Hello everyone. I am new to this forum and have been reading with interest many of the posts over the past week. It has become apparent to me that most of the people posting have been doing so for quite some time, and that most of the time everyone is opposed to each other. It gets quite confusing to figure out who is who and what everyone believes. So are obvious, like David Ortiz, and Alex of many names, but Eugene Chavez, Karl, Carlos, JF Cefik (sp?), Kiwi, Gail, and others I am not sure of. So...where does everyone stand with regards to Catholicism?

Thanks.

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), June 27, 2003

Answers

Forgive me, Mr. Gecik, for misspelling your name.

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), June 27, 2003.

Hi, Thomas,
It seems only fair to ask you how you stand on Catholicism.--???

In the case of our diverse contributors, not all are Catholics, of course. Alex, David Ortiz, Kevin, Jay, and somebody calling him/her self Christian Soldier are non or anti-Catholics. They presume they're in a category of scriptural Christian, or Bible Christian.

I am an orthodox-leaning Catholic. Conservative but not anti-Vatican II. Some, like Emerald, Carlos, Ed and Jake consider themselves the ''real'' Catholics, because they don't support Vatican II or the bishops and Pope. Or, if they support the Pope (practically speaking,) they think he's too liberal. (I think they're crazy, but it's a free country. --Italy is a free country too.) John Gecik, Paul, Gail and Sara usually agree with me & each other. I agree with each when it's something I believe too. With me, you never know, until you try me. Lol! God bless you, welcome. Have fun.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 27, 2003.

Where do I stand? Well, we can start with the Nicene Creed...

I appreciate your response, Eugene. I am more on the Orthodox bent. I will readily admit that I am not a scholar of Church Doctrine nor of The Bible (meaning that I cannot instantaneously come up with 10 verses to support my claim)but I feel I have a devout Faith and Trust in God. I appreciate some of the reforms of Vatican II and absolutely love JPII. I feel priviledged that in my lifetime I was able to hear two future Saints speak - JPII and Mother Theresa. I was also able to see whom I feel is one of the holiest men living today - Father Jozo of Medjugorje. I feel the Church has taken a step backwards by no longer promoting some of the traditional forms of worship, such as Benediction and regular recitation of the Rosary. It is a travesty that many churches no longer offer time for Adoration as it truly draws one close to Christ. I also feel that the Catholic Church could learn a lot from our protestant brethren when it comes to hospitality and openness. These are traits severely lacking, at least here in the South.

Long story short - my faith is built upon my complete Trust in God. I believe there is nothing that we should do without consulting Him first. I believe in the intercession of Saints and the powerful intercession of our Mother Mary. God has always answered my prayers and their intercessions on my behalf. God has always brought the right people, places, and things into my life when I needed them. His Will has taken me to a lot of places I did not expect, or at the time understand, but it is well worth the journey.

Thomas Merton sums it up well. Check out his prayer if you haven't already.

http://www.mertonfoundation.org/merton.php3?page=prayer.ext

Pax et Bonum

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), June 27, 2003.

"Or, if they support the Pope (practically speaking,) they think he's too liberal. (I think they're crazy, but it's a free country. --Italy is a free country too.)"

That is interesting, considering that the current Pope, who has repeatedly expressed his devotion to Mary and the Rosary, and has reaffirmed male-only priests, among other things, to me is far more conservative than liberal.

I am curious as to how the Pope is liberal.

Pax et Bonum

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), June 27, 2003.

You're very right. His world view is sometimes liberal. His religion is ultra conservative. He lives a saintly life, and is very forgiving. He wishes to draw the lost ones back into the love of Jesus Christ in His Church.

Some of the bickering ones who hate the Mass in vernacular, and some styles of worship they find vulgar, openly claim John Paul II is taking us to ruin. They can't bear how our Church is now. But I keep faith in Christ's promises. Also in the vigilance of the Holy Spirit. I disagree emphatically with these elitists.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 27, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Thomas.
Welcome to the forum. Eugene has given you a pretty accurate "quickie" analysis of several recently-posting forum regulars. There are many more regulars whom you will meet if you stick around, most of whom haven't been posting since you started "lurking" this week.

If I were allowed to give you just one piece of advice, Thomas, it would be this ...
Beware of people who pretend to be "more Catholic than the pope." Among all the ambassadors of hell who visit the forum, these fallen-away Catholics (including folks who consider the pope too "liberal") are the most dangerous to your soul. Until the Moderator bans them, they will try every word-game imaginable to lure you into schism, dissent, and even heresy. Please avoid them.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 27, 2003.

Don't forget me! :) Heh, I know I'm not nearly as regular as some folks, but you know how it goes--life doesn't wait for you to finish your response to the latest Sola Scriptura arguments on Greenspun.

But, yeah, if you want to be sloppy about it, you have the three most vocal groups: the simple faithful (JFK, Eugene, Gail, myself, and others), and two groups who would love nothing more than to see every thread devolve into shouting drivel: the Protestant trolls and Tridentine trolls.

However, do not forget that we have other prett good non-Catholic folks, in particular "non-Catholic Christian," among others, who offer their points of view while respecting the forum rules and decorum.

And also note the wide variety of opinion and personality amongst orthodox-thinking Catholics; we can get into lively arguments ourSELVES, thank ou very much.

But most importantly, we have a lot of average joes and janes who come from lots of different backgrounds and have honest questions about real problems; sadly these are the ones who (ironically) get pushed into the dark corners of Greenspun, usually by trolls (and partly as a consequence of local stalwarts who can't be satisfied to just laugh and leave).

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), June 27, 2003.

Hello Thomas

Welcome to the Forum. I’m a Catholic who loves my faith and the Church. I hate (perhaps I should say intensely dislike :-) ) the term Roman Catholic. This term was originally used by Protestants to distinguish Catholics faithful to the Pope from Anglicans, who claimed to be Catholic. It was originally used in a derogatory way, just as the term Pape was used here. Anyway, I digress. That’s normal for me too, to start writing about something then to go off on a tangent!

I’m not particularly well educated in Faith matters, but I like to read and can look up scripture quotes and passages from the Catechism! I believe that living out our faith is a lifelong learning experience.

I’m pro-Vatican 11. I think the Holy Father is a living saint, and have immense respect for him. I’m particularly impressed by his introduction of the Luminous Mysteries. I love Mass in the vernacular, receive the Eucharist in my hand, and say Holy Spirit, as opposed to Holy Ghost.

I like a diverse range of music in church, from organs and choirs to guitars, flutes and drums. I’ve attended small intimate Masses in tiny rooms with six people and a priest, and large Masses, e.g. an Episcopal Ordination concelebrated with Cardinals, Bishops and 150 priests, and enjoyed them all equally.

I believe in Ecumenism, inter-religious dialogue and that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and has Apostolic Succession. I believe in the infallibility of the Pope.

If you can categorise me into what kind of Catholic I am, I would be eternally grateful!!

God bless

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), June 27, 2003.

Hi Thomas,

After being in Protestant churches for some 20 years, I am finally home -- the Catholic Church. My journey was quite an amazing thing! I never thought in my wildest dreams of ever even attending a mass. Never even crossed my mind.

But I asked the Lord to put where He wanted me. I told Him I would go wherever THAT was, and I guess He took me seriously. It took 2 years to complete my journey from beginning to end (near as I can tell). It probably started a long long time ago (the unseen hand), but anyway here I am. I actually had to quit my job so I could study the Catholic faith. I started reading the Church Fathers, and Uh oh, I was in trouble then!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 27, 2003.

Thomas Arny's one of those trolls. Occasionally people (or maybe just one person) pop in and use lots of false names, and just post crap; they impersonate, or sometimes they just make up any old name and use it to lob long boring strings of flatulence against any random target. Just one of the hazards; it comes with the territory.

But actually, I liked Gail's and Sarah's posts so much, I thought I'd write in the same vein.

I've just completed my third year in the seminary, so I've learned a lot, but mostly I'd just learned how little I know. This whole religion thing is HUGE! Books and books and books. Apparently, lots of great thinkers, saints and sinners alike, have much to say about God. I'm fascinated by it all, even though I could only consume a small sliver of it in my lifetime.

My first principle is that I'm loyal to God, Church, and conscience. Simple faith! So you can put me pretty squarely with the likes of Eugene, Gail, JFG, Chris Butler, etc. No cute theory or theological movement will ever make me lose sight of my spiritual family, the Church, or to twist or reject the wisdom of her shepherds.

But I have my little peculiarities. I'm pretty non-confrontational, especially when there's no progress to be seen or expected. However, I'm developing a taste for counter-culture and deflation, and sometimes I target (what I perceive as) ephemerality whether it comes from attackers or defenders of the faith. Then again, sometimes I like to wallow in my own shallowness, too! But that's a secret-- nobody's supposed to know that I can be an idiot. :)

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), June 27, 2003.

Hi Thomas.

I've been called Thomas. My name is rod, though.

I have to see it, touch it, smell it, and even "gnaw" on it before I finally get it, or so people believe of me. I'm almost a "true" Catholic, whatever that means anymore. But, this is a wonderful forum to be part of (am I?) for answers to questions and an observation of peoples' thoughts, as well as the "Church".

Be ready to be offended, affirmed, enlightened, and amused. I hope that you learn more about your own faith.

rod.. . . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 27, 2003.

You will also run across our sweet Ms. Theresa, who is so Christ- like, she makes me cringe sometimes at my own unholiness. She is gracious and charming and THOROUGHLY Catholic, and always seems to pop in at just the right time, ie., usually when there is too much heat in the kitchen!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 27, 2003.

Greetings Thomas: I persinale beilive according to Jesus Christ that he is the way the truth and the life. Truly eternal life is a gift not by works that a man may boast. If you want to know why hostilty arises read the word of God, as they hated Jesus they will mock his followers. I follow the word of God and do not need traditions to sanctify me, for it the Lord who does this. I pray that you seek Jesus for the answers and not man, study Gods word. If you desire to know the Lord call unto Jesus and be born the Lord shall open your eyes. God Bless in Jesus name

-- Jesusis thewya (trusthisfreedom316@yahoo.com), June 27, 2003.

