Catholic's sin is also conferred by Christ, to his apostles, (John 20:23) and subsequently from them to newer priests. You are denying the Holy Word of God.

Our Saviour's holy words, ''IT IS FINISHED,'' are quite simply His own offering to the Almighty Father; the sacrifice of His own life for the world's salvation.

After His resurrection, He established once for all the primacy of Saint Peter; (John Ch 21) and sent His disciples to all nations as --What? The Holy Catholic Church.

One to whom He promised, ''I am with you all days, even to the end of the world.''----You don't believe that; because you deny the Holy Word of God, Jay G!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

Come On, JG:
Show us in what page of the Holy Bible you love, does Jesus Christ ''regurgitate'' any Bible commandment? Did He ever say, ''Blessed are the Bible- thumpers; they will speak only the truth?'' Your love of Sola Scriptura; does Jesus even once refer to it? Give me the passage! Does any disciple of Jesus prefer the written word to Christ's Church? --Show me the verse.

Your foolish idea-- ''The true gospel of Jesus Christ is NOT preached!''

Prove that from Holy Writ.

You know NOTHING of the ''true gospel of Jesus Christ.'' You believe a corrupted, men's gospel. According to Luther, Henry, Calvin, Knox, and other poor heretics. Not Christ's Gospel.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

eugene,

"ye do err, not knowing the scriptures".

Christ did not confer His priesthood on the Apostles. In Luke 22He confers on them a Kingdom. The same kingdom that any Christian will be a part of , "if" they are born again.

You say that you don't worship the creature more than the Creator, and yet you have falsly created a reigning position for a creature named Mary. There is no scripture for this, yet, out of the hardness of your hearts, you create it any way!

According to the Roman Cath. prayers to Mary, you have given her the powers that only God has, and does not share with anyone.

You have given her the ability to:

* control the hearts of those that rules the nations * to save us! * to impart faith upon us * to quicken the eternal word to our minds

These are only God's attributes. yet over 80% of al Catholic shrines are dedicated to the Queen of Heaven. There is nothing new under the sun. you are worshipping the false Queen of Heaven. Read Jeremiah, chapter 44 ! You are in error!

Your house is built upon sand eugene. you are following man, and not GOD.

Is it any wonder that you again are kindling fire and baking cakes to the Queen of Heaven?

No, the ROCK on whom the church is built is Jesus Christ, and Him alone.

Not a man, not a woman, GOD in the flesh! The WORD !

THY WORD is Truth!

WHen you abandon the false Roman Catholic pagan traditions of devils, and repent and believe the WORD, then you shall be saved.

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 22, 2003.

Jay,

". . . but the scripture Paul was talking about were "the scriptures" that he knew, through revelation, that we would have today, and that he knew would become the final Bible as we know it, from Genesis to Revelation" YOU MUST BE KIDDING? What conjecture?

Does Paul say somewhere, ANYWHERE, that he knows he is writing the future NEW TESTAMENT? I don't think so. In fact, Paul and the other leaders of the Church at that time fully expected the Lord to return in THEIR LIFETIMEs, they surely did not expect that 2,000 years later we would be, or "you" would be parsing and dicing, peacemealing and splicing their words to fit your theology.

The Early Church father's writings are not INSPIRED as scripture, however they certainly do comment on their understanding of scripture, which is of much more value than the heretics we have running around today on the Trinity Broadcast Network, The Word Network, The Church Channel and just about 75% of all Christian programming!!! WHICH programming is being broadcast around the world leading MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ASTRAY after the SO-CALLED Health and Wealth Gospel, Name It and Claim It, and now according to some of YOUR folk, Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland, "We are equal with God."

Did you know that, Jay, WE ARE EQUAL WITH GOD, they say, and if you're not "healthy, wealthy and wise," it is simply because you haven't "realized your divinity." Oh yeah, Jay, and they can "prove it with the Bible."

The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth! Not your church, Jay, not Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, John Avanzini, or the rest!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2003.

Jay, You said, "He is obviously speaking of Himself in Tim, when it talks about the church being the pillar, foundation of the TRUTH Remember, Line upon LINE, upon LINE, precept upon precept." Are you saying JESUS IS THE CHURCH?

Oh man oh man, Jay, you are the epitome of what it means to be a scripture twister!

Well, all I can say is, Thank you Jesus for bringing me out of the confusing, ever-changing heretical world of Protestantism, where there is a new pet doctrine born every minute of every day, forever and ever, amen.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2003.

jay, let me address some of the things you have said:

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!!!

i am NOT one of your people. how dare you insinuate that i should follow YOU as opposed to my Lord? and you speak of cults while demanding that we follow YOUR word... HYPOCRITE BEGONE

St. jay

now you dare to insult the saints by self proclaiming yourself to be so rightous that you are IN heaven right now. let me ask you this... are you dead? thats kindof a requirement of being a saint. are you so sure you are BOUND for heaven. let me remind you of a little thing the Bible calls a DEADLY sin: pride. in fact, if you read through the Bible for real as opposed to the skimming that you do, you'll see that God HATES pride on the equal with any other sin...

(of the royal priesthood;

so now you are self proclaimed royalty? eh? you are not a priest either. let me remind you of a little something Jesus said, since you seem so keen on quoting scripture... "unless you give up all that you have, you cannot follow me." doesnt seem to match you very well. have you taken a vow of poverty? have you fed the hungry? listened to the tears of others? visited the sick and imprisoned? NO. i'll address this below under your next quote.

saved not by works of righteousness which I have done, but according to HIS MERCY/ By GRACE ONLY,

of course youre not saved by your own rightousness, nobody is. we are all saved by faith, so nows that time again for the Bible to come out. "Faith without works is dead,... even the demons have faith in God and tremble." see, youve been fed this horrible lie that you dont have to do anything to be worthy in the eyes of God. this is a falsity. there is a huge difference, see: nothing you can do can make you worthy in the eyes of God but you must TRY. theres a big difference.

see, the whole idea of nothing needed to be worthy is a sham. i know, martin luther and the reformation changed that right? WRONG. martin luther NEVER suggested that we should do NO works. he suggested a shift in emphasis from complete works back to a balance between faith AND works.

not by works! lest ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST!)

so instead of trying to boast about how rightous you are because of your works as you (wrongly) accuse us catholics are doing, you are boasting of your great faith and how you are a saint and we should follow you in your man made fancy. heh, i think not. off to your master, or join us in true faith.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 22, 2003.

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". He was talking about "Sola Scriptura".

What you perceive to be "the" faith, is corrupted and will continue to be corrupted, because you believe that your so called "church" is the succession of the apostles.

The only thing is, the apostles would never have allowed the doctrines of devils that are in the church to get to the point that you are now believing!

It is blasphemy to say that a "man" should be called Holy Father, yet you are deluded into believing it. Why?

Because you "loved not the truth" (thy WORD is TRUTH), so therefore you will believe a lie! (and are believing one)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God" Do you believe that verse eugene? I doubt that you do. Because if you admit that you to, then you would have to beleive the rest of the verse:

"and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction"

so we should use the "scripure" to prove and correct our doctrine. So where is it in the scriptures that says anthing about the blasphemous worship that is being given to Mary, as a goddess.

Powers and glory and the reign of heaven and earth. Her name, able to make hell and heaven tremble! What garbage! what an abomination !

This is Satan, lifting his ubly head up and saying, "I will get them to worship me by worshipping a mere human being, rather than God. The creature, rather than the Creator. But you can't see it can you?

Just after Jesus said, "In vain they do worship Me, making for doctrines the commandments of men", He then said, "leave them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch"

You are in the ditch spiritually and don't even know it.

You agree that "It Is Finished" was Jesus offering the Once for ALL sacrifce to the Holy Father (no not an old man in the vatican, I am taling about God Almighty!) then why do you continue to make a "non- bloody" sacrifice over and over and over ? I guess "It Is NOT Finished". Jesus "sat down", but you have Him remaining on the cross!

Either that or you have a powerless little baby Jesus in the arms of the great and powerfull goddess Mary (really Isis and Horus from ancient Roman idol worhsip).

The Marian dogmas are ANTICHRIST, and they deny that Jesus Christ IS COME IN THE FLESH!

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 22, 2003.

Rough time, Hmm, JG?

You have a case of scriptural prostatitis: You quote like a sick man urinates, in false starts! Lol! You were once a Catholic, until you ''got saved''--Huh? What a clown! He threw away gold and reached for sand! --Now if he ever gains salvation, he'll have to eat the ten thousand words he's already spilled in here. Pray for this soul, Catholic friends /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

Paul,

1. "Come out of her my people" is God, in Rev., telling any Christians to come out of the great harlot (the Roman Catholic cult) that sits on the seven hills of ROme, to come out, and not to be partakers of "her" sins.

2. Any born again bleiver (child of God) is a Saint. And, no, you don'thave to die to be called a saint, read you bible (you do have one right?) Acts 9:13, Acts 9:41, Acts 26:10, Rom 1:7, Rom 12:13, Rom 15:25, Rom 15:26, Rom 15:31, Rom 16:2, Rom 16:15, 1Cr 1:2, 1Cr 6:1, 1Cr6:2, 1Cr14:33, 1Cr 16:1, 1Cr 16:15, 2 Cr 1:1, 2 Cr 8:4, 2 Cr 9:1, 2 Cr 9:12, 2 Cr 13:13, Eph 1:1, Eph 1:15, Eph 5:3, Phl 1:1, Phl 4:12,

and many many more!

3. Of the Royal Priesthood? YES I am! I have been given Christ's righteosness! have you ???? 1 Peter 2:9 Wow Paul, I thought you knew some TRUTH, but it looks like you have been relying on the priest telling you what it says again .....lol ! Just like Abraham, I beleived God, and it was counted unto me for righteousness! "if righteousness cometh by the law (works) then Christ is dead in vain"

4. No Paul, the demons don't have "faith" in God and tremble, they believe that there is one God, and tremble. Simply believing that God "is" is not enough to get saved. You MUST be BORN AGAIN!

Faith without works is dead, simply means, that "if" you are truly born again, and have received Jesus Christ as your savior, you WILL produce WORKS! It is as natural as a good tree, bearing good fruit. It comes natually,

"IF" you are born again. If not, it is simply hay and stubble. James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY my works.

"God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE" That is the WILL of GOD! Repentance !not good works!

"Many shall say to me in that day, Lord! Lord! didn't I do this (go to church, visit the sick, blah, blah, blah, ..... and I will say to him, depart from me! ye that work iniquity, for I NEVER KNEW YOU!

How do you come to KNOW Jesus Christ? Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN"

That which is born of the FLESH is FLESh (this is the "water" birth) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You said, "nothing you can do can make you worthy in the eyes of God" now that is true, but then you say, "but you must try". Now that is a lie! You see, "there is NONE righteous,no not one" not ever Mary, she had to receive Jesus CHrist as her savior too! So did Peter and ALL, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God!

You are still not getting it! It is Christ's righteousness that we receive, when we stop relying on OUR OWN works, and rely 100% and believe 100% in HIS righteousness! he has "conferred" upon US , HIS KINGDOM!!

Now , when you truly RECEIVE HIM, and realize what He has done for us, and given us, THEN you WILL BE BORN AGAIN!!

May the LORD of GLORY open your eyes, and give you the Spirit!

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 22, 2003.

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". He was talking about "Sola Scriptura". Only one little problem, Jay, the printing presses were not invented and rolling until the late 1500's early 1600's. What about all those poor souls prior to the printing press? Oh, I get it, Jesus meant, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and is written, translated, compiled, canonized by 'Catholic Bishops' and then rolled off the presses, oh, in about 1500 years." Ha, Ha, Ha! Once again, you show your supreme ignorance!

Here's something to think about:

Math, 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and WILL THEN RECOMPENSE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

2 Cor. 5:120 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his DEEDS in the body, according to what he has DONE, whether good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17 And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man's WORK, conduct yourselves in FEAR during the time of your stay upon earth.

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their DEEDS.

Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has DONE."

Appears you are mistaken, Jay, there is MUCH WORK to be done! I submit to you that you have a FALSE PEACE based on the sloppy-agape, once-saved-always saved doctrine of a lazy demon!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2003.

Protest-ant Jay,

Here are but a few quotes on "apostolic succession," written by none other than, Ignatius, Clement, Tertullian, ATHANATHIUS, AUGUSTINE, THEMSELVES. I guess they were ALL heretics of that Whore too, huh, Jay? You see, not only do you have to rewrite scripture in your own image, but history as well. Ahh, Jay, busy, busy, busy you will be, to refute the claims of the Holy See!

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Clement,Epistle to Corinthians,42,44(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:16,17

"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as ... Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69

"Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: 'And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.' " Hegesippus,Memoirs,fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History,4:22 (A.D. 180),in NPNF2,I:198-199

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4:33:8(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:508

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,--a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian,Prescription against the Heretics,33(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:258

"And that you may still be more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit." Clement of Alexandria,Who is the rich man that shall be save?,42(A.D. 210),in ANF,II:603

"We are not to credit these men, nor go out from the first and the ecclesiastical tradition; nor to believe otherwise than as the churches of God have by succession transmitted to us." Origen,Commentary on Matthew (post A.D. 244),in FOC,407

"Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers." Cyprian,To the Lapsed,1(A.D. 250),in ANF,V:305

"Therefore the power of remitting sins was given to the apostles, and to the churches which they, sent by Christ, established, and to the bishops who succeeded to them by vicarious ordination." Firmilian,To Cyprian,Epistle 75[74]:16(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:394

"It is my purpose to write an account of the successions of the holy apostles, as well as of the times which have elapsed from the days of our Saviour to our own; and to relate the many important events which are said to have occurred in the history of the Church; and to mention those who have governed and presided over the Church in the most prominent parishes, and those who in each generation have proclaimed the divine word either orally or in writing... When Nero was in the eighth year of his reign, Annianus succeeded Mark the evangelist in the administration of the parish of Alexandria... Linus ... was Peter's successor in the episcopate of the church there ... Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome." Eusebius,Ecclesiastical History,1:1,2:24,(A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:81

"Lo! In these three successions, as in a mystery and a figure ... Under the three pastors,--there were manifold shepherds" Ephraem,Nisbene Hymns,The Bishops of Nisibis(Jacob, Babu, Valgesh),13,14(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,XIII:180

"[W]hile before your election you lived to yourself, after it, you live for your flock. And before you had received the grace of the episcopate, no one knew you; but after you became one, the laity expect you to bring them food, namely instruction from the Scriptures ... For if all were of the same mind as your present advisers, how would you have become a Christian, since there would be no bishops? Or if our successors are to inherit this state of mind, how will the Churches be able to hold together?" Athanasius,To Dracontius,Epistle 49(A.D. 355),in NPNF2,IV:558

"For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: 'Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !' The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of "mountain men," or Cutzupits, by which they were known." Augustine,To Generosus,Epistle 53:2(A.D. 400),in NPNF1,I:298

BTW, these are BUT A FEW of the MANY quotes on apostolic succession. Would you like to see what they said about PETER, MARY, PURGATORY, SOLA SCRIPTURA? I doubt it.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2003.

Wow, Jay, I was reading the writings of Clement and Origen, and I couldn't help but think of you! If course, there are many other writings of the fathers of the church along this vein. I only selected two (didn't want to overwhelm you).

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; OPPOSING THE DIVINE TRADITION BY HUMAN TEACHINGS, in order to establish the heresy." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,7:16 (post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:553-554

"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying:'LO, HE IS IN THE INNER ROOMS [ie., the word of truth] ' (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the ORIGINAL TRADITION OF THE CHURCH, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught BY THE SUCCESSION IN THE CHURCH OF GOD." Origen,Homilies on Matthew,Homily 46,PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254),in CON,392

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2003.

jay, i am disgusted by your putrifications of the Holy Text. you know paraphrasing the Bible to fit it to YOUR needs is heresy right?

let me address some of your quirks here:

Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God". He was talking about "Sola Scriptura".

no, he wasnt. the word of God is not embedded MERELY in the Bible but also in traditions handed down from the time of Christ. let me ask you something: if youre righting a calculus book would you include chapters on how to add and subtact? NO. because the authors assumed it was known to all AND would be handed down. you just cant accept the fact that God still works in his church. because you believe that your so called "church" is the succession of the apostles.

so i guess what your saying is that when Jesus said, peter you are my rock, upon you i place my church, that he was lying? or maybe Jesus meant to only establish a one generation church and anyone else would be screwed out of salvationt eh? that leaves you SOL too though. see, because Jesus established a church until his return, you HAVE to believe in apastolic succession, or you call Christ a liar.

It is blasphemy to say that a "man" should be called Holy Father, yet you are deluded into believing it. Why?

i covered this already in another thread. there is a difference in the words used for father. did you know that hebrew has more than five different words for father? that when God said call no man father but me he was referring to the word ABBA, or heavenly father... and that this holds NO relevance to the hebrew word for earthly father.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God"

actually, could you please quote the book, chapter and verse number for this?

"and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction"

thats funny, you say the church cant interpret dogma or correct its policies, and yet you quote a verse saying that the Bible is for reproof and correction. accidental contradiction? or maybe truth slipping between your misconceptions?

so we should use the "scripure" to prove and correct our doctrine. So where is it in the scriptures that says anthing about the blasphemous worship that is being given to Mary, as a goddess.

it isnt because we DONT worship mary. we RESPECT her as the mother of God. how many times do you have to hear from solid catholics that we DONT worship mary before you stop telling us what we believe?

Powers and glory and the reign of heaven and earth. Her name, able to make hell and heaven tremble!

where did you actually get this quote? please, a good source that can be found in Vatican archives, not something made up by some fundamentalist with a dispassion towards the Lords true church.

Just after Jesus said, "In vain they do worship Me, making for doctrines the commandments of men", He then said, "leave them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch"

again i want to know EXACTLY where you found this in the Bible, or perhaps you are visited in your dreams by the angel of lights? private revelation at its best.

then why do you continue to make a "non- bloody" sacrifice over and over and over?

because Jesus said "unless you eat My body and drink My blood you shall not have life."

Jesus "sat down", but you have Him remaining on the cross!

actually, Jesus is the risen Lord, not the sitting down in the dirt lord. and crucifixes are REMINDERS that when we sin we go back and help the pharisees to nail our Lord to the cross, helps to keep you from sinning again.

Either that or you have a powerless little baby Jesus in the arms of the great and powerfull goddess Mary

actually statues of the virgin and Child are to remind us of the great power Christ had, even as a child, and of the special relationship between Christ and his mother. you would have us believe that Christ would choose us not to respect his mother, but if he wanted that then how would he be honoring his mother and father?

i'll continue in a second post

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 22, 2003.

PART TWO: RESPONSE TO JAY "Come out of her my people" is God, in Rev. you didnt say it that way. deep down i dont believe that was an accident either. when i quote God its generally in quotes at least, if not led up by a good transition. you didnt even put the verses. Any born again bleiver (child of God) is a Saint. WRONG. Jesus said "unless you eat my body and drink my blood you shall not have life in you" and "a man who is not baptized shall not have eternal life." you can be born again a thousand times, but these are two NON DEBATABLES presented by our Lord. And, no, you don'thave to die to be called a saint, read you bible (you do have one right?) Acts 9:13, Acts 9:41, Acts 26:10, Rom 1:7, Rom 12:13, Rom 15:25, Rom 15:26, Rom 15:31, Rom 16:2, Rom 16:15, 1Cr 1:2, 1Cr 6:1, 1Cr6:2, 1Cr14:33, 1Cr 16:1, 1Cr 16:15, 2 Cr 1:1, 2 Cr 8:4, 2 Cr 9:1, 2 Cr 9:12, 2 Cr 13:13, Eph 1:1, Eph 1:15, Eph 5:3, Phl 1:1, Phl 4:12, oh, got the catholic stumped because the word saint shows in the Bible? wrong again. the new testament was not written and composed until at least several HUNDRED years after the final events took place. that means by the time the books were written saints had been canonized already. ALSO, the words in ARAMAIC for holy men can also be translated into saint, although holyness and saintliness dont always HAVE to occur together. BTW-- i do have a Bible. in fact, i have five. four of them are protestant Bibles though, and, giving you the benefit of the doubt thats even where i looked up your falsified scripture quotes. 3. Of the Royal Priesthood? YES I am! I have been given Christ's righteosness! have you ???? 1 Peter 2:9 but youre not even a member of the church the letter was written to. if the letter of 1 Peter was written to the catholic church, and youre not in it, then how can you claim what is ours? Just like Abraham, I beleived God, and it was counted unto me for righteousness! again you proclaim yourself rightous, who are no less a sinner than any other man on earth. smite your pride that you may see the true nature of sin in your soul and seek forgiveness. "if righteousness cometh by the law (works) then Christ is dead in vain" again, im going to need to see a reputable source for this quote. No Paul, the demons don't have "faith" in God and tremble, they believe that there is one God, and tremble. faith: the belief in the existance of something (for example, God). believing in something. seems by believing there is a God the demons have some faith in him, especially if they tremble before him. trembling before God is certainly more credit than you give Him, as you proclaim your own glory. James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY my works. heretic and blasphemer i call you, James says nothing of the sort. he says "i will show you a faith JUSTIFIED BY my works." you parse his words to you will, a grave matter as you corrupt the word of God. "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE" That is the WILL of GOD! Repentance !not good works! repentance is a three stage process:
1) guilt-- one feels sorry for their sin
2) appology-- one confesses their sin to their brother, and recieves forgiveness
3) contrition-- one acts to make up for their sin and correct their wrong. they WORK to fix their wrong. "Many shall say to me in that day, Lord! Lord! didn't I do this (go to church, visit the sick, blah, blah, blah, ..... and I will say to him, depart from me! ye that work iniquity, for I NEVER KNEW YOU! again you parse and misquote the Bible to suit your needs. it says nothing of the sort. You said, "nothing you can do can make you worthy in the eyes of God" now that is true, but then you say, "but you must try". Now that is a lie! You see, "there is NONE righteous,no not one" funny, thats exactly what i said. NO ONE IS RIGHTOUS. only you have claimed rightousness so far in this debate. i merely repeated what James said about doing the works of faith.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 22, 2003.

wow, that didnt format right at all, the italics is yours, the rest is mine.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 22, 2003.

correction: the NEW kjv (a NEW crappy translation) says i will show you faith by my works. this is a bad translation though. besides, if you look a little farther down in james you will see that even the NKJV says that faith is justified by works.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 22, 2003.

Dear Paul,

I am a former Pentecostal that converted to Catholicism. (You commented on one of my posts the other day.)

Anyway...

I am also a writer. I now write Apologetics for The Church. I also am a web designer and am currently working on a site which doesn't have a permanent title yet but it's going to be something like...Pentecostal Answers regarding Catholics.

On this web site, I ONLY use the King James Version of the Bible to make a case for Catholicism. An impossible task you may think, but through God's grace, I have been able to present a humble case for The Church, using ONLY the KJV. I did this on purpose because many Protestants of this persuasion will only accept that version as truth.

Having been in both "camps" as it were...I have a unique perspective on how these brothers and sisters in Christ feel about the Bible, the Gospel as they know it, and Catholics.

Many Pentecostals feel that Catholicism can't be true because it's "not in the Bible". They cannot accept any documentation from any other source, not history, not Catechism, not anything. Therefore, in order to help them, we have to start with "their Book"...the King James Version.

I think that if Catholicism is true and Biblical...which it most certainly is...that there ARE verses to back it up. Yes...even in the KJV.

I will let you know the URL once I've finished editing and posted it. In the meantime, pray for me to have patience, wisdom, and kindness.

Also…I just wanted to mention that I have loved reading all of your posts on this board. You are a WONDERFUL apologist. I’m very inspired.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), May 22, 2003.

Oops...boy is MY face red! Unfortunately my post was to -- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net) and not - Paul (dontsendmemail). Although, "dontsendmemail" had some good comments, also.

Sorry...that's probably why my e-mail name is "tecdork" because that's just what I am...a dork...ha ha ha.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), May 22, 2003.

Dear Victoria,

I also quote from the KJV when I am speaking to those who insist upon it. No reason not to, really. What is there is mostly valid. There are a number of mistranslated words, but most of those don't drastically alter the meaning of the passage in which they occur. And a few words slipped into the text here and there, which one needs to be careful about. And of course the seven missing books (which were not missing from the original KJV!). But the KJV says that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth; that Peter holds the keys to the Kingdom; that whatsoever he binds on earth is bound in heaven; that whose sins a priest remits are remitted; and that His flesh is true food and His blood true drink, just like any other Bible. If it didn't, it wouldn't be a Bible.

Will look forward to seeing your website when it is ready.

Paul

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 22, 2003.

Dear Paul:
You will pardon me; but I have no reason to think the King James Bible is good for you, a Catholic. You have Catholic editions to spare. A Bible edition produced in a heretical church, with no permission given by the Catholic Church is a spurious and deficient edition.

Yes, the Old English is refined and sweet. The intent of its readers is good; and altogether, some of its contents do not conflict with the authorised editions.

But it is not Catholic and never will be. You are not pleasing God, accepting it as a distant relative of our catholic editions. You HAVE His Bible; and all others are anti-Catholic. That's a fact.

I'm all for tolerance, and broadminded faith. But I would never embrace protestant editions of the Holy Bible, even as curiosities. I would rather not have one at all. The Church would still preach the Gospel to me, as she once did to our blessed ancestors. I thank God this will not be needed. But, our Bible should be SACRED to us all. Not interchangeable, to please ourselves or anybody else.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 22, 2003.

Dear Eugene,

I agree completely with everything you said. But that is not the point. The point is, it is far more meaningful and potentially convincing to guide a non-Catholic to the truth in the pages of his very own Bible, which he already accepts as undisputable truth, than to show him the same passages in a Catholic Bible, which he doesn't trust. When in Rome ...

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 22, 2003.

Eugene...you make a wonderful point about not changing versions just to please some people. You are absolutely right. I enjoy the RSV with the Catholic addition, or the New American Standard-St. Joseph Bible that is recommended by the Church. Sometimes, having come out of Pentecostalism and having been raised with the KJV, it gives me shivers...and not the good kind...to have to deal with it's limited scope, so I understand your feelings toward it. They are the same as mine.

However, if I were to try to share my faith with a Jew, a Muslim, or a Buddhist, I would start by using THEIR scriptures. This saves me time in the long run because they already accept their book as authoritative. If I don't use their Scripture, I have TWO problems: to get them to see my point of view, AND to get them to accept MY book as authoritative. This only makes things harder when starting a dialog with people who believe differently than I do. I like to USE their scripture to point out the errors in faith. If I use mine, they won't accept it. Besides, some people are more open to what you have to say, once they see you've taken the time to quote from their scripture. You never know...it may be a doorway in.

At any rate, your view of standing up for your own version is absolutely right. For my personal study, I only use the Catholic...or REAL...inspired Word of God.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), May 22, 2003.

You may take your own choice; I can't stop you. If success depended on such concessions to potential converts, I might see it your way. If the Holy Spirit is active in the work of conversion, who says our Bible is inadequate? Are we ashamed to own up to the genuine, holy work of our Church? We might well give that impression.

By accepting the validity of the King James version we deny it makes any difference; and give credence to the so-called Reformation. That is very counter- productive, IMHO. You will have made a charitable concession to those who deny the Bible's Catholic origins.

And by lending authenticity to ANY protestant edition, the Catholic one is set aside. This is far from trivial; it renders several inspired books ''prohibited'' in an unfair way. Doing that on the chance it will help send your message better shows a lack of confidence in your scriptural wisdom. And in the Holy Spirit's guidance; I'm sorry /

Our own Catholic editions are more than suitable for the work of evangelizing and converting. I find it strange how Catholics would give them short shrift, and for what?

NO; the King James version is an outlawed edition of the Bible. To me, at least.

-- Catholic martyrs died while this edition, (among others like it--) gained ascendency in the English-speaking world. It's not the Catholic version of the scriptures; and no Catholic should give it stature equal to the Catholic versions. This isn't brain surgery. You must realise it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 23, 2003.

Hi Gene

Ive at least changed from my little Blue pocket Giddeons society version! I miss the virtues and answerrs to life problems etc listed in index in the front though! My current Bible "The New Testament RSV"(a Catholic edition of the KJV but esentially the same) has been edited only slightly to be accpetable It is an accurate reflection of Catholic scriptures according to H.E Cardinale the Apolostolic Delegate to Great Britian and the Archbishop of Nepate. It is also aproved by the Standard Bible Committee of the USA.

Why do you express such annoyance at the KJV , it hasnt gained its popularity nor supreme place in literature because it is Protestant. We can only blame oursleves for not producing a better version earlier to match teh KJV. My version was published in 1965 over 20 years since the encylical letterDinvino Afflante Spiritu 1943 encouraged a new version based on Greek manuscrpits yet the Church had not done so and they had to use the KVJ. Can you tell me when this occured as my introduction says two versions were on their way and if your version is based not off the Latin Vulgate but the original language?

Thanks

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 23, 2003.

eugene,

i fully support your view on the KJV, i only mention it because it happens to be different from the four other editions of the Bible (as you see, i note it as a crappy translation). i only mention it because even the KJV says he is wrong.

Guy who is insulting my church, read my posts above and i await your response

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 23, 2003.

Well, I guess we spooked Jay the Gentile off for good. Or else he is feverishly hammering away at MORE scriptures.

Victoria, can't wait till your website is up and running. You are a very gracious lady.

Hey Eugene, KJV isn't THAT bad. It is "almost" identical to Douay Rheims, which of course is better, but hard to find in leather. There are much much worse Protestant translations these days.

Happy Friday,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 23, 2003.

Agustine: "What more shall I teach than that what we read in the Apostles, for Holy Scripture speaks as a rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought. Therefore, I should not teach you anything else except to expound you the words of the teacher."

Also Agustine: "Let those things be removed from our midst which we quoted against each other, not from divine, canonical books, but from elsewhere. Some may perhapst ask, "Why do you want to remove these things from our midst?", Because I do not want the Holy Church proved by human documents, but by divine oracles."

Agustine again: "You ought to know this, and particularly store in your memory that God wanted to lay a firm foundation in the Scriptures against treacherous errors, a foundation against which no one dares to speak who would in any way be considered a Christian."

"For when He offered Himself to them to touch, this did not suffice Him unless He also confirmed the heart of the believers FROM THE SCRIPTURES. For He forsaw that the time would come when we would not have anything to touch, but would have something to READ."

Basil: "Let God-inspired scriptures decide between us and on which ever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of TRUTH"

The Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the rule of faith, for the church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scirpture and in no other source. That which is not found in Scripture is not binding upon the Christian conscience. The Scriptures are not in need of any supplement. Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, church, or council. The Scriptures are self consistent, self inturpreting and self-authenticating. The Christian church looks to the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the church is always subject to the Word and is constantly reformed thereby.

And now, I leave you confused people to your own misery, that of follwing man's words, and man's understanding. I do warn you however, or rather God warns you, with regard to the believing of the many "doctrines of demons" that you have made for yourselves, such as

1. infant baptism 2. the Marian dogmas 3. calling a man "father" or much much worse yet, "Holy Father" 4. purgatory 5. praying to the dead (necromancy) 6. continueing to scrifice the body of Christ over and over "which can NEVER take away sins" 7. taking the words of men, when they are contrary to the more sure Word of God (Scripture) 8. making graven images unto yourselves and on and on and on............................

Proverbs 14:12

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

2 Ti 3:16

"ALL Scripture is given is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect (complete), throughly furnished (perfectly furnished) unto ALL good works."

In Him (Ye MUST be born again!),

St. jay

"

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 23, 2003.

"Agustine: "What more shall I teach than that what we read in the Apostles, for Holy Scripture speaks as a rule for our doctrine, lest we dare to be wiser than we ought. Therefore, I should not teach you anything else except to expound you the words of the teacher."

A: Gee Jay, you are the last person I would expect to be trying to prove the validity of the Bible by quoting the Doctors of the Church. Maybe you are learning something :-) Notice that Augustine says "the words of the teacher", not "the writings of the teacher's disciples". The Catholic Church accepts this completely. It just has a more accurate and inclusive view of "the words of the teacher" than you do.

"Basil: "Let God-inspired scriptures decide between us and on which ever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of TRUTH"

A: This principle also is central to Catholic theology. The Catholic Church does not teach anything that conflicts with the Scriptures. Indeed, this would be impossible since the [New Testament] Scriptures are simply the written record of the early teaching of the Catholic Church. For the Catholic Church to teach anything contrary to Scripture would be to teach something contrary to its own teaching. This principle does not apply in Protestantism however, for even though Protestants sincerely try to keep their beliefs in line with Scripture, the fact that their many conflicting beliefs contradict one another is proof positive that they also contradict the Bible. True beliefs cannot contradict true beliefs.

The Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the regula fide, the rule of faith, for the church.

A: How can you continue to say that with a straight face, after 450 years of continuous fragmentation, conflict, and doctrinal chaos, which continues to get worse and worse every day, and which is clearly the result of attempting to follow precisely that same false tradition which you just stated! Jesus said the Church was to be ONE in belief, ONE in worship. How can you support a manmade system which has resulted in the exact OPPOSITE of God's stated will for His Church? Jesus said "by their fruit you will know them". The fruit of Sola Scriptura has been devastating to Christian unity. Jesus said "a house divided against itself cannot stand". Which is why Protestantism continues to disintegrate before our very eyes, with new sects forming every week. Open your eyes! Where there is unity, there is the Church Christ founded. Where there is disunity, the will of God does not prevail, and the tradition which led to such disarray is therefore necessarily ungodly.

"Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, church, or council."

A: Yes, the inherent authority behind the written word depends only on its source. But the written word is useless unless it is transformed from black marks on a page into concepts in the mind. This process is called interpretation. It is not the authority of the writer that is in question here, but the authority of the interpreter; for there is no faster route to heresy than an inerrant book in the hands of fallible interpreters. Again, the thousands of conflicting doctrines of Protestantism, all supposedly derived "directly from the Bible" via unauthoritative personal interpretation, should be a clear sign to any thinking individual that the system leading to such conflict cannot be godly, cannot be authoritative, and simply doesn't work! God gave authority to ONE Church - the one He founded - symbolized by the Keys to the Kingdom, placed in the hands of the divinely appointed human head of that Church. He stated that WHATSOEVER that Church defines as binding teaching carries a divine guarantee of truth - "is bound in heaven". The results of this are obvious to anyone who takes an honest look - 2,000 years of constant, pure, unchanging doctrinal truth - NO denominations. Which system appears to you to be more in line with Jesus' own description of what His Church was to be?

"The Scriptures are self consistent, self inturpreting and self-authenticating."

A: Sorry, but this is pure fantasy. NO written work can interpret itself or authenticate itself. Even a STOP sign has to be interpreted before it can be obeyed. Interpretation is a work of the mind. A book has no mind. And authority can be held only by conscious entities, not by a written work. The Constitution of the United States has no authority apart from the government which produced it. Indeed, it is simply a written record of decisions made by that goverment, under ITS OWN authority. Likewise the Bible. The designated writers had authority to write. The designated interpreters have authority to interpret. No-one else has any authority whatsoever related to the scriptures, and the scriptures themselves cannot exert any authority except through the designated interpreters. Again, if your statement were true, we would not see the overwhelming degree of conflict and contradiction among those sects which attempt to "let the Bible interpret itself" - an essentially meaningless phrase.

"And now, I leave you confused people to your own misery, that of follwing man's words, and man's understanding."

A: With all due respect Jay, you sound angry, confused, and miserable. I am completely secure and at peace in the fullness of truth. Wouldn't you like to be? The fullness of truth is available to you. But first you have to deal with this untenable notion that "man's words and man's understanding" results in unity and peace, while "God's way" results in dissention, division, and confusion. That just doesn't make sense.

"ALL Scripture is given is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

A: You emphasized the wrong word here Jay. The passage should read ...

"ALL Scripture is given is given by inspiration of God, and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Every Catholic realizes that scripture is profitable. Indeed it plays an essential role in the life of the Church. However, "profitable" is miles away from "the sole source of Christian truth". If Scripture really was intended to be "the sole source", surely that fact would be revealed in Scripture, and we would not have to come to it through Protestant oral tradition. If the role of the Bible was to provide us with everything we need, surely we could find a passage that says something more definitive than "the Bible is profitable" - "useful" - "helpful". Yet we find no such statement. Which means you are basing your whole approach to spiritual life on an unbiblical principle. And therein lies the central problem with Sola Scriptura - it is not only unbiblical, but is anti-Biblical.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 23, 2003.

jay, my good man,

does this:

And now, I leave you confused people to your own misery, that of follwing man's words, and man's understanding. I do warn you however, or rather God warns you, with regard to the believing of the many "doctrines of demons"

mean you give up? or maybe you cant respond to my previous posts

paul (not paul the moderator with email paulCYp) other paul.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 23, 2003.

Jay, would you care to cite your sources for your Augustine quotes? Not that it matters, really, in light of Paul's very good response.

You see, in the Church, it's not scripture alone, however scripture is the basis of ALL of our LIVING traditions that have been passed on to us from our forefathers. You seem to think the church fathers have no authority to even interpret scripture, BUT you do!

Here are three distinct questions for you:

1. What makes your interpretation of scripture any better than ours?

2. How does Prostestantism foster the unity prescribed by Jesus in his High Priestly prayer?

3. How does Protestantism square with 1 Corinthians Chapter 3? "For when one says, 'I am of Paul,' and another, 'I am of Apollos,' are you not mere men?" (I won't type the rest of the chapter. I am sure you are familiar with it).

