THOSE THAT BELIEVE THEY ARE SAVED, BUT LIVE IN DISOBEDIENCE AND REBELLION TO THE BIBLE, REFUSING TO DO THE WILL OF GOD, DECEIVE THEMSELVESgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
GOD LOVES YOU. JESUS STANDS AT THE DOOR OF YOUR HEART, KNOCKING. IF YOU WILL OPEN THE DOOR, HE WILL COME IN. THOSE THAT BELIEVE THEY ARE SAVED—BUT LIVE IN DISOBEDIENCE AND REBELLION TO THE BIBLE, REFUSING TO DO THE WILL OF GOD—DECEIVE THEMSELVES. God tells us, FEAR THE LORD, AND DEPART FROM EVIL-Pv 3:7. HE THAT IS NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME-Mt 12:30. FOR THE TIME WILL COME (which is now) WHEN TH
-- (), July 05, 2003
Dear Michael,This may indeed be true of "those who believe they are saved". However, you are posting this message on the wrong forum. This is a Catholic forum. No-one here thinks he is already "saved". That belief belongs to manmade Protestant tradition. Catholics believe the Bible, which tells us clearly and repeatedly that no-one is saved while they still walk this earth, and that no-one will be saved until he breathes his final breath.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.
Stop spreading that false message of "God is Love". That's why we get gays and lesbians saying that God loves them and won't send them to hell for living in a life style of sin.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 05, 2003.
"Stop spreading that false message of "God is Love"."Dear David,
That "false message" is the Word of God. (1 John 4:16) The fact that it may be misinterpreted by homosexuals to fit their particular agenda is no different from your misinterpreting it to fit your personal agenda. Just another example of the unreliability of private interpretation.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.
I did not say God is not love, but he has other attributes. The greatest attribute God possesses, and all others hang on this one, is holiness!
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 05, 2003.
What ever happened to the powerful and wrathful God of the Bible? I tell you what happened, he's been replaced by a 'cuddly weepy wimp of an imposter', the Oprah Jesus.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 05, 2003.
Obviously, David, you do not fear God. It is time for you to get your act together and show respect for God, Jesus, and yourself by showing respect to the people in this forum, who do have a fear of God.As for me, if you continue with your hatred, I will stop any and all conversations with you, David.
rod. . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.
Hi Christian Soldier.I read the Bible everyday and I also read conflicting commentaries on the Scriptures. The common person can come up with their own interpretations or adopt those of their particular church, which also contradict themselves. Also, I have learned that the Scripture may initially appear to mean one thing, but through true research I found that there were circumstances to make the Scripture mean something entirely different. We have to know exactly who the Scriptures are talking to or the reason behind certain messages. The Scriptures, at times, can be taken literally or fundamentally, while at other times, and can also be taken symbolically or figuratively. I have noticed that many references are being made with the Old Testament, but not studied in comparison or contrast the the New Testament, which brings new light to the Scriptures and the message.
Why not make the attempt to find how Catholics understand the Bible and worship God? I think that you will find answers that may enlighten you or , as you choose, answers that you may ignore. The choice is yours, as Jesus made that clear.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.
RodYou are absolutely right when you say there is so much doctrine out there and you don't know what to believe. I should be ashamed because I make it seem like I am Mr. know it all. We should be very careful who we listen to and what we read. Honestly I can not take any credit of what I do understand. I have to give God all the Glory. Some how some way supernaturally and you just have to take my word on this, when God saves an individual, HE gives them a new resurrected soul. (the Bible also explains this)
The Spirit actually lives in you. I don't have any supernatural powers, it's not like that. In the beginning you can't really tell if you became saved, but this incredible peace comes over you and almost every dirty habit that came natural to you suddenly the opposite takes place. In a way, you do not have to force or condition yourself not to commit sins.
Don't get me wrong, I am not perfect because my new soul lives in a sin cursed body which are both in conflict with each other. St Paul under the inspiration of God, explains it good, he called it a thorn in the flesh. So it starts off with this incredible hunger for the Word of God and an intense desire to do HIS will, but we start off as babes drinking milk. But the Spirit in you continues to guide you to all truth. The thing is God speaks to us through the Bible and how else are we to know which doctrine is faithful or not?
Owning the BIBLE is an incredible honor and privledge to read. How lucky are we to actually read and begin to understand ALMIGHTY GOD! "The WORD became flesh!" Today we are so blessed because we have the complete prophecy of God. "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord!" I tremble before the word of God! How many people you know in church that teach, actually tremble before the Bible? Probably none because they made themselves god over the Bible.