Yo Thomas, I'm Scott and I post here sometimes too. I am an ordinary Catholic with an ordinary faith. I know more than the average Catholic but not much. I love the pope and will be attending WYD in 2005 to hopefully see him again. I am one of those Catholics that wishes he had a better faith but it still needs growth. But then again, how's can't? I believe that the church has some problems but I believe that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church in the right direction. I expand my faith through reading and prayer but it takes me a long time because I am slow of reading and short of memory. I try to post what I know but I am often wrong. But that is why there are other great Catholics on this forum to set me straight. These are wonderful people even though I argue with them sometimes. God Bless.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), June 28, 2003.

"JF Gecik ... is actually the most insane of all other sick types on this forum." [Thomas Arny]

Thanks, "Arny" (your latest of 150 aliases). This time your post was so ridiculous that it actually made me laugh!

Thomas (i.e., dzomba), I know you read a good message from Sara. But then did you see a later post that was allegedly from Sara -- the one that said, "I giggle again!" ...?
You'll see those words here and there at the forum, and you'll know that they were not posted by Sara, but by her impersonator -- a toddler who amuses no one by his obsession with this account from Genesis 18:

One of [the three men] said to Abraham, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son." Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years, and Sarah had stopped having her womanly periods. So Sarah laughed to herself and said, "Now that I am so withered and my husband is so old, am I still to have sexual pleasure?" But the Lord said to Abraham: "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Shall I really bear a child, old as I am?' Is anything too marvelous for the Lord to do? At the appointed time, about this time next year, I will return to you, and Sarah will have a son." Because she was afraid, Sarah dissembled, saying, "I didn't laugh." But he said, "Yes you did."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 28, 2003.

Hi Thomas, Please let me introduce myself. I grew up in a Catholic home and attended Catholic school through the 8th grade. I served as an alter boy and lector. I considered becoming a priest at that time.

My parents divorced when I was in high school and the family wandered somewhat. My father became involved in a non-denominational church and I followed. My father always had a deep faith.

I have been exposed to the Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, and Charismatic Episcopal Churches. I am pretty ecumenical minded. I see a lot more similarities than some people, Catholic or protestant.

In early 1999, I started attending mass again. I had not been to the Catholic Church in many years. I felt a deep need to come home. God was working on me, I believe, for what was to come.

In Nov 99, I was diagnosed with kidney cancer and had my right kidney removed. When I was first diagnosed, I was scared to death. I went to my parish priest and we talked a lot. He has become one of my best friends by the way. We did a lot of crying and praying. Well, he prayed, I cried.

I had my surgery on Dec. 19, 1999. On Dec. 23rd, I had a dream in which I saw twinkling lights off to the left side of my field of vision. I remember consciously thinking, "Those are cheap special effects".

I then heard a voice. The voice can best be described as neither male nor female, authoritative (great authority), but very gentle. The voice said, "Through intercession, your life has been extended".

I then awoke.

I can easily dismiss the dream as a dream, but I can't dismiss the feeling that I had when I awoke. Awesome is the only word that I've been able to come up with. I have never felt that way before or since. I've never had an experience like that. Never would have imagined it. I didn't tell anyone about it for several days. I didn't have the words and thought that everyone would think that I was crazy.

I got out of the hospital on Christmas day.

I happened to talk to a psychologist, who is a nun, one time and asked her what I should think about the dream. She very calmly said, "You had a religious experience, people have them all the time, they just don't want to believe it."

So, that is my mini "road to Damascus story".

I have been involved in my parish since then. I have studied and will continue to study the faith. I have changed some views over time, as my base of knowledge has grown. I'm not afraid to change and I'll admit when I'm wrong. This forum has helped me a great deal.

I consider myself a progressive Catholic. I feel deeply that the love of God through Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit transcends everything.

All the doctrine, dogmas and rubrics should be secondary.

I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church has, as close as is humanly possible, the ideals and fullness of truth.

Some priests took advantage of the spirit of Vatican II and went out into left field so some issues. Vatican II was both needed and wanted within the Church. Pope John XXIII is one of my heros. He was like John Paul II, a conservative in faith, but a progessive to the world.

As I said earlier, I consider myself progressive. I would like to see the discipline of celibacy made optional, so that priests could marry if they wanted. I think it is very holy for a priest to remain single (celibant) for the good of the people and the Church, but I have seen how isolated and lonely a priests life can be at times.

I think women should be ordained as deacons or maybe a lesser title, but with formal recognition. If women can teach Theology, why not formally recognize them.

I do not believe women should be priests. MEN need priests as role models.

Deacons should be allowed to administer Anointing of the Sick, (with a modified form of reconciliation) -- to take some of the work load off the priests.

I will defend parish priests to the end. I think they are overworked, and under appeciated. We take them for granted. The rotten ones need to be kicked out, but 99.9 precent are good men.

I hope this is not too much information.

I wrote this to help introduce myself and in hope that the regulars will better know me and understand my motives and perspectives.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 28, 2003.

I forgot to add about my health. I have had no evidence of disease since my surgery. I am now at yearly checkups and couldn't be better.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 28, 2003.

Hi John.

Are you also a musician? I am.

Your honesty is comforting one that I can relate to. I too have been around many different denominations and can see many similarities. I simply have this sense of returning to my birth Church. I just can't understand many things about the Church; this is why I'm hanging around here.

rod... . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 28, 2003.

Rod, I love music but I'm not a musician.

Little bit of a poet, though.

Here's one I wrote after my surgery:

The Battle

Unannounced and unwelcome, it came to the door. It was wicked and horrible, at my body it tore. It dragged me, screaming, into the night. It was horrid and ugly - a terrible sight. It beat me and cursed me. It spat in my face. It caused exhaustion like a terrible race. The battle was deafening, but in a wondrous tone, The Son whispered softly,"You are not alone." To the struggle came soldiers all dressed in white. With scalpels as swords, they took up the fight. The cancer retreated. The battle was won. It happened, of course, with the help of the Son. Victories are won, though battles have toll. Bodies are harmed, but never the soul! ******************************************************** I love to fish. Here's one just for grins:

The Spirit of the Gulf Coast Fishermen

To the coast we went on a fishing trip. An outing of fun we couldn't skip.

With rods and reels and boxes of tack, Determination, we didn't lack.

We searched and looked. We cast and threw. We used many lures. We cussed a few.

But, specks and reds and flounder were few. They wouldn't hit on the old or new.

We heard some stories of the missed fishes size. Some we think were out and out lies.

We headed for home with only this rhyme. But you just wait, WE'LL GET 'EM NEXT TIME.

God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), June 28, 2003.

John P,
I thank God that you caught the cancer in time and that it has not returned. Now if only we can heal your "progressivism" ... ( ;-p)
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 28, 2003.

What wonderful posts! And JFG, that is quite a remarkable connection you made. How did you come by it? Or do you just know your Bible more than a proper Catholic should? :) (that's a joke).

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), June 28, 2003.

Hi.

There came a time when I had a tremendous fear of dying. Now, I have a sense of completion of this life and beginning the "real" life that God has provided for us all.

What will it be like to leave this life and enter the new eternal life with Jesus in Heaven? We shouldn't fear dying because it is only the path we take to be in Heaven. Sometimes it is easier said than believed; sometimes it really is easy to believe.

rod.... ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 28, 2003.

Hi Thomas,

I just found this forum, too, and I really enjoy reading the posts. (I just wish my Internet connection were faster, so I didn't have to wait two minutes for those really long threads to show up... Or is that the server?)

Anyway, I'm fully behind the Church and the Pope, as are most of my friends and family. Actually, I think I've met more people who are "anti-Catholic" or "anti-Vatican-II" here on this forum than in person. The ratio seems skewed. I guess the only people who stay on are those obsessed with their beliefs. ;)

On new and dangerous topics (ecumenism vs. evangelism, the secret of Fatima, etc), I tend to keep quiet. I figure that wiser people are working on it, and everything will eventually come out in the wash. I prefer to read Chesterton, Aquinas and Dawson rather than more modern writers- after all, if we've got two thousand years of experience, it seems a pity not to draw from them.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 28, 2003.

Hi Thomas.

I'm one of the people that the above people detest. They look with scorn upon me and others of similiar type.

In their eyes, I am a heretic, a dissenter, servant of Beelzebubba, anti-Catholic, Protestant, schismatic, or today's special.

The truth of the matter is that I try my very level best to uphold the Catholic Faith whole and undefiled.

Other than that, I have vices like all the rest in this forum.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 28, 2003.

Thanks to all for the wonderful posts. Too bad I never got to read Arny's...must have been removed before I got back on.

I am always moved by the incredible stories of faith, especially those who have come back because of them. My personal favorite is that of a priest I knew in South Carolina who first received his calling to be a priest in a dream where he envisioned himself in a mirror dressed as a Catholic priest. The kicker...at the time, he was an Episcopalian!! He is the only priest I have ever seen say every Mass with a smile on his face.

Just to expand on my beliefs a little (based on what some of you have written) I was raised Catholic and attended Cathoic schools through high school. Then I went away to college and fell away from the church somewhat. At 25 the Blessed Mother brought me back thanks to a visit from Our Lady of Guadalupe and the incredible smell of roses where there isn't a flower to be seen. I have never been to Medjugorje but my life has been changed thanks to the stories of the people I know who went, and how the trip changed their lives. I was very much involved in my Church in South Carolina, but since moving to Georgia almost two years ago, it has been a struggle to find a niche in my Church here; they are a very closed community that has been through a lot the last few years. Yet I know God will show me the way.

I pray a lot to St. Therese of Liseux; she has helped give me confidence in my faith journey, and in my personal life as well. My son was baptized on her feast day, and I cannot think of a better patroness for him.

And Alex, I do believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I place my entire trust in Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Trinity that has led me on my journey of faith, through the Holy Catholic Church.

Pax et Bonum

Thomas

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), June 28, 2003.

Thomas

God Bless! I am one of the few that is not likened! I was told that I write too much, but sometimes I have a need to give ample evidence to prove a point. I grew up in the Catholic faith and as I got older I had no interest or perhaps something drew me away. I always grew up believing in God but didn't really know the God of the Bible because I never had any desire to read the Bible.

Years later, the Lord's hand was heavy upon me. Nothing wasn't going right in my life. A Muslim almost converted me, maybe because I started to become spiritual. But I didn't even know enough of my own faith to compare with his teachings. That was when I stopped at my tracks and asked God to guide me. God didn't answer me instantly but gradually my hunger intensified for the truth. For some reason my laziness stopped me from reading the Bible and going back to my catholic church.