Gail

P.S. Necromancy is denounced in our Catechism, Jay, and according to Webster's means the invocation of evil spirits to foretell the future. That is not what Catholics do, Jay, they simply ask for the prayers of our brothers and sisters in the Lord who are with the Lord.

As you rebel against the Church Christ founded remember this, "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." I have noted a frenzied, rebellious, spirit amongst some of my Protestant brothers and sisters that I can only describe as demonic, and like Satan, they twist, contort, misuse and abuse scripture in their own likeness, as if "they were God." I know people, good people, who have LITERALLY been driven mad by a spirit of rebellion. I truly hope that doesn't happen to you.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 23, 2003.

I have answers:

''You express such annoyance at the KJV , it hasnt gained its popularity nor supreme place in literature, (It has NO supreme place; it happens to be refined English. I can show you excellent refined Spanish editions; and the Douay Bible script is ever so beautiful, not inferior to KJ at all)

I'm not annoyed, I simply resent the possibility Catholics rate the bible editions of heretics as good enough for Catholics.

Keep in mind, it is mutilated, missing seven & change books. It was truncated that way by ex-Catholics who denied the Catholic faith. Whose descendents today deny almost all Catholic biblical interpretation. So, to me it was meant as the particular instrument for discrediting Catholicism. You go on:

''We can only blame ourselves for not producing a better version earlier to match the KJV.'' I don't believe we have failed historically or otherwise, in ''producing a better version.'' The Catholic editions have always been superior, not just ''matches'' in the mere fact they were published COMPLETE and unabridged. The KJV is by definition inferior. Good language & translative beauty alone give it no claim to superiority. Just my view; but perfectly reasonable, don't you think?

Then, Gail:
Eugene, ''KJV isn't THAT bad. It is "almost" identical to Douay Rheims, which of course is better, but hard to find in leather.'' Above I've explained why it isn't almost identical. In the first place, the True Church didn't edit, translate or permit its publication. It's a rip-off of the previous Catholic editions, with deletions of the truth, and to this day is employed in forwarding false doctrines. That makes it spurious in origin, Christian authenticity and the authority of the Holy Spirit.

This may shock you, I suppose. But, the Word of God was given to Christ's Holy Church. That Church gave no blessing to the KJV at its source; no license to enter a Christian home. All their license was through heretical churches. Very sad; because today even Catholics consider it wonderful! They tread softly around the uncanonized book, as if it were fully inspired just as well as the Church's editions. --Just contemplate what I mean. It will gradually dawn on you how I'm right. I have leathern editions of the Catholic Bible. Leather is no great shakes, is it? It comes from cows.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 23, 2003.

Hey Eugene, yes I understand your point. I love cows, especially on my Bibles! (How odd that sounds) Anyway, I have several Catholic Bibles, and would much prefer a Douay Rheims (which I do have, but it's very old and I'm afraid of overusing it too quickly). It is marvelously illustrated with excellent Catholic footnotes. I wish the Church would produce a good leather bound Douay with orthodox Catholic footnotes, with Christ's words in red. This is my "wish" Bible if I could order one EXACTLY how I want it. Perhaps if we cry out loud enough, someone will hear us. I think there's probably a market for a Bible like that.

There is a two volume, hard bound study bible I have heard of (can't remember the name), but it's Douay with footnotes from the fathers. That would be very nice.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 23, 2003.

Eugene, did you know that the first printings of the KJV 1611 edition did have the deuterocanicals, but they were slowly phased out over 200-300 years? I always like to point that out to my Protestant friends, because their modern day KJV's are missing books from their very own first English translation.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 23, 2003.

Gail,
It pleases me very much to have your input in this matter, because you've been on the protestant side, and know all the differences. The fact you're a convert and a devout Catholic speaks volumes here. God has truly blessed you, and through YOU will surely bless many more people.

I don't wish to seem hidebound (pun intended) saying outrageous things about the KJV of the Bible. I only want to set a record straight; that too many Christians are ignorant of the Church's proprietary rights to the Holy Bible. Rights conferred on her alone, by Christ and the Holy Spirit, not by men. The New Testament is HER revelation to the world, HER Gospel inspired by God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 24, 2003.

Yes, Eugene, I understand your points entirely, and we see the plight of Protestantism in their multitude of unseemly translations/paraphrases today. There is no one to stop ANYONE from translating the Bible as they see fit in Protestantism. I couldn't begin to estimate how many translations there are now. I recently heard of a translation from Oxford (I think) that expunges the Bible of any references to homosexuality. I know the "Jesus Seminar" wishes to revamp the canon entirely.

The safest translations in Protestanism are the New American Standard and KJV. I have a New American Standard in the Thompson Chain Reference, which is a marvelous topical Bible. I have actually been able to use it to a great extent in supporting Catholocism. Say for instance the topic is "Mary". Well, I can look in my Chain Reference under "Mary, the mother of Jesus" index and find every single scripture relating to her. It may make you smile to know that I recovered my NAS in a leather Bible cover with the Rosary embossed in gold on its front!

Love,

Gail

P.S. Thanks for the words of encouragement . . . I take them to heart, my friend!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 24, 2003.

Paul, you said, "every Catholic realizes that scripture is profitable", yet for many years, those same "catholics" were not allowed to read "scripture"! Also, you are living in a dream world, because I have witnessed to hundreds of "catholics" and they have NO IDEA what the Bibles says. Nor do they believe that it is the Word of God. They have never even heard it taught from the pulpit!

They are not encouraged to read it on their own, because they are told that only the "church" can inturpret it correclty. If that is the case, then the Holy Spirit is not present. WHich is the truth concerning the Roman Cath. religion. "having a FORM of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from such turn away"

Your so called "church" is spiritually bankrupt! You might be interested to note that just because YOU have an understanding of what the Roman Cath. "church" teaches and believes, does not mean that the majority of your fellow "religionists" do.

Go look at your own church history! It is full of death and destruction of true Christians that wanted to read and learn the Bible on their own, and they were killed for it!

Now, in today's world, the Roman catholic cult is trying to LOOK like a bible believing/teaching organization, even mimicking the evangelicals on t.v. But the same white washed sepulchres are full of dead men's bones. Your cult's writings and beliefs are still in place like they were when they were used to justify the killing of thousands upon thousands of Jews and bible believing Christians!

"Ye shall know them by their fruits" and yours, my friend (meaning the "church's), are still stinking.

No amount of sweet talking about the church and scriptures can erase the "fruits" of your satanic organization.

There is a man on the earth right now as we speak, that you call HOLY FATHER! You worhsip the "

Your own writings and doctrines are a witness against you by the WORD!

"call no man your father" "make no graven image of ANYTHING for yourselves"

Paul, you do a good job of defending the antichrist practices of this dark organization, but it is all smoke and mirrors. The real truth is in the average "folowers" fruits. The Roman Cath. religion is a sham.

They have NO assurance of salvation. They have never heard the true gospel. They are superstitious. They have no peace or any other fruit of the Spirit, because they are un-regenerated!

YE MUST be BORN AGAIN!

In Him,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 26, 2003.

Jay, I note that you rarely respond to any of my posts. So I am not sure you are even reading them.

But at any rate, I belong to small parish in the middle of the country -- nowhere's land -- and yet my church is full of "born again" Catholics who love Jesus and love His word. I am sure there are those in the Church who really do not know Christ, as there are in ANY church who really don't know Him.

Shall we talk about the history of Protestantism again, about the thousands, if not millions of Catholics that were slain in the war sparred by Luther's Reformation, or the Church of England beheading those Catholics who refused to acknowledge "the king of England as the head of the Church." There are skeletons in your closet, too, Jay. Care to talk about those? I doubt it.

The Catholic Church reads more scripture in every single mass than any church I have ever belonged to. We sing scripture, we read scripture repeatedly EVERY MASS. We kneel before the Lord our Savior, WHO IS NOT THE POPE! The gospel is portrayed on the walls of our church. We celebrate Easter for six weeks out of every year. We celebrate Christmas and the 2nd coming for 2 months at the end of the year. We proclaim the Apostles Creed at every mass in every parish throughout the world. The gospel is "in your face" at the Catholic Church. If some don't "get it" it because they aren't paying attention and have no hunger for the things of God -- PERIOD!

You are a fundamentalist wacko who is puffed up with a morsal of knowledge that you think you have. Your pride is palpable. You are an egocentric mental midget who really has NO IDEA what he is talking about. Your only hope of finding a "following" is to pray on unsuspecting cafeteria Catholics who do not know their faith, to their shame. You are rude, obnoxious, a slanderer and a perverter of the truth. Let's look at your fruit, Jay!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 26, 2003.

Hey Jay!......What did you call your old man? I mean that's printible. How did momma refer to him, when speaking to you?

-- Beatrice Fink (B@anywhere.com), May 26, 2003.

Gail,

I don't doubt that there are born again beleivers in the Roman Catholic church. That is why God has said, in Rev. "come out of her my people".

The Roman Catholic organization is steeped in the "traditions of men", and as such, it has "transgressed the commandments of God by its traditions".

If you look up "Marian prayers" on google, and read the prayers to the virgin Mary, written by the popes and various other Catholics over the years, you will see that here in lies the key to the deception!

If Mary is "sinless" as your "tradions say" (with NO scripture at all to justify it) then Jesus Christ is NOT come in the flesh!

I John 4:3 says, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have hearrd that it should come; and even now already is in the world"

Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh."

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Hebrews 2:16 "For verily He took NOT on Him the nature of angels, but He took on Him the SEED OF ABRAHAM."

Gail, this is important. If you have eyes to see, and ears to hear, then consider what I say.

If you carefully read the "prayers to Mary", you will no doubt see that she has been given the powers of God, and the Glory of God.

Isa 42:8 says " I AM the LORD: that is my name: and my GLORY will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images"

according to the prayers to Mary, she is capable of:

* her mighty name causes heaven to rejoice and hell to tremble

* keep back the arm of justice of thy indignant Son

* receive on the top of Golgotha, the last drop of that divine blood

* to thee, we lift up our hands, crying for mercy

* the earth and all the creatures that people it are subject to thee

* thou alone O Mary canst rescue us from the devil's grasp

* thou art almighty by grace and therefore thou canst save us

* to you O Mary, are known ALL the needs of thy people and the church

* impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms.

* O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds the the eternal truths

Gail, can you see what is going on here? Mary has (supposedly, according to Catholic TRADITION, and not SCRIPTURE) been given the glory and power of God to do all the above HERSELF!

If she can "bathe our minds in the eternal truths", then she has the power of the Holy Spirit, to make the WORD alive in us!

It is clearly blasphemy and the devil's lie!

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 26, 2003.

Paul, you said, "every Catholic realizes that scripture is profitable", yet for many years, those same "catholics" were not allowed to read "scripture"!

Just for the sake of argument, let's hand you this premise. You take it... now, what is it that you plan to prove with it; something like this?:

During a certain period of time, Catholics were not allowed to read Scripture. Therefore, all of Catholic tradition and dogma are null and void.

That doesn't follow... and that's assuming the premise is any good. It don't think it is. It isn't well thought out, and even if it was, it is a real, real lousy basis upon which to render Catholic doctrine and tradition null and void.

"Also, you are living in a dream world, because I have witnessed to hundreds of "catholics" and they have NO IDEA what the Bibles says."

Again, this does not address the truth of Catholic dogma. Peter denied Christ three times. Did this nullify all that Christ taught?

"Nor do they believe that it (Scripture?) is the Word of God."

It isn't. The Word of God is the Word made flesh in the Blessed Sacrament. The Scriptures are the word of God in a different sense. The true mystery of the Incarnation is completely lost outside of Catholicism, and along with it comes the loss of the entire understanding of the Mystical Body of Christ.

In fact, this is where the error of "personal" comes into the phrase "accept Christ as your personal savior". There is absolutely no biblical support for this "personal" aspect of things. We are part of a mystical body, and none of us as special access to salvation outside of a universal body in any "personal" sense. Salvation is NOT the sovereign domain of any individual man. Along with this "personal" error, which is strikingly extra-biblical (Surprise! Enter the words of men by those who claim to abhor such things) comes the excuse to avoid in the participation in the Cross of Christ. In Protestanism, suffering has no intrinsic value and has no relationship to the larger context of the salvation of mankind. The role of the Saints is lost. The role of suffering is lost. The role of the Mother of God is lost. Christ does all the work, and we bask and play.

"They have never even heard it taught from the pulpit! They are not encouraged to read it on their own, because they are told that only the "church" can inturpret it correclty."

Is this true? Are you sure? Let's agian say, for the sake of argument, that that may well be the case; could it only be the tip of the iceberg? Let that stand as it may. But then you conclude:

"If that is the case, then the Holy Spirit is not present."

Can you adequately identify the presence of the Holy Spirit? People seem so sure of themselves when it comes to identifying the Holy Spirit these days... it's really quite amazing, really an astounding heap of assumptions about what God intends. He's here. He's there. Personally, I have trouble at times finding my car in the parking lot. I am bewitched at the clarvoyance of others sometimes...

"...which is the truth concerning the Roman Cath. religion. "having a FORM of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from such turn away""

I don't think you made your case. I believe that I could stretch that same verse to fit any scenario I desire to level it against. Toss me anything and I'll do it for you. After that, then on to the truth I guess.

"Your so called "church" is spiritually bankrupt!"

Yeah, and so is the entire world at this time. But again, this absolutely does not constitute evidence that Catholic tradition and doctrine are in error. I'm sorry, but it just does not follow.

"You might be interested to note that just because YOU have an understanding of what the Roman Cath. "church" teaches and believes, does not mean that the majority of your fellow "religionists" do."

Receive package. Open package, remove product. Insert product into new packaging. Return to sender:

You might be interested to note that just because YOU have read Sacred Scripture and seem to think you have an understanding of what Christ taught and would have us believe, does not mean that the majority of your fellow Protestants understand it either

"Go look at your own church history! It is full of death and destruction of true Christians that wanted to read and learn the Bible on their own, and they were killed for it!"

That's part of the job description of a true follower of Christ, to be persecuted, misunderstand, trampled on, thrown to the dogs, relegated to the trash bin, besmearched, etc. It's in the contract; it's not all that heinous. It is supposed to be an honor.

"Now, in today's world, the Roman catholic cult is trying to LOOK like a bible believing/teaching organization, even mimicking the evangelicals on t.v. But the same white washed sepulchres are full of dead men's bones."

I know. I wish we would just knock it off and quit trying to kiss up to the Protestants and other religions, and just get back to holding the One True Faith. I swear we will win more of you people back that way... lol! I, for one, would love to see you at my side in unity in Christ.

"Your cult's writings and beliefs are still in place like they were when they were used to justify the killing of thousands upon thousands of Jews and bible believing Christians!"

Sounds flowery, but I'm going to stick it to you for evidence. Big charge, big evidence then... show me where Church dogma has approved of any such thing. Make it good.

""Ye shall know them by their fruits" and yours, my friend (meaning the "church's), are still stinking."

This quote is subject to the abuse of many lately, huh? Again, give me any group you don't like, and I'll successfully twist it to use against them, just for demonstration's sake. After a couple rounds of that, one should still be sober enough to determine that, hey, maybe it really doesn't address the truth. Maybe it doesn't prove a whole lot, based on principle. Maybe it aint such irrefutable evidence after all.

"No amount of sweet talking about the church and scriptures can erase the "fruits" of your satanic organization."

Funny thing... and this is truly the Holy Handgrenade if there ever was one... how come when the Satanist get together, they attack the Catholic Church? What do the desecrate? The Eucharist. They hate holy water. They hate sacramentals. If there was ever such a thing as signing up to be on a list to witness a real excorcism, you ought to do it. Protestants have been made Catholics by witnessing excorcisms. The sheer terror and hatred of the demons is aimed solely and squarely against all things Catholic. Why? Because Satan hates the Catholic Church. He hates it because it is the True Church of Christ.

I have yet to hear of a Satanic Black Wednesday Night Prayer Service or a Satanic Black Tent Revival.

Ever heard of a black Mass? Where satanists pervert all things Catholic? Cause for some serious, serious reflection.

"They have NO assurance of salvation."

Neither do you. Seek out your salvation in fear and trembling. Seek and you shall find.

See you at Communion...! lol.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 26, 2003.

Emerald, you out did yourself again!

I love what you said: "In Protestanism, suffering has no intrinsic value and has no relationship to the larger context of the salvation of mankind. The role of the Saints is lost. The role of suffering is lost. The role of the Mother of God is lost. Christ does all the work, and we bask and play." THAT IS IT EXACTLY! Protestantism can give no role to the saints who are with the Lord because the N.T. scripture DOES NOT GIVE ANY INDICATION WHATSOEVER AS TO WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Why? Because they only addressed the needs of their community AT THAT TIME.

And as to suffering, yes in Protestantism (not all, but many) suffering has NO value whatsoever, and in fact is anathema by Word of Faith teachers, and is proof that you are "not living in God's will."

Jay,

ALL of the Marian doctrines and Communion of Saints doctrine is based on WHAT WE BELIEVE THEY DO WHEN THEY GO TO BE WITH THE LORD. YES, it is tradition based on seeds of doctrine found in scripture! What you see today in the Catholic Church's doctrine is the full flower of the seeds found in scripture. The Saints are active, living, vital parts of His community NOW. What they did on earth, they are doing in heaven. What skills and talents they had in His earthly kingdom they are using NOW in His heavenly kingdom. We all have gifts and talents that God will use NOW and for ALL ETERNITY, only in heaven they will be PERFECT!

Let me ask you this: What are the Saints in heaven doing now?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 26, 2003.

Jay,

I think it's only fair for you tell us what "cult" you belong to? Secondly, I would like to know if you have ever been to a Catholic Mass.

Gail

P.S. FYI, at every Baptism in our Church, we verbally DENOUNCE SPECIFICALLY SATAN AND HIS EMPIRE, and to NOT live in according with his dictates.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 26, 2003.

Good work, Emerald--Gail,!

Jay G is, shall we say, after Satan's help once more. He'll come back with a passage or two, maybe seven or eight. He is cast from the bigot's mold.

It's a good point, about Satanists and exorcisms. Bigots never pause to wonder why Satan hates crucifixes & holy water. Satan loves anti-Catholics, and never bothers them. They are safely in his corner.

The only thing Satan does to bigots like JG is tempt them to blaspheme against Jesus Christ's holy mother. God Almighty, to the serpent in Eden: ''I will put emnity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; He shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for His heel (Gen 3:15). This is the woman Jay blasphemes; Mary the immaculate Mother of God. He is in emnity with her, because God says, ''her seed and your seed''. Mary's seed is Jesus, who crushes Satan. Satan also has his seed in the world. Those who hate even the mention of Mary.

Jay bears out the Gen 3. prophesy here in our Catholic forum. Pray for him to be converted to the truth someday!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 26, 2003.

Sorry to get you Romanist our of your comfort zone by telling the truth. You can go back to sleep now. Sleep on.................

to Gail, have I been to see the blasphemy of the "mass"? yes, I was Catholic for many years, up until the Lord opened my eyes, when I got saved,!

Ever since then, I have been in awe of how blind I was to the meaning of the Scriptures.

But, now I can see! and I KNOW that Catholocism is wrong!

Someone asked "which cult" I belong to. Well, I am no longer in the cult known as Roman Catholicism. Now, I am in a Bible Believing Born Again full gospel preaching and Bible teaching Church. Spirit filled and "the Truth has set me free".

What is the TRUTH?

"Thy WORD is TRUTH"

Holy Father? that 's GOD , not a man in the Vatican

Statues? they are an abomination to God, and are fobidden by the 2nd commandment. No, not your 2nd commandment, the REAL one in Exodus!

Infant baptism? Sorry, its not in the bible.

Purgatory? sorry again, not in the bible

Marian worship and dogmas that lift her up, and cause you to worship the "creature" rather than the Creator ? Sorry, not there.

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE says the Spirit!

In Him,

St. jay (of the Royal Priesthood)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@profigy.net), May 26, 2003.

You still didn't give us the name of your denomination, Jay? Or is it some stand-alone "non" denominational group, making up the rules as they go along, with some self-proclaimed prophet in the pulpit?

And would you PLEASE stop misquoting scripture, or should I say "parts of scripture," but then that's what fundamentalist, arrogant, egotistical, know-it-all, Bible-thumping schismatics do best. They twist, turn, chop and dice, misusing the precious word of God to bludgeon people to death, if they can. You wanna talk about blasphemy?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 26, 2003.

Jay saint;

Only a saint would call himself one? I myself am a lowly sinner. --What is the TRUTH? "Thy WORD is TRUTH" --(I want the truth.) His Word is in the Catholic Church. Not over at the meetin' house. You lost the truth, losing your Catholic faith.

''Holy Father? that 's GOD , not a man in the Vatican.'' ---Wrong. You mean Father Almighty. That's God. Catholics would never call a man on earth our Father Almighty. Holy Father is the saint in the chair of Peter. And there are many ''men in the Vatican'', only one Holy Father. How can you be so blind? Oh--Yes. I recall, you left the Catholic Church. It figures, JG.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 26, 2003.

Eugene:

John 17:11

"And now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee HOLY FATHER, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one , as we are."

Now, I am assuming that HOLY FATHER is in your bible as well. But, since you took out the 2nd commandment, it wouldn't surprise me if you removed HOLY FATHER as well! lol!

Gail and others:

I am a Christian. I believe that the Bible is the TRUTH. Other than that, there is no truth. All the rest is man-made relgion.

We are in the last days, and as such, the devil has many already believing a lie. That lie, is the Marian dogmas. he is currentlty driving for the hoop to get the 5th blasphemous dogma approved. This one will officially make Mary the "Co-Redemptrix"/ "Mediatrix"

But, again, the more sure WORD OF GOD is a witness against him, and says,

"There is one God, and one mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ"

The Marian dogmas are ANTICHRIST. If you can't see that, you have already believed the LIE.

II Thes 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, (as in apparitions at Fatima, Muhammed's daughter)

that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed NOT the TRUTH (Thy WORD is TRUTH), but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

In Him,

St. jay (not by WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saves us)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 26, 2003.

Dear Jaw Gentile,
It's very apparent you are a Bible Christian, so-called. If you understood anything in the Bible, it would make a difference, but you see only your own vanity. You butcher the Word of God.

If the ''Marian dognas'' were Antichrist, we would not have any. Because the Catholic Church never teaches error in faith & morals. You are merely a heretic, out to build your own church on sand. A Church without Jesus Christ.

II Thes 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, called sola scriptura with the delusion you know the meaning of the scriptures. A faith disputing with the holy apostles!''

I hesitate to blame God. He allowed your kind to learn false doctrine (a strong delusion,) the blame must go to the ''reformers'', who displaced the true Church in favor of a stripped-down Bible with no love for the apostles. Or love for Mary, who is intimately united with the Church and Jesus Christ. That is your Bible, Jay G!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 27, 2003.

Eugene,

"Ye worhsip, ye know not what"

"I worship God in Spirit and in Truth"

not in man's made up doctrines of devils, or traditions formed from error upon error.

Read the history of the church, and you will see that Satan entered in a Rome, and has had his central seat there since the early 4th century.

You only believe what you are told by men.

But you will be responsible for the WHOLE truth, since "he to whom much is given, much shall be required"

Don't think that you will be able to say, "the church told me to do this or that".

"man shall not live by bread alone , but by EVER WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD"

"Come out of her my people, and be not partakers of her sins"

Purple and scarlet, gold and prescious stones, these are the colors and treastures of Rome. And she is drunk with the blood of the true Saints.

Don't say I didn't warn ya.

in Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 27, 2003.

What a dope. --He never read the epistle to the Romans. Paul gives the real picture of Rome; not the Empire, the Church:

''To all God's beloved who are in Rome, called to be saints: grace be to you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. First I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you; because your faith is proclaimed all over the world.'' Rom 1:7-8. Jay-- ??? Is that Rome? Not really, Hmm? You have her as ''drunk with blood of the saints.''

Paul must have lied to us. We should cast the epistle to the Romans out of the canon. Jay Saint wants it expunged--NOW!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 27, 2003.

So, Jay, if Satan entered Rome and he is seated at the helm, it must be very difficult for him to confess Jesus as Lord at every mass! And to kick himself out at every baptism when he is denounced. How does the guy do that anyway? I know, he takes himself by the scruff of the neck and then kicks himself real hard in the rearend until he gets himself out the door!

But you know, now that I think about, YOU have quite a lot in common with the deadly dude -- you quote scripture just like he does -- out of context and twisted!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 27, 2003.

According to Roman Catholic writings:

"Mary suffered, and as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind, she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depends on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind" --Inter Sodalicia

WOW! There it is ! The Roman Catholic writings have declared that Mary suffered and nearly died with her suffering Son" Yet there is NO SCRIPTURE WHAT SO EVER to support this. And, as we know, we are to LIVE BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.

THey say that MAry actually had a key role in the redemption of the human race. She, along with the Holy Father (that's God by the way) offered her Son to "placate" divine justice.

What this implys is that, without Mary's role in the redeeming of mankind, the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross would not have been complete. Had she not been there, and "suffered and nearly died" with her Son, would Jesus have been able to say, "it is finished"? WOuld the Holy Father have been able to say, "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"? The Romanists imply that Mary had to be there and had to "suffer and almost die" along with Jesus in order to "offer her Son to "placate" divine justice.

"placate": to allay the anger of especially by yeilding concessions, appease.

Thus we see the basis of the 5th and FINAL DOGMA of the Roman Catholic church. This will be Satan's final victory. With this final blasphemy in place as an OFFICAL VATICAN DOGMA, he will be able to say that he has truly created a creature that is LIKE THE MOST HIGH in every way! Mary "CO-REDEMPTRIX" and "MEDIATRIX" !!!!!

This dogma MUST be in place as we near the revealing of the ANTICHRIST! I beleive that it will be the false goddess Mary that will be the focus of the end times false antichrist religion.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them "strong delusion", that they should beleive a lie:"

The LIE will be the Marian appartitions, the Marian dogmas, that Mary is LIKE THE MOST HIGH!

It is this "doctrine of devils" that holds the key in understanding the Roman Catholic "cult"; that GREAT HARLOT that sits on the 7 hills of ROME!

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE and BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS!

OH how the world will mourn the fall of that Harlot! How could it be ? they will ask???

In Jesus Christ (the coming KING!),

St. jay (yea MORE blessed than Mary are those that HEAR the WORD OF GOD and KEEP IT!)

"Who is my mother? and who are my brother and sister?

And He stretched forth His hand toward his disciples, and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For WHOSOEVER shall do the will of my Father (Holy Father) which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and MOTHER."

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), May 31, 2003.

A: Inter Sodalicia is merely a letter written by a Pope. Any views Benedict expressed in that letter were merely his own opinions and observations, not official teaching of the Catholic Church. I say this just to place your source in proper perspective, not to excuse anything he said, since he said nothing contrary to traditional Christian belief.

"The Roman Catholic writings have declared that Mary suffered and nearly died with her suffering Son" Yet there is NO SCRIPTURE WHAT SO EVER to support this".

A: You need scripture to help you believe that a mother suffers almost to the point of death while watching her only son being crucified??? OK - how about this prophecy given to Mary - "a sword will pierce even your own soul - to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed." (Luke 2:35) Does this sound like intense suffering?

"And, as we know, we are to LIVE BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD".

A: Catholics do live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. You live only by those words of God which the Apostles mentioned in their correspondence, and even then you reject the many parts that conflict with your manmade traditions.

"THey say that MAry actually had a key role in the redemption of the human race. She, along with the Holy Father (that's God by the way) offered her Son to "placate" divine justice".

A: Was Jesus not the son of Mary? Did He not have a Father AND a mother? Is it your view that God maliciously tore Jesus away from His mother and sacrificed Him against her will? Certainly not. BOTH His Father and His mother gave Him up freely, for the sake of all mankind.

"What this implys is that, without Mary's role in the redeeming of mankind, the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on the cross would not have been complete".

A: It doesn't suggest that at all. What it does suggest is that without the free cooperation of Mary, there would have been no sacrifice on the cross, for there would have been no Savior to be sacrificed.

"The Romanists imply that Mary had to be there and had to "suffer and almost die" along with Jesus in order to "offer her Son to "placate" divine justice".

A: Not at all. Mary would certainly have suffered and almost died even if she had remained at home, just knowing what was happening to Her beloved Son. It was not her suffering that redeemed us, but her suffering was indicative of her intimate and essential role in the totality of God's plan for our salvation. Surely no-one other than Mary suffered as she did at the crucifixion, except her own flesh and blood, Jesus.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 31, 2003.

Well, Jay, let's take this quote phrase by phrase, shall we?

"Mary suffered, and as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son" Luke 2:35 says "and a sword will pierce even your own soul" Prophecy by Simeon the prophet under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.)

"for the salvation of mankind, she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depends on her," And Mary said "Behold the bondslave of the Lord, be it done to me according to YOUR word." She did not rebel even though by Jewish law she could face the death penalty, not to mention she would be scorned and ridiculed, a cast out from her community. Oh yes, she submitted perfectly to the will of God, and her suffering was immense.

"offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." Luke 2:34 "And a sword shall pierce your very heart to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed." Now, Jay, perhaps since you are a Bible expert you can tell us what in the world does a sword piercing Mary's soul have to do with the "thoughts of many hearts being revealed." Sounds to me like Mary was linked to Christ in an extraordinary fashion!

Had you ever noticed, Jay, that Elizabeth's child, John the Baptist "LEAPT FOR JOY in his mother's womb when she heard the sound of MARY'S voice." Why is that? How could the sound of this simple peasant woman's voice incite baby John to dance for joy in his mama's womb? Because what John heard was the same thing Elizabeth heard, the Mother of all mothers, the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The greeting, "Hail" is only used to address King Jesus and his mom, the Queen, in the entire Bible. (Strong's)

"Hail, Mary, highly favored (full of grace) one." "Highly favored" in the Greek language translates from "Charitoo," "to endue with special honor, special grace." (Strong's). Guess what? Only Mary received this "special charitoo".

Jay, can you agree with scripture that Mary is the "Most Blessed of Woman?"

Can you agree with scripture, that no other human being delivered Messiah to the world?

Can you agree with scripture that no other human being was given the grace to carry out this feat?

Can you agree with scripture, that her soul was pierced with a sword so that the thoughts of many would be revealed?

Can you agree with scripture that she was for 9 months the sanctuary of the Living God of the Universe and that no one else can claim this title?

Can you agree with scripture that she was with Jesus from the moment of his birth to the moment of his death and assension into heaven?

Can you agree with scripture that she "worked with Christ" closer than any other?

If you cannot agree with any of the above statements, I wish that you could give a reason why you cannot agree.

Gail

P.S. All scripture quotations taken from the New American Standard Bible, (Protestant bible)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 31, 2003.

Here's some more quotes from many well-known and respected fathers of our faith(by Protestants alike) on Mary, Our Blessed Mother.

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; for there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother. Of these two fair ones, to whom are my children similar?" Ephraem,Nisbene Hymns,27:8(ante A.D. 373),in THEO,132

"Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy [vessel]; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel" Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127

"The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue." Ambrose,On Virginity,2:15(A.D. 377),in NPNF2,X:374

" 'There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.' The rod is the mother of the Lord--simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God Himself... Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of the Lord." Jerome,To Eustochium,Epistle 22:19,38(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,VI:29,39

"We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine,Nature and Grace,36:42(A.D. 415),in NPNF1,V:135

"Hail, Mary, you are the most precious creature in the whole world; hail, Mary, uncorrupt dove; hail, Mary, inextinguishable lamp; for from you was born the Sun of justice...through you, every faithful soul achieves salvation" Cyril of Alexandria,Homily 11 at Ephesus(A.D. 431),in MFC,243-245

"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, 'The Word was made flesh' let him be anathema." Council of Ephesus[Cyril's Epistle 17], Anathema I(A.D. 431),in NPNF2,XIV:206

"A Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and a Virgin she remains." Peter Chyrsologus,Sermon 117(post A.D. 432),in JUR,III:267

"Therefore, when the time came, dearly beloved, which had been fore- ordained for men's redemption, there enters these lower parts of the world, the Son of GOD, descending from His heavenly throne and yet not quitting His Father's glory, begotten in a new order, by a new nativity. In a new order, because being invisible in His own nature He became visible in ours, and He whom nothing could contain, was content to be contained: abiding before all time He began to be in time: the LORD of all things, He obscured His immeasurable majesty and took on Him the form of a servant: being GOD, that cannot suffer, He did not disdain to be man that can, and immortal as He is, to subject Himself to the laws of death. And by a new nativity He was begotten, conceived by a Virgin, born of a Virgin, without paternal desire, without injury to the mother's chastity: because such a birth as knew no taint of human flesh, became One who was to be the Saviour of men, while it possessed in itself the nature of human substance. For when GOD was born in the flesh, GOD Himself was the Father, as the archangel witnessed to the Blessed Virgin Mary: 'because the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee: and therefore, that which shall be born of thee shall be called holy, the Son of God.' The origin is different but the nature like: not by intercourse with man but by the power of God was it brought about: for a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bare, and a Virgin she remained. Consider here not the condition of her that bare but the will of Him that was born; for He was born Man as He willed and was able. If you inquire into the truth of His nature, you must acknowledge the matter to be human: if you search for the mode of His birth, you must confess the power to be of GOD. For the LORD Jesus Christ came to do away with not to endure our pollutions: not to succumb to our faults but to heal them. He came that He might cure every weakness of oar corruptness and all the sores of our defiled souls: for which reason it behoved Him to be born by a new order, who brought to men's bodies the new gift of unsullied purity. For the uncorrupt nature of Him that was born had to guard the primal virginity of the Mother, and the infused power of the Divine Spirit had to preserve in spotlessness and holiness that sanctuary which He had chosen for Himself: that Spirit (I say) who had determined to raise the fallen, to restore the broken, and by overcoming the allurements of the flesh to bestow on us in abundant measure the power of chastity: in order that the virginity which in others cannot be retained in child-bearing, might be attained by them at their second birth." Pope Leo the Great[regn A.D. 440-461],in Sermon 22:2 (ante A.D. 461),in NPNF2,128 Joseph A. Gallegos © 2000 All Rights Reserved.

-- gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 31, 2003.

Gail, and Paul:
I must congratulate you on the precision with which you pulverised the pretentious objections of the boy saint, Jawy the Gentile! He will very likely skim over your devastating rebuttals in his eagerness to paper over every other view of the scripture but his own. Let him, we know many silent readers in this forum witnessed how YOUR dignity and grace closed the book on Jay

It's a shame he will not care; and the benefits of your wise exegesis go to someone else.

Or; God's love and compassion for Jay could finally intrude into his spiritual darkness and grant Jay the virtue of Christian humility. God can accomplish anything; even when men can't. We know there is no soul can resist Our Lord once He takes a hand in the struggle.

It's the only way Saint Paul would ever have been converted. From the Pharisee Saul going to Damascus, and confronted personally by Jesus; he was shaken to the core, and went on to become Paul the holy apostle.

St. Jay seems to be on his own trip to Damascus, where he can take off his spiritual blinders at last. JESUS must meet him on the road; and we are ''Jesus, whom Jay is persecuting''. We are the Church. Let's pray for him & other freelance evangelists.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 31, 2003.

On the contrary boys and girls of Rome,

I have read ALL that you have posted, and conclude, based on the more sure word of God, that you are believing "cunningly devised fables".

I won't waste my time trying to convince you, since you are so steeped in the traditions of men.

* concerning the use of the word "hail", it is a greeting or salute to rejoice/be glad. Jesus greeted the women (Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses) Matt 28:9 "And as they went to tell His diciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ALL HAIL. And they came and held Him by the feet, and worhsipped HIM.

* I agree that she is "blessed among women", however, what of Jael the wife of Heber? For did not the angel say of her (Judges 5:24) "Blessed ABOVE women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent."

* Does the scriture say that Mary delivered the Messiah to the WORLD? Or does it say, "For GOD so loved the world that He GAVE HIS only begotten Son"?

* Mary was CHOSEN to bring forth the Christ in the FLESH! Not in a sinless god-like flesh! But in the "likeness of sinful flesh".

* the Lord was telling Mary, through Simeon that she would have sorrow upon Christ's death, but that the death must needs be, in order that "the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed" in Christ. Simeon stated a fact, not a prophecy.

* Mary was not with Jeuss from the moment of His birth to the moment of His death. You are createing a god "of your own device" in Mary.

* Where does it say in Scripture, that Mary "worked with Christ closer than any other? Again, you are reaching, trying to lift up Mary, when Jesus Himself never did, in fact, He did the opposite on purpose, to keep this idolatry from happening!

Gail, you are confused! Read the WORD of God, which is what we are to live by! All scripture is given by inspiration of GOD and is profitable for DOCRINE! Is this Marian doctrine that you believe in the BIBLE? Why NOT? Jesus would have mentioned it, if He wanted us to beleive it!

You cannot quote for me the false error filled writings of the so called "fathers" of the church, when it is in violation of the WORD of GOD!

If you feel comfortable just believing the circular reasoning of the Roman Catholic cult, I can't do anything for you, but the WORD of GOD is the TRUTH. And Jesus is the LIVING WORD!