Just keep in mind, God speaks in parables and just because you read something, it doesn't mean what it actually says. Unless you have compared scripture with scripture to come up with a harmonious answer. God is spiritual and we need to understand the spiritual messages of the Bible. But the problem is if God is not giving you eyes to see you will have to continue trusting in you church and let man think for you. If you don't allow the Bible rule over you and approach it with fear and trembling, in a hummbling way, then you will never come to truth.
As the Spirit continues to guide you and you are ready to eat meat then God begins to help you dissern other spirits. I tell you the truth the only reason I am not part of a church, is because 99% of them have man made doctrines that are contrary to what the Bible teaches. Most of them are a grace plus works gospel. I listen to many teachers and preachers today and I am ammazed how far away they are from the truth. Please I am not boasting because it is the Holy Spirit that allows me to understand many truths. But I still have a lot to learn, the Bible is definitely the infinite wisdom of God.
My point is, if you own a Bible and you can't trust this ammazing infallible Book as if God is speaking to then why read it. Do you think man is perfect? You can't find one doctrine in your church that disagrees with the Bible? Only God is true. If I make mistakes I will correct myself and let people know I was wrong.
May God give you wisdom.....God Bless
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.
Thanks Paul.C.S.
Understanding the Bible and trusting the Bible are two different things. I trust the Bible, but I do not have a perfect understanding for what it means.
You share the same feelings of sanctity that most Catholics I've met have. But, to imply that we are without sin is a bit too far to assume. Why else would St. Paul write to the Corinthians and so forth? Man falls, so must confess and repent because he is human. There are limits to his repentance, which we should be very careful of if we wish to stay in God's grace.
If you truly believe and practice what the Bible teaches, why then have you not left your family, house, and wife to pursue "the kingdom of God"? Have you? I can't. It is just too difficult. Afterall, this is what Jesus wanted of His Apostles. So, what meaning does this Scripture have in the Bible? What does it really mean for us, or was it meant only for His Apostles?
Have you drunk any poisons lately, or played with poisonous snakes? Is the Book of Mark really saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you become immune to those things? Or, should we really study the history behind the Book of Mark for answers? Oh, wait, this we mean looking outside of the Bible.
Which Bible and which version of the Bible do you put all of your faith in? Have you seen an early version of the Revised New Translation, 1882? That Bible contains the Books that were taken out, but it was used in a Protestant church. Why?
How can anyone know that the Holy Spirit has entered them? Many men have their ideas, but which one is real? How can I know that the Holy Spirit hasn't already pointed me in the right direction? Well, for me, I see many things becoming clearer. I can see error and falshoods a little more clearer, but I can also see the truth.
When I hear of a "man crying in the wilderness", such as you, I know that the likelihood of truth may not be 100% genuine. Some of what you preach is the truth, but only small portions. I also look for the man who is Christ-like. Christ didn't try to force anything on his children. So, my advice to you is the same as I give to others, use a different approach. Learn and share. Don't attack. Be like Christ. If what YOU preach is the truth, your doctrine will stand and triumph.
Oh, and the "works" that you are doing are a little off, but you are doing "works" of faith. I have learned "...what is faith without works". Please don't say that "works" don't matter; your example is quite evident that you believe in "works", eventhough you don't call it that.
C.S., keep your faith, but trim a little off the edges.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 05, 2003.
The Apocryphal books themselves make no claim of being Scripture. There are a number of places in the Apocrypha in which the statement is made that the days of the prophets were gone (cf. 1 Maccabees 4:46; 9:27).
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 05, 2003.
We have no apocryphal books in the Holy Bible. The books which the ''reformers'' removed (without authority) are the Deutero-canonicals. The Apocrypha is a collection of holy writings which the Church didn't approve as inspired. The Deutero-canonical books, including both Machabees, ARE inspired. That's why, to this day, they are part of the canon. Approved by Christ's Holy Church.It doesn't matter what other sects think, because all authority rests with the Catholic Church, not with protestant sectarians. The authority is granted her by Jesus Christ.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 05, 2003.
There are NO books in the Bible which make a claim to be scriptural. How could there be, since the writers, at the time they were writing, didn't know that what they were writing would later be considered scripture?? Do you think Paul sat down and said "I think I'll write a chapter of the Bible today"? Of course not. He said "Those guys in Thessalonica are having some problems. I can't go visit them right now, so I better write them a letter". It is the Church which, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, discerned which of the hundreds of writings from New Testament times would go into the Bible and be considered Scripture. The final, infallible proclamation of the Holy Catholic Church regarding the canon of scripture is the ONLY means any human being has of knowing what is the written Word of God and what isn't. The so-called deuterocanonical books were included in the canon. That fact, and that fact alone, makes them scripture. The gospels of Philip, James, Peter, and hundreds of other writings were not included. That fact makes them non-scriptural. There is no other criterion. If you accept books which were not included in the canon, for whatever reason, you no longer have the Bible. If you reject books which were included in the canon, for whatever reason, you no longer have the Bible - and all of the books you do accept are now suspect. If the Church could make a mistake on seven books (or ten, if you include all the books Luther actually wanted to remove), then its choices were not infallible, and therefore there can be no certainty about any book of the Bible.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 05, 2003.