But the peculiar thing was I kept running into "Born Again" Christians. But instead of turning them away I began drilling them with questions about the Bible. I couldn't understand what the difference was between a Born Again believer and a Catholic. And from my knowledge it is that a Born Again Believer is one who goes through this tranformation. In a sense Catholics and all denominations are all Christians with the same source BOOK called the BIBLE, but give themselves a title! I have no title, I am one of God's Elect.

So if I was to get my answers I needed to go straight to the Bible the one source. "the WORD became flesh" The Bible is our LORD speaking to us. Finally when I forced myself to read the Bible, BOY I tell you, I couldn't put it down (literally). Every spare time I had my head was buried in the book! I couldn't understand why this was happening to me. I kept it to myself because I was embarrassed in what my family would think. None of them read the Bible or go to church but they are proud to be catholics.

I admit in the beginning I found the Bible very difficult to understand but as I kept reading it I needed to know more and more. I had a lot of questions in my head. But this great fear of God came over me. I started to break and made adjustments in my life. My first question was, why didn't the Catholic Church teach me about this God? The God of the Bible is different from what the Churches teach. (I then checked out other denominations but I was getting bad vibes so I left)

It seems that all churches I have tried teach half of a Gospel. God tells us we must teach everything in the Bible. Don't let it lose its "salty-ness"! We must teach Hell and damnation and the Love of Christ. How are we to understand the Love of God if we do not teach the wrath of God first. Half of a Gospel is a lie! These are false ministries that do this. Here this is what God tells us in:

Ezekial:3:17 "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

So this is my testimony and now supernaturally God is slowly giving me understanding of the Bible. I like to listen to any Christians teach, but once they begin to ignore some of the scriptures, that's a red flag! But I try to be patient. So if you want to give me a title, just call me an Ambassador of the LORD Jesus Christ. I don't take any credit for God saving me because I am a filthy sinner who deserves to go to Hell. Any tiny bit of righteousness I have is only their because it is God who wills me to do good! Any faith I have is the faith of Christ. My faith is the size of a mustard seed!

I LOVE to do the will of God and follow His lawbook "the Bible" my only authority, not because I am trying to earn merrits or get myself to heaven, because I LOVE Christ who died for me and has given me a new resurrected soul where I never want to sin again! But because my flesh is still under bondage and will be glorified at the last day, I am always in conflict. Their is a war going on inside my head. But God has given me ample evidense in my life that I got saved and the Spirit is guiding me to all truth.

I am far from perfect, but some evidencence in my life of becoming saved is, that righteousness comes very natural to me. I do not have to force myself not to curse or steal or lie or even crave a drink of alcohol. (I can't tell you how powerful this is) I say this without boasting but to be a wittness for my LORD that He is for real!

I tell you the truth, God speaks in parables and the entire Bible is in parables. If God is not giving you eyes to see and ears to hear, you will not understand the deep spiritual meanings of the scriptures. It will be a mystery for the unsaved. May God guide you to all truth and please test every Spirit Brother!!!!

May the Lord richly Bless you....Peace

-- Christian Soldier (Embasador333@yahoo.com), June 29, 2003.

Good morning and happy Lord's Day everyone. What a refreshing thread this is, thanks, Thomas. Do you know what you caused? You brought out the gift of everyone here,your presence caused us to come forth, to introduce ourselves, to present our testimonies, but there was something very innocent and nonpretentious about them. What a sweet spirit that is here. There's no ego, just love.

John Placette your testimony is wonderful. The Lord has really worked in your life. I believe He'll continue, He takes so much responsibility for souls that are sincerely seeking Him.

I sense we all take a risk by posting here, and it was said 'the ones who've remained here are', I don't remember the exact words, but basically must 'really believe, to remain.' Amen to that! We are on a Catholic website, amen amen, and we are faithful to the Church, and defend Her and Her teachings given by Jesus Christ Himself for us. And we do that in our everyday lives, not just on this forum. Many of us would die rather then deny the gift He has given us in Eucharist,our holy fathers the popes,the great intercession of our Mother and His,our family in the communion of saints,the great attitude of mercy toward sinners the Church extends, etc.

However, we walk a fine line,balancing our Catholic practice with love and joy in the faith of our non-catholic friends. I've learned a tremendous amount of practical things from non-catholic Christian authors, some wonderful things that have catapulted me along in my walk with Jesus that most Catholic priests wouldn't know about, let alone preach on. I think as we've become more secure in Her, the Catholic Church that is, we take less offense to the ignorant statements about Her by some non-Catholics ,and are actually able to glean knowledge from the ones whom the Holy Spirit has decided to impart things to. We can't deny that.

And so those who persecute us and just plain annoy us{those nasty impersonators}really can't touch us, can they?

Anyway, Thomas,I too welcome you. Any community, even a cyber one like this, takes years to get to know and have a certain unity form. We may argue at times, but there is an underlying love and bond here between most of us {if I may presume I'm part of it}. I suppose it's up to you to discern and pray, and see what God would say to you through it all.

As stated before, we wade our way through some impostors who try and throw us off, but they become obviously evident eventually. Hey Emerald, quit nay-saying yourself, maybe I'm naive,I've never sensed any deep anymosity towards you. Gail I love you too and your posts are clear cut, right on and you are an AWOG!!!!! [awesome woman of God!!!]

Let's hear some more testimonies... "they conquered him by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony".... Rev. 12:11.. Theresa

-- Theresa (RodnTee4Jesus@aol.com), June 29, 2003.

To "Christian soldier"... dear one, the Catholic Church GAVE you your bible, the Catholic Church dispenses the Holy Spirit Who gives you the zeal with which you read it. The Catholic Church would give you love, wisdom, and strength to know you are not the Elect,and to know you don't know more then God. True Christianity does not condescend other people.

Have you not read the posts here of those Catholics who know and love the bible; ie; Paul, Gail,etc. It wasn't until I started hungering for God and resumed my practice of the Catholic faith that I picked up the bible and couldn't put it down. The Catholic Church has all the tools we need for a vibrant full prayer life. Dear "Christian soldier', check your attitude against Christ's who considered not his status, but rather died out of love for us. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), June 29, 2003.

Thomas, John Gecik has been here for a long time, there are times when I just trust that he knows things about people I don't and he just calls things like they are. He's helped alot of us with his knowledge of the catechism and papal encyclicals. He's stirred up many a good lively conversation leading to healthy struggles and solutions. T

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), June 29, 2003.

What a wonderful thread.

Emerald, stop berating yourself. We love you dude!

Christian Soldier, thank you for sharing your story. It's very good to know the backgrounds of the folks here. Yes, being born again does mean allowing Christ to transform your life. The "born again" phenomena began to happen about 30-40 years ago when churches of all denominations were dry, stagnant and dead. Then the Lord began to rain his love and mercy down on the dry earth, and folks began to open wide their mouths to receive that quenching power of the Holy Spirit. Hence, the label "born again" was used to signify this particular move of the Holy Spirit. Being born again simply means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized." Yet zeal for the things of God ebb and flow.

But CS, You cannot make your experience the litmus test for truth. You came to know Jesus in a greater way outside the church and so you assume that Jesus must not be present there (at the Catholic Church). But Oh, I invite you to shop around a tad at various parishes and ask the Lord to open your eyes. Read the words of the songs. Listen to the scriptures being read. Listen to the communion song. Listen to the exhortation from the pulpit to "Imitate Christ"

Did you know, CS, that the Mass gets its symbolisms, hallelujah choruses, the incense, etc. etc. straight from Revelations? It is a replica of the Lamb's Supper found in Revelations. The Mass is a celebration, a grand celebration of The Wedding Supper of the Lamb! Awesome! Awesome! Awesome!

May zeal for His house consume us all,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 29, 2003.

Thanks for your compliments and trust, Theresa. I will try harder to make myself worthy of your trust.
I want to let you and Thomas know that Eugene Chavez not only is longer in the tooth (65) than I am (51), but he has been here longer (1999) than I have (2000)!!!
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), June 29, 2003.

What?! Eugene is 65 years old? I thought he was around 20...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 29, 2003.

I know what you mean- for the first while I was here, I thought Kiwi and Emerald were women (*sorry* guys!!!) and, like you, I assumed that Eugene was younger. I guess it's his enthusiasm that is so misleading.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 29, 2003.

I didn't think Kiwi an Emerald were women, but yea, Eugene's enthusiasm is misleading. I'm shocked. How old is Paul?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), June 29, 2003.

Eugene's enthusiasm is misleading? Do you all actually believe that a twenty year old could be so "Chavez" in his comments and faith? The man is an ocean of knowledge and faith. Compared to Eugene I'm that little dew that collects on a mirror that is held a bit close to my face and, I don't have to mention, a small insignificant speck in this forum. He..he..he.. I just can't wait to read what Elpidio has to write and the comments that will flare up from his critics.

I guess it would be safe to say that Paul is like the Pacific Ocean. He is patient and peaceful. The man is inspiring. I have tremendous respect for Paul.....and everyone.

John is like the Atlantic Ocean. It is good to navigate cautiously and correctly around John. The man will set you on the right path, if you allow him to. If you don't, he'll show you the bow and plank; you best learn to swim.

Eugene is like the Atlantic Ocean, but not quite like John. The man will let you stay in your boat, but will let you know that your boat is sinking. Oh, he'll throw a life-line just before your nostrils touch the water.

Elpidio? Sorry guy. He is a water spout. He is very well educated and has his historical data on the "ready". Water spouts are amazing. They can shower you and tantalize you. The man is a thought provoker, so be sure your boat has speed.

Rod? He is a slow moving river with many tributaries and pools. The best way to manuever with him is with a submarine that has sails. Until he can figure out where he's at, his marine vessel may conform to something a little more stable. The man asks too many questions, but mostly sits by the shore and watches the tides rise and fall.

Well, I hope I didn't upset anyone.

rod.. .. . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 30, 2003.

Boy, I'm a baby; a slight 21 years!

-- Skoobouy (skoobouy@hotmail.com), June 30, 2003.

Boy, I'm a baby; a slight 21 years!

Hey, me too!

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), June 30, 2003.

