Hello, I am wondering if what I was taught at my Catholic high school was true: are the married couple really not allowed to write their own vows? I was taught that there are vows we must render by, and that's that.

-- Bambi (bambi121899@yahoo.com), June 10, 2003

Answers

Response to Vows

There are very specific requirements which must be met for a valid marriage to occur, as should be evident from all the discussions of annulment on this forum. Couples attempting to write their own vows would simply open the floodgates of invalid marriages, virtually guaranteeing that almost every Catholic marriage could subseqently be declared invalid by reason of lack of canonical form.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 10, 2003.

Response to Vows

bambi,

if you already knew the answer that you wanted to hear, why did you come here to ask?

the other paul

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 11, 2003.

Response to Vows

Personalized vows can be incorporated. See your local priest. God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 11, 2003.

Response to Vows

Jmj
Hello, John P.

I believe that you are mistaken in saying that "[p]ersonalized vows can be incorporated" into the Catholic rite of the sacrament of Marriage. [I will stand corrected if you can quote an official Church source to the contrary.]

My first reaction to your words was to consider the fact that Paul is a deacon and is unlikely to be wrong about this. [Deacons can preside at/witness Catholic wedding ceremonies.]

My second reaction was to think about the fact that the vows are words specifically written in an official sacramental rite. As such, they were originally in Latin and are now translated into English. A national/regional "variant" of the original vows would have to be written and then approved by the bishops' conference and the Vatican. It doesn't make sense, then, that a couple (or their priest) could compose something new as a replacement.

I sought confirmation of this at EWTN's "experts' Q&A forum." There I found two separate experts who confirmed my thinking:

(1) [from lay theologian Colin Donovan] ---- "I am sure that somewhere, at some time, some couple wrote their wedding vows for a Catholic wedding. However, since the vows represent the solemn gift of oneself for the purposes, and according to the theological meaning, of Christian marriage, I simply cannot imagine that this was, or ever will be, licit. Certain essential things must be stated. Depending on what the vows said one could imagine them to be invalid in some cases. Imagine the anger of a couple years later to find out they were allowed to 'marry' according to invalid vows. Couples, and their children, have a right to be certain that they marriages are valid, to be certain that their confessions are valid, to be certain that the Sacrifice and Presence are confected. This is why the Church judges forms used in the sacraments, rather than the individual. As for the law, in the section of the marriage ritual dealing with consent it provides stable forms, including an alternate form which 'may be used in the United States.' Clearly, other forms may not be used. The freedom for a couple to write [their] own, therefore, cannot be found anywhere in sacramental theology or liturgical law."

(2) [from Fr. Luis Rodriguez] ---- "The order in which everything appears in 'Together For Life' [a book by Fr. Joseph Champlin] IS the order of the Rite for Marriage and may not be changed in any way."

Paul, can you confirm that the two options that can be used at Catholic marriage ceremonies in the U.S. are the following (which I found on the Internet):

----- I, [speaker's name], take you, [partner's name], for my lawful [wife/husband], to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health, to love and to cherish, until death do us part.

----- I, [speaker's name], take you, [partner's name], to be my [husband/wife]. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love and honor you all the days of my life.'

I also found that, in the older Catholic rite, the following was (is?) used [and, no, it did not have the word "obey" in it]:
Priest (to each in turn): _____, will you take _____ here present for your lawful [wife/husband], according to the rite of Holy Mother the Church.
Response: I will.
Couple: I, _____, take thee, _____, to my wedded [wife/husband], to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part, and therefore I plight thee my troth.
[To "plight thee my troth" means to "pledge you my fidelity."]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 11, 2003.

Response to Vows

John p is right in a small way,

i have seen catholic weddings where AFTER the ceremony the couple read brief pledges of devotion to each other. never have i seen such a thing take place during the ceremony of an orthodox valid wedding however.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 11, 2003.

