Hi,

I would like to know what other catholics think about the words that a pastor said during his sermon last sunday.

He made the statement that we must welcome everyone into our community. The went on to say that it doesn't matter if someone is rich or poor, what race they are, or if they are straight or gay, then he quickly continued his sermon.

When i heard these words i was very confused. i couldn't believe that a priest would say such at thing. I just wanted to leave. I think he is right that we should welcome people from all walks of life into our community, but i have to strongly disagree with his statement that singles out gays. The church clearly states that homosexual acts are wrong and so does the bible. Why didn't he just say that we should welcome sinners as well? I would be fine with this. But he had no reason say such a thing. His statment makes it seem like being gay is ok. As a catholic i will not accept this. it is clearly wrong.

I won't be going back to this church again. This is the second time that this pastor has made statements that are strange. I also don't like the way he talks. I don't trust him for some reason.

Anyway, if you people that i should report him and ask that he be investigated please let me know. I for one can't stand the amount of corruption in the church today.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), June 24, 2003

Answers

Dear Kev:
It's understandable you'd question what the priest's intent is. You should remain in the parish for now. Pay real attention to all that he says. Not searching for dirt. Just to inform yourself.

It well could be his reference to the gays is not a sign of spiritual decay. Perhaps it is; but don't assume this.

He may mean simply we are all children of God. We mustn't fail any other child of God in Christian charity. Not to say we'll condone a sin of any kind, much less depravity.

But we ought to regard the sinner with compassion. Not as his judges.

If this is the pastor's drift, he's all right. You must figure it out for yourself. God wants you to be a mature, thinking man. Not a child. We have to confront society's problems, not run away from them. --A homosexual is worth trying to liberate; to save from his sins.

Jesus Christ allowed lepers to come right up to Him. He took their hand. (Matt 8, :1-4) Everyone else in the world considered them unclean; next to Caca, Drekk, Shiddt!!!!

Not Our Lord. He wanted to save them all. Just remember to imitate Him. He loves us all, Kev!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 24, 2003.

Hi.

What is the difference if one sins a different sin from another's?

Mortal sin is mortal sin, isn't it?

Or, should homosexuality be isolated from murder and so on?

I believe that once we begin to put another's sin as being worse than our own, we go against God's teachings. Jesus visited the worsed sinners because they were in need of His grace. The priest in question is merely following the same teachings, as we should too.

rod.. .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 24, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Kev.
Please notice what the new Catechism of the Catholic Church says on the subject of homosexuality, and evaluate these official, reliable Church teachings against what you heard the priest say:

"2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Kev, I suggest that you speak to this priest and remind him of what he said. As him to explain what he meant. Maybe he will say things that are exactly like the words of the Catechism -- accepting a chaste person with same-sex attraction, but rejecting the sin of an unchaste person. But maybe he will say things that are against the Catechism -- for example, that he believes in same-sex "marriage," or that practicing homosexuals are not sinning and can receive Communion. Please give the priest the benefit of the doubt (unless/until he blunders in talking to you).

God bless you.
John
PS: You said that this priest referred to "straight or gay." You should know that the word "gay" (among homosexuals) refers to those folks who are "acting out" their disordered inclination and who are activists for social change (to approve of their perversion). According to clergy and therapists who work with troubled people, the ones who are trying to live a chaste life (letting God help them resist temptation) do not want to be called "gay" (or "lesbian").

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 24, 2003.

The pastor talking about accepting gay people into the church is nothing compared to some other things that go on. Did you know there is actually a church for only gays?

-- teepo (teepo@affd.com), June 24, 2003.

eugene,

there is a big difference between lepers and homosexuals -your continued use of this 'comparison' is misleading -Jesus accepts ALL who repent AND does NOT accept sin -- the SIN is the issue regarding homosexuals -leprosy is not a sin...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), June 24, 2003.

John is right on in his gentle but straight forward approach to this. The catechism is crystal clear in providing for us the facts and right attitudes towards this issue, and towards our homosexual brethren. I use this term 'brethren' loosely, as humans we are brethren and all deserve love and respect. No one is exempt from the opportunity for repentance and restoration, God is patient with us.