I remember when I was 21. I knew everything. Now, I'm 43 and have had to question everything I thought I knew. When I became a parent, I was given a little more insight on how God loves us as His children. I think that when I get to be John's and Eugene's age I will look back on 43 and realize how much more there was to learn. I'm looking foward to getting wiser and smarter, at least this is my prayer.

rod...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 30, 2003.

Dear Forumites,
Do any of you recall the sins in your backgrounds, which even years after we confessed and were joyfully absolved; we think back on and ask Our Lord--

Dearest Jesus, I'm so ashamed when my memory of these sins returns; I beg You Lord. Allow me to die in grace rather than commit them ever again. --???

Yes, I have to think you know what I mean. At age 65.

Yet, at age 20, I was tragically addicted to cigarettes. And I already loved Him to the point of real mysticism. One afternoon while I was meditating, I thought: ''What is the pleasure I love so madly I could never give it up?'' Quickly I thought of cigarettes.

In that instant I knew I had smoked my last cigarette. I offered it up as the proof; I had such love for Him.

Now you're surely thinking: He's just a special soul; a saint? But, no. Most of the latter sins of my life were still ahead of me, I'm sorry to say. We have to confess our backsliding and the bad times too. The main difference between you younger Catholics --and even David Ortiz; --and me; is that I'm nearing the last years (year?) of my life. You don't expect to meet your Maker for some time. Do you? Maybe not. But, I advise you to make the perfect act of love for Him YOUNG. Because He'll never let you go after that, no matter how badly you may sometimes disappoint Him. We think we're the faithful ones. But Jesus Christ is infinitely more faithful toward us. He loves every one of you so much! If we knew how much, it would kill us. The weight of His divine love would suffocate us.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 30, 2003.

Thomas,

First of all, thanks for this wonderful thread. It is great to hear everyone's backround. Sorry not to post sooner, but this is the first time I have been online since spending last week at Boy Scout camp. It was wonderful but I am glad to have slept in my own bed the last two nights!

Although I no longer post as much as I used to, I do log on and read the threads daily. I do not get through all of them due to the popularity of this site, but I enjoy what I get through.

Anyway, I was born and raised Catholic (12 years of parochial education). During college, my weekly attendance began to slip and I took on what I call a "cafeteria" Catholic attitude. Luckily, I married a Catholic girl so I continued to attend Mass and selectively followed the Church's teachings.

It was about 2 years ago (where is David S. when I need him?) that my wife and I began studying our faith. It was also that time that I found this forum. I have come to fully embrace the Catholic faith and NOW follow all of Her teachings and doctrines. It is a wonderful feeling to feel that I truly belong in the Catholic faith. I have a long way to go in my prayer life, and will probably be working on that till my dying day. But at least I know that I belong to a religion that has the fullness of truth. I guess when Jesus promises something (the Holy Spirit will guide the Church for all time), He means it!

God Bless and thanks again for a refreshing thread!

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), June 30, 2003.

I hear you Gene.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), June 30, 2003.

Rod,
You don't have to walk the plank, but it's into the brig with you!
Seriously, though, congrats on your creative imagery.
Atlantic John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 30, 2003.

Yeah Rod, that was very clever AND pretty astute!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 30, 2003.

Thanks for all the answers. I am enjoying hearing everyone's walk of faith. It certainly helps me in my walk. What a wonderfully diverse group!!

The power of prayer - I actually met my wife over the Internet, and proposed to her before I ever knew what she looked like. As we were writing to each other, I really began to sense something special, but I left it totally up to God. I started a 54-day Rosary Novena to the Blessed Mother, one where for the first 27 days you pray for your request, and then the second 27 days you pray in thanksgiving whether or not your request was granted. Well, on the 27 day of the Novena, God inspired me to propose to my wife while we were Instant Messaging. She said yes, we actually met face to face two months later for the first time, and we were married nine months after that. We will be married five years this September, and we have three wonderful children, and life couldn't be better.

The REAL power of prayer - In April 1997, five months before my wife and I started writing, my Mother-in-Law, who is a devout Catholic, prayed the Divine Mercy Novena in preparation for Mercy Sunday. She offered her prayers for her youngest Daughter Valerie (my wife) and asked God to bring a nonsmoking man into her life who was a Catholic of Polish descent. Imagine her joy when Valerie met me, a nonsmoking Catholic of Polish descent.

Who says the Lord doesn't answer our prayers!!

Pax et Bonum.

Thomas

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), June 30, 2003.

Thomas, that is so coooooool! Thanks for sharing,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), June 30, 2003.

I want to do a rosary novena for my daughter's intentions. How did you do it Thomas, didn't it take a big amount of determination? I'm afraid I'd be too tired and skip a day and then give up.

This group never ceases to surprise me. Gene... 65? well, all this time gone by and I thought of you as my brother's age.. hey John ..you don't have to try.. you got my trust...

-- Theresa (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), July 01, 2003.

Hi Thomas, welcome! sorry... hold on... I hear some thing... is it a tyre being blown up?

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

No...Its the sound of Genes rapidly expanding head. LoL. The thing is that the praise is all deserved, hes a legend. He does seem like a 21 year old at times a real scrapper eh. His bark is much worse than his bite. Believe it or not hes mellowed out so much lately, he was a right grumpy old bugger for a while there.

I can relate alot to what John P and Rod said in different ways. In how I live my life and helping others etc I do ok I think as a Catholic but Im just a bit slack on the "finer details".

Theresa your post was great, everyones was, wow what a lovely thread.

All these 21 year olds (sigh)... I feel old!

God bLess you good people

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

I am a cradle Catholic who has run aground on the reef called annulments. It has opened my eyes to the ugliness within the Catholic Church. I do not care who I offend with my posts, if those offended keep their minds closed to facts. I try to be faithful to the facts as well as what I have seen and heard in my own experiences.

I believe that justice has been usurped by false charity in the name of mercy in the years following Vatican II.

I believe it is an off-shoot of Modernism, but I am not the scholar that some appear to be in this forum, so I do not attempt to say that with authority.

I was a big fan of John Paul II but no longer view him very positively, but he is Pope and I do not know what he knows, which is certainly more than me. He speaks in Peter's place.

I am aware that the long history of the Church has seen reactions arise to similar "liberalities" which have resulted in reactionary movements within the Church, which as they focused, I think, only on the "wrongs" created more harm, then the good they originally intended to bring about. Such happens when zealotry feeds on itself and forgets wisdom or at least fails to constantly reexamine itself and presumes its own infallibility.

Such also leads to schism...

I am not an optimist although I know Christ will not abandon His Church. I think He is winnowing his flock and I think the attacks on the Church and the scandals will continue pending a greater return to orthodoxy.

For me, my situation is far to painful to participate fully in the Church. I am glad that God will be my judge and not some forum contributors. He knows all the facts.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

"I am a cradle Catholic who has run aground on the reef called annulments. It has opened my eyes to the ugliness within the Catholic Church"

Sadly Karl, it seems rather to have blinded you to the immense beauty of the Church, and the limitless grace which flows though it to all men. Pain can do that. God can heal pain, but only when we let go of it and give it to Him, not when we cling to it and make it the guiding force in our lives.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 01, 2003.

Hi Karl.

My fear is that your situation may very well be my situation one day if I pursue my return to the Catholic Church. But, I hope that I may stay focused on those things that really matter at the risk of being a schismatic type as things change.

rod... ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 01, 2003.

I would be nothing were I not catholic, but I will not buy into the touchy feely God is merciful at the cost of justice catholicism pervasive in the Church today.

To deny justice is to deny what is truth is to deny God.

A Church which pushes the nullity solution, at the cost of denial of justice to even a few, is not a Church which is faithful to God. It must be just or its claim to holiness is false.

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

The body of Christ was scourged, crowned with thorns, mocked, struck, spat upon, and crucified...In Isaiah we read of the suffering servant who was so disfigured that people turned their eyes away from him...

And yet we call the Church "the body of Christ" following St Paul's lead! St Paul knew all the depravity that exists in a single man's life, as well as false brethren, scandals, and pettiness in the many church communities he served - such as in Corinth, yet he still called the Church the body of Christ!

Have none of you ever looked at yourself in an examination of conscience? Here is a noble soul, a baptized Christian, redeemed by Jesus Christ, justified by his blood, and destined for eternal salvation....and yet a miserable sinner who needs continual prayer and repentance, continual humility and honesty... a prodigal son who must return again and again to the loving Father to ask for forgiveness and healing!

Is this not the path of the "union of men with God in Christ"? (a definition of the Church).

Yes, there are awful sinners in the Catholic Church. There are awful sinners in the human race too! But does that make the human race any less amazing? Does it make the human race any less lovable?

God has answered this question: man sinned and God offered salvation.

It is an eternal human tendency, when faced with personal failure or foible to externalize our guilt...to turn away from the ugliness of our own soul and look at the misery of others and get ANGRY with them! To direct our wrath at the foibles and weaknesses, the sins and injustices of others! To cry out against the Catholic Church...but to give ourselves a pass in the process.

We all do it! But it doesn't make it reasonable or fair. I am not responsible for the sins of a stranger, but I am my "brothers' keeper"!

Jesus commands us to not allow ourselves to loose faith due to scandal. Our brothers may fail us, but God does not fail us. The OTHERS may be less perfect than you, but the union of men with God in Christ is not made less perfect because of human failure.

If we believe in Jesus Christ - and all that He claimed to be and command, then we must work simultaneously on our own conversion and pray for the conversion of others - especially those we feel wrath for.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 01, 2003.

Dear Karl,

In any system which dispenses justice through the actions of men, mistakes will be made. Would you do away with the entire criminal justice system because a few guilty people go free, and a few innocent people are unjustly convicted? What about the millions who receive justice through the system? Would you deny them that justice, in order to avoid a few wrong judgments? The same is true with the marriage tribunal system. It serves the Church's people in a valid and crucial way. Are some local tribunals better than others? Of course. So are some civil judges. That doesn't serve as a condemnation of the whole system. Perhaps your experience with the system was negative; however, your personal experience with the system was miniscule compared with the functioning of the tribunal system in the Church at large. Perhaps you should avoid making sweeping generalizations which encompass millions of people, based on nothing more than your personal experience with a handful of people in one location. The judgment of that particular tribunal in your particular case doesn't even stand as a valid criterion for evaluating that tribunal, let along evaluating the whole tribunal system as it serves God's Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 01, 2003.