Response to Vows

Hi Bambi-

As to the use of one's own wedding vows at a Catholic wedding, I can speak from my personal experience. When my now-wife and I went to her parish for marriage preparation, we were given literature that had two approved sets of wedding vows. We were not entirely happy with either, so we took the one that was closest to what we wanted and modified it.

The priest who was guiding us through the marriage prep would not hear of it; he was adamant that we had to use one of the approved versions exactly as written.

However, we were actually getting married in a ceremony with a different priest, in a different parish, in a different diocese. That priest said we could use our own vows if they covered the essentials. He looked at our version of the vows, said they were fine, and we used them.

So, judging from my own personal experience:

If the question you are asking is "in a formal liturgical sense, can in principle a couple getting married in a Catholic Church write their own vows?", I will say that I don't know. I have no reason to doubt either priest other than they disagree with each other on this point. As the second was in a different diocese from the first, it may be possible that there were different diocesan regulations that explain the different answers; I know that aspects of marriage prep differ by diocesan regulation, maybe this does too, so it is possible both were right, although I don't know one way or another.

If your question is "are, in practice, couples getting married in the Catholic Church using vows that differ in wording from the official approved versions?", the answer is "yes, at least in some parishes with some priests". The second priest didn't seem to think there was anything at all unusual going on with our request or of his approval of the modified vows - there was certainly no reluctance on his part. It would seem to have been a common practice, at least with him.

If your question is "I'm planning on getting married in the Catholic Church; will I be able to I write my own vows?" the answer is "it depends on your priest; and if your priest will allow it, it then depends upon the wording of the vows you write".

Again, this is what happened to me in my case. Your mileage may differ.


-- Rick (rosenbergerra@yahoo.com), June 12, 2003.

Response to Vows

again, rick, your statements on how to cheat the system are disgusting. John, your turn, rain down some hellfire and brimstone on this one.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 13, 2003.

Response to Vows

Jmj
Hello, paul and Rick.

Rick, the basic principle is found in article #22 of the Second Vatican Council's "Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy" (Sacrosanctum concilium, 1963). These words have been repeated in various post-conciliar documents too:

"Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See [the pope] and, as laws may determine, on the bishop. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy, within certain defined limits, belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established. [This refers to bishops' conferences. JFG] Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority."

The "liturgy" refers to (1) the official prayer of the Church [the Divine Office] and (2) the rites used for the sacraments -- including the Mass, Marriage, etc.. Therefore, I believe that neither an engaged couple nor their priest may modify the approved vows. I believe that the first priest to whom you spoke was absolutely correct, while the second priest did you a grave disservice, possibly even allowing you to use vows that resulted in the invalidity of your "union." We cannot offer, as an excuse, the fact that some (maybe even many) priests allow couples to compose their own vows. These priests are either ignorant of what is proper and required or they are defiantly disobedient toward it (not knowing or not caring about the seriousness of the consequences).

Rick, I strongly encourage you to approach an orthodox priest today and ask him to witness your (and your wife's) renewal of vows, this time using one of the approved forms. Please do not brush this off or make light of it. There have been many cases of children having to be "re-baptized" (actually baptized for the first time) because the words originally used were illicit and invalid.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 15, 2003.

Response to Vows

John-

I know this thread has become about your ego and not about marriage vows, but

Roman Catholic Diocese of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, Canada

Marriage Guidelines

The couple may compose their own vows but they must be approved by the pastor since it is necessary that the words chosen indicate that all other persons are excluded from intimacy, and that the union they are now entering is intended to last until God calls one of them in death. [emphasis mine]

However, I suppose that Bishop Morand is one of those who "are either ignorant of what is proper and required or they are defiantly disobedient toward it". So never mind.

-- Rick (rosenbergerra@yahoo.com), June 24, 2003.

Response to Vows

Jmj

Hello, Rick.
You wrote: "I know this thread has become about your ego and not about marriage vows, but ..."

On the contrary ... It is about vows and not about me. I have no desire for notoriety or attention on this or any other thread. Your childish insult can be forgiven though, because I know that my message shook you to the core -- helping you to realize that you may not actually be married.

