All I can see is people getting married, and after a short while it is divorce, and then marrying someone else etc. Children who grow up in these circumstances, seeing their parents often follow the same path because in their mind that is the right thing to do.

How did it get so worse? I am not saying that the west is bad but I am unfamiliar to the western culture anyway. What I have seen is even in the middle of problems, the husband and wife sticks together, and even though there are divorces, most of them would never marry another if the spouse is alive. Here it is the exact opposite. Catholics! God himself said that the concept of divorce was given due to the hardness of or hearts.

I have to assume that this has to do with the practice of "dating" which is actually considered a bad thing in the east. Dating - find out if someone is good enough for us - hang around and live a little off-the-mark - and if not satisifed, go find another one - and so on. Actually, I have only seen love. If a person loves someone, he or she speaks about the wish to marry him or her, and for the sole purpose of marriage only, and it is a pure thing to do. There is no find someone-spend some time-leave-find another-try to justify all this - etc. All the parents are against this idea. Love is one thing, but lust is another, and dating is something else. Too much freedom is indeed worse than too little.

This is not a problem of west alone because as boundaries became narrow, cultures mix up together and in many parts in the east, this phenomenon is being spread around, and as a result more and more bad things happen and divorce is becoming a part of everyday life. Still, not everyone is like that. Even though a minority, I have seen many catholics who have not given their values and faith, and live and raise their children in the grace of God. What happened to the rest?

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), May 19, 2003

Answers

Jmj
Hello, Abraham.

I really don't think that "dating" has anything to do with the divorce problem. I will offer you seven other major reasons for it (and other people may offer still more reasons) ...

(1) Many "westerners" are hooked on "hero worship" -- particularly celebrities (especially movie stars and recording artists). The media, taking advantage of this to make money, provide vast opportunities for these people to follow the lives of the celebrities. The celebrities get divorced and remarried at amazing rates. This plants the idea, in the minds of the hero worshippers, that they can do the same.

(2) The characters in movies and TV shows, especially "soap operas," live incredibly immoral lives, with lots of infidelity, divorce, and remarriage. This has "trained" the minds of many "westerners" that divorce and remarriage are OK.

(3) The United States, Canada, and many northern European nations are predominantly Protestant. Many Protestants wrongly interpret the Bible, thinking that divorce and remarriage can be OK. Since the 1960s, the Protestant-dominated courts and legislatures have made it easier to divorce in these nations. Gradually Catholics, who used to reject divorce almost totally, have fallen into copying their Protestant brethren.

(4) People in the "west" have stopped learning how to live with pain and difficulties in life. Since the 1960s, there has been a constant need to be relieved of pain (physical or mental) -- either by drugs or by "escapism." Escapism can mean immersing oneself in something that distracts one from pain, but more often it means running away from responsibilities or people who cause one to feel pain.

(5) Since the 1970s, the "feminist" movement has messed up people's thinking about the roles of the two sexes in marriage, leading to strife.

(6) The availability of "dependable" contraceptives since 1960 (e.g., the pill and other hormonal garbage) and the cultural acceptance of the barbarism known as sterilization ["barnyard birth control"] have led to premarital and extra-marital sexual relationships. They have also led to many childless marriages, the kind of unions that people are far more likely to run away from. Contraceptives and sterilization lead to infidelity toward spouses, disrespect for the institution of marriage, and a hunter-pursuing-the-next-quarry mentality in men.

(7) Pornography is widely available (on the Internet, in printed/photographed form, in theatres, on videotapes, etc.). Addiction to this is big and growing. Many men become dissatisfied with their wives because the latter cannot live up to their husbands' fantasy expectations, generated by pornography.

I think that these are the greatest contributors to the high divorce rate.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.

I think the "freeness" of dating does contribute to the mindset behind the divorce rate. (Depending of course on the people who are involved in the dating relationship. I can't say that everyone who dates will divorce, that is just ludicrous.)

John,
(1) agree
(2) agree
(3) I don't know Protestant beliefs well enough to say anything here.
(4) agree
(5) Hmmm. Ha ha. I think it really depends on which "feminism" category one subscribes to, but yes, there are many aspects to the psycho-feminist movement that are very anti-woman.
(6) agree (7) again "if"-y. I know lots of people who are pornos (akin to wineos ;) ). This doesn't make them think real women are less attractive. They are usually competent enough to know that the modals are usually airbrushed. However, most porn does portray women in a light that is very negative (objectifying) and that certainly has an effect on how people who watch porn see women.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.

Thank you, Collegian.
Yes, in #5, I should have spoken of "certain strains of feminism" causing trouble. There is at least one strain (sometimes called Christian Feminism, as held by "Feminists for Life") that seeks legitimate equal rights for women worldwide (e.g., voting, holding property, equal pay for truly equal performance, freedom from being aborted).