Jesus called Mary woman, and that is what she was, He was "born of a woman", in the FLESH! Not from "sinles" flesh, but the "seed of Abraham", "in the likenss of sinful flesh", so that He was "in all points tempted like as we are, YET WIHTOUT SIN".

You have written yourselves your own god. And have lifted her up and made graven images of her in your churches. You should be ashamed, but instead, you now call her "Co-Redemptrix", and ultimately, you look to HER before Jesus Christ for "all graces".

It is an abomination ! and you have believed "a lie".

It is this same lie that God will allow the world to believe, as Mary brings the Islam religion and Catholocism together for the one world church, and the END>

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator between Men and GOD!)

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 02, 2003.

Once more Jay exhibits a simple lack of the Holy Spirit. His biblical analysis is devoid of truth.

He laments, ''I won't waste my time trying to convince you, since you are so steeped in the traditions of men.'' And so, he is oblivious of all apostolic Tradition in Christ's Church. Christ founded a Holy Church on men, not angels.

Jay will not waste time trying to ''convince'' us. Not surprising, since his efforts aren't convincing to those who have really known the Holy Spirit. Instead of caring about the Tradition of the holy apostles who learned from Jesus Christ, Jay embraces the Bible alone. He can't learn a thing in it, since the Holy Spirit isn't close to him; but OK. He will depend on the traditions of the heretical reformers. All men who expounded on the Bible, and lost the truth of the Holy Spirit.

Jay plays the evangelist for nothing. He makes of Mary ''sinful flesh''. She is truly the Mother of God; and conceived without sin. He learns it now from the Church he was taught to hate. Like it or not, the Word is really reaching Jay at last. The devil hates us too. Because we threaten his hold on Jay's understanding. Let's all give glory to God, and thanks for the light He is shedding on protestant Christians through our good forum.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2003.

Jay,

You said, "It is this same lie that God will allow the world to believe, as Mary brings the Islam religion and Catholocism together for the one world church religion." Say WHAT? Where in the Bible is THAT? You have been watching too many end-times prophets, Jay. Oh, I know, I know, Dave Hunt, Jack Chick and the "whore of Babylon." I have read their ridiculous delusions many times.

Do you really think the world is going to convert to Islam through Mary? Think about it! That is ludicrous. The world doesn't want ANY KIND OF RELIGION! They will make their own religion based on materialism, humanism, secularism, and undergirded by the false Mystery Babylon Religions that began centuries ago, and are still quite in vogue today. (This subject is best suited for another thread.)

I am really tired of arguing with you, Jay. We DO NOT WORSHIP Mary for the millionith time. We honor her! She deserves it! She is blessed ONLY because she had a singular role, the role of all roles, given to her by God Almighty! Your reference to Judges has got to be a joke. There is no woman who compares to Mary! Not one. How could there be? She is the ONLY mother throughout all of eternity -- past, present or future -- who gave birth to Christ, the God-man!

If you think this woman in Judges, however great she may be, accomplished anything even remotely close to what Mary accomplished, then you must have absolutely no respect for our Lord -- JESUS!

I have heard MANY debates between Protestants and Catholics regarding Mary. The Protestants always end up demoting Mary to the point of degrading and humiliating her, suggesting Christ DIShonored her, which of course is a breaking of the commandment, Honor Thy Father AND thy mother.

She is our mother, because she is Christ's mother, just like He is our Father because He is Christ's Father.

Gail

P.S. Do you really think Augustine, Jerome, etc. were heretics? Augustine who encapsulated our doctrine of the Trinity? St. Jerome who translated the Bible into Latin? You think they were heretics, Jay?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 02, 2003.

Gail,

Did you know that the city of Fatima was named after Muhammed's favorite daughter? Did you know that the one common denominator between the Roman Catholic and Islam religion is Mary. The Islamic people believe that Mary chose to appear at Fatima because of the daughter of Muhammed.

However, they do not beleive in Jesus Christ as the Savior. They do not even believe that He was crucified !

Yet, they are drawn to the worship of a woman, Mary!

Your perception is not as keen as you think regarding the End Times. you see, God allows them to believe "a lie", because they "loved NOT the TRUTH". What is the TRUTH? Jesus said to the Holy Father, (John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: thy WORD is TRUTH"

TO deny the WORD of God, that "there is ONE Mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ", is to NOT love the TRUTH.

To deny the Word of God in Isaiah 42:8 "I AM THE LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I NOT give to another, neither my praise to graven images." by saying that God has elevated a "creature" to a position of "Mediatrix of ALL GRACES" is BLASPHEMY!

But, if you LOVE NOT the Word, and believe "man's" words over Gods, then He will allow you to beleive the LIE.

By pronouncing that Mary was "sinless", the R.C. cult has denyed that Jesus Christ "is come in the flesh".

I John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of GOD: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

II John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

Mary was a decendent of Abraham. As such, she passed on the "seed of Abraham" to Jesus through the FLESH.

Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son, IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH,. and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh."

Hebr. 4:15 "For we have NOT an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in ALL POINTS TEMPTED like as we are, yet WITHOUT SIN."

Hebr 2:16 "For verily He took NOT on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the SEED OF ABRAHAM."

You see, He was born of a woman, in the likeness of sinful flesh, through the seed of Abraham; so that He could be LIKE us in every way! YET WITHOUT SINNING! He became our Saviior.

The Marian dogmas DENY that Jesus Christ came in the Flesh like you and me.

The Marian doctrines are false, and "man" has created a goddes out of a "creature" once again!

The Queen of Heaven, Earth, and the UNIVERS? I think NOT!

Col 2:9 "For in HIM (Jesus Christ) dwelleth ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily."

Col 1:18 "And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that IN ALL THINGS He might have the preeminence."

"I AM THE LORD: THAT IS MY NAME: AND MY GLORY WILL I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER. NEITHER MY PRAISE TO GRAVEN IMAGES."

"When thou prayest say, OUR FATHER which art in heaven......"

In Yeshua (the only mediator between men and God!),

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 03, 2003.

Jay, I am not sure how you are interpretting the scriptures you quoted.

1) Are you saying that Christ was born with a sin nature?

2) As to your end-time scenario, is your interpretation of scripture infallible?

Gail

P.S. I don't have time to further respond to your post, must get to work.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 03, 2003.

Dou you know, Jay:
That an intelligent person only lowers him/her self if he gives plausible replies to the tripe you're posting here? To bother with such contemptible ''biblical wisdom'' as you show is to give the devil a platform on our forum.

Not ONE thing you just said, whether about Fatima, the mother of god, the Church, the Holy Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament or ourselves is more than Catholic-bashing.

Why should faithful catholics give you the time of day? If we needed Bible instruction from fundie fanatics like you, we'd be in a fine stew already; not worth god's mercy.

We are His Holy Church. I'm grateful to God He has permitted us to suffer your hatred publicly. There may be hundreds of lurkers watching, and they'll see for themselves the malformed fruits of sola scriptura obvious in your nonsense. Nothing we could say will illustrate for them how crooked your way is.

Thanks for exposing it to everyone. You've made the devil proud of you; and good Christians worry about ''Bible-thumping'' without the Holy Spirit. If you misapprehend the scriptures, stay out of arguments. All you're apt to do is appear bigotted & possessed of the devil.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2003.

So very sad to hear that Jay was once a Catholic...once putting his lips to the very Body of Christ, then, like Judas, rejecting Him.

We all have a choice. Either read the Holy Scriptures in their fullness and Truth, or pluck phrases and quotes out of context and twist them to your liking. Jay seems to be a follower of Jack Chick or Tony Alamo, or the like.

He cannot trace the history of his beliefs, or he will find that they originated in Catholicism! The Bible, the priesthood, Marian devotion, it's all Scriptural, if you only knew how to read the Scriptures.

You say the Bible says that a woman called Mary "special." Where? In the Catholic Bible, it says that a woman cried out, "Blest is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you!" Well, Jay, the Blessed Virgin Mary was far more than a healthy uterus and pair of breasts! She believed in the Words of the angel, which was sent by God. Blessed is she who heard the word of God and believed! "Be it done unto me according to thy word!" Blest is anyone who hears the Word of God and accepts it. Mary did this perfectly. Jesus wasn't telling the woman that Mary wasn't "special." He was correcting the woman as to what was truly special about His Mother! Not her womb, not her breasts, but her conformity with the Will of the Father.

It is you, Jay, who have entered into a dangerous cult. You utter heresies against the Church which Christ founded upon Peter, our first pope...the Church which is the pillar of Truth...the place where Peter "feeds (Christ's) sheep."

I am heartsick over the way you insult my Mother: His Mother! Even in His last dying gasps, Christ left us His Mother.

What a sad spiritual state you are in.

-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), June 03, 2003.

He is only one of many, Anna. They parted with the faith of the holy apostles and set up mens' faith; and are bound for extinction. These are sects which come to an end here in the world. It isn't coincidence that this one won't reply to strong rebuttals. He has no answer.

He won't reply to your great interpretation. He wants Mary downgraded lower than the devil. You can see why: God placed an implacable emnity between Mary, the Mother Our Redeemer and the serpent of Genesis. She would bear the one who would crush the serpent's head. (Gen 3, :15.) Her seed (Jesus) is the only One we identify in the Bible as defeating the devil. He is Mary's Holy Son.

Therefore, This prophesy points to Mary, since no other woman's ''seed'' is Christ.

Protestants can deny Mary is without sin all they want. But God declared her in emnity with the devil before Adam & Eve were even out of the Garden! She was assured of the devil's hatred for herself and her Son; her mission was to give birth to his conqueror! Her emnity against the serpent would be just a sham, if she had been conceived in sin. She would then have been conceived under the power of the serpent, Satan.

God would be a liar in Gen 3 :15; if Mary had ever sinned.

That's how protestants fail reading the Holy Bible. They forget God's promises.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2003.

I find it amusing how the Marian dogmas are defended so aggressivly and said to have been "the beliefs of the fathers", while the truth is, they were not even made official Catholic error until the 1,500's. 1,500 years after the birth of Christ !

There is NO mention of such blasphemy in the scriptures!

Jesus said nothing of the kind, and in reality He neither gave nor implyed any special treatment to the "woman" that bore him in the flesh.

Yet, this false "doctrine of devils" has gained more and more steam of late, with apparition after apparition, leading men not to "preach the gospel" but rather, devote oneself to Mary and to the vain repetition of the "rosary", to be chanted "like the heathen".

Marian dogma has gone so far as to attribute powers to Mary that only God can have and as Isa 42:8 says, "My glory will I NOT give to another".

Still, the abominations abound, suggesting (though falsly) that Mary has the power to:

* reign in paradise; whose mighty name causes heaven to rejoice and hell to tremble

* from that throne of mercy where thou sittest as Queen O Mary, turn down thy pitiful eyes on us, and on our families.

* keep back the arm of justice of thy indignant Son

* make us worthy of the promises of Christ

* receive, on the top of Golgotha, the last drop of that divine blood.

* to thee we lift up our hands, crying for MERCY

* O Mary, what dost it cost thee to save us

* Thou Mary extendest thy dominion as far as the heavens expand, the earth and all the creatures that people it are subject to thee

* Thy power even reaches hell, and thou alone, O Mary, canst save us from the devil's grasp

* thou art almighty by grace, and therefore thou canst save us

* thy divine child we behold on thy knees

* To you O Mary, are known ALL the needs of your people, and of the whole church

* Mother of truth and seat of wisdom, dissipate the clouds of error which darken our minds

* O Mary, stir up and confirm in the hearts of those that govern the nations a clear notion of their responsibilities

* O Mary, use us as you wish to accomplish your designs upon the world

* Impelled by the anxieties of the world we cast ourselves into your arms.

* O Crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths.

and there are many many more blasphemous statements!

Mary is given the power of God the Father and Holy Spirit! Only the Holy Spirit can "bathe our minds with the eternal truth (the WORD OF GOD)

Only the Holy Spirit can "stir up the hearts of those that govern the nations"

Only the Holy Spirit can "dissipate the clouds of error which darken our minds"

ONLY God the Father "received the last drop of Jesus divine blood on Golgotha" !!!

Only Jesus can "save us from the devil's grasp"

Only GOD "is the seat of Mercy and TRUTH"

What blasphemy! And the followers of this false cult are BLIND and FOLLOWING it without even realizing the deception!

And they PRAY to who????

TO MARY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus said, when thou prayest, say OUR FATHER .........

He also said:

#1 THou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind.

#2 Love thy neighbor as thy self.

Which one is Mary? Why does the false cult say to pray and devote one's self to Mary ? It is totally un-scriptural!

They have indeed created a god of their OWN devices! They are all together become un-profitable!

GOD have mercy on this idolatrous generation!

"In VAIN they do worship me, making for doctrines the commandments of men"

COME OUT OF HER (that Harlot that sits on the 7 hills of ROme)AND BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Jesus Christ (the ONLY Mediator between men and God!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 03, 2003.

Hi, Jaw
Yes, we love her and honor her. No one's dumb enough to worship her. That's a sin. The devil, of course hates her. You & he see eye to eye.

The devil loves reprobates, and it begins to dawn on me, you are one. No saving you now, without some real fancy intervention. Hmmm . . . By whom?

O Holy Mother of God, Immaculate Virgin Mary,
We beseech your holy intercession on behalf of all wayward sheep in the spiritual wasteland. Here is one; your son Jayw Genttle; a reprobate. He has given himself up to the holy wrath of Our Father Almighty; offended by blasphemies against His Holy Son by such men. They who would poison the minds and hearts of His faithful; slandering and raising scandal against the Immaculate Heart of Mary the beloved mother of Jesus.

Pray, O Holy Virgin and Mother; for the salvation of Jay and his masters who launch invective against you; because; your Holy Son indeed said from the cross: ''They know not what they are doing''. They act in ignorance; willing to risk hell in defiance of a heaven where You are Queen of Angels and Saints.

They know not anything that they do or say! If they knew of whom they spoke they would honor and cherish you, O Holy and most Blessed Mary; but they live in the shadow of their father the Lord of Flies. They hear his voice screaming blasphemy. They love to hear his lies, as he distorts the Holy Scriptures. They learned from him to denounce the Mother of God; holiest creature in God's Creation. She who consented by grace to God Almighty's plan for our salvation. She who prays for each one of us her children, at the feet of her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Her prayer is more powerful than all the frenzy of Hell, and devils groan when she comes before Jesus Our Holy Redeemer to plead for her faithful children on earth.

The children; some who were born of sin and of unbelieving hearts; pay their homage to the devil; and show their hatred for Mary in eager imitation of him who is the old serpent. He glories in their follies; and she prays for their salvation still.

Great and forever Blessed is the Holy Virgin Mother; Mary the Queen of Angels and Saints! Pray for us, Dear Mother; Most Holy; that we ALL may be made worthy of the promises of Christ; Catholics and protestants alike! We implore always your holy intercession and help!
AMEN!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2003.

Nice rant Eugene, but void of all scripture and truth as usual. Way to make it up as you go! Not unlike the false god and goddess worship of ancient Babylon!

But, the more sure word of God is a witness against you.

* call no man your father * there is one mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ * infant baptism: you made that up * purgatory: made that up too * the transubstantiation of the mass: made up as well * Marian dogmas: totally false and un-scriptural * priesthood for today: that's been done away with in Christ * no graven images unto yourself: totally violated that one * when you pray say, Our Father in heaven....: you really messed that one up * priests can't marry, but must burn: totally messed that one up too * abstain from certain foods by command: un-scriptural again * parying to the dead: broke another command; no necromancy * profess sins to a priest and then say prayers for them: NOT! BiBLE! * perform an excorcism at a baptism: not bloody likely, not bible * etc. etc. etc. I am sure there are more.

Sorry, but "man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD"

"Babylon the great is fallen is fallen" it coming friends!

"COME OUT OF HER,AND BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS"

She is a harlot, and is drunk with the blood of the saints! Killing more true bible believing Christians than ANY other organization on the face of the earth!

Don't forget the dark ages! Torture, Murder, and all manner of "dead men's bones".

In Christ Jesus (the only MEDIATOR between men and GOD),

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 03, 2003.

So Eugene, are you honestly saying that you believe that God the Father has given Mary the ability to do what the Holy Spirit does?

She can:

"dissipate the clouds of error that darken our minds"

and

"bathe our minds with the eternal truths" ????????

Cause what you are talking about is God giving to Mary, (one of his creatures) His glory.

Even though He says in Isaiah 42:8

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my GLORY will I not give to another, neither myh praise to graven images."

and that's not all Eugene, you Roman Catholics believe that she can do it all! She is "like the Most High" is she not ??????

Sound like Lucifer's gig to me!

In Him (no voodoo, necromancy, blasphemy, etc.etc.)

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 03, 2003.

No, Jay. You are very deliberately misrepresenting all that the church teaches about Our Blessed mother. You do it for effect. We don't adore her. We have no faith in her to save us, nor to do the work of God, either the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

We know her for the Immaculate Virgin and Mother she truly is. We give her our petitions, but our faith is 100% in her divine Son, because without Him, she is nothing. But thanks be to God, she will never be without Him, she's the closest human being to Him. Her mother's heart is united to His most Sacred Heart.

Eat your heart out, reprobate.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2003.

But, the more sure word of God is a witness against you.(A reprobate's warning to Catholic faithful.)

* call no man your father *God the Father Almighty is no man. Father is a simple, respectful term which takes nothing away from God's glory.. there is one mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ * Therefore, keep your preaching, we need you not. infant baptism: you made that up *It's an article of faith in Christ's Holy Church. We believe it, because Jesus Christ commanded it. purgatory: made that up too *Jesus believed in it; that's good enough for us. transubstantiation of the mass: made up as well *Our Lord does the work; we have the faith. Pity about reprobates; you haven't any faith at all. Marian dogmas: totally false and un- scriptural* Catholic dogmas; learn the correct terminology. They are defined because they're true. priesthood for today: that's been done away with in Christ*If it were up to you; but it never has been. It's Christ's alone to ordain. no graven images unto yourself: totally violated that*We have all the permission necessary; Christ's & His holy apostles. Images are holy; whereas you are unholy. when you pray say, Our Father in heaven. you really messed that one up We pray Our Father every day and he hears us. Hallelujah! * priests can't marry, but must burn: totally messed that one up too Christ didn't marry and never burned. Priests are ordained to be Christ's holy ministers. You should burn so brightly, Rep. * abstain from certain foods by command: un- scriptural again *We do it for self-denial and love of God. As One people, the people of God on earth. Sola scriptura is what's unscriptural. praying to the dead: broke another command; no necromancy * Souls in heaven live eternally; they're not dead. Necromancyy is magic, not prayer. Learn the definitions, rep. profess sins to a priest and then say prayers for them: NOT! BiBLE!How does one ''profess'' sins? Learn English, rep.* perform an excorcism at a baptism: not bloody likely, not bible * Baptism is being Born Again not an exorcism. You have rocks in yer head, reprobate. etc. etc. etc. I am sure there are more. If you can name more, name. I'll be here to deliver you from your ignorance and pride. Pride goes before a fall, reprobate. You'll surely FALL.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2003.

Eugene,

Once again you rant in error. No need to get personal though. A little bit of scripture (truth) would be nice though.

As for the doctrine of baptism of infants, you said, "baptism is being born again, not an excorcism"

Then why do you perform one at it?

and , what does "baptism" have to do with being Born Again?

Can you show me which "scripture" you base that conviction on?

Show me ANY scripture that says that an infant should be baptized?

"AFTER you believe, you are to be baptized, as the "pledge of a good conscience towards God". There is NO PLACE in the BIBle that commands the baptism of someone that cannot hear the WORd of God, and BELIEVE!

Eph. 1:13-15 (speaking of Jesus Christ) "In whom ye also TRUSTED (can a baby trust?) after that ye heard the Word of TRUTH (This is the Word of GOD), the gospel of your salvation: (can a baby hear the gospel? the Word of God?) in whom also after that ye believed, (can a baby beleive?) ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. WHich is the EARNEST (deposit) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchaed possession, unto the praise of his glory."

1st. you hear the Word of God, and believe and trust what it says, (can a baby do this? NO)

THEN! as a proof from God, you are SEALED with "that Holy Spirit of PROMISE! This is the comforter. The ONE that TELLS US WE HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN!

No, this infant baptism is actually a doctrine of the flesh! It is man-made and was designed to take the power of salvation away from God and put it into the hands of sinful men.

No where in scripture can this false practice be found. And it is because of this false practice, that un-regenerated men were assumed to be saved, and allowed to be added into the church! From this eventually came all of the corruption and sin of the Roman Catholics (ie, Inquisitions, Crusades, false doctrines of devils, false worship, false understanding of the Lord's supper, false understanding of Mary, the other saints, use of statues and other graven images in the church etc. etc.)

the CORRECT understanding of the term "born again" and the use of "water" as in John chapter 3 is this:

The first birth is of "water", of "the flesh" as Jesus clearly relates the "water" to the "flesh", "that which is born of the "flesh" is "flesh" as being the FIRST BIRTH, and then Ye Must Be Born AGAIN , this time in the Spirit.

This is clear to the Spirit filled person, once they have been "born again", but it may not be easily seen by the "un-regenerated" man, since "But the natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither "can" he know them, for they are spiritually discerned."

The un-regenerated man, operating in the flesh only, can only think in terms of the flesh, and as such, the false understanding of the "water" mentioned in John Chpt. 3, has been falsly inturpreted to have something to do with "water baptism".

It is clearly spoken of and related to "the birth in the flesh". When a woman is about to give birth, her "water" breaks, and the baby comes forth. Unless a man is born in the "flesh/of water" and then at some point in the Spirit, through repentance and "for whosoever CALLS upon the Lord, shall be SAVED".

Acts. 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ" They heard the WORD of TRUTH, then they were commanded by Peter to REPENT. Can a baby "hear" the gospel of its salvation, and then REPENT? NO

Acts 2:41 "Then, they that gladly RECEIVED his WORD (they heard, and believed (received) the WORD; THEN.....) WERE BAPTIZED"

Acts 8:13 "Then Simon himself BELEIVED also: and when he was baptized (this was AFTER he BELIEVED) he continued with Philip...."

"After" Philip opened the scriptures and preached Jesus Christ to the eunuch: Acts 8:36 "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, IF THOU BELIEVEST WITH ALL THINE HEART, thou mayest> And he answered and said, I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD." Can a BABY believe? NO

Acts 10:44 "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on them which heard the word" (can a baby hear and receive the word?)

47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, whih have RECEIVED the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (they had ALREADY received the Holy Ghost!, then were baptized!)

"John indeed baptized with "water"; but YE shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost"

Acts 16:30 "And brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, BELIEVE (can a baby beleive?) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the WORD OF THE LORD (the TRUTH; THY WORD IS TRUTH) , and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was BAPTIZED, he and all his, straightway. They were BAPTIZED , AFTER they heard and received the WORD of GOD!

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, BELIEVED on the LORD and all his house, and many of the Corinthians hearing BELIEVED, and were BAPTIZED. (hear, believe, then..... be baptized)

THis baptism of the infant, and the assumption that they become BELIEVERs and receive the Holy Spirit from that is false, and it is because of this false doctrine that un-regenerated men were allowed into the early church of Rome.

In Christ ,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

As usual, Jay, you call all your prejudiced biblical interpretation ''truth''. None of your flights of fancy can stand the test of truth; but we'll come back to that later.

Plenty of text-proof is available to show an unprejudiced reader that baptism is what makes us born again. How you, who call yourself a Bible Christian (bibliolater) manage to overlook this proof, who knows?

We all know of John 3,:5; which says born again of water (baptism) and the Spirit.

You may deny it but it's clear and it's in the Bible. Also in Collossians 2, :12 Paul tells us, ''For you were buried (dead) together with Him in Baptism; and in Him also ROSE AGAIN,--''

Baptism is death with a new birth in faith. We are BORN AGAIN.

Not by some queer new commitment to Christ out of the blue, like bibliolaters think. By Holy Baptism.

As for the infant; why do you call for proof that infants were baptised? No infant ever born was born without a soul. It's the soul which is born again in baptism. Not the glands nor the brain, nor the physical age. Age is a condition of the body.

Baptism gives rebirth in our souls; since Nicodemus very aptly wondered, how can we re-enter our mother's womb? If an infant has an immortal soul, he/she can truly be born again, by water and the Spirit. That's biblical to the nth degree, Jay. What's more, you will never find it in the Bible said that infants never received baptism.

Faith is a gift from God, and He can infuse it just as surely in a baby's soul as He can in an elderly man. So this condition is irrelevant for valid baptism. The child who is baptised has the Church at his baptism answering for his faith. It exists already (in the soul) in full potential. This is a teaching from the beginning. It's taught by the apostles.

Your bogus interpretation of John, 3-- ''false understanding of the water mentioned in John Chpt. 3, has been falsly inturpreted to have something to do with water baptism.'' -- It's false; & makes utterly no sense. The Church has given us, the faithful, the true interpretation by the authority of the Holy Spirit.

You don't know Him. And--You're not a saint.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

off i

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

Eugene,

Your copmment that what I said "makes no sense" to you is very telling. To you it is "foolishness", for "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are "spiritually" discerned."

You need to be BORN AGAIN eugene. You think that you are "rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thour art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked"

"I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

You might get a warm and fuzzy feeling when you follow the "traditions of men", but the WORD of GOD is a witness against you.

"Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to HIS mercy HE saved us, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION, AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST."

Salvation is something that GOD gives you WHEN you REPENT and "call upon the name of the LORD". It is not imparted by a "man", and especially not to an infant.

You must :

#1 hear the gospel of your salvation #2 repent of your sinful life #3 Believe and call upon the name of the LORD.

and then...............he gives you the PROOF that you have been redeemed. The Holy Spirit, the "earnest of our inheritance". And you become BORN AGAIN.

"If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE. Old things pass away, behold, all things become new.

This cannot happen to an infant. YOu are just kidding our self.

"having a FORM OF godliness, but denying the power thereof"

In Him,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

Your copmment that what I said "makes no sense" to you is very telling. To you it is "foolishness", for "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are "spiritually" discerned."

actually jay, eugene is FAR more advanced in his spiritual understanding than you are. i can tell you from the single debate i've had with him that he makes you look like a five year old waving your stick of scriptural misinterpretation.

you come here and ad hominem attack us with a hint of sola scriptera, while quoting verses and interpretations which show that you dont believe that all of the Bible is divinely inspired. you would do well to heed the words of eugene and learn something. even if you dont convert, perhaps your faith will grow beyond the mere seed it is now.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 04, 2003.

Thank you paul; I have no right; only the Holy Spirit. The Church gave us all truth in our learning of scripture; and the Holy Spirit guards the Church. We are the children of the Church of the apostles. We only benefit from that light the Holy Spirit sheds on the Church. Jay, unfortunately, has to read the Bible by mortal means. His ''gospel'' is the gospel of men. Men who rebelled against the truth.

One word to jaw,

You quoted: ''Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy HE saved us, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION''

Good for you. My Douay-Rheims edition says the ''bath of regeneration''; and yours ''washing''. Both references to the water of baptism, Jay. Your own Bible says baptism is made by God to save us. Regeneration is a word meaning re-birth; being Born Again in baptism! You scored an ACE!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

Nice try Paul, but you have to be Born Again in order to understand the Bible.

No wonder your so called "church" didn't even allow the Bible to be read by the blind followers for many many years.

And also, conducting the false sacrifices in Latin must have helped in keeping them from knowing what you were up to up there, with your backs to them.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

in HIM (the Christ, the ONLY Mediator between men and GOD!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

To Jay I would reply, your swell quote here:

''You might get a warm and fuzzy feeling when you follow the traditions of men, but the Word of GOD is a witness against you.''

--Is almost accurate. --We follow apostolic Tradition, a sacred tradition. Men were the ones who spread the Holy Gospel over all the world. Catholic men. The Holy Bible was given the world by the same apostles and disciples. At first by word (oral), and after some time, also written. The same apostles (ALL MEN) were given power by the Holy Spirit to ordain new men, their successors in this world; to carry on the work of evangelizing. All Catholics!

Therefore, the Word of God left God in heaven by the Spirit of God; and into the hands of men, His apostles. The word ''apostle'' means SENT-- They were SENT by God, to spread the Word of God. The Bible wasn't SENT.

The Holy Bible was written later. We know the Bible, and we know Sacred Tradition as well. Both from the apostles of Jesus Christ.

And now, Hallelujah! You are at last receiving it, too! --From us in this forum. What a warm, fuzzy feeling that gives us!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

Eugene,

your half baked exegesis is a joke !

The WORD of GOD is the BIBLE. And your so called "church"'s doctrines are contrary to it!

It has, just like the Pharisees, "transgressed the commandments of God by its tradtions"

The word was given at first by word, and then written. To say that your traditions, (ie infant baptism) that are clearly contrary to the WORD of GOD, are also the "word of god" is a LIE.

Never did Jesus Christ quote the "traditions of men", but always the written WORD OF GOD.

He then rebuked the Pharisees and scribes (Matt 15:3-14) telling them that they worship Him in VAIN. As do the Roman Catholics. "teaching for doctrines, (exaclty like infant baptism), the commandments of men"

He then called them blind leaders of the blind. And this also is an accurate statement pertaining to the Roman Catholics.

You, Eugene, for instance, are a follower of the blind papacy leaders, who have, over the years, taken "man's" word over God's WORD!

That is why I have correctly said, the word of God is a witness against you!

you can spin it any way you want, but the fact remains that you have transgressed the commandments of God with your man-made tradtions, and then called them God's word. This is a lie.

The commandment is "call no man your father", and then you call priests "father".

The commandment is, "make no graven image of anything in heaven or on the earth or beneath the earth for your selves", and then you ignore it and make statues, and bow down and kneel down to them. Telling yourself that you don't worship them, but GOD knows better.

The commandment is, "beleive and then be baptized", and you insist on baptizing infants, and saying that YOU can impart the Holy Spirit when ever you want, without regarding the WORD of GOD

The commandment is: "there is ONE mediator between men and GOd, the man Jesus Christ; and you make your own mediator, and then call her Queen of Heaven

The commandment is: "when thou prayest, say "our Father ....." and you transgress the commandment, and say that you can pray to Mary, and any of a multitude of people, that are not gods. There is NO scripture to justify it!

The commandment is: Thou shalt love the Lord thy GOD with all thy heart and soul and thy neighbor as thy self, and yet you pray to Mary and encourage spiritual "devotion" to her. This transgresses the commandment.

The commandment is: call no man your father, and you call a "man" HOLY FATHER, which is what Jesus Christ called God the Father in John 17:11.

The commandment is: you shall not be a necromancer, and yet you insist that it is alright to pray to the dead, and ask for them to intervene for you to Jesus, who, again is the ONLY MEDIATOR between men and GOD>

The command is: when you pray, do not use vain repetition as the heathen do; and yet you encourage the drone prayers of the rosary, over and over "like the heathen", praying to a false god, Mary, saying over and over and over, Hail Mary blah blah blah over and over.

It is a man-made religion that has reduced God to being a thing and not the Creator and Lord that He is.

you hide behind history and tradition, and yet your own History is full of adultry and fornication, and murders, and tortures, and all manner of "dead men's bones".

The Roman Catholic cult is the epdiomy of the worst of the Pharisees, and scribes and Saduces in one.

TOTal vanity of man't mind.

"Ye shall know them by their fruit"

look at the inquisitions and you will see the dark, satanic roots, hidden by white wash on the outside of the sepulchres.

In CHrist Jesus (the TRUTH shall set you FREE; "thy WORD is TRUTH")

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

Dear J,
If you're looking for the door, don't let me hold you back. You are being indoctrinated against your will. By the Holy Spirit who brought you here. You say:' ''The WORD of GOD is the BIBLE. And your so called doctrines are contrary to it!''

That would be true, if Jesus Christ had written the Bible, and sent it to convert all nations. But Jesus sent our Church; in the persons of His holy disciples and apostles. They recorded what the Word of God according to Jesus Christ is, and they were His first missionaries. We have that Bible courtesy of the holy Spirirt who entrusted the Word to men. The Catholic Church; who later collected the inspired works, authorised the canon and had priests and monks HAND WRITE all of it.

But, this Word was with them from the start. And they comprised the Church that Christ built on Peter. The first Pope. Your Bible is the work of our Church; what you haven't changed to suit your heresies. Your own blessed ancestors all lived and worshipped in the same Catholic Church for a millennium and a half!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

where did you come up with that garbage?

Some catholic history book no doubt.

No, the WORD is for every Christian. God saw to that. The early church was not Roman Catholic, that mess came later.

The early church was comprised of Born Again Christians, that knew what Jesus meant when He said, "do this in REMEMBRANCE" of me. They also realized that the ONCE for ALL sacrifice of Christ did away with sacrifice, since He said, "it is finished", and the veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom.

This signified the end of the sacficicial system and the priesthood. And now, just like then, "every priest stands daily, often times (over and over as in the 'mass') making sacrifices which can NEVER take away sins."

The early church was not Catholic. They were a part of the "church" of Jesus CHrist. All believers that have been Born Again.

you are so brain washed by your traditions, that you could never see that clearly. You worship in vain, the commandments of men.

But, hopefully, God, peradventure will grant you repetnance to the acknowledging of the TRUTH (thy WORD is TRUTH) so that you can recover yourself out of the snare of the devil, who takes you captive at his will.

Let's not forget, "those of Berea were more noble than those of Thesolonica, in that they searched the scriptures DAILY to see if those things were so.

If you do the same, you will see that "those things (ie, your false doctrines of devils) are not "so", but are in fact trangressing the commandments of God.

But, keep believing in "men" rather than God. The day will come when you will realize that you have been following man's wisdom, and not the Truth of GOD>

The TRUTH is here for us, but you have to abandon your love of the flesh, and LOVE the TRUTH "thy WORD is TRUTH".

In Him (the LIVING WORD),

St. jay

p.s. you don't impress me, because I have seen the fruit that your trees produce. Homosexuality, adultry, fornication, ......like whited sepulchres. They look good on the outside, but inside, .....................dead men's bones and all manner of uncleanness!!!

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

Do you honelsty think for a minute that the early church born again believers werer praying to Mary ?????

Making statues to Mary ????

baptizing infants ????

Calling men Holy Father ???

No, eugene, what you belong to now is the Roman Catholic CULT of Satan. he has had his way with it for hundreds of years!

He has mixed the ancient pagan gods, added worship of the dead.

The scriptures are true, let every thing else be judged by them!

if we look at your church compared to the early Christian's church, we see a BIG BIG differance.

yours is the result of hundreds of years of error upon error upon man's thoughts, and man' ideas, and sinful men being added to the church through the false doctrines of devils.

Your house is built upon SAND!

In Him (the ONLY Mediator!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

Jay, My friend,
May God give you peace!

You have problems seeing reality. ''I have seen the fruit that your trees produce. Homosexuality, adultry, fornication, --like whited sepulchres. They look good on the outside, but inside, dead men's bones and all manner of uncleanness!!!''

Do many Baptists and ministers of your type have problems with sin? Why did Jimmy Carter quit the Baptist Church after a whole lifetime of being a pillar? Because of homosexual movements within the sect. He finally couldn't stomach what he was seeing! The wonderful ''evangelists'', Jim Bakker. Or Jimmy Swaggert. All high-living, money-grubbing, card-carrying Baptists! Swaggart drove a Jaguar convertible, WHITE, like a whited tombstone on wheels; around the red-light districts, until he was caught by the cops.

Nice fruit, Jay!!!

I only remind you because you have a case of the Holy Rollers; giving out salvation stamps in these ghettoes of the Catholic Church. But we understand. You're doing it for Christ! Yeah; beating up on His Holy Mother; for Christ! Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

Getting back to your hostile takeover of this thread:
[Do I believe] ''in the early Church born again believers were praying to Mary? She had many friends in the early Church. All Catholics, mostly saints. (Born again believers are a recent phenomenon, all descendents of Catholics, though.) Yes; they had to have prayed to her when she was assumed body & soul up to heaven and crowned Queen of angels and saints. That is when Marian devotion started, truly it is.

''Calling men Holy Father--?'' Actually, calling HOLY MEN Holy Father. You got it. They did.

[Catholic faith] ''mixed the ancient pagan gods, added worship of the dead.'' I didn't expect to see you lying like a rug. None of that's true, and you must be crazy to think so. This shows you're losing it, Jay.

''we look at your church compared to the early Christian's Church, we see a BIG BIG difference.'' --Let me see it, if you have a picture. We know what it was like. Yours came along 1,600 years too late to be founded by Christ. All your Gentile ancestors were Catholics, judging by your name. Unless it's a pen-name / (Oink!)

''Your house is built upon SAND!'' Now standing triumphant 2,003 or so years. She'll never fall, because Jesus Christ said she wouldn't. (Matt, 16 :18-19) and, (Matt, 28:20) Jesus built only on Rock. Another name for Peter.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

off,

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2003.

where did you come up with that garbage? Some catholic history book no doubt.

ALL history prior to the reformation was kept by the catholic church. where did YOU get YOUR garbage. some person who made it up no doubt.

No, the WORD is for every Christian. God saw to that. The early church was not Roman Catholic, that mess came later.

actually, the first church was a catholic church. the word catholic (latin) means united. the original church, in aramaic, was called the united church. thus, translation to latin brought about the catholic church, but this was a mere language switch of the SAME church.