You really needn't have bother posting those links and the quotation. I could have told you that anyone can find sites wherein ignorant or dissident priests and diocesan bureaucrats state all manner of errors about marriage (the rite, etc.) -- as well as sites wherein well-informed and obedient clergy and laity give you the facts (as I have done).

You wrote: "... I suppose that Bishop Morand is one of those who 'are either ignorant of what is proper and required or they are defiantly disobedient toward it.' So never mind."

Actually, I have no basis for criticizing the bishop, because he may not have read that page at the Internet site. If he did, though, then most certainly he is "either ignorant of what is proper and required or ... defiantly disobedient toward it." I'm surprised that you don't know that there are many dissident and/or disobedient bishops in the world and that there have been horror stories galore coming out of Canada during recent decades. Well, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 24, 2003.

Response to Vows

John-

The relevant canon law seems to be:
Canon 1119: Apart from a case of necessity, in the celebration of marriage those rites are to be observed which are prescribed in the liturgical books approved by the Church, or which are acknowledged by lawful customs.
Canon 1120: Can. 1120 The Episcopal Conference can draw up its own rite of marriage, in keeping with those usages of place and people which accord with the Christian spirit; it is to be reviewed by the Holy See, and it is without prejudice to the law that the person who is present to assist at the marriage is to ask for and receive the expression of the consent of the contracting parties.
What is your take on canon 1119, in particular on the phrase "or which are acknowledged by lawful customs"?

Also, Sacrosanctum concilium sets forth: 77. The marriage rite now found in the Roman Ritual is to be revised and enriched in such a way that the grace of the sacrament is more clearly signified and the duties of the spouses are taught.

"If any regions are wont to use other praiseworthy customs and ceremonies when celebrating the sacrament of matrimony, the sacred Synod earnestly desires that these by all means be retained" (41).
< br> Moreover the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 52, of this Constitution is free to draw up its own rite suited to the usages of place and people, according to the provision of Art. 63. But the rite must always conform to the law that the priest assisting at the marriage must ask for and obtain the consent of the contracting parties.
What is your take on the second paragraph above, in which "the sacred Synod earnestly desires" that "other praiseworthy customs and ceremonies when celebrating the sacrament of matrimony" "by all means be retained"?

-- Rick (rosenbergerra@yahoo.com), June 25, 2003.

Response to Vows

Dear Rick,

What you presented above refers to the power of the local bishop to allow variations in sacramental rites, and then only when specifically approved by the Holy See. It has nothing to do with individual Catholics writing their own personal sacramental forms. To allow that would guarantee an epidemic of invalid "marriages", for a typical couple does not possess the knowledge or background to ensure that a rite covers all elements essential to validity, nor does the average parish priest possess the necessary background to approve or disapprove such forms.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 25, 2003.

Response to Vows

John and Paul-

Are you worried about lack of form, or lack of effective consent? Is it 1) that a marriage is invalid if the vows are different than the those set up in the approved rites for the reason that a proper form was not used, or 2) that the marriage is invalid only if the vows used are "defective", that is do not include the essential elements for the exchange of consent. In other words if a couple were to write and use their own vows and do not use the approved vows, is the marriage per se invalid for lack of form, or would the wording of the vows used need to be examined to determine the quality of the consent? Or something else?

-- Rick (rosenbergerra@yahoo.com), June 25, 2003.

Response to Vows

Dear Rick,

Use of an unapproved form of marital vows which nevertheless covered all the required elements would be illicit, but would not necessarily render the sacrament invalid. However, my point was that a general policy of allowing couples to write their own vows, and parish priests to approve them, would guarantee that many of the forms thus created would NOT include the essential components of valid marital vows, and therefore WOULD render the sacrament invalid.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 25, 2003.

Response to Vows

Rick, I agree with Paul's last two posts. (He certainly doesn't need my approval. I just decided to reply because you addressed a message to both of us.)
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 25, 2003.