I don't agree, though, that #7 is "iffy." There is nothing of good whatsoever in porn. It has no redeeming qualities. Airbrushing, when done, is only to eliminate minor blemishes, not to create something out of nothing.
My point (perhaps not well expressed) was that some middle-aged and elderly porn addicts become dissatisfied with their (similarly aged) wives, having developed a longing for much younger and more physically attractive fantasy objects. This has led to divorces.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 19, 2003.

Oh, I didn't say porn had any redeeming qualities...
;)

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.

For once, I tend to agree with most of what John G stated.

I think I can add a 8th: cheating and a 9th: abuse (physical and verbal). this has to do with # 5. For years Catholic women were told to stay in the marriage even when the man was cheating or physically or verbally abusing them.

What feminism has done is say to women: look, don't be stupid, you don't need a man to get through life. Women are listening.

What I believe Abraham is needed is for us men to set the example.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), May 19, 2003.

As a Cathoilc, I would, stay married to an abusive husband, but you can be *darn* sure I we would be seperated.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.

Fabbo, I can't even spell Catholic.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.

Oh, and ps, It would be phenominally stupid for a woman to stay in a home with an abusive husband (physical or verbal), esp if they have children. I'm not advocating divorce in these instances, but don't stay in the home. That is stupid. It's putting people in danger, maybe even of thier lives (if it's physical abuse). As for emotional abuse, It's mjust as bad as physical abuse, except that the scars are invisible so people write it off.

Stupidity is not the answer.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 19, 2003.

I agree with all that is said here. However, even though an abusive husband/wife is a legimate reason to seperate, it would be good if every other means is tried first to mend the relationship. If divorce is thought about at every quarrels, small or big, I would say it is a sign of immaturity.

Still J.F, I think there is a connection for this to dating, however small it is. I mean, I don't think selecting and testing people in that fasion is clearly not a good way to marry, and I am sure that in many cases, it is an open path to temptation, however strong one is. God said that if we look upon women with a little lust(and the other way too of course, which is understood), we have already commited adultery. Why make ourselves vulnerable to such things? I really think the process of dating (if it is something more than friendship and something less than pure love), is a very bad practice. I am not used to the traditions here, but I can't think of it as a good practice. Love is pure of course, when the intention to marry one another is there. In the sense of For the "temporary" purposes, it is pure evil.

Pornography is the worst. I enjoy movies and TV but things are getting worse. Why do they have to include all the nudity and other things in good movies? Has that become a tradition? That is worse than pornography because this is so worse, no one can watch television with their family without unwanted surprises. This perverted practice of using the human body as means of temptation and sin, and for luring others into it is one of the worst things that we face today. It is too sad to see that no one cares about controlling these things.

I guess that when someone famous, like a celebrity does things like it, it is considered "cool" by some teenagers, but seeing all these divorces and remarriages everywhere in the name of silly things is a very sad thing, especially when it is done by catholics. We, should know well about the divinity of marriage.

There are many cases of serious abuse/cheat, but divorcing the husband/wife and remarrying someone else is the bad thing. In all the cases, divorce should be done only if everything else fails and everything was done to settle problems. These divorces make marriage look like some cheap relationship which can be bought or thrown away at will. Is someone able to "undo" themselves from the relationship of brother-sister, parent-children etc? Marriage is the holy sacrament, infact the very first one ever, and all these practices just throw away the holiness of that. It is supposed to be a relationship which would never end.

What would happen if God abandons us for our crimes against him, which we do everyday and which hurts him a lot? What if he permanantly breaks the closest of all relationships - our relationship with him? He has every reason to do that still he is extremely kind a patient with him. Why can't we show a little kindness and patience instead of finding reasons to justify ourselves?

St Paul said that if a man marries, he tries to please the woman and wise versa, instead of pleasing God. It seems like as time progressed, man cannot do even that. What must be the saint thinking right now?

Mathew 19: 6 - "They are one body. Let man not seperate what God brought together." 9 - "I tell you, if anyone divorces and marries someone else except if it is due to adultery, he is commiting adultery, and the one who marries the divorced is also commiting adultery."

Unless I am mistaken, these are the words of God himself, so I wouldn't look around to find excueses for a divorce. The next 3 sentences there actually explains why catholic priests want to stay unmarried, by their choice. Perhaps the protestants should think about that.

10 - "If marriage is so tough, itsn't it good not to marry?" 11 - "No one except one who have the grace can do something like that". 12 - "There are ones who can't have sex, born from the mother's womb, there are ones who became like that due to men, and then there are others who became so, to inherit heaven. Let he who can receive it."

The holy catholic priests who do this by their own will, are devouting themselves to God to serve him full time. (also, serving the poor is not even a bit different from serving God). There are also other people who decide to live like that, and try to live like that.