Easier said than done, Joe.

And I suppose the non-repentant among the clerics who continue to wreck havoc on the innocent should be followed, I do not think so. There is no union of men with Christ who persist in open defiance of truth, nor is their union with Christ among those who defend them.

Point your epee at the TEACHERS AND CLERICS, they are to be held to a higher standard by the word of God himself. When they harbor and encourage criminal actions and refuse justice they do lead others astray. It is not a game, they are leading souls to death and those who do not openly condemn such atrocities are guilty of the same crimes themselves but like the cowards they are they bash the true victims!

Preach to the clergy, Joe. They need it more.

Some of us have lost every possession we had for what we believe in! Some of us lost our children, at the encouragement of the Church through an immoral judicial system when the Church knew it was fraud! Some of us lost our freedom, becoming indentured servants to our adulterous spouses and the state! Some of us are forced to support these adulterers as they brainwash our children! Some of us are forced to attend our childrens sacraments when these adulterers are in attendence together as spouses, when the Church knows it is adultery! These scum are referred to as parents, while their faithful spouses are loathed! Some of us remain faithful to the truth, in spite of a Church full of lies!

I hear you Joe, but preach to the perpetrators and their supporters before you have the gall to preach to the victims. Ask me to be merciful when they feel the heat for their crimes. Do not dishonor truth by holding me to the scorn, those clerics who beget misery so richly deserve, as their minions in this forum grovel at their tables for their scraps, instead of demanding justice from them because they choose to remain ignorant!

I can't wait to get a reply from John, the self-righteous and his ilk!

Joe, I believe you meant well but you do not know what evil the Church encourages.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

Read Vasoli's book, Paul or shut up because you are not concerned with the truth unless you do.

Chosen ignorance is not Catholic, nor are you a good deacon if you choose ignorance. Seek the facts, then I will listen to your opinion, Paul.

And no, Paul a system should not be discarded if its error are minor but this one's arrors are not and it should be closed down for review of all its American decisions. By Rotal suditors.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

Karl.

What real actions can you take in order to make things right, if the Church won't (in your view)?

How can a person remain in a church that he cannot agree with?

You are just as bound by the same authority as all of the Catholics and you speak as though you have no choice but to remain bound. Is this the real struggle?

rod... .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 01, 2003.

We are only minions here, you say? What brings you to this forum? We will gladly return your compliment, and refund anything you had to pay. You once called me stupid. I forgive you. You call others adulterers. Are you their judge? You say our clergy is corrupt. You demand we ''investigate''. Now you tell Paul to shut up if he disagrees with you.

Just beat it. We have no obligation to perform like trained seals here for you. You're mounting an indisputible case of paranoiac persecution complex against yourself. Go to a mental health clinic. Spill your guts there. If we need you back here we'll call you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 01, 2003.

Rod,

A quick answer:

The struggle is at least two fold and likely more.

1. You really do have to surrender all, ALL, if you love God. Every Christian knows this. Anything you covet, or you love more than Jesus, separates you from Jesus. I know this struggle. I live this struggle. But the self-righteous believe the Church to be perfect while its members, especially when they are clerics, openly defy the truth and are not held accoutable by there peer clerics. it make justice a joke, regardless of what the Know-It_All folks say. These same people often see Jesus as the Pilsbury dough God, as long as it suits their fancy. Balderdash!

2. It is be catholic or be nothing! All protestantism is, is various forms of adultery. Jews are still stiff-necked and will not accept that the messiah has come. If you have not heard the Gospel from a source who actually tries to follow Christ, you will be judged, I guess, according to your pursuit of truth as best you can follow it.

3. I do not fault the teachings, just the practice. Fools like John try to put word in your mouth by telling you what you believe but won't listen or see their own blindness as they admnire their own posts. As Paul said, you do not abandon all because some are lousy. But it is a testament to the corruption's integrated nature in the Church that it can not cleanse itself and in many, many cases actually refuses to hear the facts, instead spouting defenses of itself that are as transparent and disingenuous as you can get.

Rod, facts are facts. The numbers indict the American tribunal system to all who are not inherently biased against self-introspection as it pertains to actions of the hierarchy. But those who will not look, will never see. Yet they call themselves good Catholics.

My personal struggle with the Church is one small facet of a corrupt tribunal system. A good system should address every complaint. but of course the complaint must be viable, so how does the Church deal with that. It waits till the evidence trail is cold or dead. That they call justice. I call it corruption or at best incompetence.

But that does not alter the truth TAUGHT by the Church.

4. I am bound by truth only, not abuse of authority even if the abuser is called Holy Father or your eminence or monsignor, or father. And the clergy is judges by a higher standard but to me regarding the tribunal system I see precious little evidence of that.

Just a few meandering thoughts Rod.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

Exhibit A, Eugene.

Do not concern me with the facts, my mind is made up.

This is not a Catholic attitude, but no one calls him on it. A bunch of lap dogs. Yes, men. Then they swarm for the kill like hoards, who remain ignorant by choice.

I am not being cruel, just truthful.

Karl

-- Karl (PArkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

Eugene,

If you have an opinion and it is based upon chosen ignorance, your opinion is worthless. You either seek the truth or you shut up. If the truth is hidden from you, then its a problem but if it is available to the public and you stay cloaked in ignorance, then you are an idiot.

Mental illness is more prevalent among those use terms of accusation they do not understand. Anger is not mental illness, but denial is.

I did not tell Paul to shut up because he disagreed with me, that is the very thing you are doing right now but you are too blind to see it. I told him to seek the truth/facts or shut up. These are two different things.

Paul has every right to disagree with me, provided he seeks the truth and does not dismiss accusations with an ignorance defense. It is never wrong to have an opinion based upon the best information you have. It is wrong to have an opinion contrary to the evidence when you refuse to look at the evidence. If you will not look at the evidence then you are just as good as a hole in the head.

The Rota decided there were sufficient facts to render a decision on adultery, not my sole opinion. The clerics who refused to confront the adultery are corrupt when they refused to see the inherent perjury/contradiction in a person who has two children with a man who is not her husband and says she cares about what the Church teaches and violates the vows the Church, by law, is forced to presume.

Eugene, you misunderstand facts and are too emotional.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

Hi Karl.

Those are some very strong and powerful thoughts. I've always had a nagging little voice telling me to see the teachings of the Church and how they are practiced in real life. For some, the hardest thing is to face the truth. But, I'm sure that those who fear the truth can be conquered. It takes tenacity in order to keep the Church true. It takes weeding out those who are corrupt. Can you do such a thing in your parish? Can anyone do anything? From my perspective, it seems too faraway to see how anything could be corrected. Sometimes it might be easier to walk away and come back with a bigger purpose or a bigger stick.

ro

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 01, 2003.

''Not a Catholic attitude, but no one calls him (Eugene) on it.

You've called me. The only problem is, you have paranoid compulsions to punish others. Anybody who stands up to you. I'm not trying to be cruel, Karl. Just my version of the facts.

We are ignorant by choice. Fine. You are intelligent by choice. You have all the fine Catholic attitudes. Who am I to stand up to you? You're intelligent and I'm ignorant by choice. Just the mismatch you should appreciate. Beat me up.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 01, 2003.

"Can anyone do anything? From my perspective, it seems too faraway to see how anything could be corrected. Sometimes it might be easier to walk away and come back with a bigger purpose or a bigger stick."

rod,

I am in a similar situation as Karl; although my case has not 'progressed' as far 'negative' yet...

As are Karl's eyes opened -so are mine NOW that I have seen the 'behind the scenes' activity - NOW I realize there is something eating away at an important facet of our Church -the family... What can I do, what can anyone do?

How about an answer to the question with a question -- What can God not do? IF I am an 'instrument' of God's will and thus pursue truth and do my best to expose what I have and am discovering will I not succeed? The pastoral 'idiots' on the hill that are short sightedly 'healing' individuals in a physical/earthly/bodily sense are doing damage to the Church that will only be evident 'long term'...

NOW I speak of 'pastoral' vs. judicial Tribunals -specifically the Tribunals that by action are counter to what God, Church, Rome, and the Pope set forth:

WHAT is happening in the pastoral Tribunals amounts to saving bodies from pain at the sacrifice of souls, enabling individual gratification at the expense of marital sacrament and familial sanctity.

Families are being destroyed by all evils in society/culture that destroy families -the Pastoral Tribunals assist by declaring the destruction/death 'valid'; they compound the issue by resurrecting the possibility for a 'new' family... a family born of sin, a rubber stamped adultery. YES such families and such sin are doing much for our Church! The trend is going in the wrong direction...

The Church has an avenue for healing individuals NOT familes and NOT marriages. What is your Diocese' budget and staffing for Marriage 'stuff' compared to divorce/annulment/marriage tribunal stuff? How many 'pro-marriage' minitries does your Parish have, compared to pro-divorce etc? Ask the questions??? As a rule why does the Church, specifically clergy, no longer counsel married couples/individuals that are having problems?

Yes there are good excuses, ask the questions and you will hear them - look around --the effects are easily seen...

Does the Church need permission to tend to the spiritual needs of its flock? If the church is not doing IT then what? There is no justification for the 'desertion' of the faithful in need...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 01, 2003.

"I can't wait to get a reply from John, the self-righteous and his ilk!" [Karl]

Jmj
This thread was started, for a very good reason, by a new contributor, Thomas. It started with almost 50 relatively pleasant messages, many of which were probably useful to Thomas. But ... then came "Karl."

Since the arrival of this ne'er-do-well, the thread has been "hijacked," probably much to the chagrin of Thomas, who has had to suffer through about 16 messages focusing on the twisted path and paranoia of "Karl." In fact, "Karl" (plus his alias, "Daniel") has posted 8 of the last 16 messages. What a wonderful encouragement to Thomas!

For months, I have been calling for "Karl" to be banned, but (mirabile dictu) he is still being allowed to post here, mucking up the works. I renew that call for banning now, and I ask that these last 17 messages (beginning with Karl's and ending with mine) be purged from this thread -- so that Thomas will see that the forum is not so permissive as to tolerate posts from people whose attitude is pure poison and whose goal is to undermine faith and make people as miserable as he is.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 01, 2003.