Paul,I'm sorry, I cannot imagine St Paul saying...
'Those guys...'!
That's taking speaking in the vernacular to the extreme!
:-)
God bless
Sara
p.s. great post, point well made.
-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), July 05, 2003.
Why the Apocrypha is not inspired.
Not one of them is in the Hebrew language like the rest of the Old Testament books.
Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.
These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian church.
They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves. For example, in the Books of Maccabees alone, Antiochus Epiphanes dies three times in three places!
It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.
Ok, so you want to hide the truth from people Paul? Tell me what I did wrong again. What 'anti-catholic' statement did I make now? Everything I say is 'anti-catholic' (i.e. The bible is final authority, pray to God only, the rapture, figurative language.) Tell me Paul, or atleast let the others read it before deleting it.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 05, 2003.
Hi David.I'm curious about something. Did you read each of the books yourself or did someone tell what to think about these books?
You really should make the attempt to read the Deuterocanonical Books.
rod. . . . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yaoo.com), July 05, 2003.
David, I don't know where you're getting your information, but the deuterocanicals were part of the GREEK SEPTUAGINT which was the text extant during Christ's time. Yes, the Jews did oppose the deuterocanicals, as they did the NEW TESTAMENT around 200 A.D. SO WHAT? If we were to commit to their canon, WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE N.T. EITHER!!!Here are some quotes the various leaders of the early church. Note the dates. I only cut and pasted those going up to the year 400, since that was your claim.
"Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. 'Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? or, Who shall resist the power of His strength?'[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. 'The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.'[Ps. 19:1-3]" Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5(c A.D. 80),in ANF,I:12
"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because 'alms delivers from death.'[Tobit 4:10,12:9] Be all of you subject one to another?[1 Pt 5:5] having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles,'[1 Pt 2:12] that ye may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed![Isa 52:5] Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct. Polycarp,To the Phillipians,10(A.D. 135),in ANF,I:35
" 'Be just in your judgement':[Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. 'Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving'[Sirach 4:31]" Didache,4:3-5(A.D. 140),in ACW,VI:17
"Melito to his brother Onesimus, greeting: Since thou hast often, in thy zeal for the word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour and concerning our entire faith, and hast also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient book, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing thy zeal for the faith, and thy desire to gain information in regard to the word, and knowing that thou, in thy yearning after God, esteemest these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation. Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song off Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." Melito of Sardes,Fragment in Eusebius' Ecclesiatical History,4:26 (A.D. 177),in NPNF2,I:206
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 05, 2003.
Here's some more:"[New Testament books...] The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John--or bearing the name of John--are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour." Muratorian Fragment(A.D. 200),in ANF,V:603-604
"What, then, again says the prophet? 'The assembly of the wicked surrounded me; they encompassed me as bees do a honeycomb,'[Ps. 22:17,118:12] and 'upon my garment they cast lots.'[Ps. 22:19] Since, therefore, He was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, His suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against Israel, 'Woe to their soul, because they have counselted an evil counsel against themselves,[Isa. 3:9] saying, Let us bind the just one, because he is displeasing to us.'[Wisdom 2:12] And Moses also says to them, 'Behold these things, saith the Lord God: Enter into the good land which the Lord sware [to give] to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and inherit ye it, a land flowing with milk and honey.'[Ex. 33:1, Lev. 20:24]" Epistle of Barnabas,6(A.D. 74),in ANF,I:140
"And when these things are done, he says, 'God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth.'[Isa. 6:12] 'And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.'[Isa. 65:21] For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: 'And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,' And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, "Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.'[Baruch(reckoned as part of Jeremiah) 4:36-5:9]" Irenaeus,Against Heresies,V:35:1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:565