Perhaps if the common view is that if there are problems in marriage we have a right to divorce, it would be better for those people if they decided not to live a married life. The pharasees were extremely scared by the words of God, when he explained about the importance of the relationship and the extreme nature of divorce. They were too trying to find out reasons to justify divorce. God made man as man and woman, and made that relationship the most holy. We trying to insult that would only come back and haunt us later, when all we could do would be just wish.

The church indeed allows divorce under certain circumstances, but to understand why the church allows it, all we have do is refer to what the jews asked God about why Moses made divorce to be allowed. He spoke the truth - it is because the hardness of our hearts. I don't understand the need to dig up complex rules and guides about the process of marriage and divorce. It seems like even a very simple man or even a child would understand it from God's words alone. I guess as we get more "modern", we are truly becoming more barbaric.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), May 19, 2003.

Also, in the case of adultery (which is the only perfect reason for divorce - not my words), nothing happens to the holiness or purity of the victim if he/she marries someone else. They are as pure as ever. No chance of a doubt about that. In other circumstances, I should say the exact opposite would be the truth.

The argument about children's safety in case of abuse(not serious) is virtually pointless. We could let them live in a perverted state, being open to every sort of evil and discard them as cultures or progress, and not raise one voice against it but think about their safety as a means to throw away a relationship. We care not about their souls but their body. How could we justify ourselves before God when we face him? Do we dare question his words and call his commandments "old fashioned"?

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), May 19, 2003.

"We care not about their souls but their body"

Abraham,

That was beautiful!

To add anything to it -diminishing...

Many buy into this lie -this bait & switch which in most cases only attempts to protect from things that could or may happen - psychological diagnosis 'soothsayer predictions'...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 20, 2003.

Yep, as both a woman and a person who has put up with much emotional abuse, I would still take the kids out of the house. I didn't say I wouldn't try everything to heal the marriage. I wouldn't divorce but I sure as heck would move out and take the kids. And I haven't bought into any liberal media blahdy blahdy blah, I'm speaking from my own personal experience.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 20, 2003.

Who decides who is abusing whom? Who has the right to take the children? The one who does the abusing or the one who wants it to stop? What is abuse? Is abuse the undermining of a marriage? Is it merely physical? Is it mental? What is abuse, offensive or defensive? It is an extremely complicated set of issues.

No one, in their right mind wants to abuse others. But when institutions force injustice upon the innocent, it is THEY who are the drivers and motivating forces behind abuse. When other institutions knowingly and willingly accept and support corporate abuse it puts individuals into situations where they cannot defend themselves, where often they are manipulated to appear to be the abusers while those who CONTROL the situations are the authors of the abuse through their ability to manipulate systems with their power, wealth, connections or the fact that society wrongly presumes and enforces the notion that a mother always acts in the best interest of her children when in many cases she is acting only to further her own self-interest at the expense of all the collateral damage, which to her is acceptable because of the real culprit--CONTROL.

Life is very often not what it appears. WEven to those who are living it.

Karl

The Catholic Church has historically taught, until its recent cooperation with the divorce/annulment mentality, that the innocent spouse is moral the one to have custody when their is a separation. It has now abandoned that position, perhaps not in theory but in practice for sure.

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hot mail.com), May 21, 2003.

I'm talking about drastic cases of domestic violence.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 21, 2003.

OK, OD.

Something just does not look right about, OK, OD, so, Ok Operadiva.

No spouse is bound to stay in an abusive situation. The vows are for better or for worse, not for better or for abuse. But, there must be and is often not, proper discernment for who is abusing whom. There must be objective standards utilized, not subjective. It is very possible to manipulate situations to appear what they are not.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkewrkajwen@hotmail.com), May 21, 2003.

Jmj

Cecilia, you are right.
As you are now realizing, some misguided people, with an almost caveman mentality, would try to preserve a couple under the same roof regardless of what has happened to the victim spouse and/or the children. They are so obsessed that they end up perverting what is supposed to be a healthy anti-divorce/anti-separation mentality.

Here is what Canon Law says:
"Canon 1153
"§1 A spouse who occasions grave danger of soul or body to the other or to the children, or otherwise makes the common life unduly difficult, provides the other spouse with a reason to leave, either by a decree of the local Ordinary or, if there is danger in delay, even on his or her own authority.
"§2 In all cases, when the reason for separation ceases, the common conjugal life is to be restored, unless otherwise provided by ecclesiastical authority."

Naturally, many cases exist in which "the reason for separation" NEVER "ceases," so separation must become permanent. At any rate, except when "there is danger in delay," the Church wants people to consult with pastors (priests and bishops) to discern whether or not separation is justified.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 21, 2003.

"The vows are for better or for worse, not for better or for abuse."

I know. Like I said earlier, I would leave the house, I didn't say I would leave the marriage. There is a difference.

-- OperaDiva (solosoprano@juno.com), May 21, 2003.