It is such a predominant issue, one that runs into emotionally deep realms for all of us, much like the abortion issue. Especially so for those of us who have had abortions and are repentant, or for those of us who have homosexual family members and are dealing with attaining the balance of mercy and yet righteousness. God is calling us to really acquire His mind in all this.

It's not easy to maintain a merciful and understanding stance; people are indeed struggling with their own sexuality, it's a rampant epidemic of identity crisis that needs delicate tending to.. and yet at the same time having a 'heads up' look-out for the enemy who has gotten his foot in the door with a big lie telling society it's o.k. to live the gay lifestyle. We need to pray for a keen discernment in dealing with this.

I would wait and listen longer, and if you sense the pastor doesn't quite line up with the teaching of the Church, make an appointment, present it to him, and express your concern. If you are called to do this work, God will provide you with other people to back you up, we are not quite as effective when we act on our own. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), June 25, 2003.

Don't they talk about the four last things anymore? Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell. Or is that not politically correct?

-- Festus (Wonderboy@home.com), June 25, 2003.

Who is "they"? The Holy Catholic Church still has plenty to say about death, judgement, heaven and hell, and is unconcerned with political correctness, which is why it is the designated arch-enemy of the politically correct.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 25, 2003.

Among St. Peter Damian's most famous writings is his lengthy treatise, Letter 31, the Book of Gomorrah [Liber Gomorrhianus], containing the most extensive treatment and condemnation by any Church Father of clerical pederasty and homosexual practices. [2] His manly discourse on the vice of sodomy in general and clerical homosexuality and pederasty in particular, is written in a plain and forthright style that makes it quite readable and easy to understand.

In keeping with traditional Church teachings handed down from the time of the Apostles he holds that all homosexual acts are crimes against Nature and therefore crimes against God Who is the author of Nature.

It is also refreshing to find an ecclesiastic whose first and primary concern in the matter of clerical sexual immorality is for God's interests, not man's, especially with regard to homosexuality in clerical ranks. Also, his special condemnation of pederastic crimes by clergy against young boys and men [including those preparing for holy orders] made over nine hundred years ago, certainly tends to undermine the excuse of many American bishops and Cardinals who claim that they initially lacked specific knowledge and psychological insights by which to assess the seriousness of clerical pederastic crimes.

Maybe Cardinal Law and the current American Bishops conference should have read this. They appear to be at least 900 years behind the times. And this in the age of enlightenment in the Church.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), June 25, 2003.

Dear Daniel:
I realise exactly what you're saying. Leprosy isn't contracted using our faculty of free will. Even so, I believe the parallel is a good one. I'm glad you demand a rationale.

A leper in Jesus' day had the ''unclean'' stigma about him which everybody saw for filth. He/she couldn't hide it; in fact, he was forced by the Law to announce it publicly. And nobody would touch him. He was an outcast to the world.

Homosexuals would like to be socially acceptable. My feeling is, the homosexual will never overcome the stigma for certain. This makes him feel like an outcast. We know his degrading sin effectively separates him from his neighbor. Just as a gruesome affliction separated lepers in Christ's.

In this thread I wasn't comparing sinners and lepers from society's point of view. It's from Christ's. Christ would not join in society's disgust; nor refuse a soul in pain. He loved even lepers when no one else would. You will not be learning this from me..I have to think you already knew.

Our faith should be great enough to inspire us, as difficult as it may be, never to ostracize another human being as if he was dirt. And many of us do just that, as regards the ''gay'' subculture. We are sickened by it; as the people of Jerusalem were sickened by lepers. Except for Our Lord Jesus.

I explain my feelings here knowing even the most devout Catholic is guilty sometimes, of mocking and belittling homosexuals. Many of us never consider him/her as equals. We ought to remember Christ's example.

Let me say lastly, , stressing this unchristian attitude in all of us, I have NOT declared any favor for same-sex marriages, nor even ''gay rights'' as they're commonly demagogued. I simply think no one should ever hate gays & treat them unjustly. We hate the sin. Only because it offends God; as all our own sins offend Him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 25, 2003.