The early church was comprised of Born Again Christians, that knew what Jesus meant when He said, "do this in REMEMBRANCE" of me. They also realized that the ONCE for ALL sacrifice of Christ did away with sacrifice, since He said, "it is finished", and the veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom.

HAHAHAHA, show me the words, 'you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior' and i'll THINK about believing you. what youre saying isnt even in the Bible. also, lets not parse words, when Jesus said 'do this in rememberance of me' he meant eat his body and drink his blood, no reference to sacrifice. see also 'unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life in you' or do you think that Jesus was prone to contradicting himself?

This signified the end of the sacficicial system and the priesthood. And now, just like then, "every priest stands daily, often times (over and over as in the 'mass') making sacrifices which can NEVER take away sins."

again unless you can back that quote up with a credible source im going to have to call a fat BS on you. when james wrote his book, after paul, the point of the faith without works passage was to set right a grave misinterpretation of paul's words. see, paul never says no works should be done for salvation, he just says that we cannot be SAVED by works. we are to be SAVED by FAITH which is manifested in, fulfilled through, and justified by our WORKS. or perhaps you think you are qualified to discredit parts of the Bible, like James?

The early church was not Catholic. They were a part of the "church" of Jesus CHrist. All believers that have been Born Again.

born again specifically refers to BAPTISM, which is a rebirth into the Spirit of God. I've been baptised, and who are you to judge whether or not my baptism is valid? if im wrong, God will slap me on the wrist and let me in, if youre wrong, peter is going to send you packing for your blasphemous ways.

you are so brain washed by your traditions, that you could never see that clearly. You worship in vain, the commandments of men.

um, God gave the commandments, remember? you know, burning tornado throwing lightning bolts? besides, Christ didnt come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it. again, it seems to me that you call Christ a liar...

But, keep believing in "men" rather than God. The day will come when you will realize that you have been following man's wisdom, and not the Truth of GOD

that day came a LONG time ago, i was eight, and that was the day i converted out of the snares of protestantism.

p.s. you don't impress me, because I have seen the fruit that your trees produce. Homosexuality, adultry, fornication, ......like whited sepulchres. They look good on the outside, but inside, .....................dead men's bones and all manner of uncleanness!!!

actually, your church has a higher percentage of homosexual abusive ministers, but seeing as our church is 150% the size of all the protestant churches added together, yours doesnt get a whole lot of media time.

Do you honelsty think for a minute that the early church born again believers werer praying to Mary ?????

gee, during her lifetime they came to her to ask her to speak with Jesus and change his mind about the wedding plans. and he changed his mind for HER, and not for anyone else. if mary held such a spot of high esteem in the eyes of Jesus, then why do you slander her name? do you not know the wrath you incur from the son when you preach blasphemy against his beloved mother? Calling men Holy Father ???

ive already addressed this twice, youve chosen to ignore me, therefore i wont explain it to your blinded eyes again. scroll up. the word is ABBA, not just father.

No, eugene, what you belong to now is the Roman Catholic CULT of Satan. he has had his way with it for hundreds of years!

no he hasnt. remember, Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church. if the catholic church ever belonged to Christ then the gates of hell will not prevail... unless here again you think Jesus was lying to make us feel good???

He has mixed the ancient pagan gods, added worship of the dead.

and just what pagan Gods would those be? besides, i worship no dead. you worship your Bible in the form of Sola scriptera. which is worse, respecting great people who have died, or falling into a path of religious devotion to a book which never says SOLA SCRIPTERA. get this straight: the idea of sola scriptera is an idea created by MEN!!!

The scriptures are true, let every thing else be judged by them!

funny that you should say this after you call Jesus a liar, blaspheme his mother, and call whole books (like james) uninspired.

if we look at your church compared to the early Christian's church, we see a BIG BIG differance.

please, explain to me the rite of the mass in place in the early church... bet you dont know...

Your house is built upon SAND!

funny, our church has 1.2 BILLION members. what is your total number? five thousand? six? the sand you think you see, is just the scum of your church laying around our rock, peter and his apostolic line.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 04, 2003.

You guys should read all of your responses, its like some sort of idolatry. You've turned a spiritual aim into an intellectual debate (which is fine I guess) but please don't think it has anything to do with "good" or "evil"

-- Jeremy Steel (steeljeremy@yahoo.com), June 04, 2003.

Funny how you take a creature such as Mary, a human being, give her the powers of a god, by a popes decreee only, call her sinless, again by "man's" decree, pray to her, devote 80% of your shrines to her, make statues to her, showing the Lord as a baby on her knee or in her arms.

Then, when someone complains that it is idol worship, and blasphemy, you try to say that the person is not showing respect to the Lord's mother!

you people are a joke! Wake up ! You are worshipping the "creatrue" rather than the CREATOR!

Do you think ANY chaste woman that the Lord sent an angel to would have refused to do the will of GOD? After being personally visited by an ANGEL?

And do you think that Mary had options? She was chosen, set apart,. She was GOING TO DO the WILL OF GOD!

If she did not say yes, the ROCKS would have cryed out!

Give me a break! Co-Redemptrix ! Mediatrix !

Dispenser of ALL graces!

Giving her the power and glory of GOD!

May God have mercy on your souls! you are believing the LIE of Satan!

The supposed apparitions are the Lying wonders of the devil! Crying statues? Bleeding statues? No, that's not God, that is the "god of this world", and he knows how to attract the FLESH!

Satan entered into the church of Rome, through Constantine.

"conquer through the cross" he was told in a vision. That goes against EVERTHING Christ taught, and yet you embrace it!

No, Constantine saw a vision alright, but it was a Satanic Vision!

And the people of Fatima saw the same! And the people will see more "visions" of this "Queen of Heaven", the same "Queen of Heaven" taht they worshipped in the O.T.

Wake up! and "come out of her my people"

in Christ,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 04, 2003.

We don't condemn you, Jay. Your spiritual thirst is good. This is a thirst for truth.

I give all of you (fallen Catholics) credit in Christian Hope; you are striving after the Lord. In charity I would allow your frustrations to run out; because you hear the call of Our Saviour.

You live in a dark cellar of Christian unhappiness. Where is the joy Jesus promised you if only you beleived in Him? In a book? In attacking your brethren?

You have just your constant hatred; anti-Catholic frustration, instead of the blessed existence He meant for His beloved followers. ''Love one another as I have loved you,'' is the true Christian law. You came to us as a killer. Not to love us, to condemn us. We're disgusting to you.

We hope in Christ to somehow include you in our holy number; our Communion of Saints. This communion has for Queen and Mother the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. YOUR mother, Jay.

Too bad you're too proud to love the mother who prays for you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

When I pray, I will say "abba, Father", and I will go "boldly to the throne of grace", as the WORD teaches me to do.

Your false carnal "Mother of God" idol is the same "Queen of Heaven" that they worshipped of old. "there is nothing new under the sun". Satan truly has you "burning incense to the Queen of Heaven", and once again God says, "that they may provoke me to anger".

Mary is not involved with this present world, nor can she be, for of the "dead" the more sure Word of God says, Eccl. 9 "the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward;.... neither have they any more a portion For EVER in ANY thing that is done under the sun.

The Roman Catholic "cult" has created a god, out of a "creature", of "man's device".

I say what I say out of love. I love you enough to tell you the truth! Jesus said, "sanctify them with thy TRUTH, thy WORD is TRUTH"

To stand quietly by as everyone admires the "emporer's new clothes" is a LIE. The emporer is blind, and naked, and wretched! How will he know if everyone remains silent?

The Marisn "dogmas' are ANTICHRIST! They deny that Jesus Christ "is come in the flesh".

Mary was a "creature" of God, that was used to perform the "will of the Father". To elevate HER to "co-redemtptrix" is an act of the flesh!

You can fall back on the "mother church" all you want. Jesus said, "by their fruit ye shall know them". The fruit of the Roman Catholic "church" is rotten and an abomination!

How could the true "church of Christ" have EVER allowed the murders and tortures and theft, and blasphemy of this obviously false counterfeit organization ?

Paul warned us in I Tim, that "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith..............forbidding to marry (R.C. cult) and commanding to abstain from meats (R.C. cult).

It is the more sure Word of GOD and it is a witness against the Roman Catholic cult!

It is in your bible too, as well as:

* call no man your father

* Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY graven image, or ANY LIKENESS of ANY THING that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

* Hear the gospel of your salvatioin, believe....then be baptized!

* "and every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes (over and over) the same sacrifices which can NEVER take away sins: But this man (Jesus Christ), after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE for SINS FOR EVER!, sat down on the right hand of GOD.

and on and on...............all carnal, and of the flesh and vanity.

This man-made system of do's and don'ts has replaced God, and has fulfiled yet another scripture, "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"

"Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. "the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her."

In Christ Jesus (my KING!),

St. jay (of the Royal Priesthood!)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

jeremy,

you said You've turned a spiritual aim into an intellectual debate (which is fine I guess) but please don't think it has anything to do with "good" or "evil"

well, for some people intellectual debate over such things as this is the way we expand our faith. by defending our faith we learn more about its subtleties. everytime i explain a nuance of the rich tradition of catholic faith, my own faith grows and becomes stronger. flexing spiritual muscle is food for the soul, it helps us to grow as we walk God's path.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

Jay,

Funny how you take a creature such as Mary, a human being, give her the powers of a god, by a popes decreee only,

WE DONT GIVE HER THE POWERS OF GOD. PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND. youre telling US what WE believe. if you would have compassion and love for your bretheren, as eugene so beautifully put, then you would observe what we truly believe, as opposed to believing some lie.

call her sinless, again by "man's" decree, pray to her,

what hurts your faith so bad that mary might have been blameless? why do you think that Jesus HAD to come from sinful flesh? Mary was pure so that Jesus would come only from purity. there was nothing of sin in either. ive already talked about the praying part, and you ignored that, i get tired of your little games of never listening jay. you have the intellect of a fifth grader when it comes to debate.

devote 80% of your shrines to her, make statues to her, showing the Lord as a baby on her knee or in her arms.

i dont think youve seen enough churches to know the compositions of our shrines. there are no shrines to mary. a shrine with a statue of mary and Jesus as a child remind us of the unique relationship between the Lord and his mother. or do you think that Jesus did not honor his mother? do you think he was a sinner? Then, when someone complains that it is idol worship, and blasphemy, you try to say that the person is not showing respect to the Lord's mother!

its true, you are blaspheming the Lords mother. you have no respect for her, and as such you spew falshoods about the respect she deserves for accepting the motherhood of Jesus.

Do you think ANY chaste woman that the Lord sent an angel to would have refused to do the will of GOD? After being personally visited by an ANGEL?

the question would be, do you think that EVERY chaste woman would accept that it was God, and have the faith to endure the pregnancy without an apparent father? no.

And do you think that Mary had options? She was chosen, set apart,. She was GOING TO DO the WILL OF GOD!

you acknowledge her as chosen, and yet have no respect for her. funny combination youve got going there. but she did have a choice. we all have free will.

Give me a break! Co-Redemptrix ! Mediatrix !

these are titles which you have created in your slanderous ways. these are NOT catholic titles. take your lies elsewhere if you refuse to give them up.

The supposed apparitions are the Lying wonders of the devil! Crying statues? Bleeding statues? No, that's not God, that is the "god of this world", and he knows how to attract the FLESH!

so what you are saying is that God has no power to perform miracles in this world any more? are you so great that you can assign which power God has? you rule the universe? didnt think so.

Satan entered into the church of Rome, through Constantine. "conquer through the cross" he was told in a vision. That goes against EVERTHING Christ taught, and yet you embrace it!

constantine was defending himself and his people. had he lost, there wouldnt be christians today. youd be a muslim. he had a vision which showed his army winning with a cross painted on their shields and it WORKED. God saved their armies against a foe. Jesus taught us to love, not to be killed off by invading muslims.

St. jay

still self proclaiming your own glory Jay? youre really a not a great specimin, you dont even debate properly. it would be one thing if you were even able to properly respond to a point. but you spew the same thing over and over again with no regard to the truth we have presented you. you speak falsely against both the Lord and his blessed mother. you are no saint or servant of God, but a servant of lies, with no vision for the truth.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 05, 2003.

Paul,

you said that "co-redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" are titles that I made up?

Nice try, but no....this blasphemy can only come from the "father of lies", through his favorite conduit, the Roman Catholic "cult".

"As she suffered and almost died with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that SHE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST HAS REDEEMED THE HUMAN RACE" Inter Sodalicia , Pope Benedict XV , March 22, 1918

This is only ONE in a multitude of writings suggesting the "CO- REDEMPTRIX" "Mediatrix" doctrine of devils.

But the following site is the OFFICAL Catholic cult site for this blasphemy!

http://www.voxpopuli.org/

THis coredemptrix doctrine is currently believed by the church, and the 5th Marian dogma has already been spoken verbally by the current pope.

WAKE up !

In Christ Jesus (The ONLY MEdiator),

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

"Pope John Paul II has used the title "Co-Redemptrix" on at least six occasions in papl addresses, as did Pope Pius XI several times before." Papal Theologian Father Cottier, O.P.

http://www.voxpopuli.org/zenit.php

There are numerous official quotes of the Roman Catholic "church" specifically calling Mary "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" at this site.

In Him,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

first, this is not an official catholic website you present, but i liked it. here is a link to the explanation of the coredemtrix that you so violently rail against, note the part where they acknowledge that the coredemtrix is on no level anywhere equal with the sole redeemer, Christ, but that God willed that the salvation of man should come from Christ, born of a woman. in that way, mary had a part in God's plan. that doesnt make her a goddess, but it does make her a cooperating person with the redeemer, a coredemtrix. here is the site:

http://www.voxpopuli.org/faq1.php

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 05, 2003.

Jay,

You said, "Mary is not involved with this present world, nor can she be, for of the 'dead' the more sure Word of God says, Eccl. 9:5 (I will type the FULL quote: "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten." (NASB)

You are quoting the backslidden Solomon when he was in the depths of worldiness and depression, to prove what? That Christians know nothing when they have departed this world? That flies in the face of Revelations where elders are seen handing vials of incense to the Lord, which are the prayers of the saints, OR when the slain martyrs, under the altar, cry out, "How long will you wait to avenge our blood", or when Lazarus and the rich man are depicted in Christ's parable; Lazarus is quite conscious and knowledgeable.

Then Solomon says, ". . . nor have they any longer a reward . . ." Umm, Jesus is quite clear, there will be rewards and punishments hereafer.

You show, once again, Jay, the danger of private interpretation. You use scripture like pebbles in a slingshot. Unfortunately, for you, you are completely inept at comprehensive reading, and therefore the scripture quotes you use to assault us on this forum, rickochet back on your own head. You are not only dangerous to yourself, but you are dangerous to others as well. May Christ have mercy on you, Jay, for you know not what you do!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 05, 2003.

Yes, the spiritually dead in Hell know nothing except their own misery, for there is a great chasm which separates them from the rest of reality (Luke 16:26). However, that obviously has nothing to do with the saints, who are not spiritually dead, as guaranteed by Jesus Himself (John 11:26). No quicker road to heresy than an inerrant book in the hands of an unauthorized, fallible interpreter, Jay. The thousands of conflicting interpretations spawned by your manmade tradition should serve as fair warning that you are not on the path to truth.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 05, 2003.

Excellent points, Paul, Gail, et al.
We love the Blessed Virgin Mary. She has titles like Co-redemptrix, and Mediatrix (Of All Graces) not to diminish, but to glorify the One, Holy Redeemer and Mediator, Jesus her Son.

Mary delights Jesus; His heart is ravished in her, because all the grace she is given has its origins in God the Father who created her. She is pronounced ''Full of grace'' not by just one archangel, Gabriel; which is written. All the angels in heaven call her Full of Grace; and we do this as well, with the impulse of the Holy Spirit. No one loves her without God's consent and blessing. She is His beloved above all, and her love for God is second to none.

Christian hearts acknowledge these truths, because the holy apostles acknowledged Mary's place in heaven. Her name is holy to all the elect, and God has rewarded her with a place beneath only One other holy Person, Jesus Christ. He glories in her and we all love her. We worship and adore the ONE God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit; no other God.

MARY is created the holiest of all vessels, to have borne the God Man lightly and joyfully beneath her Heart Most Immaculate. She has brought Him into the world as Saviour and Messias; she walked all the way of the Cross with Him in tears and devastation; and brings her children His consolation on earth after He ascended to the right hand of the Father Almighty as Eternal Son.

Truly we have known her love for us; all who call themselves Christians. She is the most glorious woman ever to live; Our Mother.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

Nice fairy tale folks, but it is contrary to the Word of GOD. And without a "love of the truth" "thy WORD is TRUTH", even the "elect" might be deceived. Because it sounds so...... good! But, it is man's vain fable.

Not that that means anything to you, since you are so steeped in the traditions of men.

Paul, the fact that Catholics have given Mary such powers and "all Graces", is telling. What better way to elevate the flesh to the "right hand of God".

You see Paul, all of your understanding is based on false information, which you hold as truth.

you obvously do not take the more sure Word of GOD over your own "fathers" writings. This is the danger and error.

The BIBLE is our final litmus test. If a writing or thought comes out of the mind of a "man", it must be weighed against the WORD of GOD. Don't forget, He said, "I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images."

While you seem to justify the blasphemy of the "Co- Redemptrix"/ "Mediarix" error with the thought that , "she is on no level equal to the Redeemer" nevertheless, you continue to call her "co-redeemer". With that thought in mind, was not David then also "co-redeemer" since Mary came from the House of David? And isn't Joseph? and what of Abraham? and Adam? how about Noah? Aren't they ALL co-redeemers, since the Christ could not have redeemed us without them?

No, this lifting up of the flesh is ANTICHRIST. Because no where in the scriptures is the virgin to be "sinless". The sinlessness is the key. By having your own pope officially pronounce sinlessness, the hand of Satan is clearly seen.. This "denys that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh".

Nice try, and I can see how you might think that it "seems" to sound ok but, "there is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death".

Satan's desire all along is to be "like the Most High" , and in the Marian dogmas, he has achieved his goal!

In Christ Jesus (Ye must be born again),

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

Hi, JG.
I had begun to think you'd hit the trail out, since for days you were eagerly replying to everything in this thread.

I hated to think you wouldn't be back. You see, we know we can make you understand; we know you come from good Catholic stock, and will return to the Church of the apostles if we only do our best to help you. The Holy Spirit will do the rest. AND, we pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary for your salvation; something which would've brought you back long ago, if she had interceded for you in heaven. It's not too late, and she will surely help you. Even against your will!

Here's a clip of your ''biblical wisdom'' which has me puzzled: ''The sinlessness is the key. By having your pope officially pronounce sinlessness, the hand of Satan is clearly seen. This denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.''

Would you explain this line of thought? I know you're basing this on what you believe the Bible teaches. Although it's sola scriptura, and that's by definition a false premise to rely on, your interpretation leaves me wondering. What does he mean? After you give us the bzzz-bzzz on this, I may try to reason with you again.

(Thanks for acknowledging the authority of our Holy Father to teach us. That's a step forward which you had not made before.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

It is quite entertaining how you all pat each other on the back after you each take turns repeating false catholic dogma; however, just as the Pharisees asked Jesus why His disciples did not "wash their hands when they eat bread", you would likewise ask Jesus why He did not address his mother as such, or lift her up as the future "Queen of Heaven", "co-redemptrix", "mediatrix", "advocate", through which "all graces" are given.

No doubt He would have said, "ye do err, not knowing the scriptures". Because just as He answered them in Matt 15:4-14, He would also say to you, "Why do ye transgress the commandments of God by your tradition?"

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Show me where in scripture it says that Mary has been crowned the "Queen of HEaven", and has been given "all the graces of our redemption"?

There is NOTHING OF THE KIND. NOT EVEN CLOSE!

It is all a "god of man's own devices". Lifting up the "creature", rather than the CREATOR who is blessed forever.

God does not give His GLORY to another! especially not to a human being!

For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God

There is NONE righteous , no not one.

yet your own writings have changed the WORD, and made her (Mary) an exception! They have made her "sinless", even though "all have sinned".

Then, since they painted themselves into a corner, stating such a thing, they had to make her be "assumed into heaven", since if she died like every other human being, how could you justify your doctines of devils! So one LIE leads to the next, and the next and the next.

Now the, (admitteldy) FINAL dogma will be that of "co-redemptrix". It is the ultimate blasphemy of the "god of this world".

You are in total error and contrary to the WORD of GOD. And not all catholics are falling for it, (thank God).

In Christ (the TRUTH),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

Eugene,

don't think your cute little digs of sarcasm go un-appreciated. Like the one about the "holy father" and all. "Out of the abundance of the heart, man speaks (and types). Nice try with the "you will come back to the mother church stuff too".

No eugene, I have been "born again". Something that you have proved yourself to not even understand. You think a person is born again, as Jesus was telling Nicodemus, based on water baptism of an infant. That shows how darkended your understadning of Spiritual things is.

No, you have to recognize your blindness, in order to say, "now I see". That comes from repentance, and calling out, crying out to the Lord to be saved. Then, He answers, and baptizes us in the Holy Spirit. The act of baptism is then an outward obedient act of faith per the SCRIPTURES.

But first, you must:

#1 hear the WORD of TRUTH (the BIBLE) "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WOrd of GOD" #2 believe what is says and "call upon the LOrd to save you" "For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved." #3 Be baptized ("not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurection of Jesus Christ)

Now, how can your doctrine be without error, if you don't even understand the "milk of the word"?

You are without understanding. Regarding the "sinlessness" of Mary, being the sure proof that the Marian dogmas are antichrist, well, I am afraid that your spiritual darkness would never allow you to see it anyway. I am sure that you and your fellow blind mice will only regurgitate some "writing of the church" that contradicts scripture, and follow it instead of the WORD of TRUTH.

But, as II THes says, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (you are already operating under the LIE), that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed NOT THE TRUTH ("thy WORD is TRUTH") (I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life) Jesus is the WORD come in the FLESH) of the seed of Abraham. Was Abraham sinless?

"because they received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved"

In Him (The ONLY Mediator between men and GOD, the man Christ Jesus),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

Dear Jag.
The entertainment we offer for free. You're entertaining too.

''You would likewise ask Jesus why He did not address his mother as such, or lift her up as the future "Queen of Heaven", "co-redemptrix", "mediatrix", "advocate", through which "all graces" are given.'' --A spot of your wisdom.

How do we know Jesus didn't address Mary in these terms? Maybe He did; in front of the disciples; who passed it on in apostolic Tradition. I know you won't believe this. But these truths had to start somewhere; and a wonderful revelation of that kind would positively change my point of view, if I were the apostle John, for instance.

John states in the epilogue to his gospel:''This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and we know that his witness is true.There are , many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be written, not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written. Amen.

This is the testimony of the apostle Jesus LOVED, Jay! He's telling you without reservation; ''Everything Our Saviour did and said is not written!'' And he tells you, this witness is true!

That must be an awful thing to hear, for a Bible-only minister like you. But, there it is.

Now; you make good use of all that Jesus said to the Scribes & Pharisees. As if to say, YOU Catholics are the ones Jesus was addressing. Just because of Sacred Tradition. But that's just the Baptist in you talking. You believe many, many things which only Tradition says. You know Jesus wasn't talking to His own followers, tormenting them for Traditon. So, you can keep that bunk about ''ye transgress the commandments of God by your tradition-- '' It has nothing to do with Apostolic Tradition. --And, ''This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honours me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.-- is addressed to Israel;

. . . Not to the Church Jesus founded. You make ridiculous charges, because you have no GRACE from God; whether to debate on faith, or to manage the scriptural truth.

I would advise you if you're here for more than ''entertaining'' bone up on your theology. Bone up on your exegesis, you are no Billy Graham. Above all, you are no ''St. Jay''. Haha!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

You posted before I was online with my last post. I see:''If you don't even understand the "milk of the word"? ''

Milk of what word? You aren't selling milk here, are you? Understand a fall from grace? --Yes; you are a good example of that. We certainly understand the scriptures here, Jay. We have to; we're faithful to God, Jesus and the holy apostles. They gave you the Holy Bible by way of the Catholic Church. We love the Bible, and it reveals the Catholic faith splendidly!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

off, i

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

Eugene,

You can read between the lines, and make up what ever you want. But I trust the WORD OF GOD. That is how I know that the Marian Dogmas are anitchrist.

I John 4:3 says, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist"

Jesus said many things that were not written down, but if it were required truth for the Christian life, He would have told us in the Scritpures. Especially a doctrine such as the Marian dogmas, where a human being is elevated to have the powers of God. I think He would have mentioned it. "if it were not so, I would have told you!" is what He said about the many mansions in His Father's house. I don't think that having to receive ALL graces through Mary would have slipped His mind.

Why weren't the writings of these so called "truths" of yours made a part of the Bible? Because they are not TRUE , that is why.

Christians are to "study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH!

Jesus knew that the Roman Catholic cult would make up false doctrines of devils, so He warned us throught the WORD in I Tim. chapter 4 about the false religion that "forbids to marry, and abstains from meats" . Sound familiar?

Then, He told us in the word, that "there is ONE mediator between men and GOD, the man Christ Jesus, because He knew that the false doctrines of Mary would eventually be vomitted into existance through Rome!

The WORD of GOD is complete, and it is ALL that the Christian needs. It is 100% of the revelation. That is why John wrote, "if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Because John KNEW that Revelation would be the last book of the BIBlE!

It is not coincidence, it is GOD's WILL !

The Marian dogmas are the root of the false Roman Catholic cult! On that you can be sure ! They deny that Jesus Christ "is come in the flesh".

You must LOVE the TRUTH ! "THy word is TRUTH"

"All scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: WHY ????

So that the man of God (the Christian) may be perfect (complete), throughly furnished (thorougly complete) unto ALL good works."

Why will they "perish" ??

"Because they received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved"

What is the TRUTH ? Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE"

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was GOD.

"and the WORD became FLESH and dwelt among us"

"Thy WORD is TRUTH"

In Christ Jesus (the TRUTH, and ONLY Mediator between men and GOD),

St. jay (of the Royal Priesthood)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

Nice fairy tale folks, but it is contrary to the Word of GOD. And without a "love of the truth" "thy WORD is TRUTH", even the "elect" might be deceived. Because it sounds so...... good! But, it is man's vain fable.

or have you given any thought that it might sound so good because it is right? maybe you should consider that just because satan is tricky doesnt mean that when something is clearly good it is evil instead. under that logic you spend your life in moral neutrality, a poor state to be in.

Paul, the fact that Catholics have given Mary such powers and "all Graces", is telling. What better way to elevate the flesh to the "right hand of God".

again your use of quotes is misleading, you arent getting that from any reliable source. besides, we know that at the right hand of God sits Jesus the Christ. and we dont give mary all graces. we acknowledge that she was blessed of all women (or perhaps you think that having born the Son of God is a curse?)

you obvously do not take the more sure Word of GOD over your own "fathers" writings. This is the danger and error.

conversly, church doctrine is based on the writings of God and do not contradict at all. if you actually read the FAQs on the unnoficial site you sent us to, you would know the scriptural references.

The BIBLE is our final litmus test. If a writing or thought comes out of the mind of a "man", it must be weighed against the WORD of GOD. Don't forget, He said, "I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images."

we dont give glory to another. we all know Christ is the redeemer. what we do is give respect to the woman whom God gave great blessing to, because it was part of Gods plan. by respecting those who follow the will of God we show our respect for the path that God lays out for us, and hence our respect for his servants gives glory to the Master.

While you seem to justify the blasphemy of the "Co- Redemptrix"/ "Mediarix" error with the thought that , "she is on no level equal to the Redeemer" nevertheless, you continue to call her "co-redeemer".

actually, there is a subtle difference between the word coredemtrix and coredeemer. coredemtrix, or in participation of redemption is vastly different from 'equal in the redemption' as you present it. we know that it is Jesus' death which saves us, but we also know that for some reason God chose to involve mary as well. if God chose to honor mary, should we, the servants of God, not honor her as well?

With that thought in mind, was not David then also "co-redeemer" since Mary came from the House of David? And isn't Joseph? and what of Abraham? and Adam? how about Noah?

no. coredemtrix means that they would have had to have been informed of the action going on, have understood the consequences of the actions taken, and by free will chosen to play their role in support of the redeemer. joseph cannot be a coredemtrix because he is not the father of Jesus. all the others had no intention of playing a role in the redemtion, because they were not informed of that role nor given a choice to make against it.

No, this lifting up of the flesh is ANTICHRIST. Because no where in the scriptures is the virgin to be "sinless".

no, we know from tradition and grace of the Holy Spirit that she was sinless. it is you who doesnt believe that the Holy Spirit still possesses the power to spread truth in the world today, and that is your shortcoming. you worship God, but you dont attribute him the power to change the world. therefore your worship contradicts itself.

Satan's desire all along is to be "like the Most High" , and in the Marian dogmas, he has achieved his goal!

except for one problem. if the marian dogmas were as horrible as you accuse them of that would make mary like the Most High, not satan. ie, satan would lose

jay

im glad you decided to drop that St thing, your arrogant self proclamation of your own rightousness was beginning to get really annoying.

in the interest of keeping these postings shorter i will address your next postings in the next posts of mine. --------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 05, 2003.

Dear Jay,
Nobody blames you for groping, for struggling to uphold your bad exegesis. You came to a Catholic forum unprepared. You've been repeating yourself all day. I saw your opinions each of the ten times you repeated them. You're serving the devil.

''Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.''

The Apostles' Creed: ''He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became MAN.'' This is Our Lord, True God and True Man. That's the flesh.

Not sinful flesh. Because we have the supreme revelation of God to His Creation: Jesus is God in the human condition, the flesh; yes, God made Man. Not sinful man; God made man. The Catholic faith acknowledges Christ come in the flesh to live among men, a mystery known as the Incarnation. The word Incarnation (Merriam-Webster Dictionary) : The union of divinity with humanity in Jesus Christ.

So-- where does that leave you, Jay?

We know Mary His mother was a creature, not divine. But to become the tabernacle of God, as a pregnant virgin, God made her to be conceived without sin. Never a trace of sin, not a trace! Because God and sin cannot exist together in the same place!

As the baby in her womb, JESUS came in the flesh; and was given birth as suits the only-begotten Son of God. No sin was in His mother to cast any shadow on His glory.

The way you would have it, Mary was nothing but a cage He lived inside of for nine months. He couldn't stand it, being inside a sinner! But, Hell; Jay didn't care. Who does Jesus think he is anyway? GOD???

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

Paul,

Your answers are nothing but circular reasoning. THey are based on man's truth. If you read the very beginning of this forum, it says that the pope said, regarding John having Mary live with her as Christ commanded, "it seems to show his initiative... to live the spiritual life in communion with her".

It shows nothing or says nothing of the kind. That is all half baked reasoning, in order to support other lies that have already been told concerning this fable!

"there is a way which "seems" right unto a (pope) man, but the end thereof are the ways of death"

Let the WORD of God be true, and every man a liar!

SOLA SCRIPTURA

"not by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD" and

GOd said, "there is ONE mediator" and it aint's Mary ! lol!

In Christ Jesus (the TRUTH!),

St. jay (of the Royal Priesthood)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

jay, in response to your second post:

It is quite entertaining how you all pat each other on the back after you each take turns repeating false catholic dogma;

we applaud each other for recognizing subtle nuances of the faith that one might not have been aware of. its called community, or unity, and Jesus commanded it of us. you should try it sometime... i mean actually listening to what Jesus had to say.

just as the Pharisees asked Jesus why His disciples did not "wash their hands when they eat bread", you would likewise ask Jesus why He did not address his mother as such,

actually, ive already pointed out the scriptural reference at the wedding of cana in which Jesus changes his plans for his mother, showing his great respect for her.

or lift her up as the future "Queen of Heaven", "co- redemptrix", "mediatrix", "advocate", through which "all graces" are given.

he doesnt need to. first, she is not that through which all graces are given, nothing youve presented proves this. but back to the point. if God Almight chose to honor mary, why do you insist that the slightest bit of respect for her is wrong? if the Master pays respect so should the servant, for no servant is greater than their Master.

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Show me where in scripture it says that Mary has been crowned the "Queen of HEaven", and has been given "all the graces of our redemption"?

mary is the mother of God. if you recognize Jesus as the King proclaimed by scripture, then it follows that the mother of the King is the queen, although she does not overrule the King. she doesnt have to be proclaimed, it simply IS. and the scriptural reference i have given you so far clearly shows she was given all the graces FROM our redeemer.

It is all a "god of man's own devices". Lifting up the "creature", rather than the CREATOR who is blessed forever.

youve said this so many times, i think i might believe it after a hundred more times... er, maybe not. youve been proven wrong and yet you come back to the same thing over and over and over again. in light of the truths we've presented you, why dont you come up with something new?

God does not give His GLORY to another! especially not to a human being!

but he does give his blessings to humans. or maybe again you are showing that you think being the bearer of Christ would be a curse?

There is NONE righteous , no not one.

no, mary was not righteous, BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD. she did not make herself sinless. God made her that way. thus by the grace of God was she preserved and hence was sinless.

Then, since they painted themselves into a corner, stating such a thing, they had to make her be "assumed into heaven", since if she died like every other human being, how could you justify your doctines of devils! So one LIE leads to the next, and the next and the next.

isnt it funny that we have a portion of the body of each disciple, and yet no one can find the body of Mary? dont you think that if she really died the disciples would have ensured her proper burial in a marked grave and we would have found her by now? or maybe you think they would have left her in a ditch to die, as you surely would?

Now the, (admitteldy) FINAL dogma will be that of "co- redemptrix". It is the ultimate blasphemy of the "god of this world".

again you take a word which has a set definition, and you change the meaning to suit your will. fine, i redefine the name jay such as when applied to you and only you it means servant of satan. now YOURE the wrong one. see how dumb it looks when you try to redefine a word for your own cause?

St. jay

so much for you learning humility, i guess its back to putting up with your arrogance again. --------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 05, 2003.

Hell eugene?

Quick, better find a priest! You wouldn't want to risk dying before you get some voodoo to get rid of that one.

What do you think that one will cost?

a few Hail Mary's at least eh? lol !!!

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator!) no matter what you try to make up!

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (JayGen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

jay, my final post along your newest lines of heresy and blasphemy...

No eugene, I have been "born again". Something that you have proved yourself to not even understand. You think a person is born again, as Jesus was telling Nicodemus, based on water baptism of an infant. That shows how darkended your understadning of Spiritual things is.

why should we not view being born again as a water baptism? isnt that how Jesus describes it? who are you to declare Jesus as wrong? your heresy goes too far.

No, you have to recognize your blindness, in order to say, "now I see". That comes from repentance, and calling out, crying out to the Lord to be saved. Then, He answers, and baptizes us in the Holy Spirit. The act of baptism is then an outward obedient act of faith per the SCRIPTURES.

EVERY sacrament is an obediant act of faith per the SCRIPTURES you twit. you protestants, not all but most, baptise babies too. there is no requirement of free will in baptism, it is an act which is to be performed on another. besides, we know from the Bible that children are the most pure and most innocent and that we should strive to be childlike in our faith. thus childhood seems to me to be the best time for baptism, when one is still innocent enough to have complete faith.

Now, how can your doctrine be without error, if you don't even understand the "milk of the word"?

again, have you given thought to the fact that it might be YOU that is wrong. an objective outsider would easily see that you were outmatched before you even made your third post and youve long since ran out of anything new to say, while we the catholics repeatedly hit you with logic, scriptural reference, dogmatic interpretations and the like to try and bang some truth into that thick skull of yours.

I am afraid that your spiritual darkness would never allow you to see it anyway.

and im afraid that plank in your eye will never allow you to see the scriptures that talk about judgement as you flick at the sawdust in our eye.

Jesus is the WORD come in the FLESH) of the seed of Abraham. Was Abraham sinless?

Jesus was not the seed of abraham. he was the seed of mary who was the seed of blah and so on and so forth back to abraham. BUT, the scriptures show the relation of Jesus as mary's seed. it states that the serpant will have its head crushed by a woman and her seed. unless you think that satan (the serpant) was defeated by someone other than Jesus, then mary can be the only one this scripture identifies.

sorry jay, your arguement is full of wholes and doesnt produce any new points. im getting tired of your vanity putting a blindfold over your ability to see truth.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 05, 2003.

Sorry Paul,

but the Queen is the bride of the KING. The Bride of Christ is the CHURCH (all believers).

and , this is where knowing the TRUTH helps;

"for in HIM (Christ) dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily"

"For it pleased the Father that in HIM (Christ) should all fulness dwell;"

ALL the fulness, not ALL GRACES, through Mary. No, Mary was a vessel that was "used" by God to bring about His WILL.

"but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater" than she.

You just don't get it do you?

God does not share His glory with man ! Not until the resurection, when EVERY man shall give an account of him/herself unto God.

It is given unto man once to die, and then the judgement.

"God is no respector of persons"

In Him,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (JayGen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

Wrong again Paul ! see how knowing and loving the TRUTH helps!

Hebr. 2:16 "For verily He (Christ)took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the SEED OF ABRAHAM"

and He was "in the likeness of sinful flesh"

That is the WORD/TRUTH !

How can it be? "with God, all things are possible"

But to make up a goddes fable, and lift up MARY! NEVER!

but you say, "it seems right"

"there is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of DEATH"

"I AM THE LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images"

Graven images? You mean like STATUES? of things in heaven?