"The way Thomas got married reminds a lot about the marriages put together by reverend Moon. And it works! There are even those who will never think that in fact this kind of arranged marriages are against the common teaching of the Church that asks for a lot of mutual knowledge before getting into it. Never mind, what do we have the web for?"

Well, I certainly would not equate reverend Moon with God, as seems to be the case here. I never considered my marriage to be "arranged," but if indeed that is what it is, then who better to arrange it than God?

As for the Rosary Novena, Theresa, it starts in your heart. Yes, there will be days where you may not think you have 15 - 20 minutes to pray it, but since you heart desires this for your daughter, you will manage to find the time. It is a powerful prayer - just be open to whatever answers God provides.

I will offer my prayers for your daughter as well.

Pax et Bonum.

Thomas

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 01, 2003.

When I posted on this thread, I simply gave my introduction as Thomas requested if you care to observe the facts John, not your usual vitriol.

Paul started the the attack, which was unsolicited. It continued from there.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

You misunderstand me. I was NOT saying "everything is hunky dory, and no one is REALLY sinnful it's just an illusion". No. I know that others sin...many more greviously, many less greviously than I do. But the ideal: the union of men with God in Christ, is still holy.

Just because any number of us men fail to live in this union does not mean the union itself is impossible! Just because a whopping 2% of priests are corrupt (and all of them either gone, in jail, or under investigation), doesn't make the other 98% suspect and guilty until proven innocent.

I know there is a terrible problem with Catholic laypeople getting abortions, using contraception, using and getting addicted to pornography and all the other sexual vices...and that most parish priests DON'T preach on these moral issues.

I know that around 40% of Catholic "marriages" end in divorce - that many pre-cana programs do not do a good job at preparing kids or 20 somethings for the sacraments...

But what of it? We're all sinners. This doesn't make sin OK. It makes our job, our mission, that much more difficult and essential. The "Church" is not going to improve unless we "victims" step up to the plate and become saints. In your case, your holiness must begin with two virtues: mercy and gratitude.

You need to forgive those who have trespassed against you, and you need to begin to thank God for the good graces you do have and the good things people have done for you. This will change your heart from the current state of anger to a state of apostolic zeal wherein you will identify with the Heart of Christ, pity those who sin and seek to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in their CONVERSION, and conquest for Christ.

You don't think I COULD GRIPE? But what would that acheive? How many people have lost their faith in Jesus and his gift, the Church, because they focus only on the negative, only on what they don't have, or all the bad examples and false brethren....while not treasuring the gifts of the faith, the ideals, the goals, the possibilities that they DO HAVE?

You want me to preach to the teachers and preachers???? Well? How far along are you in preparing yourself to become a teacher? I do cooperate with some "preachers" - and I do strive to help them become better men, better apostles. I pray for them. I offer them suggestions. I fight darkness with light, not with curses.

And so can you, Karl. So can you.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 02, 2003.

Joe, I agree in essence with all you've posted. But one thing is misleading.

It's become popularly understood, for some reason, that our parish priests haven't preached on sin and the conscience. That we've now been given priests (Vatican II, naturally) who only dumb down the faith to us.

People who like to say this may not be confessing to these priests frequently enough. The best place for admonition & for warning us to avoid every sin, is and always has been the confessional.

Most, if not all, Catholic priests will carry the message to you in the sacrament of reconciliation. You haven't been absolved by a Catholic priest before you're warned and exhorted to repent. It is a routine that very few confessors fail to observe, because they have the Holy Spirit in that stole around their neck (figuratively--).

Don't listen to the naysayers. They think they can divide us by lamenting how priests are too jolly; to lax. Let them confess their sins, and then-- tell us how lax a priest is in the sacrament of reconciliation!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.

One priest, after hearing two of my children's confessions, violated them with their mother, who told them what the priest had told her. The Church did nothing but silence the priest. They did not excommunicate him as canon law requires.

Another good priest absolved my wife of her sin of adultery, which continues, and welcomed her to communion until I forced the local ordinary to put an end to it by sending him a copy of a well-known moral theologian's refutation of such practices and I let him know that I intended to follow it up with Rome if he failed to act. He did but only after the promise of follow up was made.

Two good priests and a bishop.

They are not exceptions, Eugene.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

I've been to confession recently. The priest who absolved me let me have both barrels first. You may have a problem priest in your parish. But, then you might not. Your problem might be a persecution complex. Go to confession, Karl. Inquire there.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.

You are such a persnickity old coot, Eugene. I am telling you what happened, not some imaginary pipe dream. The facts speak for themselves. You just choose to ignore what does not fit your sanitized preconceived notion of practice in the Church. You are so thick that the truth offends you.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

Dear Karl,

The priest and bishop whose actions you mention are obviously not the ONLY exceptions - but they are indeed exceptions! The only way you could establish that they are not exceptions is to compare them with every one, or at least most of 50,000 priests in the United States. But you have a strong tendency to take your miniscule personal experiences and project them onto the entire Church. This approach is called bigotry. "Hispanic people are lazy ... How do you know that? ... Well I had two Hispanic employees and they were both lazy." Sounds a lot like your comments on what "Catholic clergy" are like.

As for breaking the seal of confession, the excommunication is not a specific administrative action of the Church after the fact. The act itself excommunicates the priest the priest who commits it, automatically, even if the transgression never becomes known. The same is true of other offenses invoking excommunication - like participation in an abortion. The Church may or may not make a formal pronouncement of the excommunication, but it is in effect, de facto, from the moment the act occurs.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 02, 2003.

Karl might feel better if it were published every week in the National Enqooorier. Yep.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.

PAUL,

READ SOME OF ANDREW GREELEY'S WORK, ALTHOUGH I AM NOT A FAN OF HIS LIBERAL WAYS, BUT HIS SOCIOLOGICAL DATA IS PRETTY RELIABLE. HE MIGHT DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT OF WHAT HE HAS FOUND REGARDING THE LAXNESS, ALTHOUGH HE I BELIEVE LIKES IT, IN THE PRACTICE OF MANY, NOT EXCEPTIONAL, PRIESTS.

KARL

-- KARL (PARKERKAJWEN@HOTMAIL.COM), July 02, 2003.

The Wanderer does a better, more orthodox job, of pointing out errors among catholics. I like the Wanderer but can not afford the subscription price. I can only see it from time to time. Darn.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

And such a cowardly excommunication does nothing to address the damage done by the violation. That is consistant with the laxity in the Church. Leave the beast to do what he does but he is REALLY excommunicated. Church Double talk, newspeak.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

Easy everyone. Easy on Karl.

Look guys...he lost his spouse and custody of his children. That's a pretty tough row to hoe for anyone, regardless of whether he steps up to the plate and forgives them.

How many of us could loose our spouse - be told that our marriage was invalid, that a wedding occured but not a sacrament...that it was all a mistake, sorry, and by the way, she has a new boyfriend who'll have custody rights...

In short, while lots of arguments can be made theologically and philosophically about the Church, local and universal, etc. the tragedy of marital and familial breakdown continues. And that's just sad. I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

How does a man (and father especially) recover from such a turn of affairs? I mean, if you are convinced that your spouse is living in adultery...you can't just "forget her" and go get married and start from scratch... it wouldn't be loyal to your spouse or children.

This is why in Canon Law, the vast majority of numbers correspond to marriage and marital problems than on any other sacrament. It seems people can tie themselves in greater knots in this area than in any other.

So much saddness, so many hurt hearts...the shame, the pity of it all.

So give Karl a break, pray God's will be done in his life and marriage

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 02, 2003.

Joe,

The Roman Rota has ruled the marriage is a sacrament, not invalid.

The Church in the United States just ignores the decision and treats the adulterers like spouses.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

Jmj

Joe, this is your first misstep at the forum -- standing up in defense of "Karl" -- though it is an understandable misstep. Your compassion for him is admirable and was shared by many here when "Karl" first came to the forum.

The problem, Joe, is that you have not read the three or four months of horrendous posts from "Karl" -- all the anti-Catholic/anti-papal things he has said, his descriptions of having fallen away from active practice of his faith, his unwanted interference on so many threads where he was not welcome (because he had nothing to say except the umpteenth recital of his tale of woe), etc., etc., etc..

In other words, Joe, if you had had the misfortune of reading all the "Karl" has published here for many, many weeks, you would not (I am confident) have just now told us to go "easy on Karl." There is a mountain of valid reasons for which people are no longer going "easy on Karl." And yet, here he remains, so very sado-masochistically.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

JFG, whats does 'Jmj' stand for? I see you put it in the being of each of your posts.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 02, 2003.

Joe,

If I were to suggest John was a female impersonator impersonating a man hmmm... BUT really, John may very well be a computer generated man boy; further, this animated 'man boy' is truly inspired and programmed 'literally' by a young voodoo practioner in New Orleans...

Even IF all this were true and factual -there is no middle ground or justification for what John does and is doing that is EVIL -YES, even if cloaked in pontific justification!

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 02, 2003.

No, Joe. John is basically correct about Karl. Mr. Hawkenberry, instead of being Christian, is abusing this forum even worse than Karl. Karl, you see, has a bone to pick with the Catholic heirarchy in the U.S. Daniel has a bone to pick with John, and commits the sin of calling John EVIL. John is never evil. He's known to over-react sometimes, but it isn't from evil. He's just very impatient with the ones who betray their faith. I am to, if the truth be known.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 02, 2003.

Always a pleasure to hear from you, John.

You too, Eugene

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

Hi.

Let's be honest here. Karl is still suffering his pain and has not yet identified the real culprit. It isn't the Church. Oh, we may be able to find things that are not exactly agreeable with the Church. Karl needs to put his finger on the real culprit. Is it the other person or persons or is it himself. When I realized the truth, my anger retreated away from the blameless. I got to work making repairs instead of making domolitions.

Karl if my thoughts are out-of-line, please forgive me for speaking out. But, I think I have felt the pain you've experienced. I just didn't go through the Church for resolutions.

rod,.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 02, 2003.

Rod,

My pain is not the point. The point is truth. The point is justice.

There are many point and my time at the library is about over. It is my access to a computer.

But outside the Church their is nothing but less than what it could be. That is not where I care to be.

Nowhere is there perfection of this earth but that should, ever, be the mission of the Church and of each individual Catholic. The journey toward perfection found in the truth which is Christ.

Not much in the way of an answer, but you are not out of line.