Is it really too hard to mind your own business? Does the homosexual community legitimately interfere with your everyday life so much that you feel the need to actively persecute its members? Honestly. I hope it makes you feel just great to victimize such a defenseless group of people who I'm sure are more than happy to leave you alone. You should be ashamed of yourself. Hitler also like to persecute homosexuals, and was himself a very intolerent person. Look at all the good that comes from hatemongering.

-- Bobby Smith (not_234@yahoo.com), June 25, 2003.

Hi Bobby.

All sin eventually becomes our "business" when it eventually and inevitably affects us all. We pay the price socially, economically, politically, and you name it. The world suffers because of sin. I don't want my children paying the price of immorality as it gradually creeps into our lives.

You wouldn't want a drunk to run over your child, right? It is a sin to get drunk. So, it is our "business" to know and control a drunk. Now, think about what Scriptures tells us about immorality and homosexuality. I don't want my children learning that those sins are socially or politically acceptable.

I could probably see your idea if those who sin do it hiding from the eyes of society, but when it comes to "gay" rights, that movement is an "in your face" battle that has no regards for the sinful impressions left on the minds of children. Obviously, the "gay" population does not obey God's will.

Would you leave an adulterer alone? Or, would you make an effort to bring him into the gospel and have him repent?

I think that if we are able we should bring a sinner to repentanc

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 25, 2003.

Dear Bobby,

A sincere concern for the salvation of persons who have chosen a path leading to certain destruction is not "hatemongering". In fact, anything less than total condemnation of such a choice - NOT of the person making it - would be equivalent to hatred, since love demands concern for one another, and action to prevent harm to another. "Live and let live" is apathy, not love.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 25, 2003.

I would add; tolerance is apathy, not love. Jesus did not say "Tolerate your neighbor". Theresa

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), June 26, 2003.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Homosexuality is against natural law as we now know it.

The argument is that homsexual tendencies are genetic. I have strong doubts about that but, hypothetically,if that were proven conclusively, I might have to rethink that opinion.

John G. is right in his definition of the term gay. Infortunately, in a lot of people's minds, gay is just a politically correct term for homosexual.

As far as reporting the priest, forget it. The priest did nothing wrong. I'm sick and tired of the attitude that has infected the laity that the problems with the Church are the parish priests.

The parish priests are the backbone of the Church. 99.9% of these men, human as we all are, are trying to be holy, good shepards. Quit trying to find fault with these good men.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 26, 2003.

Comparing a homosexual to a drunk driver killing a child is both illogical and presumptuous, and trying to make that comparison is a serious discredit to your reasoning abilities. In NO WAY does homosexuality threaten the safety of children. Drunk driving is a choice - homosexuality is not. One is able to choose to not drive because they've been drinking. One is not able to choose their sexual orientation.

Every day is heterosexual pride day. Every day homosexuals are physically assaulted, sometimes fatally, simply because they are homosexual. These "in-your-face" demonstrations are not an effort to instill homosexual feelings in the heterosexual population, nor are they defiant antagonism meant only to stir up fights. They are merely an effort to empower themselves and raise awareness of their rights as human beings, just as we have respective days of recognition for any other minority group. You must admit that straight white catholic/christians have the most power in our society, and all these pride demonstrations are doing is helping to shift the power balance of society so everyone can eventually be equal.

If someone has denounced their affiliation with the church, then doesn't that mean they have denounced their affiliation with concepts of heaven, hell, sinning, etc? So to try and convince someone that their sins will need to be repayed later in life if they don't believe it is just as "in-your-face" as any other demonstration.

I have a feeling that the majority of people who are actively homophobic are over-compensating for their own latent homosexual tendancies.

Religion is ONLY an individual choice. In NO WAY do you have the right to label someone a sinner and persecute he or she for their beliefs when your beliefs are equally subjective.

-- Bobby (not_234@yahoo.com), June 26, 2003.

homo-phobic is a term that is used incorrectly.

To be homo-phobic would mean to hear homosexual.

One can disagree with something with out fearing it.

I have no fear of homosexuals. I do disagree with immoral behavior. Which brings up a point -- If homosexuality is not chosen, why not emphasize the main stream, one person, one partner, rather than the stereotypical free for all, orgy type lifestyle.

