The correct term for this Sacrament is the Sacrament of Penance. Other words for the sacrament are in common usage, but that is the proper term. In this Sacrament we confess, repent, are absolved from our sins and thus achieve reconciliation. Some people prefer using the term Sacrament of Reconciliation, as they would suggest that it describes the sacrament better, and is less 'scary' for people. I can understand this point of view, as it does beautifully describe the sacrament. We go to be reconciled with God our loving Father. It's not a frightening sacrament, it's a beautiful sacrament which brings comfort, love and forgiveness to each and every one of us if we approach it in the correct manner.

When children are being catechised to receive the Sacrament of Penance we can tell them that when we go to 'reconciliation' it's like telling our mummy or daddy something wrong that we've done. Our mummy or daddy tell us that we shouldn't do that again. It's not showing our goodness. We say we will try our best not to do it, we really don't want to do that ever again, it makes us feel bad when we hurt God and our friends, and we want to show our goodness always. Then we are forgiven and when we are forgiven it feels like our mummy or daddy's arms wrapped lovingly around us.

That's what this beautiful sacrament is all about. It's about LOVE! God our Father does love us, he wants us to be as good as we can be. He knows we're human, that we make mistakes. He wants us to try our best. He makes allowances for our human-ness, knowing that we're here not as angels and saints, but as sinners trying our best to improve our lives daily. We fall down repeatedly. Every time we fall down, Jesus is there, with the help of the Holy Spirit, lifting us back up and urging us on. Every time we go to 'Confession' there is rejoicing in heaven, because one of the lost sheep has been found again. In recognising our sin we have come to ask for forgiveness, and like the prodigal son we are accepted back again...and again and again. For, like Jesus said, we are to forgive not once, not seven times, but seventy-seven times! No matter how many times we fall again from grace, if we go back to Him and are truly sorry and truly try again, he WILL forgive us. He WILL celebrate. He WILL wrap his arms around us... lovingly!!

If all of the Catholics in the world realised just what a precious gift is being offered to us in this beautiful sacrament, there would be queues in the churches with people waiting to go and receive the love of God in this way! He is offering us a wonderful gift, and yet people don't accept it. He is saying: 'come to me here, I will tell you I forgive you, I love you, you are mine, I love you perfectly, unconditionally' and still people say...no that's too difficult, having to humble myself and say the words to a priest. I don't want your precious gift, if it means humbling myself for five mnutes to receive it!

Let Jesus give us His love, accept his love always, don't refuse to accept his forgiveness, think of the joy in heaven we could be giving...for it was for us sinners that he came

Such is the joy of the Sacrament of Penance!

God bless

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 16, 2003

Answers

bump

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 16, 2003.

....... THE PERFECT
COMPLIMENT

Why is it so,
That God, He made,
A rose surrounded
By thorn and shade.

An aura hid,
In shadow fade,
If touched...a thorn
Prick-price is paid.

Her petals' scent,
All men they bade,
To "pick and pluck.
Don't be afraid."

But God, His will
To be obeyed,
Protects her bloom
In frame portrayed

By piercing thorn
And shadow greyed,
His frailest flower
Is, such...displayed.

JMJ


-- Louisa (sweetlou@central.com), May 17, 2003.

Dear Sara,

Some of my children had their confession violated and the Church would do nothing about it. The violation supported the adultery of their mother and encouraged her behavior. My children were told their defense of the sacrament of marriage was wrong.

But I will not go back to confession again except perhaps on my deathbed. When the Church punishes violators, as its canon law requires, then the sacrament will mean something to me again. But not until then.

I view confession now as confimation of sin, not its rejection. I do not accept its efficacy when the priests do not demand repentance and restituion. There is no such thing as forgiveness without a change from a sinful path and wrongs must be righted or there can be no repentance. It is a sham, otherwise.

Such is my experience with the Sacrament of Penance. A great thing when used appropriately but gravely sinful when touchy feely theology runs the show.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

One of the first things I ever learned about the Sacrament of Penance was that when we are in confession we speak to the priest about our OWN sins. Not others' sins. They will deal with those themselves. I am also surprised that you know what went on in your childrens confessions either, when we consider the confessional seal. What I've written is not at all 'touchy feely' theology, as you put it Karl. What I've written is scriptural based, (e.g. The Good Shepherd and the Prodigal Son Parables), and is Catholic Theology.I wonder if you would have called Jesus' teaching 'touchy feely' when he spoke so often about love! Jesus called the Father Abba, which means daddy!