Yes!! the 2nd commandment!

In Him,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 05, 2003.

Dear Hay,

Looks like you say, ''I AM THE LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images.

Graven images? You mean like STATUES? of things in heaven?''
= =

* * * * *

That's the Old Testament; you're right. The jealous God, warning Israel not to make themselves any idols. Well, the people did. Aaron made the golden calf out of earrings and bracelets which the women gave to him, for precisely that use. The brother of Moses did it!

No wonder God hated idols. They took His holy place in the eyes of the Israelites. Nevertheless, it was God who commanded certain carved beasts and flowers to be made for the Temple where His glory was to dwell later on. And the two cherubim atop the Ark of the Covenant. These were beautiful graven images, Jay!

Is God crazy? He forbids them (graven images) for one thing, and commands them to be made for another! The statues we love and the carvings of great scenes from scripture, and the stained-glass images in church windows-- are like the ''good'' images God commanded Israel to make for HIM! His glory!

Not golden calves, to detract from His glory. Not evil animal gods like in Babylon and Egypt.

We have images of GOOD and faithful saints. Images of Jesus as we picture Him. Grace is given by God to his Holy Church. Then by grace, we worship Him and adorn the place where His glory dwells with art. The holy statues; Jesus, Mary & Joseph. Angelic staues, and images depicting the life of grace. I myself have for the desktop of this computer an image of Michelangelo's Pieta. It's very lovely. It honors Jesus Our Holy Redeemer and His holy mother. Not Baal, or Moloch or Jupiter.

If this is too deep for you, JG, and you haven't the spiritual background to love God's holy saints, that's YOUR loss, not ours. If the subject of icons and images is too complicated for you to make sense of, go back to your Bible. It's your icon. It's your blessed mother. It's your idol. I feel very sorry for you. You are steeped in your fundy fanaticism. A regular ''meetin' house'' bigot. Sad!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

Jay-- Quoting:

''Queen is the bride of the KING.''

Wrong again. The mother of the King, it's written in the Old Testament. Check it out, my friend.

Are you EVER correct?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

Solomon was the king; with wives. But his mother, Bathsheba, appeals to him for Adonias, who tells her: ''Speak to the king, for he cannot deny thee anything.'' (3 Kings,2:16) and she was seated on the throne at his right hand, Queen. --Verse :19, same chapter.

''Speak to the KING, for he cannot deny thee (his MOTHER) anything.'' That's a very significant passage, Jay. It reminded me of the Holy Mother of God. Could it be, in line with certain wonderful things in heaven??? Hmmm.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 05, 2003.

Jay,

I have looked in vain throughout your posts for one shred of decency, honor or respect, but alas, no good heavenly fruit can be found! What can be seen is a person with an ego the size of Mount Everest, arrogance that is nauseating, and a mouth that only spews bitterness and hate.

Do you know what the two greatest commandments are, Jay? To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. I see no evidence of 'Love' throughout your postings, only the rantings and ravings of a fundamentalist lunatic fringe. You have come into "our livingroom" uninvited, and for the most part you have been treated with respect, though most times it was a respect NOT well-deserved. You have repeatedly insulted each and every one of us on this thread. You evade questions asked specifically of you by slinging your ammo -- the precious Word of God, thrown about like gravel off a dirt road. Your biblical exegesis is appalling by even Protestant standards, and yet you puff yourself up like the Stay-Puff Marshmellow man!

You are an embarassment to Christ with your attitude and your viscious assaults, and, if I were you, I would work on "Love" a tad before claiming the fair name of our Savior as your Lord.

I shall not waste my time conversing with you any longer, for it is written "Cast not your pearl before swine."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 05, 2003.

Gail,

you are right about the 2 greatest commandments. And neither one of them inlcudes lifting up and adoring another human being as a "god" like your cult does with Mary.

You are to love the LORD thy GOD, not "make your own god, of your own devices" as your cult has done. It is blasphemy!

The "bride of Christ" is the church, which he is the head of and gave Himself for. There is no Queen of Heaven, other than the same queen of heaven that the children of Israel worhsipped in vain.

Eugene, our understanding is pitiful, as is Paul's and yours Gail. You persecute me because I am trying to point you back to the commandment of Jesus Himself, "not by brad alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD"

"search the SCRIPTURES, for in them ye think that ye have eternal life, and they are they which tell of ME"

"in vain do they worship Me, making for DOCTRINES the commandments of MEN"

Jesus asks, "do you love me more than these"?

Jesus is "the WORD", "in the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the Word WAS GOD!"

THE WORD, THE WORD THE WORD!!!!!

Wake up ye Romanists ! before it is too late!

"Ye worship, ye know not what" !

"THY WORD is TRUTH"

WHy will they perish?

"Because they loved NOT the TRUTH"

In Him (no voodoo, necromancy, graven images, or goddess worship),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 06, 2003.

And by the Eugene,

The cherubim that were made were made "unto God", by His command. Not "unto yourself" which is what your idols and graven images are for.

Also, the serpent in the wilderness was constructed also "unto GOD" by His command to Moses.

Later on, He told them to destroy it, because the people were worshipping it!

And that is what YOU do with YOURS! You worship it. God knows what a man will do when he makes them "unto himself".

You need to just OBEY the WORD, and not try what "seems" right to you.

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 06, 2003.

Jay:
Our Lord Jesus Christ is the sole Mediator between all heaven & earth and His Eternal Father. That's an article of faith for all Catholics. We haven't forgotten this.

It's apparent then, you haven't had Christ mediating (yet) on your own behalf; despite your prattle about the Word. If you are still in darkness, how could Jesus have mediated for you? But He will, now.

His faithful are praying for you. The Holy Virgin Mary is praying for you. The prayers of the saints go up to Him for your salvation, and He hears.

My patience is not at an end. I'll remind you once more, Mary is a creature. Though she is called BLESSED by all generations of believers, (Luke 1, 1:48) no Catholic has raised her to the status of a god. She prays for us, but her prayer goes up to God through Jesus her Holy Son and Saviour. No, we do not ''worship'' nor adore her, we love and honor her. Her honor is not subtracting from full adoration and praise for Our Holy Redeemer. On the contrary, the love we give Mary exalts the Son of God.

So you lie, when you claim we make her equal or opposed to God. You lie when you call her a goddess, and you lie when you accuse us of adoration and worship of Mary. You simply lie.

No matter. I for one see these lies as the fruits of your own master's planning: the devil. he must have bewitched you from childhood, to produce the vile words you speak here. You are working for the Lord of the Flies, Beelzebub. He's the father of lies. But we hope he will not keep you.

We forgive you, because your soul hasn't yet gone down to damnation. There's time to salvage it; but True Believers must care. We have an obligation to serve God by helping your blindness, and bringing you back to the faith of your blessed ancestors.

Catholics all. Unless you descend from Jews, or from pagan races. It wouldn't matter; God loves you anyway. He wishes all men to be saved, and most of all those who are descendents of His saints in the Church. You undoubtedly number as forebears at least a few saints or martyrs who were faithful Catholics.

If Gentile is a latin name, as I suspect, your own parents or grandparents are Catholics. More the pity for you. Now you must renounce your own blood; those faithful Catholics! La Gentilezza! Gentile.
Ciao, Jay. Smile; God loves you!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 06, 2003.

Eugene, Dude, you are amazing me with your charity! Your posts are excellent, eloquent and full of graciousness. May the Lord's precious love continue to flow through you!

Speaking of love, Jay forgets that Mary IS part of God's family, and that we are called to love each other as we love ourselves -- the 2nd greatest commandment. It is easy to love Mary and those who have been soooo sanctified by our great Shepherd, but it is hard to love those who offend us, like Jay. (I'm preaching to myself here). And so, I must join my prayers with your's, Eugene, and the great heavenly family we love so much, and ask them and you to pray for Jay's eyes to be truly opened to the wonderful family we have in heaven that love us and due battle for us against the manifold kingdom of darkness. And further to humbly ask my Lord and Savior to continue to love through me, even the unloveable.

God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 06, 2003.

Hi, Gail.
How's my Brit Sister? I appreciate the thumbs up; only I wish I had always been deserving of that. I'm convicted of having been the Boo-Bird here often enough.

I truly feel for this fellow, Jay G.

He's nothing new. I've met & argued with many like him since the 60's. That's when I began taking apologetics seriously. I recall having obtained some books titled ''Radio Replies'' and devoured them. They were authored by two fabulous Australian priests, Fr. Rumble and Fr. Carty. If you ever find these, pick them up, they're priceless.

Anyway, in my heart (I often tell my wife) the good preparation God has afforded me through 50 years of intense study should not go to waste. It's as if a charism had been specially invented for me. I take a soul like Jay to my heart and nurse it back to health, if God permits. Jay might not; but when God permits, Katy, bar the door! Lol!

Not by skill or cleverness. by immersing that soul in the truth we received from our holy mother Church. Then ''crossing my fingers.'' Man proposes, God disposes.

It's shameful to have to confess that sometimes my cruel nature has been turned loose on some of our tormenters in this site. I'm a sinner, you see. I only ask God to keep me from self-destructing from this impetuous ego he made for me. It's always a danger. I fool no one.

Please say a prayer for your friend,

GINO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 06, 2003.

Gino, you are very special to me as you were one of the first forumites I met here last year. You and John, and blessed Fred, God rest his soul. I miss him. Remember Dennis Molson? Oh, how he and Fred would go at it!

You have grown very much my friend, and it is a pleasure to see God's gifts working in and through your posts. They come from His spirit working through your's. Isn't it marvelous!

I have a lot to learn about being "persecuted for the faith," as I never really have been the target of such hate . . . that is, until I came into the Church. Now, I find that no one likes us! Ha! What a good sign!

God really does use this forum, you know. I am proof. I had not a Catholic friend in the world until I came here last year -- not a one! You guys and gals, Theresa, MaryLu and others really gave me a terrific support system. Now I am REALLY plugged into a wonderful parish, using my musical skills, worshipping as was always intended, AND I will be working at our parish school this fall with the kiddos! How's that for cool! And you guys, here on this forum, can share in the joy of my "homecoming"!

Thank you,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 06, 2003.

Eugene, our understanding is pitiful, as is Paul's and yours Gail

no, jay,

what is pitiful is your lack of charity, your lack of understanding of scripture and your inability to see the simple truth that is put before you.

you plainly tell eugene you dont think that we should follow what is right?!?!?!? you are a servant of a master that hides in the shadows even from you.

COME OUT FROM YOU HERESY JAY, AND RECIEVE TRUE SALVATION. until such time i regard any debate with you as fruitless, as you only respond with perverse misquotations of scripture. im done, i wish you the grace of God, but i wont wish you luck in your path, because you serve no master of mine.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 07, 2003.

Eugene,

There is one way to "pray" and that is to say, "Our Father....."

We are NEVER told to "pray" to anyone but GOD.

We are told to Love and adore God, but never to love and adore another "creature" of God in that way. Not in the way that your own writings adore her.

According to your writings, Mary is:

1. "The Lord adorned Her the dispenser of ALL the Treasury of His Mercies." (note the capitalization of the "H", as in "deity".

2. "We must never go to our Lord accept through Mary, through her intercession and her influence with Him. We must never be without Mary when we pray to Jesus."(Act Through Mary, 48.3)

3. "Just as there is no salvation outside of belonging to the Catholic Church, which is the immaculate Bride of Christ, there is no communication of Divine Grace without the intercession of the Virgin Mary, who acts as the channel of God's Gifts." (Our Lady Path of Contemplation by Peter A. Kwasniewski)

4. "As worthy Mother of God and full of grace, she occupies a MIDDLE POSITION between God and His creatures". (Questions and Answers About Mary by Anthony F. Buono)

A "middle position between God and His creatures" would be a MEDIATOR ! but.........there is ONE mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ!

5. "Every Christian ought to be devoted to the Mother of God"

"He who expects graces from God without the intercession of Mary attempts to fly without wings."

"He that neglects her will die in his sins"

of Mary: "the people that do not serve thee will perish"

"He who is faithful in the service of Mary will certainly be saved"

"O Mother of God, if I put my confidence in you, I shall be saved"

(Dignities and Duties of the Pries by St. Alphonsus De Liguori

The above a just a very few of the hundreds of blasphemous quotes made by St., popes, priests, and cardinals of the Roman Catholic church.

Eugene, the WOrd of God says to :

1. Love the Lord your God with ALL our heart and ALL your soul, and ALL your mind.

&

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Now, I ask you. Which one is Mary? God ?? or neighbor.

And if "neighbor", are we then to believe that we are to devote our selves to the servive of Mary ? Pray to Mary ????, for she is "dispersor of ALL GRACES" ?

This is not right! Can you NOT see this is WRONG?

There is ONE mediator between men and GOD, and yet your own Catholic writers say, "we must NEVER go to our LORD "except through Mary". Jesus is GOD, therefore, if we MUST go through Mary, to get to Jesus (GOD), then Mary is a MEDIATOR between men and GOD!.

"She (Mary) occupies a MIDDLE POSITION between God and His creatures"

a "middle position" is a MEDIATOR !!!!!

"Mary, to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs"

scripture teaches: Psa. 46:7 "The LORD of hosts is with us, the God of Jacob is our refuge"

WAKE UP !

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator between men and GOD!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 08, 2003.

You're playing the broken record again. We told you Mary isn't ''adored''. It's one of your lies. --More of your warped ideas:

''yet your own Catholic writers say, "we must NEVER go to our LORD except through Mary. --Jesus is GOD, therefore, if we go through Mary, to get to Jesus (GOD), then Mary is a MEDIATOR between men and GOD!'' What writers said we must NEVER go to Our Lord??? Another lie. If Mary's a mediator and should not intercede for anyone--

--Why does she do that exactly, in the Bible? John's gospel, chapter 2, verses 1 through 10: All about Mary interceding with God; right there publicly, and she wasn't bashful about it!

--Jesus positively answered her request; a prayer. You're such a loser, Jay; again:''Pray to Mary ????, for she is "dispersor of ALL GRACES" ? This is not right! Can you NOT see this is WRONG?''

Nobody says she is ''dispersing'' all graces. Her title is Mediatrix of all graces. Don't make up stupid words, Jay. Mary is in fact Mediatrix of all graces. Why??? Because all her prayers in heaven are devoted to her living children in the Church. She prays for the grace to be granted as we pray for it. That's why I said YOU had her prayer in heaven, to have God give YOU grace.

She hears me ask her intercession on your behalf to save you from the darkness you are in, by God's grace-- and she personally adds her own prayer; passing it up to God.

The grace is then passed down particularly because she asks it, to YOU --Loser! BY MARY! You are such a loser, you'll likely refuse God's grace! (I hope not.)

''We are NEVER told to "pray" to anyone but GOD.'' says Jay. Yes we are. You lose again. --We are taught just that, in John 2, v. :1 through :10. Appeals to Mary bring us God's grace (& good results sometimes !) Open your cheesey eyes, Rep!

St Jay the patron saint of liars. Pupil of the Lord of the Flies, Beelzebub; another loser. Haha! Loser in biblical scholarship, loser in debate, loser in his corrupt and ignorant ''fellowship''. --Three time loser!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 08, 2003.

Eugene,

You stated: "What writers said we must never go to our Lord (except through Mary?"

The answer can be found at the EWTN Website: "The Secret Of Mary"

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM _____________________________________________________________________

next, you said: "John's gospel, Chapter 2 verse 10 is all about Mary interceding with God, right there publicly".

No, it is about a "human being" mother, making a request of her Son. Many people made requests of Jesus CHrist, which He answered sometimes, and sometimes not. John 2:1-10 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mary, spiritually interceding for believers to Jesus Christ. If that is the only scripture you can come up with to justify the doctrine of Mary being one that should be "prayed" to, you have an empty argument. This portion of "truth", (thy WORD is TRUTY) in no way justifies the lie that is told by the ROmish church, saying that Mary should be 'prayer' to, in order to receive graces from Jesus Christ. A Mediator, is one that "acts as an agent between two persons". There is only ONE mediator, and He, (Jesus Christ) acts as our "agent" between Himself, and God the Father.

Then you said: "Nobody says that she is dispersing all graces"

To answer that I quote the following Catholic writers:

1. "It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have ENOUGH TO SUFFICE FOR THE SALVATION OF EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ AND IN THE BLESSED VIRGIN." This is stating that the "Blessed Virgin" has "enough grace to suffice for the salvation of everybody". Encyclopedia of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on Sept 8, 1892.

2. "Mary is the "intermediary" through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasture of mercies by God. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the SOn, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" encylcopedia of Pope Leo XIII Sept 22, 1891

This is TOTALLY un-scriptural and blasphemy. There is ONE mediator "agent between two parties", and that is JEsus Christ, our agent between men and God. There is no answer for this but blasphemy!

3. "EVERY GRACE granted to man has three degrees in order, for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us" Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII Sept. 8, 1904. Again, un-scriptural and blasphemy.

4. "How rightly too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as "Our LAdy, Our Mediatrix", "The Reparatrix of the Whole World", and the "Dispenser of ALL HEAVENLY GIFTS". Pope Leo XIII, 1895.

"O Virgin most holy, NONE abounds in the knowledge of God except through THEE: NONE, O Mother of God, attains salvation EXCEPT THROUGH THEE; NONE RECEIVES A GIFT FROM THE THRONE OF MERCY EXCEPT THROUGH THEE" (St. Germ. Constantinop. , Orat 11, in Dortnitione B.M.V.

5. "She (Mary) is the SUPREME MINISTER of the distribution of GRACES" Encyclical of Pope Pius X , Feb. 2, 1904

6. "ALL GRACES contained in the treasury of the Redemption are given to us through the hand of the same sorrowful Mother." Source, "Introduction to Mary" by Mark Miravalles, S.T.D., published by Queenship Publishings Co., PO Box 42028, Santa Barbara, CA page 76.

7. "...the powerful patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of ALL GRACES..." Encyclical of Pope Pius XI, May 3, 1932.

Eugene, I could type this blasphemy out ALL DAY! That is how many of these abominations have been written. This LIE was begun by Pope Pius IX on Dec. 8, 1854, and has been snowballing ever since.

This is the "LIE that they SHOULD BELIEVE", because they "loved NOT the truth", ("Thy WORD is TRUTH")

Calling me a loser, cheesy eyes, "pupil of Lord of the Flys", and Beelxebub won't change the FACT that you are believing a LIE Eugene!

None of this BLASPHEMY is in the BIBLe, and if it were true, Jesus would have "tole us so".

Try not to take is so personnally. All you have to do is stop trusting in MEN, and trust in the TRUTH. (Thy WORD is TRUTH), and Jesus said, "I am the TRUTH".

You need to LOVE the LORD, and not the Roman Catholic false writings.

Remember, they will believe the LIE, BECAUSE:

"They received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved."

In Christ Jesus ("The ONLY Mediator between men and GOD"),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 09, 2003.

People who are against Mary or even hate her are actully Anti-Christ. How hyporcrite we are when we say we love Jesus and yet disregard His Mother as our Mother too. One of the greatest gift that Jesus give to humanity before He dies on the cross, is no other then His Mother.

Jesus and Mary cannot be seperated and only those ignorant 'Christian' will fall into the devil's trap to reject Mary as the Mother of Jesus and Mother of the Catholic Church.

-- (vincentkoh@pd.jaring.my), June 09, 2003.

Yes, Vincent,
JG is a disciple of the devil. Nothing proves it so well as the animosity he spouts against the Holy Virgin. It's significant that Jay will risk smearing Jesus Christ's (Our Saviour!) own mother-- but will grasp for glory in supporting his own ''biblical scholarship'', which he swears is ''above reproach'' ??? Yes, idolatry of the Bible and blasphemy against Jesus Christ by association with Mary the Blessed Virgin! Given the devil's own corruptions of the Word of God, (he tempts Eve, explaining why God forbids eating of the fruit,) & (he tempts Christ, expounding on the Word of God--)

Anyone can see why the devil through his minion, Jay, tolerates NO devotion to Mary, (his sworn enemy as per God's Word in Genesis 3 :15-- ) The very mention of Mary in the Church lights Jay's fuse of hatred. Because his master, the devil hates her. He screams blasphemy at Catholics as he blasphemes the Mother of God! He will not accept her (Satan doesn't either), he won't give her a place with Christ, (Satan doesn't) and he hates the children she prays for, the Church! He denies scripture, (John 2 :1-:10) with complete impugnity; as the devil counsels him to.

Everywhere we find the Immaculate Heart of Mary censured or denied or scorned; there is Satan with his evil, acting behind the scenes. This is chrystal clear to faithful Christians. Poor Jay is doing Satan's work. And, like Satan himself, he corrupts the Word of God. We must pray for Jay; and beseech of Mary, Satan's arch-enemy, her holy intercession!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 09, 2003.

To Eugene and Vincent:

Please don't keep telling me what you believe. It is irrelevent. Please SHOW me from the WORD of GOD, what you believe.

Eugene, it is obvious that you are not going to deal with the Catholic writings that I have quoted. All you want to do is keep on telling me your error, without giving me proof of it by the WORD.

You can make up and believe anything you want. look at all the false religions on the planet. That is obvious.

But Jesus said, "Thy WORD is TRUTH", so qoute me some WORD, and stop all this nonsense that you have been taught from man's traditions.

Now, you had some comments to make about my post before the last one, and I answered them WITH your OWN CATHOLIC writers saying things TOTALLY contrary to the WORD of GOD.

For instance, "Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order, for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ IT PASSES TO THE VIRGIN, and from the Virgin it decends to us"

The Roman Catholics call Mary, the "Mother of God", therefore, if she is communicating "graces" between man and Jesus Christ, that means that she is believed to be a MEDIATOR between men and GOD (God being Jesus Christ). Therefore, the Marian dogmas are antichrist and anti- word of God.

But, they WILL believe a "lie", because they "received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved". What is "the TRUTH" ????

Jesus prayed the following to the HOLY FATHER (that is GOD by the way)

John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH"

Eugene, I would challenge you to give me the WORD of GOD, on which you base your doctrine of Mary being the go-between, as it says above, written by your own Pope Leo XIII, Sept. 8, 1904.

If you cannot, then you have made a "god of your own devices".

"there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

In Christ Jesus, (The ONLY Mediator between men and God),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 09, 2003.

Telling Satan's minion what I believe?

If only chapter & verse will suit you, it means you can't answer the charge. You are speechless.

That's why you say: ''It is irrelevant. Please SHOW me from the WORD of GOD, what you believe.''

The Word of God? Meaning the one you've distorted?

+ + + + + + +

John's gospel, chapter 2, verses 1 through 10: Mary interceding with God her lovng Son;

She is called BLESSED by all generations of believers, (Luke 1, 1:48)

The mother of the King Is Queen, not his bride: (3 Kings,2:16) and Bathsheba mother of Solomon was seated on the throne at his right hand, Queen. --Verse :19, same chapter. --Leading to ''Speak to the KING, for he cannot deny thee anything.(3 Kings 3:16-- 19,) A significant passage, Jay. It reminded me of the Holy Mother of God. Could it be, in line with certain wonderful things in heaven? Mary cannot be denied anything by Jesus??? Yes!

''This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and we know that his witness is true. There are , many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these should be written, not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written. Amen. (John, 21:24) Meaning: Not every truth which has come from the Word of God IS WRITTEN!

Irrelevant, Jay? No-- Just impossible for you to argue anymore!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 09, 2003.

Dear Jay,

Why are you so angry? Your tone is hostile, when having Christ in your life you should be filled with peace, charity, and love. Our beliefs should in no way incite such aggression.

Now you seem to like The Word to make points so here is one:

Luke, IV, 1-13

"Even the Devil can quote scripture when it suits his purpose." Therefore it takes more than a good memory and bad interpretations to impress us.

PS: That quote isn't mine, it belongs to the most quoted next to the bible Shakespere: Merchant of Venice. (Another good read)

Jay- please continue, I am very amused.

God Bless!

-- Fabiola (ubuibme@nomail.com), June 10, 2003.

Thank you Fabiola, I will continue to "amuse" you. lol!

Now, back to Eugene's attempt to twist the scriptures to make his own points.

If you are talking about III Kings, I can't help you, because there is no such book in scripture. However, you must be referring to

(I Kings, chapter 2 verses 13-25), where "Adonijah, the son of Hagith, came to Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon" and asked her to "speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunamite to wife",

And, if you read the rest of the story, you will find out that Solomon DID NOT grant Bathsheba what she asked for:

She asked: (I Kings 2:21) "And she said, Let Abishag the Shunamite be given to Adonijah thy brother to wife."

and king Solomon became angry, and asked Bathsheba why she has asked this for him, and asked her if she wanted him to also give Adonijah the kingdom!

And then Solomon said, (I Kings 2:24) "Now therefore, as the Lord liveth, which hath established me, and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, ADONIJAH SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH THIS DAY."

So, it is obvious that your exegesis on this portion of scripture does not realate to Christ and His mother in any way. For your false doctrine would have us believe that "WHATSOEVER Mary asks of her Son, is granted". Here is a clear scripture, proving the opposite ! If, in fact (and it of course is not) this is a picture of Christ and His mother as a queen of some kind.

Now, concerning your next false inturpretation of the scriptures,

John Chpt 2 verse 1-10 This section of scripture is abused to the maximum by the Romish church, and is used as the basis for wild sepculation about the relationship between Mary and Jesus Christ in heaven. It is totally wrong.

This is the first miracle of Christ, and nothing more. If we are to lift up and make a queen out of every woman that made a request of Christ and was given the request, then there would be a number of women (false goddesses) in heaven along with Mary.

No, this is just another example of a scritpure being twistd and "spun" in such a way, that it can be used to support a false "doctrine of devils" that was created by men, and not by God. Another example is Christ's telling John to "behold thy mother". This is simply Jesus Christ, giving instruction to John to take care of His mother, at His death. The Romish church, once again, in the flesh, takes this one scripture and twists it, and spins it into an entire doctrine, based on scripture that never said anything close to what they say it does.

Why didn't they twist the scripture in the SAME way, when Jesus says, "Who is my mother?, and who are my brothers and sister"?

Here is an example of how Jesus, who called His mother "woman", did not, in ANY WAY, give us ANY WORDS that could imply that Mary was ANYTHING even close to being the QUEEN of HEAVEN, or MEDIATRIX, or COREDEMPTRIX.

In fact, if you want to twist a scripture, then twist "yea RATHER, blessed are they that HEAR the WORD of GOD, and KEEP IT!"

We are CLEARLY told that Mary is not to be lifted up and worshipped, like the ROMAN CATHOLICS have done! It is a clear violation of the MORE SURE WORD OF GOD!

Now, I believe that she (Mary) was "blessed" by God, as was John the Baptist, Moses, Abraham, and on and on, but does Jesus Christ expect us to build SCHRINES to Human Beings? No ! it is an abomination !

And certainly not to PRAY to "creatures", and expect Mary to answer prayers. Or certainly not to create an entire "False RELIGION" around the false beliefs that Mary is "enthroned as Queen of the Earth, Heaven, and the UNIVERSE!

How do we know if this is false?

By the WORD OF GOD:

"There is ONE Mediator between men and God, the man Jesus CHrist"

"I am the LORD, that is my name, and my glory will I NOT give to another, neither my praise to graven images"

"When thou prayest, say, OUR FATHER............"

Not, O MARY ...............

Mary is our neighbor. We are to love her, and all mankind, as ourself. But NEVER to pray to a creature!

Rom 1:25 "Who changed the TRUTH OF GOD ("Thy WORD is TRUTH") into a LIE, and worshipped and served the "creature" more than the "CREATOR", who is blessed for ever. Amen"

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator between men and GOD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 10, 2003.

Jay,
I didn't quote the verses from Kings for any other reason than showing Israel's ruling family; you have no argument to rebut that. Solomon did not sit his wife at his right hand on a throne. He sat his mother there. It's not relevant what other aspects of the story teach in the chapter. You see the mother act as queen. It is quite a nice parallel to Our Blessed Mother, wouldn't you say? (OH! you aren't impartial; I forgot for a moment.)

You keep repeating Bzz-bzzz, "I am the LORD, that is my name, and my glory will I NOT give to another, neither my praise to graven images,'' as if I were trying to unseat God. Are you on some crack cocaine kick or what? You know as well as anyone Catholics do not give God's glory to another; nor are we ''making graven images unto ourselves''.

Since YOU KNOW THIS, I won't show you. The subject is closed.

You're doing Satan's work. It's written, Mary is in emnity from the beginning with your boss the serpent. You hate Mary because she is his enemy according to God's Holy Word. (Gen 3:14). How could you love the woman whose seed crushes your master's head?

Bzz-bzz: ''Not, O MARY <------>Mary is our neighbor. We are to love her and all mankind as ourself.--> But NEVER to pray to a creature!'' Bzz!

Luke 1:46; MARY: My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour; He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid; for BEHOLD ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED,'' ~ . . . the holy words of Mary! Yes, all generations, JG-- of True Believers.

It's only natural nobody who serves the serpent will call her blessed, or as Elizabeth said at verse :41 in a loud voice, ''Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb! And how have I deserved that the mother of My Lord should come to me?'' (She was speaking in the Holy Spirit, and couldn't see how she deserved/i> Mary's visit! The mother of John the Baptist, Jay. A true saint, not a pretend saint like Satan's stooge Gentile. She didn't deserve for Mary to come to her.

I see you deserve to call Mary your neighbor. What a Bozo!!! Lol! Is there a lake in your neighborhood, JG? Go jump in it! --Haha!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 10, 2003.

Oh, and you also called me a stooge and a bozo.

I can understand your frustration. Since you are being convicted by the Holy Ghost.

You need to repent, and be Born Again Eugene.

Then you will understand; "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" pertains to "born of water",

and "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" pertains to "and of the Spirit"

"He that has ears to hear, let him hear"

You need to let go of the superstition and voodoo of the Romish church. It is all just a lust of the flesh, and is SIN!

Mary was a vessel, used by God, and GOD is NO RESPECTOR of PERSONS. That is why Jesus said, "of those born of a woman (this includes Mary) there is NONE GREATER than John the Baptist; notwithstanding, he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is GREATER THAN He"

and of Mary, Jesus said, "yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of GOD and keep it."

Jesus was very careful not to lift up Mary, and He even called her "woman" and not Mother.

The reason He did that was because He knew how easily the FLESH wants to lift up "man" , as an idol !

It is idol worship to lift up Mary to a DEITY as the Romish cult has done! and BLASPHEMY !!!!

Mary is a "creature", and your fables and man-made traditions have made her a goddess.

You "SAY" you don't worship her, but yet your own pope's writings say otherwise !

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE ! is what the Lord is saying to the Harlot known as the Roman Catholic church. It is an abomination to Him.

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY MEDIATOR!!!!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 10, 2003.

He that has ears to hear, let him hear,
But why haven't you heard?

I said Bozo and stooge. Yes. Because you're only a clown while you presume to interpret scripture. A pratfall artist and comic.

A stooge for Satan; much more serious. Nothing to laugh about. How do we know this?

Christ founds His Church.
He names Peter her leader, giving to him the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
He sends the Holy Spirit into the Church for all time.
His Church evangelizes the known world, bringing souls to salvation over the course of two millennia.

You, JG, are an heir to sinful heresies and you rebel against the successors of Peter, the Rock.
You idolize a book, and deny the truth in the Book.

You call the Church of Jesus Christ a whore.
You hate Christ's Holy Church.
Satan hates the same Holy Church.

By logical extension, you--
--Are Satan's follower. His stooge. I haven't made anything up, Jay.

You're a clown (Bozo) and a follower of Satan. For the time being; we'll keep hoping you awaken to the truth with God's help.

Mary, Holy Mother of God,
Pray for the salvation of your Son's errant sheep; his nname is Jay Gentile, a heretic. Intercede for him, Holy Mother, and for all your children. May we all be made worthy of the promises of your Holy Son Jesus! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 10, 2003.

Eugene,

The "ROCK" is Jesus Christ. The church is founded upon Him. The "pebble", or "moveable rock" is Peter.

Look it up in the Strong's Concordance. The WORD (that is Jesus Christ) is referred to as the ROCK (Petra:#4073 foundational rock, un- moveable)

Peter is (#4074 Petros, a (moveable) rock or stone)

You see, you have been believing a lie.

Jesus Christ is the ROCK on whom the church (universal) is built.

Now, this being said, your theory and understanding of the office of the pope, and all that, is just the traditions of men, and as such, it is building your house on sand.

The early churches understood this, but it wasn't until Constantine and the un-holy men that entered the church, that the pagan rituals, and false idol worhsip was added. The false doctrine of "infant baptism" allowed everyone to "think" that they were Christians, and the "LIE" is still being told today! Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of GOD", and that is not going to change!

The church that you are a part of now, is nothing but a shell of the original. The gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ through regeneration by the Holy Ghost is NOT preached. The WORD is not preached, or used for doctrine, or used for teaching. They have replaced it with their own "understanding" (catechisms) of the WORD, and not allowed the Holy Spirit to teach the WORD. It is called, "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof"

Little, worldly, humanistic messages are given from the pulpit. One or two, out of context versees are read from one of the gospels, and it is called "giving the gospel".

The true gospel, is one of repentance, calling out to the Lord and asking to be saved, and then being BORN AGAIN. Receiving the POWER of God, not "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".

No, sadly, the "gospel" is not PREACHED ! The love of the TRUTH (THY WORD IS TRUTH) is not seen in the Romish church. WHich is why they WILL believe a lie. "Because they received NOT the LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved" "THY WORD IS TRUTH"

A gospel of graven image worship, and "eucharist" worship, and false Marian worship is given.

Just read the last part of your latest message:

"May we all be made worthy of the promises of your holy Son Jesus" That wouldn't be bad if the prayer was made to the Holy Father (that is GOD by the way), but you are praying it to a "creature", rather than the CREATOR, who is blessed for ever, AMEN !

You can go to the Roman Catholic church until you are blue in the face, but if you do not come to KNOW and BE KNOWN by Jesus Christ: by being Born Again, you will never know for sure if you are saved or not. The reason that you don't know, and have no confidence is becasue you are not saved!

I have already been made worthy of the promises of Jesus Christ! Because I have REVEIVED HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS !

You, sadly, will be on your death bed, still wondering if you are saved or not. Praying in vain to Mary, "pray for us sinners now, at the hour of my death".

No, SALVATION is something that, when you receive it, you are BORN AGAIN. Old things pass away, behold, ALL THINGS BECOME NEW !!!!

You become a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST !!!

Eph 1:13-14 speaking of Christ, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the WORD OF TRUTH (thy WORD is TRUTH), the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye BELIEVED, ye were SEALED with that holy SPirit of promise, (the NEW BIRTH!)

Which is the earnest (deposit) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, uto the praise of His glory"

You see ?

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN

You think that you already have been Born Again, but your posts prove otherwise!

If you don't know for SURE that you are saved, it's because you do not have the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit, witnessing to your spirit that you area SAVED !!!

Your faith in not in Jesus Christ, it is in the man-made religion known as the Roman Catholic church!

THat is why Jesus said, "Many shall say to me in that day, Lord! Lord!, ................and I will say unto them, depart from me ye that work iniquity, for I NEVER KNEW YOU"

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY MEDIATOR),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 10, 2003.

''Upon this rock (Simon Peter), I will build My Church.'' It's Simon whose name is changed to ROCK; Christ would not change it for nothing. The Church is founded, and given for all ages the stability of His apostle Peter.

You have the same wrong bent all anti-Catholics cling to, little pebbles. No wonder your faith is non- existent when it comes to some truly mysterious revelations of God. You can't follow when the simplest things are revealed. You are Peter- Rock.

Why so stupid? ''Praying it to a creature! Praying IT? We ask MARY to pray, we don't pray it! She prays for you. Just as she did for the matrimonial couple at Cana, Loser.

Mary interceded at the marriage feast; asking Jesus'; as she does for you and me. Instead of the wedding couple, picture you or me. Her request of Him was for the others; and here's the hardest bite for you unbelievers to chew: He answered her prayer, and changed water into wine. He did it for Mary! Even after He's reminded her, '' What is this to thee and me? My hour is not yet come.''

Mary's wishes were too holy in Jesus' sight, to make excuses. He went on to perform the first public miracle because she prayed for another person(s). It's absolutely biblical, and you LOSE!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 10, 2003.

THE FOUNDATION of the CHURCH -- PRE-CONSTANTINE: (Dates and sources fully cited).

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, HAVING BEEN BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF BEING THE CORNERSTONE. Ephesians 2:20

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Clement,Epistle to Corinthians,42,44 (A.D. 98),in ANF,I:16,17

"Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers." Cyprian,To the Lapsed,1(A.D. 250),in ANF,V:305

INFANT BAPTISM -- PRE-CONSTANTINE

"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." Irenaeus, Against Heresies,2,22:4 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:391

"And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family." Hippolytus of Rome, Apostolic Tradition,21(c. A.D. 215), in AT,33

"[T]herefore children are also baptized." Origen,Homily on Luke,XIV(A.D. 233),in JER, 65

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." Origen, Homily on Romans, V:9(A.D. 244),in JER,65

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous." Origen, Homily on Leviticus,8:3(post A.D. 244),in JUR,I:208

"But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day...And therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from baptism...we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons.." Cyprian,To Fidus, Epistle 58(64):2,6(A.D. 251),in ANF,5:353-354

"Have you an infant child? Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Fearest thou the Seal on account of the weakness of nature?" Gregory Nazianzen,Oration on Holy Baptism,40:17(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,7:365

"We do baptize infants, although they are not guilty of any sins." Chrysostom John,Ad Neophytos,(A.D. 388),in LCF,169

" 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by necessity." Ambrose,Abraham,2,11:79(A.D. 387),in JUR,2:169

"And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God's earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized." Augustine,On Baptism against the Donatist,4:24:31(A.D. 400),in NPNF1,IV:461

Once again, you err so greatly!