God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 26, 2003.

What's so immoral? Do you tape television shows? Have you ever borrowed a tape from your friend? Have you ever played a CD at a block party? These are all forms of theft.

Homosexuality of individuals is not your concern. Maybe focus your energy on building a park somewhere for underpriveleged children.

By the way, homophobia may not have correct grammatical roots (phobia=fear), however its common use as a term describing active negativity towards homosexuals or homosexuality would definitely affirm its status as, at least, a colloquialism. Therefore it's not incorrect, and is definitely part of the language.

-- Bobby (not_342@yahoo.com), June 26, 2003.

Homo-phobia is a one-sided colloquialism at best.

I stand by my statement. No fear factor here. **************************************************************** What the Catechism states:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, 141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." 142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

***************************************************************** GOD BLESS.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 26, 2003.

QUOTING THE BIBLE DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR POSITION

You have to stop hiding behind the bible when you choose to ignore (and support) the persecution of entire groups of people. The people being hurt are real - the bible is a book. The only reason you are choosing to be offended by homsexuality is becuase their demonstrations are taking the focus off of the church (which lately seems to have more than its fair share of immorality). What's more immoral? To raise a child to be close-minded and critical, or to raise a loving child who is truly caring? Hate breeds hate. Your quoting biblical passages serves no purpose but to limit your objectivity and credibility. THE BIBLE IS NOT NECESSARILY THE TRUTH.

-- Bobby (not_234@yahoo.com), June 26, 2003.

Dear Bobby:
The stock arguments homosexuals use to please themselves don't change obvious facts.

All sin is self- serving. It makes no difference if you accept correction from the Church or not. You are polluting your own body and you are casting aside your immortal soul, when you indulge in selfish vices.

We don't have to call that religion. Or sin, even. Logic will tell you, it is self-destruction. It is reducing your life itself to maggot life.

I'm sure you'll think these statements are not binding; all just persecution of entire groups --of a preferred life-style. Yet, you entered the forum. No one followed you home to criticize you.

And, homophobes who show you the sin honestly may or may not be reacting to ''their own homosexual tendencies.'' --I have plenty of cause to reject that premise. But, so what? This could even be true.

Homosexual depravity is heterophobic, isn't it? You seem to be a heterophobe, Bobby. And, yes; many heterosexuals should mind their own sins. I certainly will. But we just say honestly, examine your conscience. You are not going to heaven if you fail to repent your sins.

You have no faith in heaven? Or in God? That's the reply we would expect from a maggot sinking into the rotten road-kill. Not a grown human being. Not a good man. You came here. You heard the warning. It's God warning you, through His Church. Examine your conscience. Stop polluting your body and soul.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 26, 2003.

Dear Bobby,

I raised my children to be loving and truly caring, and also closed-minded and critical regarding immorality. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are mutually dependent. To be closed-minded and critical without charity is mere legalism. To be caring without concern for the objective facts is mindless emotionalism. A healthy approach to life demands a genuine concern for others, within the framework of objective truth. To emphasize one to the exclusion of the other is mentally unsound, emotionally destructive, factually dishonest, and in the final anlysis will be spiritually catastrophic.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 26, 2003.

I cut and pasted from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church not the Bible.

The Catechism is a teaching aid for the Church to help ensure uniformity in the true teaching of the Church, so we don't go too far into left field.

Read this again, from the Catechism:

"They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."

Harm done to another is wrong, period.

No one should condone it.

Sex for selfish, sinful reasons is wrong, no matter who does it.

I say again. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 26, 2003.

Bobby.

I wish my children to grow up as healthy loving people should. I wish them to get married and have children of their own. Homosexuallity sets out to destroy all of that. You do not believe in man with woman and woman with man so, you are going against God. It is you who should leave the heterosexual world and not molest them.

Can you say that you are following God's will, Bobby?

A drunk driver can ruin many lives just the same as the "gay" movement can destroy the natural family that God has provided for us. But, not only "gay" sins, all sin can destroy; we just happen to be talking about homosexuallity.

And, we are still talking about the sin, not the sinner.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 26, 2003.