If you choose not to attend the Sacrament of Penance because of your perception of another person's sin,and the way in which you view the Church's teaching on forgiveness, that's your prerogative. However, you will also be putting your own soul in mortal danger. We're still obliged to participate in this Sacrament once per year I believe, and if we don't then that in itself is a sin. Jesus also told us over and ever again, that we are to forgive others as we want to be forgiven ourselves. So, unless you are without sin, then perhaps you ought to do just as Jesus taught us.

None of us know the whole story behind your constant complaints about the annulment system in the USA, we are being told your version of events, and because that there seems to be a high percentage of invalid attempts at marriage in the USA does not mean that the figures depict wrong-doing by the Church. Perhaps the original catechesis on the Sacrament was lacking, or as in some cases non- existent. If anything, I think we ought to be ensuring that people are adequately catechised about the sacrament of marriage, and thus perhaps avoiding unnecessary annulments in the future.

Every thread on this forum recently has been taken over by people whose agenda seems to be to discredit the Churh and her priests in the pastoral care they give to the members, and in the annulment system in general. I've never seen a subject which can elicit such bitterness and condemnation of others. I cannot believe that EVERY subject relating to Catholicism is in some way relevant to Marriage and Annulments!! (and now I've been drawn in and responded, whilst in the process, no doubt, drawing the wrath of the Annulment Brigade on my head!!)

I stand by what I orignally said...

The Sacrament of Penance is a joy, a treasure of Christ's Church.

Jesus' love IS perfect.

He DOES forgive the repentant.

Heaven DOES rejoice when sinners repent.

Jesus taught us all of these things, I've no reason to doubt Him.

God bless

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 17, 2003.

i must say that it is a sacrament of love...

after attending confession one time i cant even begin to describe the relief that floods me. the burden of my sin is removed and i am forgiven. it doesnt matter if the priest does not understand an act as a sin. i have been told that skipping mass is not a sin before, i shrug it off and double my penance. the forgiveness is valid, even if the teaching of skipping mass is not.

everytime we sin we go back and help to nail our savior to the cross. how great a gift it is that God should forgive us though it is our fault his son was on the cross.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 17, 2003.

Jmj
Great reflections, Sara and "little paul"!

My favorite insights of yours:
(S): "Then we are forgiven and when we are forgiven it feels like our mummy or daddy's arms wrapped lovingly around us."
(P): "i have been told that skipping mass is not a sin before, i shrug it off and double my penance."

Sara, thanks for being brave enough to stand up to the "Annulment Brigade." I have been fighting that lonely battle for a couple of weeks. If you have a chance to read through the archive in the future, you'll see that the forum has almost always had at least one "Brigade" torturing it. Here are some of them:
2000-2001: multiple waves of Fundie Brigades (Bible-only + faith-alone = "eternal security")
2001 (believe it or not, right up to September 11): an Islamic Brigade
2002: a "Goddessss" Brigade
2002: an Anti-Priest/Pedophile Brigade
2002-2003: a schismatic/heretical Quasi-Traditionalist Brigade
2003: an Anti-Tribunal [Annulment] Brigade.

We have survived them all. Jesus will help us to live through more of them.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 17, 2003.

John,

Thanks for your kind comments. I’ve certainly noticed several of the other ‘Brigades’, which you mentioned in your reply earlier I’ve seen a fair amount of the anti-Catholic rhetoric that goes with the territory of a public Catholic forum. The assaults that come from openly anti-Catholic contributors can, to an extent, be excused since they know no better. When people claiming to be practising Catholics assault the Church it’s a different matter entirely, they can be responsible for turning fellow-Catholics away from the Church and also for misleading non-Catholics about the Church’s teaching and practices.

I would respectfully suggest that the Catholic Forum ought to facilitate:

+ Spreading the Good News of Christ

+ The defence of the Catholic Church in her teachings

+ The defence of the Clergy and Religious, bearing in mind that when people make complaints about them we are only hearing one-sided stories/opinions.

+ Answering questions relating to faith and morals from a Catholic perspective, in an orthodox as well as compassionate manner. Using the Catechism for reference, being faithful to the Magisterium. This would also encompass the Sacraments, Liturgy etc.

+ The sharing of faith experiences in our lives and sharing our spirituality

I would also suggest that the following should not be tolerated:

+ Church bashing, where people say the Church is bad or evil or any of the other derogatory terms loosely thrown around. The Church cannot be evil; human beings within the Church may or may not be.