Ignorance is out of line. Especially ignorance manifested in intelligent Catholics.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 02, 2003.

John, my post was not to ignore much less approve what excesses Karl's wrath may have taken him to. The point was: a man who is sucker punched in the worse way will most likely lash out. If you all pile on you're missing the big picture....

The good Samaritan didn't question whether the traveler "deserved" to get robbed and beaten half to death... he just helped him.

Someone comes here with a tale of woe. It's likely that he's telling the truth: the local Church runs a annulment mill - while the Roman Rota (higher court of appeal) routinely overturns the lax lower court....but in the interim between first case and appeal, one defendent goes out, gets remarried and starts life over...

Now that isn't fair. There's simply no excuse for it. Injustice is injustice. Rome was right, the man is in the right, but the local church and wife skated! No one is defrocked or fired, demoted or reprimanded in the local annulment board. And the wife has a new husband and children... a new life...

Yet her real and only husband has been told on the highest available authority that he's still married and thus can not in conscience "start over".

Don't you guys see the irony? Don't you guys see the cross involved here? He's got the rest of his life to live, ALONE - until she dies... so he can not have "closure".

I don't suscribe to his other claims or beliefs but I do agree that this situation (provided he's telling the truth) is awful. At the bare minimum the "bad guy" here is his wife, not him. You'd expect at least a major shakeup coming down the pike for the local annulment body...something to make this sacrifice "worth it".

Karl still has basically only two options: to say "the hell with it" and fall away into either self-absorbed sin of one type or another...or become a suffering servant of Christ - rendering a daily sacrifice of loyalty to Jesus Christ who also has suffered from unfaithful friends and unworthy "spouses".

Most of us don't have such existential choices laid before us: either joing the crowd in laxity and sin or become a martyr, a living witness to the sanctity of marriage and fidelity to God!

Scheeesh. I wonder about you guys sometimes. Pray for the man. Pity the man. Pray for his wife. Pray for the local Church (or do you think the pedophila problem was the only problem we face?)!

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.

Joe,

Careful what you say or you will incurr the wrath of those who think the Church does not err!

My arguments with these folks are because they refuse to examine the facts, which makes them non-Catholics but they are too proud to accept it. It drives them nuts that if I accuse the Pope, correctly, of not taking sufficient action to address the inadequacies of HIS tribunal system that their Holy Pope make actually be human and make errors.

For that I am awful! He can not possibly make a bad judgement----EVER according to some in this crowd.

They somehow think that it is Catholic to treat the roots of the problem, which I have NEVER said the Pope has done wrongly, but to fail to provide accessible routes to address grievences regarding the Tribunal process and accesibility to lay respondents to make significant contributions to thr ENTIRE annulment system based upon their ACTUAL experiences.

Every soul is imprtant to God, not just the majority or a sizeable minority. If the Church does not reflect this, it IS IN ERROR.

One point Joe that I ask you to think about!

The Pope is on record saying that attorneys should not take frivolous divorce cases. Meaning when there are no canonical grounds a catholic attorney should refuse to take a case. Makes perfect sense to me.

Why then is it REQUIRED, NOT OPTIONAL to be DIVORCED before the Church will examoine nullity? Would it not be unjust to REQUIRE A DIVORCE when there is a valid marriage? Makes sense to me.

The reason given...The marriage is dead anyway and the actual reason... to prevent lawsuits against the Church where there are still statutes for alienation of affection are BOTH not sufficient to justify a divorce that has no canonical grounds. Makes sense to me.

The only honest and truly Catholic position for the Church to take would be to FORBID divorce until a long period of reconciliation was first earnestly attempted AND the union was examined for nullity. Makes sense to me.

But that IS NOT WHAT IT PRACTICES!

But an aside to this simple issue.

Why does the Church NOW not examine the divorce to see if it is justified BEFORE IT ACCEPTS ANY ANNULMENT PETITION? Makes sense to me.

Why does it not severly punish one or both spouses who destroy their marriage but refuse to work at it? Makes sense to me. And, if a divorce was obtained immorally by one or both spouses, why, in the name of God would anyone with a modicum of intelligence PRESUME that a person who IMMORALLY got a divorce would BE INCLINED to be truthful in an annulment inquiry? Puzzles the heck out of me!

Just a couple of thoughts, Joe.

I appreciate that you even bother to listen.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

I certainly agree with "Pray for the man. Pity the man. Pray for his wife. Pray for the local Church". But I am not quite as ready as you to accept "It's likely that he's telling the truth". Not that I think he is intentionally trying to mislead anyone. But the version presented by the injured party is usually not the most reliable source of objectively truthful information. When Mr. A's car gets bumped by Mr. B's car in the parking lot, you can bet that Mr. B came screeching out of his parking place at a reckless rate of speed, without looking back, and probably had a beer can in his hand too - according to the testimony of Mr. A. In any case, compassion is always in order, but the fact that an individual is displeased with an official decision, and is very vocal in denouncing those who made the decision, doesn't necessarily mean there was anything objectively wrong with the manner in which the decision was rendered. The fact that the party sincerely believes he was wronged likewise proves nothing. In any case, the principle focus of prayer would seem to be that he can accept what cannot be changed, forgive those he perceives as having done him an injustice, and not spend the rest of his life bemoaning the past.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 03, 2003.

Karl,

Let's say the Church agrees with the Roman Rota and reverses its decision? What happens then?

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 03, 2003.

I assure you that, once again, all of what I have posted is true. One of the strengths of the Rotal system is in its insulation from personal contact with either the petitioner or the respondent, in most cases I believe. I am certain this led to the two decisions in favor of the sacrament.

As I have stated frequently, the First instance court made their decision before they heard the facts and forced what facts they could to fit their model and then discounted or discredited those which did not meet with their approval. The Rota saw through this.

But it was the damage done by the clerics related to the First court which encouraged my wife in her adultery and still does because the Church will not address the wrongs long ago pointed out to them, actually from before they began to happen. Although all along, wherever my wife and her lover have lived, their adultery is encouraged by clerics and laity alike. That is where some of my conclusion about the wide-spread nature of this come from. They have lived in numerous dioceses. It is the same everywhere they have been.

In marriage there is no past unless you refuse to accept the permanence of it. Each day there is ann immoral separation there is a concommitant violation of God, the marriage and the Body of Christ. Unjustified divorce is a never ending, until death, sin. That is the crux of what is forgotten. And the LEGAL consequences are devastating every single day I will live in infinite ways, so I do not bemoan the past I am in constant persecution at the hands of my wife, her lover, the government and the Church----every single day of my life. I would bear it all much more courageously were the Church to address its continuing errors and punish those who refuse to end this madness.

But that will never happen until normal people begin to see what is really going on and press each pastor and each bishop to address the LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS about the tribunal system. There are many.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

Thomas---The Rota is the Papal Court. It is the Church. But a decision is only as good as the Church will ENFORCE IT and REQUIRE obedience to it.

For example in my opinion it would be within the rights of the Church, were I the one to have adulterously abandoned my spouse, to say to me You will divorce the lover you have and you will undo all you have done as is humanly possible and you will make restituiton as is humanly possible and all of this will be confirmed by the local ordinaries before you will be allowed to set foot in a Church or to approach the sacrament of reconciliation. Failure to do this and you will be denied even the last rites. Period. End of discussion.

Not draconian, simply just.

Paul---- You are correct in what you present regarding the conclusions that MAY be drawn from the examples you give.

But as I have said before there is something very wrong with a system of justice if the same set of closed facts can lead two sets of judges to two different and diametrically opposed conclusions. It can not remain this way if validity of marriages by the hundreds of thousands are subject to this uncertainty. To an objective person this disparity of outcomes cannot stand unchanged or unchallenged.

Where the system falls apart, in my opinion, is lack of objectivity of everyone in the American and American influenced tribunals and failure to submit to the jurisprudential case load from the many Rotal decisions on American Cases over the past two decades, which more clearly reflect Papal and Church teachings than do the American decisions.

Karl

-- Karl (PArkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

Okay, let's use your example. Where would that leave your spouse?

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 03, 2003.

If I understand you correctly, it would leave her with the impression that she was clearly outside what the Church taught and required of her.

Hopefully it would bring her to examine her actions in the light of the decision of the truth and to confront whether she wished to remain in the Church or outside the Church.

This is exactly what she should be thinking now, but has been encouraged otherwise by those in the Church who think they are the authentic teachers when they are truly misguided but actually in the majority and in control of the American Church currently.

This too is what I think is at the basis of all the post Vatican II troubles. False charity at the expense of justice resulting in a decay of desire and adherence to the truth .

Karl

I can not reply soon after this sorry. I will be away with no computer, likely.

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

Karl,

I think what you are trying to say is that you feel the Church is well within it's right to tell your spouse to divorce her lover and undo all you have done and make restitution as humanly possible before returning to the Church. You hope that this decision would show her that she is clearly outside of what the Church taught and required of her, and that she would examine her actions and decide whether or not she wants to remain in the Church.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that this happens, where does that leave you?

Pax et Bonum.

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 03, 2003.

Oops, I meant undo all SHE had done.

Sorry.

-- Thomas (tcdzomba@excite.com), July 03, 2003.

It leaves me married, as it should. It would also find me returning to full participation in the Church, since justice being served would require my acquiescence.

As it is now, since the Church is officially part of the injustice, I am bound in truth to keep my distance from her(the Church), as I see it.

But to be sure, the Church would have to hold all the clerics I have charged with wrongdoing accountable before I would return fully as well, as well. It is complicated but not impossible if the Church would only do what is right.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

Karl. It sounds as if the Church is not going to change anyting unless two things happen:

1. your ex-spouse denounces her faith as a Catholic.

2. your ex-spouse dies.

3. you and your ex-spouse reconciliate and marry.

I don't know what would happen if she would denounce her faith. Perhaps this would nullify your marriage from the start? I don't know. But, I'm left wondering if you want your freedom to marry again, re-marry with her, or to punish her. Like I've mentioned, the Church ain't budging. Yes, I understand what you have pointed out, but it sounds if it would be easier to squeeze water from a rock, than to squeeze the Church for a decision in your favor. rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.

sorry, three things not two. . . . . ..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 03, 2003.