In General, especially to liberally leaning catholics like J.PL.

If your loving the sinner does harm, especially if the sinner has a personal victim and it harms the victim, then you are choosing to partake in the sin of the sinner and have no justification for loving in the way you choose. This is ignored by most catholics especially the socially liberal. They are not thoughtful enough to realize that every idea has a consequence as does every act and they, usually, reject responsibility for the consequences of what their loving, individually and corporately, brings, often to the forgotten victim.

Karl

-- KArl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), June 26, 2003.

Look that up in your Catechism, it is there, but rarely utilized.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), June 26, 2003.

I think possibly John meant Hate the sin and not the sinner.-- Love is simply Christian charity, as regards love for the wayward sinner. It commands us to do no violence to the sinner.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 26, 2003.

Bobby,

You should realize that the bible is a source of truth. Even for a non-religious man to say that it isn't is to be foolish and ignorant. There is great wisdom to be found within its pages. The wisdom the Catholic Church professes is millenniums old and is unchanging. How can you say that this wisdom isn't valid? What makes you think that a few years of modern opinion regarding morality can even compare? How can a few modern day activists be more enlightened then this wisdom? They can’t and they are foolish for thinking so.

There is a good reason why so many cultures throughout time and around the world have rejected homosexuality. You should ask yourself this question; why do so many people think it is wrong? If you think hard about this, I truly doubt that you will think it is all based on hatred. There are people that hate homosexuals and that’s clearly wrong. We must never hate people for what they do. Most people that hate gays are just acting out their frustrations for what they feel deep inside is wrong. They know it is wrong, but they can’t articulate the reasons for it. So they act out in defiance of gays through aggression. This is why the Catholic Church is so clear in this matter. It is important for us to understand why homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of god. Without the Church, the rejection of homosexuality is the realization by man that society can become corrupt to the point of it’s own destruction.

Even if you reject the word of God (Jesus) you can’t deny the wisdom of ages past. The morality given to us by previous generations is the only thing that keeps our society from falling apart. Our modern society is built on the fabric of this morality. Fortunately for us most of this morality can be found our laws, and it is why we are strong today. But mankind has not accepted the entire message.

People today seem to think that as time moves forward so does mankind. It would seem to me that only through experience does man ever learn anything. He always learns the hard way; that the word of God really is the truth. But, as time goes on we are slowly rejecting these teachings and changing our laws. Mankind is truly confused!

Truth is that which never changes. The bible never changes, the word of God never changes, and either does love.

I believe that for every gift that god has given us in this world there is equal but perverted form of that gift. Everyone in this world is born more or less susceptible to these perversions. It is our task in life to overcome these challenges no matter how hard they are. For those that have an inclination toward theft, it is your cross not to steal. For those that feel an attraction toward the same sex, it is your cross to be chaste. …

-- k (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), June 26, 2003.

Thanks Eugene for clarifying my position.

Karl, I'm progressive minded on a lot of things. I don't consider myself a stereotypical liberal by any means.

I was trying to point out that homosexuality is by practice a disodered condition. It is against natural law. The Roman Catholic catechism points that out.

We should have compassion for all people.

Sin is sin, no matter how one tries to rationalize it. Sin should not be condoned.

God Bless.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 27, 2003.

Dear People Who Reject God,

Provided that your body is normal and healthy, let's try to figure this one out without bringing God into the issue (because we are playing by your rules here).

Our bodies are designed to reproduce. We have the ability to bring forth life--a baby. Why would we choose not to have a baby? Is it because we feel powerful in controlling to population? Such a feeling would seem rather self-centered and arrogant. But, wouldn't it also be true for those choosing to make babies? Either way, we have the ability.

Do you realize the power and amazement of bringing forth a human into this world? Do you realize the tremendous potential for love you give the child and the love the child would give? Do you realize the eternal continuation of life that has sprung from your seed?

Why wouldn't a person want to be part of life, but instead choose a dead end?

My heart goes out to those couples "wishing" for children, but cannot conceive.

Now for those who do accept God,

One of the most wonderful and beautiful gifts that God has given us is the gift of conception--our children.

Thanks Be to God.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 27, 2003.