"Those, however, who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts, and, do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt towards others, and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat, and work evil deeds in secret, saying, 'No man sees us,' shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance (secundum gloriam), nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words, to be found in Daniel the prophet: 'O thou seed of Canaan, and not of Judah, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust perverted thy heart.'[Daniel 13:56-Susanna] Thou that art waxen old in wicked days, now thy sins which thou hast committed aforetime are come to light; for thou hast pronounced false judgments, and hast been accustomed to condemn the innocent, and to let the guilty go free, albeit the Lord saith, The innocent and the righteous shalt thou not slay.'[Daniel 13:52-53-Susanna] Of whom also did the Lord say: "But if the evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to smite the man-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.' [Matt 24:48] " Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV:26:3(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:497
"For, when one reads of God as being 'the searcher and witness of the heart;'[Wisdom 1:6] when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, 'Why think ye evil in your hearts?'[Matt 9:4] when David prays 'Create in me a clean heart, O God,'[Ps 51:12] and Paul declares, 'With the heart man believeth unto righteousness,'[Romans 10:10] and John says, 'By his own heart is each man condemned;'[1 John 3:20] when, lastly, 'he who looketh on a woman so as to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart,'[Matt 5:28]--then both points are cleared fully up, that there is a directing faculty of the soul..." Tertullian,On the Soul,15(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:194
"Our instruction comes from 'the porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.'[Wisdom 1:1]" Tertullian,Prescription Against the Heretics,7(A.D. 200),in ANF,III:246
"For they remembered also the words of Jeremias writing to those over whom that captivity was impending: 'And now ye shall see borne upon (men's) shoulders the gods of the Babylonians, of gold and silver and wood, causing fear to the Gentiles. Beware, therefore, that ye also do not be altogether like the foreigners, and be seized with fear while ye behold crowds worshipping those gods before and behind, but say in your mind, Our duty is to worship Thee, O Lord.'[Baruch 6:3] Therefore, having got confidence from God, they said, when with strength of mind they set at defiance the king' s threats against the disobedient: 'There is no necessity for our making answer to this command of yours. For our God whom we worship is able to deliver us from the furnace of fire and from your hands; and then it will be made plain to you that we shall neither serve your idol, nor worship your golden image which you have set up.'[Daniel 3:16]" Tertullian,Scorpiace,8(A.D. 205),in ANF,III:246
"At this stage some rise up, saying that the Lord, by reason of the rod, and threatening, and fear, is not good; misapprehending, as appears, the Scripture which says, 'And he that feareth the Lord will turn to his heart;'[Sirach 21:6] and most of all, oblivious of His love, in that for us He became man. For more suitably to Him, the prophet prays in these words: 'Remember us, for we are dust;'[Ps 103:14] that: is, Sympathize with us; for Thou knowest from personal experience of suffering the weakness of the flesh. In this respect, therefore, the Lord the Instructor is most good and unimpeachable, sympathizing as He does from the exceeding greatness of His love with the nature of each man. 'For there is nothing which the Lord hates.'[Wisdom 11:24] For assuredly He does not hate anything, and yet wish that which He hates to exist Nor does He wish anything not to exist, and yet become the cause of existence to that which He wishes not to exist. Nor does He wish anything not to exist which yet exists. If, then, the Word hates anything, He does not wish it to exist. But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, 'In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.'[John 1:1]" Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:225
"And again He says, 'Come all to Me, who labour, and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest;'[Matt 11:28] and that which is added the Lord speaks in His own person. And very clearly He calls to goodness by Solomon, when He says, 'Blessed is the man who hath found wisdom, and the mortal who hath found understanding.'[Prov 3:13] 'For the good is found by him who seeks it, and is wont to be seen by him who has found it.'[Prov 2:4,5;3:15] By Jeremiah, too, He sets forth prudence, when he says, 'Blessed are we, Israel; for what is pleasing to God is known by us'[Baruch 4:4]--and it is known by the Word, by whom we are blessed and wise. For wisdom and knowledge are mentioned by the same prophet, when he says, 'Hear, O Israel, the commandments of life, and give ear to know understanding.'[Baruch 3:9] By Moses, too, by reason of the love He has to man, He promises a gift to those who hasten to salvation. For He says, 'And I will bring you into the good land, which the Lord sware to your fathers.' [Deut 31:20]" Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:8(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:232-233
"[H]aving heard the Scripture which says, 'Fasting with prayer is a good thing.'[Tobit 12:8]" Clement of Alexandria,The Stromata,6:12(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:503
"But they said, 'We will not come forth: neither will we do the king's commandment; we will die in our innocency: and he slew of them a thousand souls.'[1 Macc 2:33] The things, therefore, which were spoken to the blessed Daniel are fulfilled: 'And my servants shall be afflicted, and shall fall by famine, and by sword, and by captivity.'[Dan. 11:33] Daniel, however, adds: 'And they shall be holpen with a little help.' For at that time Matthias arose, and Judas Maccabaeus, and helped them, and delivered them from the hand of the Greeks." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,2:32(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:183