+ People claiming to be Catholic, but not accepting the infallibility of the current pontiff. This can cause dissension amongst the faithful, and has been seen to lead people astray. Again it gives the wrong impression to non-Catholics. It’s offensive on a Catholic Forum to read some of these postings, and may mislead many people about the true Church. It’s also calling Jesus a liar, since he told us that he was sending the Holy Spirit till he comes again. I believe Him

As I work for the Curia I speak to people every day complaining about the Church, the priests, how the Sacraments are celebrated, etc., it’s part of my job. My experience tells me that often these matters are not what they seem to be and that it’s always important to listen to both sides of the story before drawing any conclusions. That’s one of the reasons I get so annoyed at times - incidentally, the amount of typos I make is in direct proportion to the extent of my annoyance at any given moment!

Thank goodness for the Sacrament of Penance!

May He bless you and keep you, may He give you his peace.

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 17, 2003.

"2003: an Anti-Tribunal [Annulment] Brigade."

John,

You have already stated you have no experiential knowledge of the US Tribunals...

-YET, you persist in concerted effort to converse authoritatively on the subject in addition to discounting others by cloaking yourself in the 'defense of Church' super hero cape and leotard outfit you seem so proud of...

Your terminology albeit self serving is incorrect regarding the intent of the 'anti-Church rebels' that are so bothersome in your day day to super hero adventures...

Try reclassifying this 'bothersome' group to the: -- "2003: Marriage as God & Church intends Brigade"

I am not anti-Church - Are you anti-marriage?

Maybe, you just have a problem reconciling FACT -Tribunals in the US can and are failing to perform as required (they are 'bad') AND at the same time, the Church is 'good' -BOTH at the same time....

As I have stated before -there is no middle ground where God, Truth & Church are concerned -the US Tribunal system is lost -as are you on this topic...

P.S.

-I can see you hiding behind your cute little outfit -up, up, and away...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 17, 2003.

Daniel:
Interesting way you have, of accosting John Gecik: ''John,
You have already stated you have no experiential knowledge of the US Tribunals --''

Is this to say you HAVE the experiental knowledge (does that mean ''experience''--? ) which John doesn't have? Tell us about your experiential knowledge. No capes or tights, please.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2003.

eugene,

My experiential knowledge is ongoing and for the sake of 'not letting the cat out of the bag' -as I am 'still' in first instance AND would not be surprised if some of the pastoral that may be involved visit this site...

What I have posted regarding my situation (a little specifics) is posted here under the topic I addressed above. In general, I am sure you can read between the lines... I have done much research on this topic as I am involved directly. -- I am no longer ignorant of the Church's position (which is in opposition to what I am seeing in my case), I am no longer ignorant of what should have happened (that would have prevented this from getting this far), I am no longer ignorant of what should be happening and what the Tribunal in my case should be doing etc. I am no longer ignorant of what is going on in the US (generally speaking) all in the name of relative pastoralism regarding divorce/adultery/'remarriage'...

I have contracted a canon lawyer (I would call him the Johnny Cochran of canon law!)

My case is unique in some regards; however, I am afraid to say probably not isolated. Not only have the moral relativists and in some cases secular pastoral social engineers that infiltrated my diocese been involved in an attempt to 'push through' my case and 'free' my wife from a valid marriage... These 'people' were actually involved in destroying our relationship before there was even any talk of divorce (a feminist 'therapist' from Catholic Charities was so kind as to suggest my wife follow her 'feelings'(Jung), disobey Church teachings(leave marriage & divorce) -the therapist aided my wife in 'discovering' that our 10+ year marriage was but a 'fantasy' -a dream of what could be (typical new age 'individual' therapy)... As far as the Tribual -I have documented numerous instances of procedural impropriety in my case (signed documents by the Judicial Vicar in some cases) I am sure I will have to appeal to the Rota(Rome) AND Rome will see...

I will also come after the 'secular' wolf in sheeps clothing 'Catholic Charities' too -stay tuned...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 17, 2003.

Jmj

If you hadn't noticed it already, Gene, I hope that you have now grasped the very negative attitude that "Daniel" brings here and the destructive influence that he is having by sprinkling his personal problems across a wide array of threads, even where they are irrelevant. [The term "Anti-Tribunal (Annulment) Brigade" refers to "Daniel" and either (1) his appearances here under other aliases or (2) the appearances of certain cronies of his who also frequently whine about tribunals.]