Did you know that it was Constantine that insisted that the canon of the N.T. be finally decided? The various letters of the apostles as well as NUMEROUS other church writings were being read from church to church, but no canon had thereupon been decided UNTIL THE LATE 300'S. Therefore he called an assembly of the Bishops, sent them to conference until they could determine which N.T. books were canonical? CONSTANTINE! You need to stop getting your information from Jack Chick or some other anti-Catholic basher.

The N.T. you hold and quote so vehemently AGAINST the Church was assembled and declared canonical BY THE CHURCH! Of course, your O.T. is missing 7 books REMOVED by your Protestant Reformers.

Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).

The Third Council of Carthage was not a general council but a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine.

Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.

I know I said I wasn't going to correspond with you, but the false information and downright lies that you perpetrate here on and on ad nauseam demand a rebuttal; if not for you then for others who may be reading this thred.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 10, 2003.

Gail,

The writings you quote are all in rebuttal to those that opposed the practice of "infant baptism". Obviously, the un-regenerated opinion won out, and the false "doctrine of devils" was added and practiced.

You assume that the "correct doctrine" won out, I know better. You assume that Peter is the "rock", I KNOW that Jesus Christ is THE ROCK"

But in the early church, it was not done, neither is it EVER mentioned in ANY of the letters by the apostles. The correct BIBLICAL truth says,

1. They heard the gospel 2. They repented, and called on the name of the Lord to saved them 3. They were baptized, as an outward showing of an INWARD change, by the Holy Spirit.

"The Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall DEPART FROM THE FAITH", and this is a perfect example of it! Giving heed to "doctrines of devils". Boy, is that ever the truth. The Romish church is FULL of them ! Forbidding to marry ? sound familiar ???, abstaining from meats ???? sound familiar ????

They departed, and insisted on doing things that "seemed" right in their own understanding. But it was CONTRARY to the WORD of GOD.

In the WORD of GOD, it NEVER says or implys that an infant was, or should be baptized. In ALL accounts in ACTS, they received the TRUTH, they repented, and THEN they were baptized.

What you are quoting to me is ERROR ! The reason that "they will believe a lie", is because they have abandoned the WORD OF GOD< and are depending, like you are, on the writings of men, and not GOD.

GOD says, there is ONE MEDIATOR between men and God,

but you no doubt, believe the LIE that Mary also is a mediator and that, as your Catholic writers have said,

"Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order, for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it decends to us" Pope Leo XIII Sept.8, 1904

You have no excuse for this blasphemy do you Gail ?? The Roman Catholic cult has made Mary a Mediator, in direct opposition to the WORD OF GOD ! And worse yet, they have lifted her up, and made her the Queen of Heaven, the Earth, the UNIVERSE !!!! But you believe it right Gail ??? WHy ??? because you love man's words, rather than GOD's WORD which says something contrary. But you will side with MAN.

COME OUT FROM HER !! She is a Harlot ! Drunken with the blood of the saints !

God help them !what blasphemy ! No doubt, it is one of the lies which they will believe! because they RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH ("thy WORD is TRUTH")

The bottom line Gail, is that you people don't know what to believe, because you think that it is ALL the word of GOD.

In any of those books that you listed in your Canon 24, WHERE DOES IT TALK ABOUT the baptizing of INFANTS?

How about the lifting up of , and all the fables about Mary?

How about CLEAR scriptures on Purgatory ?

How about, the priesthood, and the continuation of sacrifices ?

How about holy water ?

How about the making of and use of graven images in the worship of the Living God ?

How about the praying to the dead ? And what you call the Saints ?

Or any of the other voodoo that you do ?

You use error, to prove error. WHY ? because you "received NOT the love of the TRUTH, that you might be saved"

What is the TRUTH ? Jesus said I am the TRUTH, and John's gospel said, the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us.

Then, Jesus said to the HOLY FATHER (that is GOD by the way),

"thy WORD is TRUTH"

In Christ, (an still not buying the voodoo or the Great Harlot, that sits on the 7 hills of ROME),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 10, 2003.

Gail,

A perfect example of the error is your own quote:

"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God' no one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by necessity." Ambrose, Abraham,2,11:79 (AD 387) in Jur, 2:169

The above statement has made a GRAVE error in scripture. The scripture says, (John 3:5) "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot inter into the kingdom of God"

The additon of "again" after "born" is very telling. It was added to justify the understanding that the act of baptism, imparts the Holy Spirit to a person, regardless of his or her age.

The term "born of water and of the Spirit" is obviously

(unless it is hidden unto them which are lost, in whom the god of this world hath blinde the minds of them which beleve not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God should shine unto them)

referring to the 2 births ! The first birth, that of the flesh, "of water" (the woman's water breaks, and the baby comes out)and the second being born of the Spirit.

This is why it says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

but , again, the "un-regenerated" man, does not receive the things of the Spirit, neither can heknow them, and he insists on saying that the "water birth" is talking about baptism.

WRONG again, and the error continues generation after generation after generation.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"

In CHrist Jesus (the ONLY mediator between men and GOD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 10, 2003.

This poor soul is in invincible ignorance. A contrived interpretation such as , ''. . . referring to the 2 births! The first birth, that of the flesh, "of water" (the woman's water breaks, and the baby comes out) and the second being born of the Spirit. This is why it says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.--''

--Is odd and self- negating by its bizarre nature alone.

We know Saint Peter in Acts 10 :47, says about his Gentile converts, ''Can anyone refuse the water to baptise these, seeing they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?''

Maybe he meant, go find us a woman giving birth. Bring here the broken water-bag for a baptism??? Only a stooge for the devil would want to push that interpretation.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 10, 2003.

Holy Spirit,

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 10, 2003.

Jay;
All men and women (and infants) are born again; I am too! In Holy Baptism! Are you baptised, little brother? THEN you were really ''born again''. But you have since fallen into sin. The sin of heresy , and the loss of faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

Eugene said,

"all men and women are born again, I am too in Holy Baptism"

this shows your complete lack of understanding of the term Born Again.

You are assuming that you are already born again, and that this came by the "priest", imparting the Holy Spirit on you at what?? infant baptism ???

How can an infant beleive? repent ?, or "call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved ?

You are showing that you are NOT born again by saying that .

"For the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, for they are Spiritually discerned"

That verse fits you to a "T". You think what I am saying, about the "water" (in John Chpt 3) being the FIRST BIRTH of MAN, in the flesh.

But, if you had eyes to see, you would realize that Christ was answering Nicodemus about his question about having to enter his mother's womb a SECOND TIME.

Jesus was saying, no, the birth by the womb of your mother is the birth in the flesh, or "water", and then, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN, this time of the Spirit of GOD.

Eugene, if you thing that what I am saying is FOOLISHNESS, then I ask you to prayerfully consider 1 Cotinth. 2:14.

Water baptism is to be done AFTER a person receives Jesus Christ (by faith) as his or her Savior. It is an obedient act of faith, that shows a "picture" of what happened to a person invisibly when they get saved.

That is why Jesus said, "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT"

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, YE MSUT BE BORN AGAIN"

Eugene, YOU must be born again too. No, it is not something that MAN does, .................GOD does it !

When you cry out to HIM in repentance, "For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord (Jesus Christ) shall be saved"

Does that mean, they will be saved eventually ? or hopefully ?

NO !

it means, RIGHT THEN AND THERE ! YOU RECEIVE the HOly Spirit of promise, and are SEALED unto the day of redemption !! and you KNOW IT !

Eph 1:13-14

Speaking about Jesus Christ, the Spirit says:

"In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye heard the word of truth,

the "WORD OF TRUTH" ? Yes, "thy Word is TRUTH" said Jesus to the Holy Father (GOD)

...the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE

you see ??? AFTER you believed, you were SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT.

HOW can you have BELIEVED as an infant ???

the Holy Spirit, ....Which is the earnest (deposit) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of HIS glory.

We receive the HOLY SPIRIT, and that Spirit relates to OUR spirit that we are saved. It gives us an assurance of being SAVED>

That is why a true BORN AGAIN believer would NEVER pray to Mary, and ask her to pray for them at the hour of their death,

Because we KNOW that we have already been saved !!! AMEN !! and AMEN!!!

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY mediator between men and GOD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

You will find as you read the Church fathers that when they quote scripture many times it does not EXACTLY match our translation. Of course, they were reading the original letters of the apostles, NOT a translation like we have today. Take a look at the dates of these quotes Jay, PRE-CONSTANTINE.

You said Constantine was the instigator of all things evil, yet you did not acknowledge Constantine's role in the N.T. you use as a viscious weapon. Oh how grievous it must be to the Lord that people such as yourself use his holy word in the manner like you do, throwing scripture out of context in order to maime, kill and destroy.

You think you know more than our founding fathers in the faith, which is INCREDIBLE! These men were disciples of the disciples of the disciples. The way they understood scripture and the gospel is infinitely MORE valuable than the heretics of our day. These men died martyrs deaths, being tortured, imprisoned and slain for the Word of the Lord. They were much much closer to the times of the apostles chronologically and therefore must have a more accurate view of the gospel AND scripture.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 11, 2003.

Gail,

What you do not understand is that the papacy has twisted even the writings of the so called "church fathers" to say what is consistant with what they believed.

Constantine was a murderer, and would not even be baptized until close to his death, because, in error, he thought that baptism itself removes sin, and saves, it does not. He was "un-regenerated", "un- saved".

Every new Pope had the monks, who were the "Xerox" machines of the Vatican before the printing press was invented, re-writing the works of the early so called "church fathers". The Vatican is the sole repository of the early writings of the early church fathers.

God promised to preserve His WORD , not the writings of the so called early church fathers. The monks had great job security. Every new pope meant that many works had to be re-written to make the so called early church fathers writings agree with the new pope. If the early chruch father's writings agree with the More Sure WORD of GOD, then he is right. If the so called early church father's writings dissagree with the WORD, then he is wrong. End of story.

As you can see from the quote I posted, the WORD was changed, to say what the writer (or re-writer) wanted it to say. It does not say, "Except a man be born "again" of water and of the Spirit". But if it did, then the false doctrine of infant baptism would be supported. So, the WORD was changed. THey, once again, "transgress the commandments of God with their TRADITIONS"

Peter, John, Paul all baptized according to Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them. Repent!, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

First, a baby does not know how to repent of sin, nor can he or she. They do not even know who Jesus is or what He preached.

Of the little children, Jesus said, "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" God makes a provision for the "children" to enter into heaven through Christ, and no superstitous "baptism" is the way. The WORD tells us how and when to baptize. AFTER a person REPENTS !

But your "religion" has changed the WORD of GOD, to suite its own belly, so that, when they grow up, they think that because they were baptized as a Catholic, that they are in a saveable state before God.

When they grow up, and enter wordly ways (sin), they go out to fornication with women/men, drunkennes, lusting, covetousness, cursing God's name in vain; and yet they think, oh, I am ok, because I was baptized. As long as I superstitiously go to church, once in a while, and go to confession, and then say some prayers, over and over and over, like the heathen, then I am alright with God. Also, the really sad part is, they are lead to believe that the state that they are in, is what it is like to be a saved Christian. They think that they have already received the Holy Spirit. Yet they don't feel as if they KNOW GOD, or feel His presence. Becasue THEY DON'T !! They are not even Christians. Not until they REPENT, and are BORN AGAIN! Then, they are to be baptized,(Eph. 1:13-14 AFTER they have heard the gospel of their salvantion, and AFTER they BELIEVE !!!! AFTER !

So deceived..... so sad. And why ? Because the false "doctrine of devils" was a LIE and told to them by the false CHURCH !

The TRUE church ?? NO, NOT THE TRUTH CHURCH ! The CHURCH contolled by the god of this world, Satan.

Only Satan would call a "man" , Holy Father !

The apostles would NEVER allow ANYONE to call them Holy Father !! NEVER !

Wake up Gail, and read the WORD, we are in the last days, and if it were possible, even the "elect" would be deceived !

The Marian dogmas are the key. They are antichrist. They DENY that Jesus Christ IS COME IN THE FLESH.

"EVERY GRACE granted to man has three degrees in order, for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to THE VIRGIN ?????, and from the VIRGIN ??? it decends to us ???

Hol on there !!!! That would make Mary a MEDIATOR between man, and GOD! "get thee behind me SATAN!"

And that was written by an infallable POPE ??? Get thee behind me Pope Leo XIII .....what a LIE! what blasphemy !! YOu have made a creature into a god, and are worshipping her, rather than the CREATOR who is blessed for ever. Amen

in Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator between men and GOD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

O ye of little faith!

can an infant believe? repent? or "call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved?--

I believe. I was baptised, born again in the sacrament of baptism. I have been given the faith and never lost it. It means I'm born again. The ''bath of regeneration'', says the apostle of Christ. Regeneration is re-birth. Born again. Infants have souls. They are given a re-birth by God. You don't know what the ''term'' means.

By the way, JG.

''Call upon the name''-- is it Christ's Holy Name alone we ''call upon''? You mean every heretic alive is saved? Just by this alone? Does God save false prophets? They love to call upon Jesus' name. For instance you. You're a false prophet, Jay. Does God approve of falshood? I'm saved by grace. He leads me in grace and love. He is Truth, and I believe in Him. More so than you do!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

What are you ? like..... 8 years old Eugene ??

Act like a man ! Talk like a man !

Your little snippy digs and remarks aren't gonna make up for the fact that you are believing a false gospel.

Jesus said to the Holy Father (that's God by the way, and not some old man in the Vatican)

"Sanctify them with thy truth; thy WORD is TRUTH"

What you beleive is not supported by the TRUTH, therefore , you are in error !

Did the apostles instruct us to baptize babies ??? NO !

END OF STORY

In Christ (Ye Must be BORN AGAIN),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

Oh, and as usual, Eugene, you have no understanding regarding "calling upon the name of the Lord"

"God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."

ANYONE, or "whosoever", that REPENTS, and calls upon the Lord for salvation, if they truly are repentant, and mean it, and of courese, "God looketh upon the heart of a man",

when they do it in true repentance, they WILL receive the Holy Spirit, and be BORN AGAIN.

That's how it happens. What you are thinking "born again" means, it nothing more than your "heart" faking you out, into believing that you are already in possession of what is called the Holy Spirit.

"the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?"

St. jay (of the King's royal priesthood)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

In John 3:3, Jesus reveals that which is necessary for salvation - being born again ... "Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot see the kingdom of God."

In John 3:5, Jesus explains what He was referring to in John 3:3 ... "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER and the SPIRIT he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Therefore, being "born of water and the Spirit" means the same as being "born again". Here Jesus tells us that being born again by receiving the Holy Spirit through the waters of baptism is the key to entering the kingdom, in other words, salvation.

Peter confirms this when he says "Corresponding to that, BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU -- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21)

Scripture is so beautifully clear from a Catholic perspective, and so hopelessly confusing from a purely human sola scriptura/personal interpretation approach. But one might expect that, considering that the Bible is a collection of Catholic writings, compiled by Catholics, for Catholics.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 11, 2003.

You ask:

''EVERY GRACE granted to man has three degreesin order, for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to THE VIRGIN and from the VIRGIN ??? it decends to us ???''

Grace hasn't been given to you yet, JG. You are just awaiting grace. How can a false prophet & heretical fanatic be in grace?

Grace is Christ's to give. He won the grace for us dying on the cross, rising again. His Church has that grace for all the faithful.

We all pray to Him, and to the saints. HEgives me & the other faithful and the Church-- through her, Mary: grace and love.

Just as He once blessed the wedding banquet of Cana. Mary asked that day for His grace!!! On behalf of others. Not for herself; she is FULL OF GRACE! (Luke 1:28). She obtained and gave them a miracle! .(John 2 :8-9). have no faith. You depend on the written Word; and leave out anything in that Word that might support Christ's Holy Church. So, the Word is neutralised in you.

But since the devil rules your imagination and exploits your lack of faith, you go on thinking you're a Chrisitian, born again.

Only believers can be born again; even a baby, who does not fight God's grace. A baby is like Mary after baptism: full of sanctifying grace. He remains in the grace after that, except if he sins. He can't, because he's innocent.

Later, the adult may lose the grace by sin. He is forgiven in another sacrament which restores grace, Penance, or Reconciliation. The Church makes the grace return to him. From Christ, through Mary! You have never been forgiven your sins. You live as a servant of Satan.

You can't get grace just by reading words you fail to understand. You've failed to understand anything in the Holy Bible.

You read without realising, the Bible was written by Catholic saints for the Church and her converts. You need conversion yourself!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

Just got your post, JG. Thanks!
You say:''Jesus said to the Holy Father (that's God by the way, and not some old man in the Vatican)''

--

Our old man in Rome is the Holy Father, JG. Our Father who is in heaven is really called Our Father Almighty; not the name Holy Father. See how you bust up the truth? The Pope really is holy. He is holy because God makes him so; for His Church. His Church is HOLY as well; even if sinners may exist in her. We are that field Jesus spoke of in a parable. In the Church are the faithful, WHEAT. Among us are sinful men, the weeds, or tares. God is the Landowner, who sowed His seed, the Holy Gospel.

The Holy Father (Vicar of Christ on earth) hears the Landowner saying, ''An enemy has done this.''-- and, ''No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.''

You are learning something new every day here in this forum, Jay!

I'm 65 years old. I've talked like a man since before you were born, I think. I am Thank God, ''sanctified in the truth''; that's why I can speak to you and even teach you the truth. Don't worry about digs. You're tough, you can take it. I'm treating YOU like a man. Be a man, JG; don't cry. You seem very immature sometimes. I pray for your eyes to be opened. It's sure to happen, you'll see.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

youre 65 eugene? wow, i didnt know that. learn something new every day i guess.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 11, 2003.

paul,

the "water" refers directly to the "flesh" (this being the first birth, the one that ALL human beings partake of) The woman's "water" breaks, and the baby comes forth into this life in the FLESH.

then, the 2nd birth is to be born "again",

it is a birth of the spirit of a man, by the Spirit of God.

Scripture may be "beautifully clear from a Catholic perspective, but that doesn't mean it is right from the Spirit's perspective.

"There is a way which "seemeth" right unto a (catholic) man, but the end thereof are the wasys of death"

Of course, the blind man that has NEVER seen, can't know what seeing even is, and he "thinks" he can see just find, (the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it), until his eyes are opened.

Thus the song writer's words, "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see.

"Your sins have seperated you from your God",

but , when a man/woman repents, and crys out to the Lord for salvation, he/she receives the REMOVAL of their sins, thus, restoring the relationship between them and their God, and they now KNOWN God and He knows them.

I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh)

"not the putting away of the filth of the flesh", this pertains to SIN ! not dirt ! This verse is saying that baptism does not save us by the act itself "removing sin", but rather............

but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Paul, why would Peter say, (as you have implyed) that baptism "doth also now save us", and be referring to being saved by removing dirt from our body?

Removing physical dirt from the body, as anyone knows, has nothing what so ever to do with salvation.

No, Peter is saying, that baptism doth now save us, not by removing sin through the ritual, but by showing that we have been saved, and now have a CLEAR CONSCIENCE towards God, by the resurrection of JEsus Christ.

DO NOT MARVEL !!! "Ye Must Be Born AGAIN".

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator between men and God),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

Eugene,

Once again, "ye do err, not knowing the scriptures."

Your fairy tale esplainations "seem" to sound ok, but so does all the other man-made religions of the world. Yours, like all the others, have been created in the vanity of the human mind.

You can go on and on, repeating Romish error over and over, and using Romish error to defend more Romish error..... but, the bottom line is, the scriptures are a witness against you.

"There is ONE Mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus"

To say that Pope Leo XIII is right, since you must, is contrary to the more sure WOrd of GOD.

ALL GRACES certainly DO NOT have 3 degrees in order. For by God, it is communicated to Christ , and then to us !

Jesus Christ is the ONLY MEDIATOR between us and GOD!

Did Mary die for your sins? Were you baptized in the name of Mary ?

Blasphemy and an abomination ! Total LIES made up by the father of LIES, with Pope Leo XIII at the helm of the ship, as he steared it into "doctrines of devils",

"having his conscience seared with a hot iron", no doubt, also believing in "forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats." The ROMISH CHURCH is described by the WORD to a "T", and it is a witness against it ! Like this one:

II Corinth 11:13-14 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Once again, "ye transgress the commandments of God by your traditions."

"In vain do they worship Me, making for doctrines the commandments of men"

In Christ Jesus (no voodoo please !),

St. jay (of the King's Royal Priesthood)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

the "water" refers directly to the "flesh" (this being the first birth, the one that ALL human beings partake of) The woman's "water" breaks, and the baby comes forth into this life in the FLESH''--

---------------------

Peter says about his Gentile converts, ''Can anyone refuse the water to baptise these?'' (Acts 10:47)

Naturally Jay has problems understanding this. Because he serves the devil in this world. Talk about flesh! Jay has all flesh, no spirit.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

''. . . for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (You ought to know, JG--) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers (Speaking of you, yes, I see--) of righteousness; (and of bible-wisdom!) whose end shall be according to their works. (You can say that agin. We continue to pray for you, Jay. Patron saint of lies. Good right hand of the devil. (The devil HATES everything about Baptism. It robs him of souls. Were you baptised, JG? Or . . . ???

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

A red evil spirit; sitting on Jay's shoulder, whispers:

''Tell them it's not water! Tell them, it's baby fluid or a busted water bag, --Tell them ANYTHING; but stop baptising!!! I hate them!''

JG: ''I'll try, Master. But they ain't buying it! Haha!!!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

Eugene,

The physical act immersing a person into the water, is an outward ritual, designed to portray the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is an act of obedience to the Word Of God, and it is a picture of what happened to a peron that has been born again.

I can remember like it was yesterday, when I got saved, and then how my parents came to my baptism. At the baptism, I gave my testimony, telling all those that were there how I cryed out to the Lord, and how He answered me, and saved me, and "opened my eyes", by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

My parents and all those that attended, were able to hear, for the first time in their lives, the clear, simple plan of God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

They were told that each person must be "born again", by personally calling upon Jesus CHrist, in faith, to save them.

And guess what ! Within a year of my baptism, my mother, my wife to be, my best friend and his wife, and my father got saved !

In fact, I baptized my father. He passed away on Feb. 20, 1999. And at his funeral, I was able to give the testimony of his salvation to others, and gave the gospel at the funeral!

You see, Eugene, I know that my father got saved. How do I know ?

Because my father used to be a really angry person, all his life. I never saw him laugh or smile. He was miserable ! And so was my mother!

But in instant that my father "called upon the Lord Jesus Christ to save him", I saw a change! He became a NEW CREATURE. Everyone that knew my father asked about him. He was changed by the Holy Spirit!

And my father got baptized. WHy? because the Lord commands it, and becaue my father now loved the Lord, and wanted to obey His word.

Baptism comes AFTER salvation, the NEW BIRTH. And it is another way to reach the lost.

God knows what He is doing, and He knows that to see a person officially and publically stand up and confess the name of JEsus Christ and then be baptized is not done to "remove the filth of the flesh (sin), but it is to proclaim a new clean conscience towards God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

in Christ Jesus (the Only Mediator between mena and GOd),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

Jay,
Believe me, I'm happy to hear you were baptised. You don't understand baptism, but at least you can enter the kingdom of heaven; provided you're faithful to God.

In your present state, you aren't. Neither is your family. You live by a heretical faith; a faith not of the holy apostles.

You can repent and be forgiven. It may seem as if you'd never change your mind; but God works in mysterious ways. (His wonders to peform!)

One excellent sign is that you came to us. You came to bother us with false doctrines, and curse our Church like a demon. It's because the devil wishes to keep you away from Truth. He controls the world through ignorance and lies.

You sure have bothered me; but now you have real access to the apostle's genuine teachings; in the Catholic Church. --Before, you were at the mercy of your whims, reading the scriptures. We can help you understand them!

If God weren't trying to give you the truth, He would never send you here. And I would never have gone looking for you. BUT HERE YOU ARE! The devil certainly doesn't want you here, JG. It endangers his power over your mind.

The works of your mind, Jay, have led you into gross errors. But one truth didn't get wiped out completely; A CATHOLIC TRUTH: the power of Baptism to make you a new creation in Christ. To have you born again. You are BORN AGAIN not before-- but by Baptism.

The truth, finally exposed for you. Satan didn't want you to see it, JG. But God wanted it, so He brought you here.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

nice try eugene,

but God sent me here to give you the gospel, and to tell you that the Marian dogmas are antichrist!

Your man-made "religion" is just that. You think that you have all the truth, and as Rev. 3:17 says, "because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched , and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."

you think that you have "the" church, and don't realize that you are actually blind, wretched, miserable, and naked.

And don't say that you have the "fathers" behind you, because the father's writings have been changed and forged to say what ever herecies each pope wanted or needed them to say.

No, you Eugene, are the epidemy of the Pharisee.

Relying on your own writings, and not living by "every word that proceeeds out of the mouth of God"

"Search the scriptures, for in them ye think that ye have eternal life", and they are they that tell of Jesus Christ and the NEW BIRTH!

But seeing, ye cannot see, and hearing ye hear not! Just like the Pharisees.

"making for doctrines the commandments of men"

it's a pity, but "they are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch"

Look at the "fruits" of this so called "mother" church. "for by their fruits ye shall know them.

Murderings, and fornications, and idolatry, and graven image worship, and homosexuality.

Yea, it's the "mother" church allright. The "mother of Harlots"!!

"COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, AND BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS" !

in Him, (the WORD come in the FLESH),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 11, 2003.

Jay,
The ''fruits of the church?'' Every sin you can think of? You must think (no, you're sure) I'm a murderer, a prostitute, a baby-killer, or an atheist.

But, I'm a man who loves Jesus christ enough to die for him! Just as your own ancestors likely loved him, and they all were catholics! Are your own ancestors the ''evil fruit'' of that ''harlot''--? You dishonor your own family.

I would too, if my family had denied God; or if my family had reneged on the faith of the apostles. But I''m afraid that for you; to dishonor your Catholic forebears, is truly ''fruit'' from the hand of the devil.

Look at the sins in your own Bible-Belt. Lynchings of black people, Ku Kluz Klann (I'm trying to keep this out of the Google directory)-- all of them ''Bible Christians''!!! Talk about your rotten fruit! Till finally, Jimmy Carter has quit the Baptists, after being one all his life! It gave a pass to homosexual marriages. (Or something.)

Now, about Rome: You say, ''COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, AND BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS"-- Like some holy roller. Here's what Saint Paul says about her,

''To all God's beloved who are in Rome, called to be saints, grace to you & peace . . . First I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed all over the world.'' (Rom 1, :7- 8).

Funny; Paul didn't say ''Come out of Rome;'' he said the faith in Rome was known to all the world! (Still is!, Haha!) In fact, when someone says all over the world, it means universally or Catholicly. Catholic is universal, in Greek. Nice try, JG, patron saint of the absurd. Beelzebub's Bubba.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

Hey Jay, you said,

"What you do not understand is that the papacy has twisted even the writings of the so called "church fathers" to say what is consistant with what they believed. Every new Pope had the monks, who were the "Xerox" machines of the Vatican before the printing press was invented, re-writing the works of the early so called "church fathers". The Vatican is the sole repository of the early writings of the early church fathers."

You have got to be kidding? I have not heard even ONE REPUTABLE Protestant ever make such a claim. The writings of the fathers can be found on line at ccel.org in their entirety. You may also find there the writings of Calvin and Luther and others. The site itself is NOT maintained by Catholics.

Scholars of every denominational swing have poured over these documents to determine their authenticity. Spurious fragments have been found, but are noted as such. What is deemed authentic IS authentic.

So God is powerful enough to "preserve His word," by swaying the thoughts and actions of Catholic Bishops in the 400's, but He is not powerful enough to keep His church free from all error -- as He said to His disciples, "The Holy Spirit will lead you into ALL the truth."

You are completely insane in your quest to debunk the claims of the Church!

You are lower than a spoonbill catfish on the bottom of the muddy Mississippi slurping up vermin in your attempt to find something -- ANYTHING that you can then come to the surface with and spew forth out of your mouth, hoping against hope that it will look like something edible!

Your arguments are thinner than wet tissue paper!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 11, 2003.

Gail,
Your distaste is more than justified. Yet, we must know by now; JG isn't here on a religious crusade. He unwittingly serves the devil. When a catholic-basher comes calling and very forthrightly attacks devotion to Mary as a main platform of his hatred, you can be sure Satan is in the wings. --Satan is her sworn enemy.

But he can't get at Mary, ever. She hardly cares what he thinks of her, either; she only cares about her Divine son and His faithful. The devil does whatever he can, in this limited way to belittle and demean the mother of God. By getting his dupes, like JG, to spend days at a time, holding kangaroo court here on Mary the Blessed Virgin.

He works on the prejudices of his puppet, Jay Gentile; to rouse him to publish vindictive lies. It's pathetic.

We must pray very hard. God will deliver Jay from the obsessions of the devil, if we have faith. It's natural to protest at him, as you have. But we must also help him with our earnest prayers. Particularly to The Holy Virgin Mary, who wants to recover him for her Son.

I ask you to meditate on these words a while. I value your every contribution, and really appreciate your entering this thread to help me. I was getting lonely.

It has seemed for about the last 3 days nobody cared enough to lend me assistance. Only Paul and yourself. I guess the others think it's easy for us who attempt the impossible for the faith. Easy, or not worth the bother. But Jay's soul is precious to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, believe me, Gail. For His sake, we ought to stay close and offer Jay our help.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 11, 2003.

Well, okay, Eugene, maybe I was tad too hard on Jay. Jay, if I offended you, I apologize! (Had to deal with public school kids all day!)

Jay, it would be terribly nice if you could refrain from throwing scriptures at us. A person can substantiate absolutely any concept they have by taking parts of scripture out of context and then slinging them like mud.

I was a Protestant for 20 years. I have been in fundamentalist groups, I have been in charismatic groups, and I have been in mainline denominational churches. I have been "born again" for many many years. I am not going to bash any of these churches because I learned a lot, and I came to know Christ in a "Shepherding" charistmatic church. So when I speak against Protestantism I am speaking about it's structure, ie, looking at the foundation!

I began to study the early church writings in an earnest attempt to see what that church looked like. I WAS NOT looking for the Catholic Church. I just wanted the real enchilada. I wanted to "go back from whence I came."

Catholic monks did NOT rewrite the historical documents of which even Protestants rely. Just this morning I was reading Ignatius' letter to the Trallians (published in The Apostolic Fathers, Volume I, Loeb Classical Library, Harvard); here is an exerpt from Chapter VII:

"Beware therefore of such men (heretics) and this will be possible for you, if you are not puffed up, and are inseparable from God, from Jesus Christ and from the bishop and the ordinances of the Apostles. HE WHO IS WITHIN THE SANCTUARY IS PURE, BUT HE WHO IS WITHOUT THE SANCTUARY IS NOT PURE; that is to say whoever does anything apart from the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons is not pure in his conscience."

Now, Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John, and sat directly under his tutelage. I post this excerpt to show that the Church was and is organic. It was and is based on unity, the unity that Jesus asked for, the unity that Apostle Paul wrote about. Early church writings are replete with exhortations to fall in line with the Bishops and presbyters, submitting to their authority. Unity was paramount.

No where can you find in the writings of the early church a prescription for sola scriptura. In fact, I could post a host of quotes warning AGAINST such a notion, because the Bishops knew that would lead to heresy and division. (Lo, and behold, so it has!)

The Church Fathers, the traditions of our faith, are the living stones of our Church stemming FROM scripture, and tracing back to the apostles themselves. The strength of the Church is found in its foundation. The Protestant church is built on the shifting sand of MAN'S devices, MAN'S ideas, pet doctrines, MAN'S interpretation or misinterpreation of scripture. Our traditions are "God breathed, God inspired," and given to us as gifts from God -- A glimpse of His heavenly kingdom -- the jewels of the faith are found in our traditions given to us by God!

If Protestantism had the "blessing of God" there would NOT BE DISUNITY and confusion. God is a God of order, not confusion. Like Korah in the wilderness leading a rebellion against Moses, so is the Protestant church.

This notion about Constantine being the corrupter of the church is a Protestant notion they use to debunk the Church and legitimize themselves. Yet you can find NO evidence that Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Thomas e Kempis and NUMEROUS other PILLARS of the Church EVER thought that!

Jay, if the Church IS the Church Jesus founded, then you are in rebellion against GOD! That really is the question: Is the Catholic Church the House that Jesus built?

Gail

P.S. Just last night I had a conversation with a dear friend of mine in a Charismatic Word of Faith Church. They believe that God intends for ALL believers to live in health and wealth, and they can prove it by scripture! Anyway, a fellow in her church has been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He has refused treatment, deciding instead to "stand on the Word of God," and is awaiting his miracle. My friend thinks that is great! She is supporting him in his effort to "get from God" what God has promised!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 12, 2003.

Gail,

You said, "I have been born again for many years. I would like to know if you would care to tell me your testimony ? How did you become "born again" ?

Thanks,

jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 12, 2003.

Dear Jay:
You've contacted me by email; and say, ''Or the rocks will cry out.''

But, why not rather ask your questions here, and all the forum can see & answer them? I have no private arguments with you or anybody. Ask again in here, please.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 12, 2003.

Hi Jay,

I responded to an altar call at that "shepherding" charismatic church I mentioned. The music was wonderfully contemporary (for the 70's and 80's), the sermons were high energy, the atmosphere was very appealing to young people. This was during the 70's "Jesus movement" that swept through the country, starting in California, I believe. It was during that time that contemporary Christian music came on the scene with bands like 2nd Chapter of Acts, Keith Green, Phil Keaggy. It was very coooool!

Anyway, long story short, I attended that Word of Faith church I mentioned for 8 years, but the messages of Health and Wealth never really appealed to me. It seemed so carnal and self-interested, BUT I love the people there dearly, it's just not for me.

So we left there in search of something a little deeper, richer. Assembly of God was a possibility, but their teaching on tongues (in my opinion) is not scriptural. We loved the teaching at Wesleyan, especially on holiness -- they are really big into that, but they think that you won't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until you are "entirely sanctified."

It was then I started to ask questions, lots and lots of questions; like how come Protestants don't have the apochrypha in their Bibles. What happened to the early church? How come the early church leaders write on purgatory, Mary, the Eucharist, etc., etc.? NO ONE COULD ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. I spoke to three pastors. Only one could tell me that the N.T. wasn't canonized until the late 300's.

I even called Hank Hanegraf (the Bible Answer Man) and I didn't get ANY clear cut answers, just evasive double-talk.

I never even thought of the Catholic Church. It was through a very strange (supernatural) set of circumstances and stumbling across the church fathers that sparked my interest. It is exactly what I had been craving for years, and didn't know it. It is charismatic, it is holy. The lyrics to the music we sing supercedes ANY music heretofore. The scripture readings, the responsorial singings. I was in heaven! I am blessed to know many "devout" Catholics who take their faith very seriously, love the Lord and are not afraid to show it.

I've got to go. It's storming. You know, modems and all that!

Thanks for asking Jay. I appreciate having a real conversation with you.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 12, 2003.

Only because Gail somehow forgot to say, JG; I'll speak for her.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 12, 2003.

Gail was born again in the hour of her baptism, Jay. Same as you were. However, after reaching the age of reason, she returned to the faith of the apostles to stay. God had mercy on her. He'll have mercy on you, I hope. You also have to return. Grace can make you understand, and we'll pray God will grant you His grace.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 13, 2003.

Eugne,

Gail answered for herself just fine. But once again, you didn't have eyes to see (no understanding).

She responded to a call from the pastor, for each person that had "heard" the gospel, to respond in faith, and "for whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED>"

Now, if Gail did that, in faith, believing that she was a sinner, and that Jesus (alone) could save her if she repented and called out to Him, then she received the promise of the Holy Spirit.

Eph. 2:13-14

It was Jesus, "In whom (Gail) ye also trusted, AFTER that (Gail) ye "heard the WORD of TRUTH (thy WORD is TRUTH), the gospel of (Gail's) your salvation: in wom also AFTER that (Gail) ye believed, (Gail was) yewere sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (deposit) of (Gail's) our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (Gail's soul), unto the praise of His glory."

What you have done Eugene, is changed the "truth" once again. Typical of a man that is brain washed.

No, Gail got "saved" the way the Bible says it happens!

Acts 2:38 & 41

"THEN Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every on of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

"THEN they that gladly received his WORD were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls"

#1 REPENT #2 BELIEVE (they received the WORD) (Thy WORD is TRUTH) #3 Be Baptized (in obedience, not for the removing of the filth of the flesh (sin), but as a pledge of a good conscience towards God)

In Acts Chpt 8, Phillip gave the Ethiopian eunuch the WORD OF TRUTH about Jesus Christ. THEN, after he heard and believed!, he said, (Acts 8:36) "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized"??,

"And Philip said, IF thou believest with al thine heart, thou mayest."