Jmj

Hello, Joe.
You replied to my criticism:
"John, ... Don't you guys see the irony? Don't you guys see the cross involved here? ... I don't suscribe to his other claims or beliefs but I do agree that this situation (provided he's telling the truth) is awful. ... Scheeesh. I wonder about you guys sometimes. Pray for the man. Pity the man. Pray for his wife. Pray for the local Church ... !"

Joe, your counter-criticism is totally unjustified. Your comments wrongly imply that we don't care about Karl and what happened to him.
How can you command us to "pity" him, "pray" for his wife, and "pray" for the "local Church" -- as though you have some way of knowing whether or not we have done that?
How could you think that we "[d]on't ... see the cross involved here"?
We see it even better than you do, Joe, because we have read about it at least fifty times!

That was my point, which you all but overlooked. We ARE sympathetic to Karl's specific, personal case, but it is not right for him to drone on and on about it, dozens of times -- in the midst of his anti-papal, anti-Catholic commentary. As I said last time, you must not have read enough of his comments (across four months), so you don't realize how bad he has been. Please don't try to turn this thing around against us, Joe, when it is Karl who is in the wrong here at the forum (though most of us grant that he is in the right in his personal situation).

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 03, 2003.

John,

You are tap dancing now...

Please point out this compassion and understanding you refer to that was extended to Karl. I do not remember it -I may be incorrect in my assertion that you are but giving lip service to compassion whilst by actions over time you have been and are doing all BUT this compassion you speak of...

hmmm... It is easy enough to provide a link or two to the compassion you reference that I missed...

Daniel --no aliases!

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 03, 2003.

Daniel,
Your advocacy is specious. Nothing concerning Karl makes you react; it's animosity toward a fellow Catholic. First off, I didn't see Karl imploring your help. Second, you're confronting John, who wasn't addressing you. Karl can take care of himself. If you'd like to attack somebody attack me. Love your neighbor, Dan.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 03, 2003.

"Karl still has basically only two options: to say "the hell with it" and fall away into either self-absorbed sin of one type or another...or become a suffering servant of Christ - rendering a daily sacrifice of loyalty to Jesus Christ who also has suffered from unfaithful friends and unworthy "spouses"."

Damn good answer; the only answer.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 03, 2003.

eugene,

your post itself defeats its intent -who are you defending and who asked -am I not your brother as well?

Rather than take sides as you appear to presume I do -seek truth -- truth is the measure to attain and contrast against...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), July 03, 2003.

Thomas,

What a great question! I've been lurking here for many months and am often baffled too at the number of personalities. My original interest here was marital, but I'm also interested in all the other sacraments, the Bible, the catechism, etc. There is a lot of interesting material here and I think its actually good that people are free here to mix it up and argue at times.

I personally am just Catholic. Recite the Credo, slowly and thoughtfully, and you'll know where I stand.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), July 04, 2003.

Dear Daniel:
Just because I told you how specious your attack on John sounds, is no sign we can't be brothers. It's unkind of you to say John did evil. Period.

I should hope if somebody ever charges me of that, you'll step up for me. Or, just attack me as well. That's my present suggestion. Let's forgive & forget?

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Dear Mr. Delaney,
I'm glad you've said your piece in this particular situation. Because it's wonderful to see from it how there may be hundreds of lurkers at a given time, eager to bring the Catholic faith into their homes.

John Gecik has argued, with me in particular, from his reaction against ant-Catholics; that we do wrong to let them post on and on, without deletions. Often John lets his anger over this make him seem very uncharitable; when he's really a fine person, a great Catholic. Just see how Daniel has been turned off. It's unchristian.

But your words are proof of what I always answer John: We MUST confront enemies of the Catholic faith. We should welcome the chance to vindicate the Church on the Internet.

I'm not aways successful. Nor is John always unable or unwilling to mount terrific cases against unworthy posters here. - -It's a combined effort. By disputing all the bashers, and upholding the faith of the holy apostles, we're opening everyones' eyes; maybe by the hundreds every day, of the innocent bystanders who visit this site. Maybe by the grace of God, we even help somebody on the way to conversion. Or the reverse; save somebody from the temptation to believe in false prophets.

We know well they're out there, working to foil the Catholic Church with evil propaganda and lies. Nowadays especially, when our Church has suffered evil things from within as well as a feeding frenzy of media news. Now is the hour for good Catholics to protect the holy Faith; not run away from the detractors. I hope you agree, and never stop praying for us. THANKS, Pat!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 04, 2003.

Hi Thomas , I'm visiting this place since August 2001 , accidently found via google !! __ I was catholic , I left , and I don't follow any kind of religion anymore , 'coz , it's not my kind of living !!!! __ Today , I'm visiting this forum once in a while , other things to do !! But sometimes , I drop my opinion on this forum , when I want to !! __ That's it , cheers 2 ya all !!

Greets from a NONE BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), July 06, 2003.

Hey Laurent, religion, at least the Catholic kind is YOUR kind of living! You just dont realsie it yet! Your true kind of living is Gods kind of living, examine your heart and seek the truth. Youre a good man, youll be back I have no doubt:-). Hope that eyesight is hanging in there. Cheers!

Hi Karl

The Church has her faults, yet I hope Karl can keep things in perspective. Anyway I really just wanted to say I didnt want to see him banned John. Ive learnt a lot off him and he has much to offer . Hes made many good points especially on the denial of systemic and institutional failure in the church shown by some.

I hope you accept that we are just a small group of lay Catholics wishing to grow in our understanding of our faith and share it with others. Youve made your point on the annulments issue (on many threads),it has been noted!!! I hope youre able to put this issue aside and join us in spreading all the "good bits" ! If you feel you are unable to do this then perhaps you should consider alternative avenues to voice your specific concerns as this forum is not the place for those with ONLY an axe to grind.

Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003.

sorry to talk to you in the third person Karl whoops , it was meant for JFG

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 07, 2003.

Kiwi,

I do realize the limitations of this forum but I see it also as not too bad, albeit relatively small, a reflection of the umbrella called the Catholic Church, particularly the Latin Church, as John would have it and as makes sense rather than the Roman Church.

And as you might have seen my rants, if you will, at the Church are fairly specific and I think soundly based. This being a reflection of the Church, it shows, I think the rigidity of certain Catholics in believeing and accepting what is practiced in the Church when there are possibly good reasons to question these practices, perhaps not to completely do away with them but to at the very least thoroughly investigate the allegations openly and not just in a closed clerical circle and then to publish exactly what the investigation entailed and found and to allow for those who have complained to have their replies published in conjunction with the inquiry results(by giving them prepublication access to the findings and discussion) so as to somewhat document whether anything was actually accomplished. There needs to be some independence of investigation from the hierarchy or, I for one will no longer believe what the Church says particularly about the topic of my favorite discussions.

My background is science, having worked in a lab for over ten years. When my results were questioned, as they were when I first began working, I had no problem with their evaluation or being questioned in defense of my work. This is the attitude that engenders trust. Sealed investigations engender mistrust, particularly if the investigations are carried out by collegues of those questioned.

In my case specifically I have never seen any whisp of an attempt to examine my many, many charges of corruption. The exception would be, and I have mentioned it here so that I show I attempt at least to be unbiased, that the Roman Court decision in the second instance ruled exactly opposite what the American Court ruled AND the Roman court cited my direct testimony(and other's I presume who were aware), which was pointedly NEVER cited in the first decision and in fact was pointedly never addressed in spite of my frequent written and oral pressure to investigate the perjury my wife and her sponsoring cleric were testifying to, in writing.

The failure to address directly falsified written testimony is EXTREMELY SERIOUS for a Church legal inquiry NOT TO ADDRESS AND PUNISH. This is what remains the case, since the perjury was first made known to the Church in April of 1991. It is particularly SERIOUS since it has been known, or the allegations of the falsehood have been known, since BEFORE there was a Joinder of the Issues, which is the point at which their is or is not a case. Meaning, if there is no case, a petition is rejected before or without a joinder of the issues. It would have meant and end to the case in 1991, since the primary, and only other direct witness, beside myself, to many of the circumstances would have, correctly, been denied her testimony after her perjury was proven. There is and was no case without my wife's testimony. Most of the witnesses were my witnesses(family and godparents)who testified in favor of the sacrament. Every godparent who testified, testified in favor of the sacrament.

My wife, then pregnant, married her lover in April 1992, if I recall correctly, when the state of her pregnancy could no longer be easily concealed. She lost that child due to a spontaneous abortion(miscarriage). The joinder of the issues was held in August 1992(meaning the case was accepted and had to be decided) and her first child born from this adultery was delivered 9 months later, after the case was safely in the hands of the Judicial Vicar who had refused to address the perjury and who eventually granted the American decision in favor of nullity.

Kiwi,

this is an aside but I wanted to show how and what was going on and how the interplay with the behavior's of the Church are related.

I know and have heard of numerous other instances(and certainly there are many in my case) where actions of the Church directly impact and influence sexual, marital and legal behavior of people in these cases and show exactly WHY the failure of the Church to respond to action and allegations of petitioners and respondents is scandalous.

This is why, I believe it is hush, hush. If the real facts were known the scandal would be incredulous. But we will likely never know. Except for those of us who continue to live being persecuted by the Church and its actions in support of those who abuse marriage.

When the rank and file do not care to look at the facts, there will NEVER be justice in the Church. THAT IS THE POINT HERE KIWI!

Karl

-- KARL (PARKERKAJWEN@HOTMAIL.COM), July 07, 2003.

Hey there,

Is this the thread where we're introducing ourselves to Thomas?

Has anybody missed me? Well, I've missed all of you!

Anyway, Thomas, I'm a cradle Catholic Mom (and recently became a gramma, too!) I just love the people posting here...kinda like long, lost relatives I've never personally met.

Gail is absolutely correct about Theresa, she exudes holiness and humility. John and Paul are each the epitomy of orthodoxy, and Emerald--dear Emerald--is oh, so clever and devout. I could go on and on, but my internet time is limited--I have teenagers!

Skoobouy, great to see you posting here, too!

They're all true friends...They'll do their best to share sound, Catholic advice, offer prayers at a moment's notice, tell some of the funniest clean jokes you've ever heard, and if you fall into serious sin or error, they'll cut ya to ribbons! lol.

No, they won't...but they won't sugar coat wrong doing, either.

God Bless, and welcome!

Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), July 07, 2003.