Gene, "Daniel" knows next to nothing, but pretends that he is an expert who can advise others here. He writes to me: "You have already stated you have no experiential knowledge of the U.S. Tribunals."

Actually I have never said anything on this subject. What I did say was that I have never worked for or with a tribunal. I said this because of the Brigade's repetitive attempts to paint me as a tribunal judge or puppet who would defend any tribunal action whatsoever [which I do not do]. As soon as they found that they could no longer attack me as some "blind apologist" for tribunals, they demonically turned 180% degrees and began unjustifiably to attack me as ignorant of the tribunal/nullity process. A classic case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't." They are too blinded by their own pain and fury to realize that I know plenty about the tribunal/nullity process.

Gene, in reading the reply of "Daniel" to your question about how he has "experiential knowledge," I hope that you can see that he has "experiential knowledge" only of his own case -- and only as a respondent (not as a petitioner, not as an appellant, and certainly not as a tribunal judge). Therefore, his "knowledge" is very limited, very subjective, and very biased. All of these things add up to make him and his "Brigade" (1) eminently unqualified to be coming here to flood us with complaint-filled threads and (2) eminently ineffective in advising/informing ordinary people who come here with marriage/nullity-related questions.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.

John,

You make me laugh...

The truth regarding you and or me and this topic is self evident and posted on this BB for all to see...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 18, 2003.

I read, yesterday, in the Catholic New York(the NY Diocesan newspaper) that the Pope in his Eucharistic letter stated that those who do nothing to lessen the suffering of the poor or who are indifferent to the suffering of the poor are not worthy to receive the Eucharist.

Throughout my Catholic education I have always been taught that the "poor" are not simply those who lack material things. I have been taught that "poor" includes all who suffer from injustice, particularly those who cannot defend themselves against laws and institutions which deprive them of their rights and for which they have no real recourse or chance EVER to have justice.

In the sense I have ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT each of you are NOT WORTHY to receive the Eucharist.

I know you will each have witty, cute "Catholic" things to say but I do not care. The wounds you inflict with your self-righteous indignant attacks against those who continue to be wronged and who have no real recourse to, will help me grow closer to Christ, in spite of my anger and obvious sinfulness.

If your leaders, the clergy including the Holy Father, would listen through the pain, for the facts and actually do something rather than mere talk(I guess the Pope is the only one who has a "right" to Pontificate) and put some effort into complaints they might actually make some headway into the problems. But as long as there are legions of stiff-necked, know-it-all but unwilling-to-entertain-any thoughts-but-their-own-party-line bigots among the faithful it is hard for those in authority to hear the cries of the poor over the din of the smug multitude of the "indifferent" the Pope was referring to.

If I have told you something that was untrue than I would rightfully expect to be held to task for it. But, I have not. AND I am not among those who attack the Church for trivia or reasons which many like to.

Every Catholic has the God-given right to dissent, when that dissention is routed in truth and related to facts not fantasy. You, unlike the Pope, would rather see uniformity. He wants unity not uniformity.

If any of you really cared, as the Pope requires, for worthiness to receive the Eucharist, then you would DEMAND of each of your ordinaries that these complaints be given proper hearing. If you do not care, which is my guess from your posts, then as said by the Holy Father himself, you should avoid the Eucharist. Will you? I doubt it because you are all self-convinced that you are each right. I would bet none of you have ventured to seek those of us who complain to see if we speak truth. But what would it matter. If you are like the ever present John, injustice does not matter. Move on. Sorry John, but that does not square with what I see in the Catechism. Or now John are you going to play the Protestant game of deifying the Catechism as they do Scriptures and beat me to death with quotes which prove NOTHING, other than massaging YOUR EGO.

Jesus met with those like you, hell that is why he died. For the self-righteous too. That is why in some places even HE-GOD could not work miracles. Because people like you were there.

I would have put my hand in HIS side, like Thomas but at least I would have told HIM of my doubts to his face and I would have not drowned out those in pain because "they are dominating the poor forum".

Paul, if you think I have lied about my experiences, call me on it. If you think that it is better to hear only half-truth agreement with the Church rather than the factual-dirty-laundry-and-skeletons-in-the closet other parts of the WHOLE story, just let me know via e-mail. If so, I will not post. I will respect your judgement.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.

Dear Sara,

Which Curia do you work for? In the U.S.? Tell us and I will try to find the annulemt statistics? I am curious or is that curiaous?