You see ??? (probably not !)

Do you "love the truth" ??? or the "church's doctrines of devils" ???

An infant cannot "believe with all thine heart"

No Eugene, the truth was spoken by Gail. I don't need you to twist and spin her words into saying something that lines up with your false understanding and doctrines of devils.

Thanks anyway.. Save your brain washing for those that "love not the TRUTH ("thy word is truth")

In Christ Jesus (the LIVING WORD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 13, 2003.

Actually, while I did answer the call of God, if I had REFUSED baptism afterwards, my response to the altar call would have been irrelevant.

The Church teaches that if a person "desires" baptism but is unable to, through no fault of his own, that person's desire to be baptised will save him if he dies before baptism.

We are commanded to be baptized by scripture. It is not an option.

The Dispensationalist view is that baptism is NOT EVEN FOR today. They believe it is a slap in the face of Christ to get baptised. So none of their people have been baptized! The Dispensationalist Scofield (Schofield Bible) was one of several Dispensationalists who invented the rapture theory!

Jay, the Catholic church does not teach that a baptized child is saved no matter what. That child must become a disciple of Christ and "walk the walk," at the age of reason or at some point in their life. Infant baptism is done to declare to the world and God the parent intends to bring the child up in the Catholic faith.

Anyway, there are many denominations that baptize infants and many that don't, all for their various reasons. At least some Wesleyans, Methodists and Presbyterians do practice infant baptism. As is clear from history the question did come up in the early church and was settled then for the Church.

Gotta run,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 13, 2003.

Dear JG,
Everything you've quoted from the Good Book is very true. It's taken from the Catholic faith, so it ought to be!

The Bible is that great collection of writings given to the Catholic Church as the teacher of God's Word. You've quoted what Catholics were writing to their own faithful and to converts since Penetcost, 33 A.D. . On that day, 3,000 and even more converts came into the Catholic Church. It's only fitting the epistles of Peter & Paul and other Catholics should exhort us to call upon the name of the Lord. He is our Saviour.

You must also do that; and enter His Holy Church as your commitment to Him. You have part of the truth in these holy words you love so much. It's a pity you'll refuse the faith in the bargain. A heretical faith with anti-Catholic doctrines has no connection to Christ and His apostles. The book you quote is by Catholics, written for Catholics. Not for brainwashing; but for our sanctification in the truth.

If you'd really been saved and born again, by those tacky formulas you recommend, outside His Church, you would know all the truth.

But you have no spirituality to speak of. You simply memorize bits of scripture; like a kid collects baseball cards. For showing them off.

Real salvation is allowing God to teach you; not presuming here to teach His faithful. You can't be saved by embracing error. Unless it's for invincible ignorance.

God sometimes credits the upright and charitable aborigine, and saves him. His ignorance is not held against him. SOMETIMES. You are ignorant, but have yourself to blame. When you rebel against the truth.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 13, 2003.

Eugene,

Once again, you do "err not knowing the scriptures". Or worse yet, you know them, but do not Keep THEM.

All things whatsoever a man does, must be compared to the "scriptures", to see if those things are so. The Bereans knew this, it is a pity that you do not.

In his writings (since you hold the "fathers" writings above God's) Athanasius said, ( in the "conclusion" of The Divine Dilema & Its Solution In The Incarnation),

"Here then, Macarious, is our offering to yuo who love Christ, a brief statement of the faith of Christ and of the manifestation of His Godhead to us. This will give you a beginning, and you must go on to PROVE ITS TRUTH, by the STUDY of the SCRIPTURES."

It all comes down to the "love of the TRUTH", and you Eugene, love man's words rather than the Creator's who is blessed for ever.

The early "fathers" of the church were not Roman Catholic, or Baptist, or Methodist. They were Christians, and they held up the WORD of GOD above all, and measured all by it!

You vainly claim the canonization of the scriptures as a possession of the Romsih church. This too is very telling. For your vanity goes before your fall. Because of your vain attitude, you have not received the "love of the truth", ("thy word is truth"), and you WILL believe a lie (and already have)!

In CHrist Jesus (the only Mediator between men and God),

St. jay

Oh and to you Gail,

You too "err, not knowing the scriptures", for baptism itself is an obedient act or the "keeping" of the WORD. In and of itself, it has no mysterious power.

It falls under what Jesus said, "yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it". Remember, He saves "even those that call upon His name".

But, "for him that knows to do good (the will of GOD) and does it not, to him it is sin".

Don't forget, you went forward, and became "born again". NOTHING can change that! Jesus said, "depart from me for I NEVER KNEW YOU",

He did not say, "I knew you once, but then you didn't get "wet" like I said, so, now I don't know you anymore."

Your lack of confidence in your salvation is a bi-product of believing the false teachings of the Roman Catholic cult.

You need to READ, and BELIEVE the WORD! The TRUTH !

Not man's words, and man's paraphrases of the TRUTH ! Read it for yourself, and the Holy Spirit will quicken it to your spirit!

Love,

Brother Jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 13, 2003.

JG,
All your praise for the Bible and all the incense you burn before it just hands the victory over to our Holy Faith. You deny a need for faith; all you spend your time doing is touting the scripture. And every useless caricature you turn it into by your foolishness. Know-nothing Jar Gentile, saying, ''--you do "err not knowing the scriptures". Or worse yet, you know them, but do not Keep THEM.''--as usual just muddies the waters. You have no faith. Your church is not Christ's Church, and your private interpretation of the Bible is lame.

So, you muddy the water, with remarks like: ''You need to READ, and BELIEVE the WORD! The TRUTH !'' ''Err not knowing'' is your middle name: Jays Notknowing Gentile. You can't make these things up, Jay! Haha! Spiritual instruction is needed in the darkened soul you call your life. So, I'm glad you stick around here, where we can tinker with your evil humor. Learning to read the Bible as you do it would be like the devil's biblical address to Our Lord. He wanted Jesus to think all the kingdoms of the world were his to give away to whomever he pleased.

This being literally written in the gospel, you are sure to believe the lie. To your lack of discernment, the kingdoms WERE Satan's own; because it's in the Bible! Because the Bible is always literally true, for sola skipsolos like JayG. Born yesterday! And, always warning us, ''You too "err, not knowing the scriptures". Poor servant of Beelzebub! Bubba from the meetin house.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 13, 2003.

Good evening,

Jay, oh Jay, oh Jay, you said:

"Your lack of confidence in your salvation is a bi-product of believing the false teachings of the Roman Catholic cult."

Who says I have a lack of confidence in my salvation? Yes, Catholics believe we can lose our salvation, and there is much scriptural support for that. I realize there are some scriptures suggesting you cannot lose your salvation, but I think with regard to your eternal destiny it would be best to play it on the safe side! There are a lot of people out there who BOAST that they cannot lose their salvation and have no desire for sanctification whatsoever. "They got all they want -- a one way ticket to heaven!" They don't worry about Christ's numerous exhortations towards holiness, the costs of discipleship, etc.

Throughout Church history you can see that "once saved, always saved," was NOT the ticket.

I would be interested to know if you believe every element of the Apostles Creed? Some mainline denominations do not confess that as absolute truth anymore. Do you believe that a Christian MUST believe the creed before calling themselves a Christian? It would be awefully nice if we could find something we agree on!

I know I asked you before but I don't recall seeing a reply. What denomination or church are you with?

Have a nice weekend,

Gail

P.S. And Jay I know scripture quite well, I just believe it says something different than you do! I am much more comfortable staying on the "beaten path." Too many roads out there that lead to nowhere!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 13, 2003.

Gail,

I do not believe in a place that doesn't exist, (ie purgatory), nor do I beleive in the Christian praying to anyone except God. When the apostles said to Jesus, "Master, teach us to pray", He didn't tell them to pray to anyone but God the Father, and in His own name.

Now, concerning purgatory ? It is a figment of the Romish church's imagination. There is no scriptural basis for it; and , as Athanasius says of doctrine; "you must prove its truth by the study of the scriptures."

I see no need to paraphrase the "scriptures" into a paragraph like the "creed". By doing so, lends itself to people merely reciting it, and then "thinking" that they are a Christian.

"the heart (of man) is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?"

The true litmus test of being "in Christ" or not, is the NEW BIRTH.

"If any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE; old things pass away, behold! all things are become new"

Unless this truth (gospel) is being preached from the pulpit, the church is dead. "having a from of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from such turn away".

WIthout preaching, "Ye must be born again", the church pews are simply full of "un-regenerated" men and women, "thinking" that they are Christians, simply because they have done one or more of the following:

1. been baptized 2. recited and "think" they believe a creed or some other paraphrase of the scriptures 3. taken the "wafer" of bread, within some kind of ritualistic service 4. gone to "confession", and confessed some individual sins, and been given prayers to recite. 5. gone through a catechism program. 6. attended church "religiously"

These can easily convince the "un-regenerated" man that they are a "christian" when in fact , they are not.

No, Jesus said, "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". He was referring to "conversion".

A life changing personal introduction to the Lord Jesus Christ, and receiving of that "Holy Spirit of promise" that witnesses to our spirit that we are saved!

This is why He said, "Many shall say to me in that day, Lord ! Lord!..... and I shall say to them, depart from me, ye that worketh iniquity.....

for... I NEVER KNEW YOU."

To come to KNOW the Lord, is to be "born again".

And churches today are FULL of "MANY" un-regenerated men and women, thinking that they are christians, when they are NOT.

WHy? Because the true "gospel" is not being preached! Instead of the "gospel" of conversion and the New Birth, churches preach and teach humanism. Vain principles of "works" and "keeping the law".

"having a form of godliness....."

"if righteousness cometh by the keeping of the law, then Christ is dead in vain"

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but commandeth ALL men EVERY WHERE to REPENT!"

"God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE!"

"what must I do to be saved"

And Peter answered and said, "Repent! and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thous SHALT BE SAVED"

Did he mean, "thou shalt be saved" when you die ????

NO !!!

He meant right then and there! And to prove it, the Lord gives you the NEW BIRTH! Behold ! ALL things are become new!

But, the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, for they are Spiritually discerned (understood).

"that which is flesh is flesh", born of water,

but "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN", and the Spirit gives birth to the spirit of a man, when he/she REPENTS and "calls upon the name of the Lord; shall be saved!!!

Gain, there is no "man-made" creed to recite to MAKE a person a Christian!

As Jesus said, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"

In Him,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 16, 2003.

Hi Jay,

I just caught this thread today, and I noticed that you keep mentioning that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. Where do you get that? The "only," I mean. I know Jesus is a mediator, but "the prayers of a righteous man..."

Thanks, Catherine

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 16, 2003.

Jay, I don't think you know what Creed I am talking about. The Apostles' Creed was formulated in the very early church (3rd century or thereabouts) to encapsulate what Christians believe in order to PUT DOWN some of the heretics of the day, namely the Docet heresy (that Christ did not come in the flesh) and the Arian heresy (that Christ is not God). This Creed is believed by ALL Christians. I took the below from a Protestant Website. Please tell me what part you don't believe.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Amen.

*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I thought you said you were raised in a Catholic Church . . . ? It is IMPOSSIBLE to have been raised Catholic and not know the Creed since it is confessed at every mass.

Yes, Jay there are unregenerate people in all kinds of various churches. But I assure you that the Gospel is preached in the Catholic Church. It is portrayed on the walls of the church, the Creed professed at every mass, the Lord's supper celebrated at every mass. We spend months celebrating Easter, months celebrating Christmas. Our songs are scripture based and full of love and praise, worship and adoration to the Heavenly Father, the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We have three lengthy scripture readings at every mass. Our homilies are exhortations to live holy lives unto the Lord.

You simply have NO idea what you are talking about!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 16, 2003.

Gail,

The part of the "creed" that says, "the communion of saints" is where the R.C. error comes in. All that it implys and suggests is contrary to the WORD.

With regard to the "gospel", no, the R.C. church never preaches the WORD, or teaches the WORD from the pulpit. There are "messages", which are very humanistic. There is the reading of a small "portion" of one of the gospels. And by reading that small part, they believe that they have fulfilled the statement, "giving the gospel".

But the actual preaching of REPENTANCE and the NEW BIRTH found in "calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation" is not preached or taught.

Just the fact that there is no R.C. understanding of the "water" in John 3:3-8 shows clearly that the "blind lead the blind" there.

The "that which is born of the flesh is flesh" in John 3:6 is referring directly to "except of man be born of water" in John 3:5.

Nicodemus was questioning HOW he could possibly be "born again", since he was already so old and large. How could he possibly be "born again" ? But Jesus was saying, unless a man is born of Water/Flesh, and then born of Spirit/spirit. This is the truth.

But, if the scriptures are being understood without the knowledge of the new birth, then the water is "understood" as being the water of baptism.

No, Gail, the gospel of REPENTANCE and CONVERSION and being BORN AGAIN is not preached! The gospel of faith in the infant baptism, and eucharist, and other dogmas of the church are the real gospel that is preached.

In fact, almost every time I preach the "gospel" to an un- regenerated sinner, that happens to be Roman Catholic, they tell me;

"my priest says I am already born again".

You don't become "born again", and not know it !!!! It is a LIFE CHANGING EVENT!! "Old things pass away ! behold ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW!"

If not "saved" and "BORN AGAIN", the person that walks away from church should be asking themselves, "I wonder if there really IS something that could change my life"

I wonder , if I reject my sin, and seek God with "all my heart", if He will answer me personnally, like they (the born again Christians) are saying.

They need to be told that they MUST RECEIVE Jesus CHrist as Savior and be BORN from above! That is the POWER of GOD!

Gail, your faith is not in Jesus CHrist, and Him alone. Your faith is in the CHURCH! the teachings and all the various rituals of the CHURCH !

But Jesus said, "man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD"

Athanasious knew this, that is why he wrote his "The Divine Dilemma & Its Solution in the Incarnation", and then at the end he wrote:

"Here, then, Macarius is our offering to you who love Christ, a brief statement of the faith of Christ and of the manifestation of His Godhead to us. This will give you a beginning, and you must go on to PROVE ITS TRUTH; by the STUDY OF THE SCRIPTURES."

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"

In HIm,

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 16, 2003.

Dear Jay,

There is far more scripture read at every Catholic Mass than at most Protestant services. Attending Mass weekly assures that you will hear practically the whole written portion of God's Holy Word every three years (not counting private reading, Bible studies, etc.) In contrast is the "hit or miss" approach of most Protestant preachers, which leaves the people largely ignorant of what the scriptures contain. However, even more important is the fact that Catholics hear authoritative, accurate interpretation of the passages that are read, not just the private guesswork of the preacher.

If repentence and the new birth and calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation were not preached or taught in the Catholic Church, you would never have heard of such ideas, since Christian truth existed nowhere but the Catholic Church for most of the history of Christianity. If the Catholic Church had failed to preach a single doctrine of the faith, that doctrine would now be lost forever, since the Church is the only channel of divine truth God has provided to the human race. But don't worry, God guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would lead the Catholic Church to ALL truth. He also prophecied that many other groups, no longer wanting to hear sound doctrine, would establish their own churches, finding preachers who would tell them what they want to hear. Could there be a more specific or accurate prophecy about Protestantism?

"Nicodemus was questioning HOW he could possibly be "born again", since he was already so old and large. How could he possibly be "born again" ? But Jesus was saying, unless a man is born of Water/Flesh, and then born of Spirit/spirit. This is the truth. "

No, this is not truth. This is a typical convoluted attempt to justify a modern human tradition by doing violence to the Word of God. You correctly say that Nicodemus, in verse 4, is asking Jesus to explain what He said in verse 3 - which dealt with being BORN AGAIN - nothing else. Therefore, Jesus's response in verse 5 must be an explanation of verse 3 - nothing else. Therefore, "being born of water and the Spirit", in verse 5, is an explanation of how one becomes "born again" - nothing else. Therefore being "born of water and the Spirit" through the sacrament of baptism is the means by which one is "born again". This is so clear and straightforward, so difficult to misinterpret, it is little wonder the Church of Jesus Christ has consistently taught its true meaning for 2,000 years. But manmade sects do manage to twist even such a perfectly clear passage in their attempts to justify their new unbiblical doctrines. Sad.

" you must go on to PROVE ITS TRUTH; by the STUDY OF THE SCRIPTURES."

In fact, the scriptures have already been proven true by the discernment of the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, which preceded the Bible, which compiled the Bible, and which is the only way anyone can know that the scriptures are true. You know which writings should be considered scriptural only by the infallible discernment of the Catholic Church (except of course for those portions of God's Word that your human founders threw out). And yet you subject those same scriptures to the most unreliable, unsupportable method of study possible - personal interpretation. God didn't call you to decide which texts should go into the Bible, and He certainly didn't call you too decide what each text means. That is far, FAR above your ability, and the ludicrous self-interpretations you try to pass off as "truth" stand in blatant condemnation of your humanistic approach to God's word, and the very humanness of your entire tradition.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 16, 2003.

Dear Paul,
It's beautiful to see how charitably you explain all to JG; and never let stress make you impatient. His bigotry is hard to take; and I've gotten very confrontational as I let Jay have the truth. --You and I are cut out of different cloth. Both faithful to the Word of God, but one sensitive, and the other less careful.

Me. --Jay needs both charity and reproof. He serves the devil by his bigotted and crazy bible-thumping. (Notice no reason interrupts his shadow- boxing with Catholic truths? He keeps on swinging with glazed eyes! Lol!) He'll keep swinging at air, even with his back on the canvas! The devil doesn't want Jay to listen to reason. It might make him receptive to the Holy Gospel according to Our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan is opposed to that; he leads Jay to corrupt it. He has laid a bigot's gospel of men in Jay's way. And Jay tripped over it. Now he's a servant of the devil.

Notice too; Jay will not even observe his ancestral descent. His own family descends from Catholics. Not bigots, Catholics! The devil knows that, too. He makes Jay ignore the matter. It has no importance to the bigot; he serves Satan.

He can't say where the Holy Bible came from. He thinks it dropped from the sky; and needed nothing but Jay's ''holy'' interpretation to make it the Word of God! Ha! It's very plain. Jay's a Catholic-basher and bigot. He works for the devil. Therefore, I'll be sensitive, but not for his spiritual condition, nor his feelings as he intrudes in here.

I speak bluntly, like Saint John the Baptist rebuking Herod and Herodias. You speak like Saint Paul. Giving depth of spiritual wisdom & divine truth.

He needs both saints; and the holy intercession of the Queen of all saints. The Most Holy Virgin Mary! Jay can't stand the saints, nor the Mother of God. All of which points to his pact with-- You know. The Lord of the Flies, Beelzebub. His puppet-master.

Let us pray for this poor Bubba of Beelzebub. Drive the devil away from Jay, a lost soul, O Lord! Amen.

Holy Mary, Mother of the Word Incarnate, pray for the conversion of this son of blessed saints and martyrs, Jay Gentile; and may his blessed Catholic ancestors join us in our prayers, Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 16, 2003.

Jay, I have to disagree with you yet again. To say the Catholic Church doesn't teach repentence is UNBELIEVABLE! Constant repentence is what the Church REQUIRES! The walk of a Christian (per Catholocism) means DAILY conversion, not just once at an altar. It means a life dedicated to serving Christ, imitating Him wherever we go. It means continual confession and repentence. It means a life dedicated to holiness.

I trust in Christ ALONE for my salvation, and I trust the Church to guide me in my walk with Him! Christ is my REDEEMER!

You don't believe in the communion of saints . . .? You don't believe in attending church? Fellowshipping with other believers, etc.? You don't request your friends to pray for you when you need help? There's no such thing as a lone-range Christian, Jay.

Born again, to you, means a subjective experience that can in no way give you ANY assurance of salvation! Mormons have a subjective experience they call a "burning in the bosom," every time they read the "Book of Mormon." Does that experience validate their doctrine? NO WAY.

People in some churches get "slain in the spirit," have wild visions they KNOW are from God! Sell their homes, quit their jobs, go live in communes because they "know God told them to."

I know plenty of people who have had an "experience" but you know what? They don't walk the walk, they just talk the talk. They are rude, beligerant, unloving, self-seeking and manifest every other kind of fraudulent fruit!

You cannot base your eternal destiny on a "feeling."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 16, 2003.

Following is an excerpt from a debate between Joseph Gallegos and James White concerning St. Athanasius' "supposed belief in sola scriptura." This excerpt contains the FULL TEXT of Jay's misquote from above. The full text of this fascinating debate is found at http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/athans.htm and provided by Joseph Gallegos)

****** BEGINNING OF EXCERPT

The next passage is found in St. Athanasius greatest work,Oratio de Incarnatione Verbi(Incarnation of the Word):

"Let this, then, Christ-loving man, be our offering to you, just for a rudimentary sketch and outline, in a short compass, of the faith of Christ and of His Divine appearing to usward. But you, taking occasion by this, if you light upon the text of the Scriptures, by genuinely applying your mind to them, will learn from them more completely and clearly the exact detail of what we have said. For they were spoken and written by God, through men who spoke of God." [2] De Incarnatione Verbi 56(A.D. 318),NPNF2,XIV:66

Mr. White mistakenly discovers sola scriptura in this passage. One may be tempted to believe that the Patriarch of Alexandria is advocating sola scriptura if this passage is taken in isolation. In light of his other writings, St. Athanasius is advising Macarius(the Christ-loving man) read Scripture within the context of the Church's faith.

In the next sentence we read: "But we impart of what we have learned from inspired teachers who have been conversant with them, who have also become martyrs for the deity of Christ,to your zeal for learning, in turn." (ibid)

St. Athanasius brings together Scripture and the teaching Church in contrast to Mr. White's understanding. There is no such thing as an isolated reading of Scripture in the faith of St. Athanasius. We will see later, that St. Athanasius finds a private reading of Scripture apart from the traditional faith of the Catholic Church as the fatal flaw of heretics.

******* END OF EXCERPT

Whoops, Jay, me thinks ye have been fooled again!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 16, 2003.

Thank you, Gail; an excellent rebuttal of ''St. Bubba of the child Beelzebub''.

The clear words, ''learn from them more completely and clearly the exact detail of what we have said; (The Catholic Fathers) --For they were spoken and written by God.'' The saint was exhorting them to follow Catholic interpretations.

The words went over Jay's head. Just as my own reminder his forebears were Catholics in origin. He closes his eyes to the truth.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 16, 2003.

Hey Eugene, I'm glad you read it, as I doubt J will not.

Check this out, also from Mr. Gallegos, but I love the Iraneus quote he uses:

********* BEGINNING OF EXCERPT

Cutting and pasting writings to reinterpret their original and intended meaning is a common practice of the early heretics. Irenaeus commenting on the Gnostics' use of Sacred Scripture writes:

"In doing so, however, they disregard the order and the connection of the Scriptures, and so far as in them lies, dismember and destroy the truth. By transferring passages, and dressing them up anew, and making one thing out of another, they succeed in deluding many through their wicked art in adapting the oracles of the Lord to their opinions. Their manner of acting is just as if one, when a beautiful image of a king has been constructed by some skilful artist out of precious jewels, should then take this likeness of the man all to pieces, should rearrange the gems, and so fit them together as to make them into the form of a dog or of a fox, and even that but poorly executed; and should then maintain and declare that this was the beautiful image of the king which the skilful artist constructed, pointing to the jewels which had been admirably fitted together by the first artist to form the image of the king, but have been with bad effect transferred by the latter one to the shape of a dog, and by thus exhibiting the jewels, should deceive the ignorant who had no conception what a king's form was like, and persuade them that that miserable likeness of the fox was, in fact, the beautiful image of the king."

Irenaeus,Against Heresies,I,8:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:326

The Gnostics rearranged selected texts from Scripture to peddle their doctrines as apostolic. The selected texts were apostolic and not the cut and paste meaning. Those familiar with the purport of the Apostles' teaching were able to discern the Gnostics heresy.

******** END OF EXCERPT

Is that B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L, or what? Gee, do we know anyone like that?

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 16, 2003.

Gail,

1. To say things that I never said, especially regarding the "communion of saints", is to me "unbelieveable"!! I made a specific comment about the false R.C. doctrine of "purgatory", and about the praying to saints and of course the deitification of Mary that the R.C.'s partake in. As far as fellowship with other believers, and intercessory prayer, that is clearly taught in scripture.

2. It's funny how you "imply" that Athanasius was talking about "reading scripture in the context of the "church's faith", even though he never says that. Talk about reading between the lines. You are reading, within a foundation built on sand, and don't even know it.

Athanasius was CLEARLY voicing his belief in the over-all superiority and authority of the scriptures as a final judgement of whether or not those things that he has said were true. You can twist and spin it anyway you want, but his words remain written (for now anyway, until the papacy re-writes what they don't like).

3. REgarding the R.C. church and the gospel of repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, ; I have to say Gail, you are looking at the church's preaching and teaching of the WOrd through rose colored glasses, as is Paul.

I have been to hundreds of masses, and catechism classes,and have NEVER heard the gospel given clearly ! No, not even one time. And, by the way, either have any of the hundreds of Roman Catholics that I have witnessed to. No, they say, "my priest says that I am already born again".

Receiving Christ as personal savior is not something that the church can impart. It is Spiritual, and comes from God. To try and put that power into the church's hands is the epidemy of the verse, "having a form of godliness, and denying the power thereof". WHich is what the R.C. church does. It is a humanistic system, designed by the flesh, to satisfy the flesh concerning God. Its hand is clearly shown by the deification of Mary.

When ever the truth (thy WORD is TRUTH) is changed into a lie, there is a "creature" made to be worshipped and served rather than the CREATOR, who is blessed for ever, Amen. And this is the case with Marian worship!

Athanasius again speaks the truth on this subject as well:

"Not even his birth from a virgin, therefore, changed Him in any way, nor was He defiled by being in the body. Rather, He sanctified the body by being in it."

Sanctify: "to make holy, purify" Meaning that the "body" was in NEED of being "sanctified".

"For His being in everything does not mean that He shares the nature of everything. Only that He gives all things their being and sustains them in it.

Just as the Sun is not defiled by the contact of its rays with earthly objects, but rather enlightens and purifies them, so He who made the Sun is not defiled by being made known in a body, but rather the body is "cleansed and quickened by His indwelling".

quickened: "made alive spiritually" Again, this meaning that the body was in NEED of being cleansed (of sin) and made alive spiritually.

Ok Gail, it's time to twist and spin this one too!

It is clear that Athanasius did not believe that Mary was totally with out sin, or why would he say that Jesus' indwelling of Mary's body caused it to be "sanctified" and "cleansed" and "quickened" by His indwelling?

Any mention by Athanasius of Mary's being "spotless, stainless" is referring to her lack of contact sexually; "without the agency of human father--a pure body, untainted by intercourse with man". Being sexually "stainless" and "spotless".

NO, this whole "sinless" fable has been spun over hundreds of years, much like a story is told at one end of the room at a party, and by the time it reached the last person, the story has changed 100% from its original.

The church has "created" its own "god" of "man's devices". As such, it has shown its lack of "love of the truth"; the WORD is the TRUTH !

Gail, you are putting your faith in the "church" and its authority, which you hang on the verse "on this Rock" pertaining to Peter. In fact, the "on this Rock" is Jesus CHrist, and He was referring to Peter's confession of "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" being the Rock on which He will build His church.

The whole and complete subject of that portion of scripture (Matt 16:13-20) is the fact that Peter made a confession of faith in Jesus Christ being the Christ and SOn of the LIving God! He then charged the disciples "that they should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ".

In fact, Jesus calls Peter "satan" and "an offense" to Him just 2 verses later !

Once you understand this concept, of "confession and faith in the person of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God", being the ROCK on which He built His church, then your understanding can be opened; and not until ! That goes for Paul as well.

There is a "catholic" (universal) church. It is comprised of ALL born again children of God,. ANYONE that "believes with all their heart" that Jesus Christ is "the Christ! the Son of the Living God" is "in Christ", and He will raise them up on the last day.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY"

Just as Jesus said to Peter, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee ("it" being the TRUTH), but my Father which is in heaven", so it is with ALL BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS!

The Holy Spirit must draw a man to Christ, (II Tim 2:25-26) "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the TRUTH (thy WORD is TRUTH); And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will"

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY mediator between men and God),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

Jay, you obviously DID NOT read the entire Athanasius quote yet again. Read on, friend. Athanasius was FULLY devoted to the Church, Jay. He was not a Protestant heretic. He also called Mary the "Mother of God."

You know what, Jay, I have heard countless Protestant altar calls -- HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS. Not once did I ever hear the preacher describe the "discipleship commandments" given by Christ! Not once! You hear "Give your heart to Jesus," "receive Jesus as your Savior and BROTHER YOU ARE SAVED," but never are you told that it will cost you EVERYTHING to be a true disciple. That you must persevere to the end! NEVER! That wholly deceptive? These people that go to the altar are just "receiving a free ticket to heaven."

Where in your rule of faith, scripture only, does it say to "receive Jesus as your PERSONAL savior?"

Of course, if you ask a Catholic "Have you received Jesus as your personal savior," they are going to look at you askance. It's not in the Bible, Jay! You are presenting an abbreviated form of the gospel in a small nutshell, according to your particular views, and then holding that up as the rule of faith -- YOUR PUNY INTERPRETATION BASED ON THE SCRIPTURES YOU SELECT -- and ignoring Christ's DEMANDS FOR DISCIPLESHIP!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 17, 2003.

Gail,

"For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, SHALL BE SAVED"

"If thou wilt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

You see Gail, the WORD teaches that in order to "be saved", one must "call upon the Lord". If you are calling upon the Lord to "be saved", then you must believe in your heart that you are LOST and "need to be saved". This comes from the Holy Spirit.

What I believe is in the Bible. At least I can say that. What you believe comes from the telling and embellishing of fables over the years. Jesus said, "search the scriptures, for in them ye think that ye have eternal life, and they are they which tell of me" The scriptures Gail, not the writings (paraphrases) of men, but the actual WORD of GOD> SOmething that your "religion" didn't even allow the people to read on their own. You are still insisting that the "born again" Spirit filled Christian cannot even understand the Word of God, unless it is inturpreted for him/her. Again, "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof".

Have you received Jesus as your personal Savior is not in the bible Gail?

How about, John 1:12 "But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 10:43 "To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name, whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins."

Luke 14:23 "And the Lord said unto the servant, go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house might be filled"

We are to "compel" them to Repent! and "call upon the name of the Lord", that they will "receive" the Holy Spirit; and SHALL BE SAVED"

As far as Athanasius being devoted, he was devoted to Christ , and Christ's command is to "love the brethren" and body of believers (universal0 known as the "church". What you call the "church" is a man-made religious system that has , "transgressed the commandments of God by its traditions" and at this point in time, "in vain do they worship me, making for doctrines the commandments of men".

Gail, your true faith is in the WORDS OF MEN (and the doctrines of the "church") , and not in the scriptures. If it were, you would do as Athanasius said, and " prove its truth by the study of the scriptures". Sadly, you cannot prove the church's teachings and paraphrases with the scriptures, because many of their doctrines are antichrist and anti-bible, and ANTI-GOD's COMMANDMENTS !

* Call no man your father....

* Make no graven images unto yourselves...

* There is ONE MEDIATOR

* Do not worship the creature rather than the CREATOR.

etc. etc. etc.

Now concerning the sanctification of the believer, this comes through the word. Jesus said, "sanctify them through thy truth; thy WORD is TRUTH". Again, SOLA SCRIPTURA is defined in the WORD.

ALso, the sanctificaion of the believer is done by God, in HIS will,

(Phl 1:6) "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus CHrist."

Yous see? God knows who are His, and He brings about holiness in HIS OWN.

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY MEDIATOR between men and GOD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 17, 2003.

Jay sees a hand of friendship extended and once more tries biting at it.

Let's be truly grateful for Jay's participation here, Gail, et al;--

I have the notion Jay Gentile is a ''minister'' settled somewhere in Texas or Arkansas, with a group of followers of country origin (nothing wrong with it), all of whom he strides in front of, with a bold & ringing Bible chant, full of what *he thinks* is the Spirit!!!

I suspect (correct me if Um wrong, Preacher) he took to the Internet with dreams of moving the hearts of hundreds of thousands of idolaters and fornicaters and Papists with the ''gospel truth''.

He is now surprised, entangled in a Catholic forum where nothing he says or does makes headway. Poor Jay; the Word of God is too slow for him! He can't make it shift gears when he asks it. How can the fool Catholics bug him this way??? He's a MINISTER! With a KJV Bible!

Let's ask ourselves; why did the Holy Spirit lead him here? To pull the wool over his eyes? Why can't he shake the confidence, the faith of a few Catholics???

Answer,
Because nothing can kill the Catholic faith, JG. Nero couldn't faze it. Babylon fell and couldn't hurt it. All the Catholic faithful went to the arena and played with lions on that sand, and never lost their faith! --Many heretics have come and gone. All they had for their troubles was a myriad confused, lost sects. Protestant freelancers, with a botched Bible, and without holy orders. --All self-ordained, without the blessings of the Holy Spirit. With NO sacramental life!

But, --Jay had never realised that! Till now. He sees the good fruits of the Holy Gospel, as Christ raises it. Catholic faithful, with no idea what Jay expects from them. -- But the Holy Spirit???

He brought Jay G. into our site to bring him to his knees; and to explain his errors to him, and to demand he come out of his darkness. God can bring a horse to water, and trust me; God can make him drink. Jay is a stubborn one. But God the Holy Spirit has him looking into the clear water now. Let us PRAY, friends. For the love of this poor soul; move the heavens with our petition. God have mercy on Jay Gentile, and may Our Blessed Mother plead for his soul today! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 17, 2003.

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but is is the one who has ENDURED to the end who will be saved." ACTION REQUIRED.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, BE ALL THE MORE DILIGENT to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you PRACTICE THESE THINGS, you will never stumble for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. ACTION REQUIRED!

WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling! ACTION REQUIRED.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. ACTION REQUIRED.

Matthew 25:31-36 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left, Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me. I was in prison and you came to Me . . . . . ACTION REQUIRED!

41-46 Then He will also say to those on HIs left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, saying, "lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or nakes, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not DO it to one of the least of these, you did not DO it to Me." ACTION REQUIRED.

The only difference between the sheep and the goats IS WHAT THEY DID AND DID NOT DO!

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven. "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" ACTION REQUIRED.

Gee whiz, these guys were calling Him Lord. They were even CASTING OUT DEVILS, PROPHESYING. Apparently, they THOUGHT they knew Him, but Jesus says they were practicers of lawlessness? Perhaps they didn't say the right incantation at the altar!

Revelations 3:14-16 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 'I know your DEEDS, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." HEY, He's talking to the Church here, Jay!

ONCE AGAIN, JUDGMENT ACCORDING TO WORKS, NOT SOME MAGICAL PRAYER SAID DURING AN EMOTIONAL OUTBURST AT THE ALTAR! But as James say, "Ye ARE NOT saved by faith alone."

You are guilty of taking only parts of scripture like tiny pieces of small tile and designing a mosaic in your own image!

Gail

P.S. I left the Word of Faith Church I was in when, during children's church, they presented a gospel message that went something like this: "Kids, you wanna kick the devil's butt, don't you?" Yeah, yelled the kids. "Kids, you wanna be able to give the devil a black eye, right kids?" Yeah. "Kids, you wanna be able to stay healthy, and kick the devil's butt when he throw's sickness at you, right kids?" Yeah, they cried. "Kids, you wanna be able to throw off poverity when the devil throw it at ya, right?" YEAH! "Let's see those hands, kids." 47 pairs of hands went up, and was added to the "saved tally." Ahhhh, BUT HEY, THEY CAN PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURE!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 17, 2003.

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but is is the one who has ENDURED to the end who will be saved." ACTION REQUIRED.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, BE ALL THE MORE DILIGENT to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you PRACTICE THESE THINGS, you will never stumble for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. ACTION REQUIRED!

WORK OUT your salvation with fear and trembling! ACTION REQUIRED.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. ACTION REQUIRED.

Matthew 25:31-36 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left, Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me. I was in prison and you came to Me . . . . . ACTION REQUIRED!

41-46 Then He will also say to those on HIs left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, saying, "lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or nakes, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not DO it to one of the least of these, you did not DO it to Me." ACTION REQUIRED.

The only difference between the sheep and the goats IS WHAT THEY DID AND DID NOT DO!

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven. "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" ACTION REQUIRED.

Gee whiz, these guys were calling Him Lord. They were even CASTING OUT DEVILS, PROPHESYING. Apparently, they THOUGHT they knew Him, but Jesus says they were practicers of lawlessness? Perhaps they didn't say the right incantation at the altar!

Revelations 3:14-16 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 'I know your DEEDS, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." HEY, He's talking to the Church here, Jay!

ONCE AGAIN, JUDGMENT ACCORDING TO WORKS, NOT SOME MAGICAL PRAYER SAID DURING AN EMOTIONAL OUTBURST AT THE ALTAR! But as James say, "Ye ARE NOT saved by faith alone."

You are guilty of taking only parts of scripture like tiny pieces of small tile and designing a mosaic in your own image!