"What is narrated here, happened at a later time, although it is placed before the first book (at the beginning of the book[of Daniel]. For it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings....To all these things, therefore, we ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest any one be overtaken in any transgression, and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the Judge of all; and the Word Himself is the Eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,6:1,61(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:191,194
" 'For even now the angel of God.' He shows also, that when Susannah prayed to God, and was heard, the angel was sent then to help her, just as was the case in the instance of Tobias[Tobit 3:17] and Sara. For when they prayed, the supplication of both of them was heard in the same day and the same hour, and the angel Raphael was sent to heal them both." Hippolytus,Commentary on Daniel,6:55(A.D. 204),in ANF,V:193
" '[T]he prophet says, "The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright," that is, about Christ, "Let us lie in wait for the righteous, because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraideth us with our offending the law, and professeth to have knowledge of God; and he calleth himself the Child of God.'[Wisdom 2:1,12,13] And then he says, 'He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed.[Wisdom 2:15,16]" Hippolytus,Against the Jews,65(ante A.D. 235),in ANF,V:218-9
"But the case stands not thus; for the Scriptures do not set forth the matter in this manner. But they make use also of other testimonies, and say, Thus it is written: 'This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant (son), and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men.'[Baruch 3:25-38]" Hippolytus,Against the Noetus,2(A.D. 210),in ANF,V:224
" 'It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two; corresponding with the number of their letters.' Farther on he says: 'The twenty-two books of the Hebrews are the following: That which is called by us Genesis, but by the Hebrews, from the beginning of the book, Bresith, which means, 'In the beginning'; Exodus, Welesmoth, that is, 'These are the names'; Leviticus, Wikra, 'And he called'; Numbers, Ammesphekodeim; Deuteronomy, Eleaddebareim, ' These are the words'; Jesus, the son of Nave, Josoue ben Noun; Judges and Ruth, among them in one book, Saphateim; the First and Second of Kings, among them one, Samouel, that is, 'The called of God'; the Third and Fourth of Kings in one, Wammelch David, that is, 'The kingdom of David'; of the Chronicles, the First and Second in one, Dabreiamein, that is, 'Records of days'; Esdras, First and Second in one, Ezra, that is, 'An assistant'; the book of Psalms, Spharthelleim; the Proverbs of Solomon, Me-loth; Ecclesiastes, Koelth; the Song of Songs (not, as some suppose, Songs of Songs), Sir Hassirim; Isaiah, Jessia; Jeremiah, with Lamentations and the epistle in one, Jeremia[Baruch 6]; Daniel, Daniel; Ezekiel, Jezekiel; Job, Job; Esther, Esther. And besides these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel." Origen,Canon of the Hebrews,Fragment in Eusebius' Church History,6:25 [A.D. 244],in NPNF2,I:272
"In all these cases consider whether it would not be well to remember the words, 'Thou shalt not remove the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set.' Nor do I say this because I shun the labour of investigating the Jewish Scriptures, and comparing them with ours, and noticing their various readings. This, if it be not arrogant to say it, I have already to a great extent done to the best of my ability, labouring hard to get at the meaning in all the editions and various readings; while I paid particular attention to the interpretation of the Seventy, lest I might to be found to accredit any forgery to the Churches which are under heaven, and give an occasion to those who seek such a starting-point for gratifying their desire to slander the common brethren, and to bring some accusation against those who shine forth in our community." Origen,To Africanus,5(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387 In Origen's epistle to Julius Africanus he defends the canonicity of Susanna [Daniel 13], Bel and the Dragon[Daniel 14], the prayers of Azarias[Daniel 3], and the hymn of praise of the three youths in the fiery furnace[Daniel 3].
"And I make it my endeavour not to be ignorant of their various readings, lest in my controversies with the Jews I should quote to them what is not found in their copies, and that I may make some use of what is found there, even although it should not be in our Scriptures. For if we are so prepared for them in our discussions, they will not, as is their manner, scornfully laugh at Gentile believers for their ignorance of the true reading as they have them." Origen,To Africanus,5(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387
"[A]s is written in the book of Tobit: 'It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God,'[Tobit 12:7]--in a way consistent with truth and God's glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude." Origen,Against Celsus,5:19(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:551
"But he ought tp know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, 'The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense,'[Sirach 21:18] and have learnt 'to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us.'[1 Pt 3:15] " Origen,Against Celsus,7:12(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:615
"But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, ' ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist.'[2 Maccabees 7:28]" Origen,Fundamental Principles,2:2(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:270
"[T]he Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: "For thy almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions.'[Wisdom 11:17]" Origen,Fundamental Principles,2:2(A.D. 230),in ANF,IV:270