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.

Dear Sara,

Sorry to beat upon you but I, too, work daily with people from all over the world. Sometimes, for short parts of conversation, our topic moves toward religion. I am up front with my real version of Catholicism and you might be surprised at some responses. Some have only very little real experience with Catholics and are richer for having heard what the religion is about.

One non-christian mother was stunned to hear this Catholic tell her his opinion that she should raise her children in her "tradition" even though she is an "agnostic". She asked how a catholic could say such a thing and I told her it was because the Pope has lived such an example, to the best of my knowledge. By her "tradition" I meant her historical religion. I advised her to raise her little one to RESPECT others' beliefs and to seek commonality and truth, which ultimately leads to God.

She was impressed and left with more respect and understanding of Catholicism than she had before. I see examples of the goodness of my Catholicism daily and I am so greatful for the postion I have. I do not denegrate Catholicism I give it flesh and blood through the respect each person I see gets, and cannot ignore.

I live what I believe and I am Catholic and I am a dissenter and time will show that the facts upon which my dissent is based are consistant with Christ, more so than what is currently practiced in the Church. It will be a better Church for my complaints and yours and others like you, about me.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.

Karl

It's futile continuing with this conversation, particularly since this discussion was not meant to have anything to do with Annulments; it was a thread about the beautiful Sacrament of Penance. I will, therefore, only say two more things to you on this thread:

1. I am not in the US, and do not wish to disclose which Curia I am employed by.

2. Please leave me to make my own examination of conscience before receiving/not receiving the Eucharist, I am capable of doing that for myself.

Thank you

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 18, 2003.

''[A] mother was stunned to hear this Catholic tell her his opinion that she should raise her children in her "tradition" even though she is an "agnostic". She asked how a Catholic could say such a thing and I told her it was because the Pope has lived such an example, to the best of my knowledge.''

Karl, what balderdash! Our Holy Father has been kind toward unbelievers, not nonchallant about their unbelief. If you expected him to bare his teeth at the sight of moslems and Buddhists, you'd have been disappointed, naturally. If in your wildest stretch of the imagination you can picture John Paul II advising a mother to rear her children in agnosticism, you are out of your mind.

You aren't a true dissident; because you have no plausible orientation to suggest. Only opposition. To dissent over any authority, you must correct an aberration, not just stand up and call for revolt.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2003.

Dear Sara,

Your perogative Sara. But maintaining your positions may keep you in sin which cannot be licitly forgiven in Confession, which you may mock if you do not repent of your actions. If you want to lie to God, as you very well may do, go ahead. You show no mercy for those who experience profound injustice.

You appear to be a hypocrite who works for the Church and disregards what the Pope says. A shining example of Catholicism. Such as you led to the death of the great Thomas More whose head rolled at the foot of the divorce/annulment machine. I stand with More. And Fisher. You seem to side with Henry VIII. Maybe the "Anglican Rite" would be sweeter to you taste.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), May 18, 2003.

Does anyone have the least idea of what Karl is talking about? Why am I in sin? In all honest I'm totally lost as to what I've been accused of!

I posted a thread about how beautiful the Sacrament of Penance is, and somehow it has degenerated into a personal attack on me, accusing me of sin (the sin of what, I do not know!)

I would be grateful if anyone can enlighten me as to what on earth I'm being accused of.

Thanks

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 18, 2003.

Denial, I would surmise Sara. We are in the midst of a multi-pronged Satanic attack on the Bride of Christ while the vast majority of the so-called Faithful fiddle.

It is quite disheartening at times. It's disturbing on the one hand to know that I've had a hand in the fiddling in the past, but what's encouraging to me day by day, almost hour by hour in fact, is that the ice is melting and the post conciliar nightmare is about to be cast down.

Now... does anybody have an idea as to what I'm talking about? lol! Hey, better yet, what exactly is it that me and my ilk have been accused of.

But hey, I'm trespassing on your Sacred Ground.

My sincerest apologies. Mea maxima culpa.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 18, 2003.

jane, dont be dumb, nobody ever said that. we just said it was a sacrament of love. in fact, they all are. but its important to note that we are forgiven though we are not worthy of forgiveness...

karl, ive heard alot of your type of arguement (dont listen to the church, i have the answer) although it generally comes from the protestants. well, actually, you claim that just you and the pope have the answer, so your type of arguement would probably align more with schismatics like jake and isabel.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 19, 2003.