Gail

P.S. I left the Word of Faith Church I was in when, during children's church, they presented a gospel message that went something like this: "Kids, you wanna kick the devil's butt, don't you?" Yeah, yelled the kids. "Kids, you wanna be able to give the devil a black eye, right kids?" Yeah. "Kids, you wanna be able to stay healthy, and kick the devil's butt when he throw's sickness at you, right kids?" Yeah, they cried. "Kids, you wanna be able to throw off poverity when the devil throw it at ya, right?" YEAH! "Let's see those hands, kids." 47 pairs of hands went up, and was added to the "saved tally." Ahhhh, BUT HEY, THEY CAN PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURE!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 17, 2003.

Gail,

The key to understanding God's will is being "born again". This is the point at which we [come to KNOW Him, and He reveals Himself to us] and we are baptized/sealed into the Holy Spirit and become the Sons of GOD.

The term, "those that endure to the end, shall be saved", is stating a fact, not a challenge. Those that endure to the end will be the true "born again" believers. "He who has begun a good work in you will continue to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" God saves us by His grace (given directly to us from the Holy Father "GOD", not through Mary or any other human being) and sanctifies us by that same grace, and brings us to Him according to His will through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why "ye shall know them by their fruit".

You said: "The only difference between the sheep and the goats is what they do". Yes, this is true according to the flesh, outwardly, but God "looketh upon the heart". And, in essence, the only "fruit" that we can see is the outward workings of a person, so we must look upon the "fruit" of a person to know if that person is "saved" or not. But the difference between the sheep and the goats is whether or not their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life".

When does this happen? When a person personnally humbles themselves, and hears the truth and believes it. "For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Whosoever !

The thief on the cross did not get baptized, or do any works of righteousness, yet he was saved! But those of us who are saved, and continue on this earth are slowly being formed into the image of God's only SOn Jesus Christ, throught the WORD. And we are "predestined" to perform certain works for God, and to produce fruit.

James 2:18 " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS"

In essence, this is saying that the TRUE child of God will not perform works to SHOW that he has faith, but it will be a natural bi- product of "the faith" that he has.

A good tree brings forth good fruit NATURALLY. It does not strive! And if we are in the vine, we WILL produce good fruit.

Every believer, when he/she initially gets saved, produces FRUIT !

Then, as John 15:1 says, "Every branch in me that beareht not fruit he taketh away:" (meaning this is seed that fell on poor soil, and did not take root)

" and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit" (these are that seed that fell on good soil and brought forth fruit) Now, there may be times in a person's life that they do not bear fruit, but this is a dormant period , and a time of testing. When the Lord allows Satan to "sift" us. This sifting process happended to me, so I can witness to it.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are buned" This is talking about the believer that does not abide in Christ. His witness is nullified before men. And they cast him into the fire. This child of God (be cause he did bear fruit initially) has fallen into sin, and has not abided in the "Vine", he withers "spiritually", and is cast away by men. He cannot bear fruit, because of his back slidden condition. He needs to REPENT, and return to the Father, who will come out side to greet him while he is still far off, and will kill the fatted calf, and put a robe on his back and a ring on his finger, and welcome him back.

Now, as the conscience gets darkened by sin, and we grieve the Holy Spirit, we loose our joy and all the rest of the "fruits of the Spirit" because we are not abiding in the Vine. This is why the Bible says to (II Peter 1:10)"make your calling and election sure". So that an "entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom". If a person remains in a backslidden condition, they will enter in with their head held in shame, and a darkened conscience towards God.

This is why the Bible says, "the same shall be saved, yet as by fire". Meaning, as one escaping through the flames, or as we say today, "by the skin of their teeth".

Gail, we are not to strive to be accepted by God. We are already accepted throug the wonderful act of sacrifice that Jesus made for us. All we have to do is "RECEIVE" it according to God's will.

"God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE"

"if righteousness cometh by the LAW (works of righteousness), then Christ is dead in vain"

The key is the love of the WORD. Jesus is the WORD, come in the FLESH! "If you love me, keep my commandments". He is saying that because He first loved us. He loves us, and wants us to "abide in Him". He knows that this abiding can only be achieved through the TRUTH. "Sanctify them through the truth, Thy WORD is TRUTH".

The true "born again" Christian WILL abide and endure to the end. If he does not, then he was never saved to begin with. And Jesus will righteously say, "I NEVER knew you".

Once you are KNOWN by Him, and are "sealed" with that Holy Spirit of promise, "which is the earnest (deposit) of our inheritance", He could not possibly say, " I "never" knew you".

Does this give us a free pass to sin? God forbid ! The true BORN AGAIN child of God would grieve the Spirit, and be miserable. He/she would be under conviction and have a darkened conscience towards God.

THen, he/she would go back into the world, and try to get relief from the conviction and darkened conscience. This "frustratiion" would result in the "turning back" of the believer, and repentance, and return as a "prodigal son".

How do I know this? Because he happened to me.

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY Mediator!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 18, 2003.

Gail,

Also, when you say that the ONLY difference between the sheep and goats is what they "do", then you are not understanding the TRUTH.

So you are saying that our "works" decide whether or not we are saved?

"Tts 3:5 "Not by works of rightousness which WE have done, but according to His MERCY He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

He "saved us" is in PAST TENSE !. So is washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. It is talking about the "NEW BIRTH". Being BORN AGAIN!

Jesus didn't say, "except a man be born again" and then say, plus he/she must do this or that, in order to see the kingdom of God.

GOD changes us! and causes us to bear fruit ! It's ALL HIM, and NOT of oursleves.........." lest any man should boast".

Grace ! Mercy ! That's what saves us. And if we get saved, and then simply live for self, we SHALL suffer loss! in the KINGDOM !

I Cor 3:15 "If any man's works shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: bbut he himself shall be saved; yet(but) so as (in this manner)by (even as) fire."

If we abide in Him, we will bear much fruit. If we do not, we will suffer loss, but ultimately we are saved! by GRACE and MERCY !, not by works, lest any man should boast!

In Him (is Shalom!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 18, 2003.

Good Morning, Jay,

I understand the "once saved, always saved" position quite well, but I do not agree with it. I never have believed that even as a Protestant. Assemblies of God do not believe in the once-saved, always saved position, and neither to the Wesleyans, Church of the Nazarene, and of course Pentecostals.

You never said what church you are with?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 18, 2003.

If salvation has nothing to do with anything we do, and is something that happened only in the past, then obviously all people must be saved. However, the Bible plainly says that not all people are saved. Therefore the difference between those who are saved and those who are not saved must not be the result of anything Christ did or didn't do. That would mean that His act of salvation was incomplete. It must therefore be the result of what individual people do or don't do. Seems pretty straightforward. Salvation is a free gift, but a gift, once offered, must be actively accepted before it becomes a gift in any personal sense. Faith and works are the required means of accepting the free gift of salvation. Works don't save you, but you won't be saved without them. Faith doesn't save you, but you won't be saved without it.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 18, 2003.

That's right, Paul, we must cooperate with the grace offered to us; not only once at the altar, but repeatedly, every day -- that is TRUE discipleship, making our salvation sure, and sanctification REAL!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 18, 2003.

wow Paul,

How in the world do you get the statement, "then obviously all people must be saved" ! ??

from my posts ?

Then you said, "it must be the result of what individual people do or don't do." Again, a bizzare statement, since we know that the bible says, "NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to HIS MERCY He saved us".

Then you said, "seems pretty straight forward". Well, I hate to be a broken record, but, "there is a way which seems (pretty straight forward) right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death"

Paul, both "faith" and "works" go hand in hand "IF" a person is born again. If not, then the "works" will become a means to an end. Which is what the Roman Catholic faith is in a nutshell. It is a "man-made" system of works, that, according to the papacy, will result, if continued, in eternal life. Again, this is un-biblical !

Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". That is all that is required ! However, a person does not become "born again" by man's will, but only by the Holy Father's will (that is God by the way). But, since you do not "receive" what being born again means, then you will not understand how once saved always saved is biblical.

YOu said, "faith and works are the required means of accepting the free gift of salvation". WOuld you care to back that statement up with scripture? We are saved by GRACE, through FAITH. That's it !

IF we are truly "saved" (born again), we WILL bear fruit. Phil. 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure". If not, then even the "works" that we do, are in vain !

Gal 2:21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"

"Art thou a master of (Catholicism), and knowest not these things"?

In talking to you and the others on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that you all need to be BORN AGAIN ! I say this out of love and concern! Ye MUST be born again!

It is NOT be works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to HIS mercy! that we are saved. But this "salvation" only comes AFTER repentance ! This act of REPENTANCE is not of individual sins, but is a life changing surrender to God, and rejection of the WORLD , the FLESH, and the DEVIL.

How can a person TRULY cry out to God to be SAVED, unless he truly believes in his heart that he is lost, and dying, and perishing, and hopeless ???

Your last post is very telling. You said, "Salvation is a free gift, but a gift, once offered, must be actively accepted before it becomes a gift in any personal sense".

That is totally un-true, and un-biblical. The gift of salvation is a once in a life time, LIFE CHANGING, event ! Behold! old things pass away, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW !

Once a person RECEIVES Jesus Christ as SAVIOR and LORD, they RECEIVE the gift of SALVATION! And Jesus said, John 6:39) "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day."

I think the real problem here is, once again, that you don't understand (because you have not experienced it) being BORN AGAIN! True heart felt repentance and being willing to TURN and reject the world, the flesh, and sin, and begging God for relief from the frustration of sin. Crying out to God to PLEASE !!! PLEASE !! Lord, PLEASE forgive me and save me !!!!

Then, He answers, and imparts the Holy Spirit !

"God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL sould come to repentance"!

There is NONE righteous! NO, not one (Mary included !)

YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN Paul. You think you are rich, and in need of nothing! You think that simply by following the "works" of the Roman Catholic church, that you will somehow be "worthy" of eternal life. You even have a prayer to Mary to "pray for us at the hour of our death".

The born again child of God is at peace at the "hour of their death". WHy? Because they are saved!!! and they know it !

Hebr. 2:14-15 "that through death He (Jesus Christ!)might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

AND DELIVER THEM WHO THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH WERE ALL THEIR LIFETIME SUBJECT TO BONDAGE"

1 John 5:13 says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the SOn of GOD"

Jesus would not be much of a Savior, if we still had to "work" our way to heaven by our own righteousness.

No Paul and Gail, you need to be BORN AGAIN! THen you will "understand", for

"the natural (wo)man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, neither can they know them, for they are Spirituually discerned"

Do you KNOW Him ?? and are you KNOWN by HIM ?

If so, ye HAVE eternal life !

In Him (is shalom!),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 18, 2003.

It's not hard to see you're a religious man, JG.

Your ancestors were all born again in baptism, you know. Catholics, every one.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 18, 2003.

Paul,

ignore Jay, we went round and round in circles, and he'll only parse your posts to answer what he thinks his protestant propaganda pamplets can deal with by spouting the same four verses over and over again, regardless of how many times you show him his errors.

furthermore, he claims to be an EXPERT on the catholic church, more so than any catholic in the world, because he claims to know EXACTLY what we believe, even though no catholic seems to have the beliefs he ascribes to us.

big Paul, jay lives in a world of lies that he refuses to see out of. so much so that he tells us what is right is what we should not do. he pulls this cloud of darkness over his eyes and courts a master of lies who has him wrapped. i suggest not wasting your time.

little paul

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 18, 2003.

Feel better now "little Paul" ?

Now you can go back into your warm comfortable world. The world that tells you that you are "spiritually" "rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and bind, and naked:

I cousel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

L. Paul, come out of your comfort zone. The false comfort that you get when you do "good works" that you think are getting you to the point of "being worthy of Jesus Christ" as the Pope's prayers to Mary say.

Jesus wants you to buy and put on WHITE RAIMENT that was washed in Hiws blood!

"All OUR righteousness is as filthy rags!" "There is NONE righteous, no, not one"

Yes, I know exactly how the Catholic believes, because I went to Catholic school all my life, and went to Catholic church for many many years.

There is no peace there. The Romish church is still approaching the "mountain that cannot be touched".

"And EVERY priest stands daily, ministering and offering oftentimes (over and over and over) the SAME SACRIFICES, WHICH CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS:

But this man (Jesus Christ), after He had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth (from then on...........) expecting till His enemies be made His footstool."

For by ONE OFFERING (sacrifice) He hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified (made holy by the NEW BIRTH)."

"Marvel NOT that I said unto THEE, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN"

"Art thou a master of [Catholocism], and knowest not these things?"

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY mediator between men and God),

**St. jay

**(already made a king and royal priest in the riches of Jesus Christ) REV 1: 5-6

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 19, 2003.

Ahhh, Jay, your gospel has made you arrogant and prideful.

What is infuriating about your posts is that you continue to tell us what we believe (wrongfully) regardless of what we say.

THIS, is what we believe:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

This call to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for He alone can reveal and give Himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

The grace of Christ is the gratuitous GIFT that God makes to us of His own life, infused by the HOly Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification.

"Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself."

Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself ...

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining salvation. Since without faith it is impossible to please God and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith NO ONE HAS EVER ATTAINED justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life "but he who endures to the end.

See John 1:12-18; 17:3; Romans 8;14-17; 2 Peter 1:3-4, 1 Cor 2:7-9, John 4:14, 7:38-39, 2 Cor 5:17-18

Apparently, Jay, in all your years as a Catholic, and with all your schooling you never took it upon yourself to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 19, 2003.

Gail,

the paraphrases of the WOrd of God are fine. Truth is truth. But the Holy Sprit is not imparted by the act of baptism, and certaily not to an infant.

Biblical baptism comes after the New Birth.

I've read the "catechisms of the Catholic church", and they do not preach the TRUE gospel. Never is the term BORN AGAIN mentioned in it correct Spirit filled, POWER as being a requirement as Jesus has said. THey just saw it through "fleshly" eyes, and simply write it off as being another "thing" that the priest can make happen by spilling water on a baby's head.

FALSE GOSPEL !! END OF STORY !

"that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the SPIRIT is spirit."

"Marvel not that I say unto thee, YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN" Gail !

In Him,

St. jay

You seem to have the right answers, but when I look carefully, it is obvious that your faith is in the "church", and not the Lord!

Just read your own church's prayers, and you get a clear picture of the lack of peace and boldness to approach the throne of grace.

If a person is TRULY saved, and BORN AGAIN, they KNOW in their heart, by the SPirit giving witness to their spirit, that they have already RECEIVED the inheritance deposit, and are SEALED !

Why then would anyone need to be prayed for a the "hour of our death", still hoping that we are GOOD ENOUGH? We are made RIGHTEOUS in Jesus Christ at the MOMENT of our "conversion".

Eph 1:13

"In whom (Jesus Christ) ye also TRUSTED (past tense), after that ye heard the WORD of TRUTH, the GOSPEL of YOUR SALVATION: in whom also AFTER that ye BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that Holy SPirit of promise,

WHich is the EARNEST (deposit) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of HIS glory!"

It's all HIM Gail, not the "works" of following the rituals of the church! HIM ! He paid it all !

YOu either get it or you don't. If you don't , it's because you do not LOVE THE TRUTH! THye WORD IS TRUTH.

Hebr 10:14 "For by ONE OFFERING He hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified (made holy).

I know that you have all the right words, but, as Philip said to the eunuch in Acts 8:37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest."

Now "the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?"

Certainly not a priest, and most certainly not an infant that has not the ability to hear, understand, or believe the word of GOd.

No, your doctrine is wrong, and as such, this first wrong dominoe has caused all the rest to fall in error!

The bottom line is, the Roman Catholic church does not know what the term "born again" means. And as such, they have created a system whereby the priest (church) has the power, through various rituals, and catechism classes, to impart the Holy Spirit, simply by having the candidate repeat certain prayers, withing the ritual.

Then, they "falsly" announce, "abbra ca dabbra"!! you are a Christian.

Why? Have them been born again? Or has the church SAID they have been?

This state of being "un-regenerated" has cause all of the wrotten "fruit" to be produced by the church over the years.

Such as:

murdering and torture,

hatred of Jews, (God's people)

adultry and fornication

child abuse

homosexuality

Why? Because you are operating under a false security. Your security comes from man. The Holy Spirit is given by God, after TRUE repentance, and "calling upon the name of the LOrd" to be saved!

Gail, you (the Roman Cath. church) might have a "form of godliness", but they DEVINATELY don't know what the POWER OF GOD is all about!

"o not marvel when I tell you, Ye MUST be born again"

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 19, 2003.

Hi Jay, You said,

"the paraphrases of the Word of God are fine. Truth is truth. But the Holy Sprit is not imparted by the act of baptism, and certaily not to an infant."

The paraphrase I posted, that you claim are fine, come straight from the Catechism, Jay.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 19, 2003.

Jay says:

"Then, they "falsly" announce, "abbra ca dabbra"!! you are a Christian."

Funny you should say that. The term "Hocus Pocus" was used by satanists to mock the words of the Consecration Hoc Est Enim Corpus Meum. Think about the dance The Hokey Pokey, and the circle.

Be careful what terms you use; they might actually be meant to mock the Creator and His reality.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 19, 2003.

Bubba,
Every faithful Catholic loves God. Love makes me absolutely certain God sent me the Truth; not from books, but by His holy apostles. Our Church loves her Holy Bridegroom; and He purifies her in every age. That's why no matter if scandals come; and among our faithful some weed is to be found, like the sinners you denounce here; we have no fear. Our Church is His house, Jay. The Holy Tabernacle where Jesus reigns.

Your own so-called faith is inhabited by devils like Rev. Jim Jones. David Koreshes, Jim & Tammy Baykker; the whole range of false prophets, gay and lesbian ''ministers'', and swindlers of all kinds.

But a Catholic has no need to denounce you & them. We contemplate of our own sin, and offer up penance to God, through Jesus Christ. We offer him our adoration. The Catholic Church gives LOVE; not envy and hatred and spite, as your ''faith'' practices. It is written, how others are to recognise the True Church for the ages: ''See how they love one another.''

Where, you on the contrary, vent nothing but hate and accusations. That's why I see you for the servant of Beelzebub: He is the Accuser. Satan stands between the faithful and God Almighty, and cries: ''They are hateful and filthy.'' (Sounds like you?) ''--They are evil and blaspheme!'' (Again, he's your model), ''Look, they worship idols! They don't deserve to live eternally; you must damn them!'' (Everything you say, along with his seal of approval.)

But Our Father in heaven realises the truth is only served by His divine Son. He doesn't care what the devil and his stooges (Bubba are U a stooge of Beelzebub?) accuse me of. --He believes the Founder of the Holy Catholic Church, JESUS CHRIST.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 19, 2003.

Gail,

My point exactly! Your catechisms are nothing more than a paraphrase of the WORD. So then, why not "preach the word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort" all from Sola Scriptura which is the TRUTH ?!!

Emeralds, Also, my point exactly !

It is superstition and "hocus-pocus". I am not afraid of Satan, because he has been defeated in me by being Born Again! Don't try to effect me with your superstitious ways!

Superstition is a "lust of the flesh", and it is found in many aspects of the Roman Catholic "church", especially in Europe, where many of the doctrines of demons originated!

In Christ Jesus (the ONLY mediator between men and GOD),

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), June 19, 2003.

You aren't in Christ, Bubba. You are the lost sheep, gone out of His fold, the Catholic Church.

The Church is the enemy of superstition. You are superstious yourself, believing the Bible is your ''amulet'' against all harm. You give the Bible magical powers, and that's why the Word of God never rests on your interpretations. Jesus prophesied the coming of false prophets like you, JG. By their fruits we always know them.

Your fruits:

Self-ordained preachers of error.
Disintegrating sects by the thousands.
Swindles of the poor and ignorant.
Calumnies against holy people.
Suicides by the hundreds.
Ku Klucks Kl-ans; slave owners.
Racial injustice.
Serial murder-- (Charley Manson preached from the scriptures.)
Abortion on demand. In the millions!
Rampant immorality and vice.

And you claim to have received total security by insisting you are ''saved''. Pharisees weren't as hypocritical as men like you, who claim to be ''bor-n again''--

God forgive the itinerant preacher!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 19, 2003.

I have just finished reading an article by Robert Sungenis in the current Remnant. It is an eye opener.

No more evangelizing Jews,Moslems, Budhists. All are “saved”. This is from the pope on down. As Sungenis says, quoting St. Paul, ‘If I or an angel from Heaven, preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed”.

Does that apply to the pope and the bishops? It applies even to angels. So.

-- Carlos DeAngelo (carlos@appleandeve.com), June 19, 2003.

Dear Carlo:
Is The Remnant where you were baptised? Is this magazine the Holy Spirit? Do we care?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 19, 2003.

Who is she that cometh forth as the morning star, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 30, 2003.

Jay,

We don't get out our hoe until weeds pop up in the Garden. What would the point be? When we DO, that doesn't mean that the weed was a good thing!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 30, 2003.

Emerald:

Jesus is the "bright and morning star". But since your man-made religion insists on replacing him with a false "queen of heaven" theology, you will have to answer your delusionary question yourself, no doubt based upon "the vanity of your own mind" and not the more sure WORD of TRUTH.

What is truth?

"Thy WORD is TRUTH", said Jesus to the Holy Father (that's God by the way, in case your false man-made religion again has you convinced that it is a man, in the Vatican).

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

Oh, and Frank:

According to the news, those that "Lord it over you" are presently too busy getting rid of the choking web of weeds (homosexuality, child mollesters, adulterers, murderers, etc.) in your own gardens.

"Ye shall know the tree by its fruit, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?" ..............obviously not!

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

Ohhh, Jay's back.

I was reading the Word and ran across these scriptures, and Behold, I couldn't help but think of you. (Honestly, though, they help me too!)

The beginning of strife is like letting out water, so abandon the quarrel before it breaks out. Proverbs 17:14

Keeping away from strife is an honor for a man, but any fool will quarrel. Proverbs 20:3

A fools lips bring strife, and his mouth calls for blows. Proverbs 186

Like charcoal to hot embers and wood to fire, so is a contentious man to kindle strife. Proverbs 26:21

Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 2 Tim 2:14

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels, and the Lord's bond-servant must NOT be quarrelsome, but be kind to all . . . 2 Tim 2:23-24

Knowledge PUFFS UP, but LOVE edifies.

May the living Word of God manifest Himself in our hearts, and cure our imperfections. May we live out His love in every word we speak and every action we take.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 01, 2003.

Jay,

I'm 100% on your side that the weeds *within* the church need to go, and go now! However, that's no excuse to leave the weeds without to grow until they choke the world.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 01, 2003.

Gail, you have discovered that "thy WORD is TRUTH" I see.

Yes, you will find ALL of the TRUTH in the Holy BIBLE. Now, if you continue to read, and believe it, you will soon begin to question many many things about the Romish religion.

But, will you act upon a "love of the WORD" ? or will you opt to believe "man's words, rather than God's" ???

That is the big question. Will you "transgress the commandments of God with your traditions" ? or will you choose to "blieve a lie" ?

"in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

Frank,

the "weeds" that are in the world will be bundled and cast into the fire on the day of judgement.

Until then, judgement begins in the house of God. However, if the "weeds" in the house of God are being seeded by false doctrines, then the doctrines themselves must go.

If that is not possible, then you are in the wrong church!

I can tell you from the scriptures that the latter is the case.

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

No, you can't say ANY doctrines are incorrect Jay, you don't have the *authority* to do so. Only the church does. So talk all you want, quote all you want, in the end you are still wrong.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 01, 2003.

One more thing Jay,

I'm sure the Devil can quote ALL scripture perfectly, and even knows *exactly* what God meant by it. Just being able to quote from the Bible or do what YOU think is right is therefore meaningless, as the Devil does the same. Only following what the correct interpretation is is worthwhile, and the only place to FIND the correct interpretation is the church.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 01, 2003.

Jay,

I am telling you from the bottom of my heart -- Scripture DOES teach that Christ instituted an authoritarian church. That church did NOT disappear but grew organically, as is PROVEN by history. That is why scripture says the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth -- and NOT scripture. There is NO SUCH THING AS SOLA SCRIPTURA. It is an invention of the Reformers. Its a ruse! Christ DID NOT leave us to our own devices. The traditions you despise so much are the jewels of our faith given to us by the Lord to adorn His bride, and these traditions were handed down from generation to generation from our forefathers. The commentary, if you will, on scripture by our forefathers is infinitely valuable to us NOW in this age -- especially now, in lieu of the heretical times in which we live.

NOW, I know that there have been times there have been folks within the Church that have been unbalanced, some have sinned -- severely. But the Lord always is faithful and brings His Church back on track. Sometimes it is painful, as the discipline of the Lord always is, but it always produces the peaceful fruit of purity and peace.

Right now the church is being purged of a very very small percentage of sinful priests who have besmirched the fair name of our Lord (Lord help those wrongfully accused). You know as well as I do that the statistics on pastoral abuses in Protestantism is very very great; both in heresy as well as sexual abuse. Yet because of the structure of Protestantism, the discipline is scant, at best.

I am not going to argue scripture with you, Jay, as it is pointless and a complete waste of time. Your intent here is obvious; you desire to pull Catholics away into the confusing chaotic world of Protestantism. I know that it is confusing and chaotic because I was there for 20 years. Division and mayhem, competition and strife, and why? Because those within Protestantism feel as you do, that they have the corner on the truth, everyone else is wrong, and "if the pastor doesn't see the light, why, we'll just go start our own church." It happens over and over and over again. "Some say, I am of Apollos, I am of Paul . . . What, has Christ been divided?" Yes, He has -- in Protestantism.

So Jay, that's your choice, the Church Christ instituted and was born at Pentecost, or Protestantism! If your conscience directs you to Protestantism then so be it. I will respect your right to choose (even wrongly) but you MUST show the same respect to us. We have very very good logical, scriptural reasons for loving and remaining in the Church Christ formed and gave to us.

Protestantism grieves me to the core of my being. I have listened to the pastors who teach emphatically that their doctrine is absolutely correct, then the next preacher comes on with the same conviction that HE is right, yet they contradict each other squarely. It is a HUGE scandal within Protestantism that HAS NO REMEDY, Jay. There is only scandal, arguments and more divisions.

The Lord Jesus must weep over the pride of ministers, too lofty and puffed up to admit that they could be wrong! And Jay, you could be wrong too; afterall you only have a "self" assurance based on "your" interpretation of scripture.

With respect,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 01, 2003.

Jay,

What kind of spiritual poison are you consuming, that you conjur up such grotesque parodies of Catholicism, and naively believe that they are factual? I bet a lot of it comes from Chick Publications. That material has a unique stench that real Christians can detect a mile away. Mary, a human being, REPLACING Jesus Christ, GOD, second person of the Most Holy Trinity, Our Blessed Lord and Savior? That idea is so utterly absurd that it would be laughable if it were not for the fact that poor souls like yourself believe it.

A: You state: "Thy WORD is TRUTH", said Jesus to the Holy Father" Indeed He did, Jay. Note that He did NOT say "every private interpretation of thy Word made by every manmade denomination is truth. That is the great travesty of Protestantism. They take thw Word of God which is truth, twist and pervert it to fit with their particular denomination beliefs, then regurgitate it under the guise of truth. Or rather, under the guise of thousands of conflicting versions of what was once truth. Does this sound like a work of the Holy Spirit?? "Ye shall know the tree by its fruit, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?" ... obviously not! Fragmentation of Christianity into thousands of competing and contradictory sects is rotten fruit - directly opposed to the stated will of Christ for His Church - "Father, that they may be ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE".

"Now, if you continue to read, and believe it, you will soon begin to question many many things about the Romish religion"

A: Now there's a curious notion ... If Catholics read a book which was written by Catholic leaders, compiled by Catholic Bishops for use by Catholics, approved by a Catholic Pope, and which forms the basis for Catholic worship, they will begin to question Catholicism. Yeah Right! Note that the Holy Catholic Church has used the scriptures ever since they were written, and has used the Bible ever since it was compiled at the end of the 4th century, and still has not fragmented into denominations. Your manmade tradition, having "borrowed" the Catholic scriptures, and having found it impossible to accurately interpret them, continues to fall to pieces even as I write, and the driving force behind that self-destruction is the Word of God, or rather, futile human attempts to define what it means. Jay, will you act upon a "love of the WORD" - the REAL Word? or will you opt to believe "man's words, rather than God's"???

"if the "weeds" in the house of God are being seeded by false doctrines, then the doctrines themselves must go. If that is not possible, then you are in the wrong church! I can tell you from the scriptures that the latter is the case"

A: Jay, if only you could appreciate how silly this sounds to one who lives in the rich fullness of God's own Church, free from the toxic theories of Protestantism which sow discord and division wherever they touch. "I can tell you from scripture that your beliefs are wrong". This is the same sad line that each denomination directs at every other denomination. You can use scripture to demonstrate ANYTHING you want to demonstrate, as long as you are free to twist and deform it to your own ends. Satan Himself was into personal interpretation of scripture, if you recall, and used it as a source of temptation, in an attempt to turn Christ Himself away from the truth. No great surprise then that he also uses it to draw mere men away from the truth of His Church, and he must rejoice in the success rate of his efforts. Every new split in Christianity, every new conflict between Christians, every turning away from the unity Jesus desired for his followers, is another success for the prince of darkness.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 01, 2003.

Well Jay,

You don't seem to want to learn about Catholicism, and I don't really want to hear more of your self-made church criticising Christ's church, so I'll be signing off the "discussion". Good luck to you!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 01, 2003.

Little Bubba serves Beelzebub, with this wicked statement:

''Oh, and Frank:
According to the news, those that "Lord it over you" are presently too busy getting rid of the choking web of weeds (homosexuality, child mollesters, adulterers, murderers, etc.) in your own gardens.
"Ye shall know the tree by its fruit, can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?" ..............obviously not!
St. jay (aka Bubba.)

At least we haven't yet had a Rev. Jim Jones poisoning his whole flock (almost a thousand Bible reading ''Christians'') with evil Kool-Ayd, Bubba. Maybe a number of perverts. Maybe some evil priests, and even myself, a sinner.

The fruits are not pulled up at all yet, St. Bubba. Beelzebud hasn't got these souls yet. We all sin; but not to end up rotten fruits in the Catholic Church. We all may yet repent. Repentence, sorrow for our sins, grace from God; and the examples of our holy saints & martyrs; --all that can bring sinners to salvation.

But only in Christ's Holy Church, which you blaspheme. You sin and never repent. Why are you so happy in your sin? You're going to feed the fire one day soon. Because you didn't repent.

Ciao, Bubba!!! St. Jay of Beelzebub; Lord of the Flies, father of lies.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 01, 2003.

-i

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 01, 2003.

Eugene, you're about as sharp as a bowling ball.

But, hey, don't pull your head out of the sand on my accout, keep your head down, and above all.........don't read the scriptures and thing for yourself. The "TRUTH" is liable to set you free. And that could be deadly for someone that likes to be told what to do and what to believe. lol !!!!!

St. jay

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

Would that be Baptist truth? AOG truth? Lutheran truth? Methodist truth? Anglican truth? Congregational truth? Presbyterian truth? They are all different you know. There are just so many manmade "truths" to choose from. I think I'm probably safer sticking with the only truth that existed until a few hundred years ago. The truth supported by the pillar and foundation of truth. The truth that can't collapse and fragment. The truth Jesus guaranteed to His own Church and no-one else.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 01, 2003.

Jay are you a 'protestant'?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

David?

Your kidding. You have to ask if Jay is protestant? Are you really that confused?

Oh, oops. I did it too. David are you confused?

... . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 01, 2003.

I haven't read through his posts. Emerald's a Catholic and argues with Eugene, I just thought Jay could be like Emerald.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 01, 2003.

Bubba came here to flame us, only his flame blows out every time he tries to light it. By sola scrap tura.

He ''things for himself'' and so he's self-ordained to preach to us. I know I shouldn't poke fun at him. I do it to bring some fun into his dull life. Laugh, won't you Bubba? Your face won't break into forty pieces, we promise you. You ARE a self-ordained minister, aren't you Bubba???

Where in the Bible does it say you can ordain yourself? Where is your authority to give us a private interpretation of scriptures? In a new book of Beelzebub? Are you an apostle for the church of Beelzebub? Tough job, says JG. Somebody's got to do it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 01, 2003.

Eugene: I have already been ordained by the High Priest, Jesus Christ!

1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a CHOSEN GENERATION, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."

1 Peter 4:11 "If ANY man speak, let him speak as the oracles (the words or utterances of God); if ANY man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever, Amen."

also speaking to the believer, Peter says:

1 Peter 2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, asseptable to God by Jesus Christ."

Our position in Christ is that of Holy Priest. THis is to ALL believers, and the spiritual sacrifce is that of our own lives and bodies.

Rom 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptible unto God, which is your reasonable service."

St. jay (but you can call me bubba if your flesh insists)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003.

The priesthood of all believers has been Catholic teaching since the time of the Apostles. So has the separate fact of the ordained, ministerial priesthood. The Apostles were not simply rank and file Christians who happened to get involved in parish ministry. They were men divinely chosen and set apart, specially infused with the Holy Spirit, specially gifted in a spiritual sense, and specially ordained by God Himself to direct, teach, minister to, and serve the priesthood of all believers. That was the structure of the Church Christ founded, and today it remains the structure of the Church Christ founded. Manmade churches have no limits to what they may do or what they may believe or what they may refuse to do and believe. But the Holy Catholic Church is bound to maintain everything that Jesus personally endowed it with when He founded it, including the sacramentally ordained priesthood.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 02, 2003.

When Bubba speaks of a royal priesthood, a people set apart, he unwittingly speaks of Catholics. They are priests in union with Christ their High Priest when the Sacrament of the Eucharist (the clean oblation of Malachi 1:11) is offered up to our Almighty Father. ''For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation;'' says the Lord.

God here speaks of the sacrifice of His New Covenant, Calvary brought to the holy altars of the Church; at every moment of every day, the world over. A factual description of Holy Mass!

Good for you, Jay! You named us well!

Of course, we must be devout & humble in our priesthood. Not full of pride like you and the Lord of the flies.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.

yeah Paul,

It looks like it all right! How about homosexuality, child mollestation, adultery, and the like (they even do a hit and run and kill a guy and don't admit it) ?

I guess you've been pickin em pretty well eh?

Also, the fact that they've attempted to cover it all up is a Godly principle too eh ?

"ye shall know them by their fruits" (no pun intended)

You're living in a dream world man! wake up, and smell the "dead men's bones" coming from the whited sepulcres!

Oh and Eugene, do you even know what the oblation was ?

Hebr 10:14 "For by ONE OFFERING he hath PERFECTED (made perfect) FOR EVER them that are sanctified"

St. jay (of the royal priesthoos of Christ)

-- Jay Gentile (jaygen1@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003.

Dear Jay,

8.3% of the priests hand-picked by Jesus turned out to be traitors. And ALL of them were sinners. You are troubled by the fact that Christ's Church isn't able to pick perfect priests any better than He Himself could?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 02, 2003.

Bubba has the nerve.
Only CATHOLICS are priests in union with Christ their High Priest when the Sacrament of the Eucharist (the clean oblation of Malachi 1:11) is offered up to our Almighty Father.

''For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles; and in EVERY PLACE there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation;'' Your interpretation is bunk, which is not unusal.

You, Bubba are NOT every place you are not the Universal Church. (Greek ''Universal--Katholikos'') The Catholic Church, I repeat, celebrates the offering of a ''clean oblation'' Christ's own Body and Blood, on millions of altars from the rising until the setting of the sun, in every place on earth at one single minute.

Your sect is stuck in a backwater somewhere in Arkansas or Georgia very likely. Where the Klan is still burning crosses, and calls itself Christian! Fat lot of royal priesthood. Fat lot of St. Jaybird.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.

Paul,

For percentage fun, I also like to point out that 17% of the disciples showed up armed to the Last Supper, not that it is in any relevant to the thread.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 02, 2003.

Dear Eugene,

There are alot of others around here as stubborn as you and John. It does warm my heart to see you go at it with someone who refuses to listen, as staunchly, as you two do.

But I do think you two will be judged the harder since you are in the Church which has the truth and those like Jay, David, CS , Kevin are not.

But keep seeking the truth, Eugene, I know your heart is in the right place. And so is your soul. The stripes left on your heart in defense of truth, always bear sweet fruit down the road. Were them well good man.

Your dissenter Catholic "friend",

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

Karl,
Even as a left-handed compliment, I accept it. You're right. There's a responsibility placed on all of us proportionately. I never imagined I was special.

You may think us stubborn. I speak for myself, saying: Don't mistake my refusal sometimes to bend with mere stubbornness. I have about as much as most. But my posts as you see them aren't just layers of obstinacy. They are almost all my honest convictions. I part with my ''stubborn'' opinion when it's shown to be weak, or mistaken.

Posting here has always been a work of spiritual mercy as I intend it. A service God lets me offer, whenever He sees fit. I was uniquely prepared for this during the first part of my adult life. Now I'm under an obligation to use the experience God granted me. Maybe you understand, maybe not. I don't post here to gratify myself. I am trying to serve God and my neighbor with the small talent he gave to me. That's the main reason I am ''stubborn''. I'm almost a dentist pulling teeth. Some are easy, others very difficult.

Like any sinner, my level of Christian charity is up and down. I may often fail in giving good example. But never, I hope, in giving good counsel. For my sins, I have no excuse; I ask God's forgiveness. For taking this forum very seriously, He gives me His blessing every day. I hope nobody objects, except the enemies of the faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 04, 2003.