"And, forsooth, when we notice such things, we are forthwith to reject as spurious the copies in use in our Churches, and enjoin the brotherhood to put away the sacred books current among them, and to coax the Jews, and persuade them to give us copies which shall be untampered with, and free from forgery! Are we to suppose that that Providence which in the sacred Scriptures has ministered to the edification of all the Churches of Christ, had no thought for those bought with a price, for whom Christ died." Origen,To Africanus,4(ante A.D. 254),in ANF,IV:387
"For since it is written, 'God did not make death, neither hath He pleasure in the destruction of the living,'[Wisdom 1:13]" Cyprian,Epistle 51/55:22(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:333
"[T]his the faith of the sacred Scripture assures us, and in telling us how such as these prayed, gives an example which we ought to follow in our prayers, in order that we may be such as they were: 'Then these three,' it says, 'as if from one mouth sang an hymn, and blessed the Lord.'[3 Youths-Daniel 3:51]" Cyprian,Treatise 4,8(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:449
"And thus Holy Scripture instructs us, saying, 'Prayer is good with fasting and almsgiving.'[Tobit 12:8] Cyprian,Treatise 4,32(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:456
"Holy Scripture teaches and forewarns, saying, 'My son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in righteousness and fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation.'[Sirach 2:1,4] And again: 'In pain endure, and in thy humility have patience; for gold and silver is tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.'[Sirach 2:5]" Cyprian,Treatise 7,9(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:471
"Also in Daniel: 'There was a man dwelling in Babylon whose name was Joachim; and he took a wife by name Susanna, the daughter of Helchias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared the Lord. And her parents were righteous, and taught their daughter according to the law of Moses.'[Susanna-Daniel 13:1-3]. Moreover, in Daniel: 'And we are lowly this day in all the earth because of our sins, and there is not at this time any prince, or prophet, or leader, or burnt- offering, or oblation, or sacrifice, or incense, or place to sacrifice before Thee, and to find mercy from Thee. And yet in the soul and spirit of lowliness let us be accepted as the burnt- offerings of rams and bulls, and as it were many thousands of lambs which are fattest. If our offering may be made in Thy presence this day, their power shall be consumed, for they shall not be ashamed who put their trust in Thee. And now we follow with our whole heart, and we fear and seek Thy face. Give us not over unto reproach, but do with us according to Thy tranquillity, and according to the multitude of Thy mercy deliver us.'[3 Youths-Daniel 3:37-43]" Cyprian,Testimonies,20(ante A.D. 258),in ANF,V:540
"In the Gospel according to John: 'No one can receive anything, except it were given him from heaven.'[John 3:27] Also in the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: 'For what hast thou that thou hast not received? But if thou hast received it, why boastest thou, as if thou hadst not received it?'[1 Cor 4:7] Also in the first of Kings: 'Boast not, neither speak lofty things, and let not great speeches proceed out of your mouth, for the Lord is a God of knowledge.'[1 Sam 2:4] Also in the same place: 'The bow of the mighty men has been made weak, and the weak are girt about with strength.'[1 Sam 2:5] Of this same thing in the Maccabees: 'It is just to be subjected to God, and that a mortal should not think things equal to God.'[2 Macc 9:12] Also in the same place: 'And fear not the words of a man that is a sinner, because his glory shall be filth and worms. Today he shall be lifted up, and to-morrow he shall not be found; because he is turned into his earth, and his thought has perished.'[1 Macc 2:62,63] " Cyprian,Treatises,12:3:4(A.D. 248),in ANF,V:533
"In Genesis: 'And God, tempted Abraham, and said to him, Take thy only son whom thou lovest, Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell thee.'[Gen 22:1,2] Of this same thing in Deuteronomy: 'The Lord your God proveth you, that He may know if ye love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul.'[Deut 13:3] Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon: 'Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality; and having been in few things distressed, yet in many things they shall be happily ordered, because God tried them, and found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace He proved them, and as a burnt-offering He received them. And in their time there shall be respect of them; they shall judge the nations, and shall rule over the people; and their Lord shall reign for ever.'[Wisdom 3:4-8] Of this same thing in the Maccabees: 'Was not Abraham found faithful in temptation, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness?'[1 Macc 2:52]" Cyprian,Treatises,12:3:15(A.D. 248),in ANF,V:537
"[T]hat they worship Him alone, saying: 'O king Nebuchodonosor, there is no need for us to answer thee in this matter. For the God whom we serve is able to deliver us out of the furnace of burning fire; and He will deliver us from thy hands, O king. And if not, be it known unto thee, that we do not serve thy gods, and we do not adore the golden image which thou hast set up.'[Dan 3:16-18] And Daniel, devoted to God, and filled with the Holy Spirit, exclaims and says: 'I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who founded the heaven and the earth.'[Dan 14:5 Bel & Dragon] Tobias also, although under a royal and tyrannical slavery, yet in feeling and spirit free, maintains his confession to God, and sublimely announces both the divine power and majesty, saying: 'In the land of my captivity I confess to Him, and I show forth His power in a sinful nation.'[Tobit 13:6]" Cyprian,Treatises,11:11(A.D. 257),in ANF,V:503
"But listen to the divine oracles: 'The works of the Lord are in judgment; from the beginning, and from His making of them, He disposed the parts thereof. He garnished His works for ever, and their principles unto their generations.'[Sirach 16:24-25]" Dionysius the Great,On Nature,3(ante A.D. 265),in ANF,VI:86
"He is a Spirit--for says He, 'God is a Spirit'[John 4:24]--fittingly again is Christ called Breath; for 'He,' saith He, 'is the breath of God's power.'[Wisdom 7:25]" Dionysius the Great,To Dionsyius of Rome,4(ante A.D. 265),in ANF,VI:92
"Solomon also shows that it is the Word of God, and no other, by whose hands these works of the world were made. 'I,' He says, 'came forth out of the mouth of the Most High before all creatures: I caused the light that faileth not to arise in the heavens, and covered the whole earth with a cloud. I have dwelt in the height, and my throne is in the pillar of the cloud.'[Sirach 24:3-5]" Lactanius,Institutions,4:8(A.D. 310),in ANF,VII:107
"Therefore, I do not think men ought to be considered pious who presume to investigate this subject, in disobedience to the injunction, 'Seek not what is too difficult for thee, neither enquire into what is too high for thee.'[Sirach 3:21] For if the knowledge of many other things incomparably inferior is beyond the capacity of the human mind, and cannot therefore be attained, as has been said by Paul, 'Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared far them that lave Him'[1 Cor 2:9], and as God also said to Abraham, that the stars could not be numbered by him; and it is likewise said,' Who shall number the grains of sand by the sea-shore, or the drops of rain?'[Sirach 1:2]" Alexander of Alexandria,To brother Alexander, fragment in Theodoret of Cyrus' Ecclesiastical History,1:3(A.D. 324),in NPNF2,III:37
"For this was accomplished at that time, when the venerable and aged Eleazar was slain, and the sons of the blessed Samuna, seven in number,[ref 2 Maccabees 6:18-31] and when Judas (Maccabeus) and his brethren were struggling on behalf of their people[ref 2 Maccabees 5:27]" Aphraates the Persian Sage,Demonstrations,5:19(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,XIII:359
"He leads away to himself the wealthy, the sons of luxury; And 'they leave their possessions as the waves of the sea.'[Sirach 29:17]" Aphraates the Persian Sage,Demonstrations,22:7(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,XIII:404
"Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if thou art desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them. For of the Law the books of Moses are the first five, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. And next, Joshua the son of Nave, and the book of Judges, including Ruth, counted as seventh. And of the other historical books, the first and second books of the Kings are among the Hebrews one book; also the third and fourth one book. And in like manner, the first and second of Chronicles are with them one book; and the first and second of Esdras are counted one. Esther is the twelfth book; and these are the Historical writings. But those which are written in verses are five, Job, and the book of Psalms, and Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs, which is the seventeenth book. And after these come the five Prophetic books: of the Twelve Prophets one book, of Isaiah one, of Jeremiah one, including Baruch[1-5] and Lamentations and the Epistle[of Jeremiah-Baruch 6]; then Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel, the twenty- second of the Old Testament." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,4:33(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:27
"The Divine Nature then it is impossible to see with eyes of flesh: but from the works, which are Divine, it is possible to attain to some conception of His power, according to Solomon, who says, 'For by the greatness and beauty of the creatures proportionably the Maker of them is seen'[Wisdom 13:5]. He said not that from the creatures the Maker is seen, but added proportionably. For God appears the greater to every man in proportion as he has grasped a larger survey of the creatures: and when his heart is uplifted by that larger survey, he gains withal a greater conception of God. Wouldest thou learn that to comprehend the nature of God is impossible? The Three Children in the furnace of fire, as they hymn the praises of God, say 'Blessed art thou that beholdest the depths, and sittest upon the Cherubim'[Daniel 3:55-Three Youths]." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,9:2,3(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:51
"[L]earn from this instance the mightiness of God: for 'He hath numbered the drops of rain'[Job 26:27], which have been poured down on all the earth, not only now but in all time. The sun is a work of God, which, great though it be, is but a spot in comparison with the whole heaven; first gaze stedfastly upon the sun, and then curiously scan the Lord of the sun. 'Seek not the things that are too deep for thee, neither search out the things that are above thy strength: what is commanded thee, think thereupon'[Sirach 3:20,21]." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,6:4(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:34
"Hear the Prophet saying, 'This is our God, none other shall be accounted of in comparison with Him. He hath found out every way of knowledge, and given it to Jacob His servant, and to Israel His beloved. Afterwards He[she] was seen on earth, and conversed among men'[Baruch 3:36-38]." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,9:15(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:68
"He says to Daniel; young though thou be, convict old men infected with the sins of youth; for it is written, 'God raised up the Holy Spirit upon a young stripling'[Daniel 13:45-Susanna]" Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,16:31(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:123
"For when they speak against the ascension of the Saviour, as being impossible, remember the account of the carrying away of Habakkuk: for if Habakkuk was transported by an Angel, being carried by the hair of his head[Daniel 14-Bel & the Dragon], much rather was the Lord of both Prophets and Angels, able by His own power to make His ascent into the Heavens on a cloud from the Mount of Olives." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,14:25(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:101
"[T]he Old Testament is reckoned as consisting of twenty-two books...so that of Moses there be five books...with the Lamentations and the Letter[Baruch 6-Epistle of Jeremiah], and Daniel...bringing the number of the books to twenty-two. It is to be noted also that by adding to these Tobias and Judith, there are twenty-four books, corresponding to the number of letters used by the Greeks." Hilary of Poitiers,Prologue to the Psalms,15(A.D. 365),in JUR, 1:383
"They say that the Father has prescience of all things, as the blessed Susanna says, 'O eternal God, that knowest secrets, and knowest all things before they be'[Daniel 13:42-Susanna]" Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,4:8(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:73
"As you have listened already to Moses and Isaiah, so listen now to Jeremiah inculcating the same truth as they:--'This is our God, and there shall be none other likened unto Him, Who hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He shew Himself upon earth and dwelt among men.'[Baruch 3:36-38] Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,4:42(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:84
"Such suggestions are inconsistent with the clear sense of Scripture. For all things, as the Prophet says[ref 2 Maccabees 7:28], were made out of nothing; it was no transformation of existing things, but the creation into a perfect form of the non-existent." Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,4:16(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:76
"Then, while the devout soul was baffled and astray through its own feebleness, it caught from the prophet's voice this scale of comparison for God, admirably expressed, 'By the greatness of His works and the beauty of the things that He hath made the Creator of worlds is rightly discerned'[Wisdom 13:5]." Hilary of Poitiers,On the Trinity,1:7(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:42
"There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament...But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple. Athanasius,Festal Letters,39:4,7(A.D. 367),in NPNF2,IV:552
"[T]he sacred writers to whom the Son has revealed Him, have given us a certain image from things visible, saying, 'Who is the brightness of His glory, and the Expression of His Person;'[Heb 1:3] and again, 'For with Thee is the well of life, and in Thy light shall we see lights;'[Ps 36:9] and when the Word chides lsrael, He says, 'Thou hast forsaken the Fountain of wisdom;'[Baruch 3:12] and this Fountain it is which says, 'They have forsaken Me the Fountain of living waters'[Jer 2:13]" Athanasius,Defense of the Nicene Faith,2:12(A.D. 351),in NPNF2,IV:158
" And where the sacred writers say, Who exists before the ages,' and 'By whom He made the ages,'[Heb 1:2] they thereby as clearly preach the eternal and everlasting being of the Son, even while they are designating God Himself. Thus, if Isaiah says, 'The Everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth[2];'[Is 40:28] and Susanna said, 'O Everlasting God[3];'[Daniel 13:42-Susanna] and Baruch wrote, 'I will cry unto the Everlasting in my days,' and shortly after, 'My hope is in the Everlasting, that He will save you, and joy is come unto me from the Holy One;'[Baruch 4:20,22]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,1:4(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:313
"[I]t is written that 'all things were made through the Word,' and 'without Him was not made one thing,'[John 1:3] and again, 'One Lord Jesus, through whom are all things,'[1 Cor 8:9] and 'in Him all things consist,'[Col 1:17] it is very plain that the Son cannot be a work, but He is the Hand of God and the Wisdom. This knowing, the martyrs in Babylon, Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, arraign the Arian irreligion. For when they say, 'O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord,'[Daniel 3:57-Three Youths]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,2:71(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:387
"Daniel said to Astyages, 'I do not worship idols made with hands, but the Living God, who hath created the heaven and the earth, and hath sovereignty over all flesh;'[Daniel 14:5-Bel & the Dragon]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,3:30(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:410
"But if this too fails to persuade them, let them tell us themselves, whether there is any wisdom in the creatures or not? If not how is it that the Apostle complains, 'For after that in the Wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God?'[1 Cor 1:21] or how is it if there is no wisdom, that a 'multitude of wise men'[Wisdom 6:24] are found in Scripture? for 'a wise man feareth and departeth from evil;'[Prov 14:16] and 'through wisdom is a house builded;'[Prov 24] and the Preacher says, 'A man's wisdom maketh his face to shine;' and he blames those who are headstrong thus, 'Say not thou, what is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not inquire in wisdom concerning this.'[Eccl 8:1,7:10] But if, as the Son of Sirach says, 'He poured her out upon all His works; she is with all flesh according to His gift, and He hath given her to them that love Him,'[Sirach 1:8,9]" Athanasius,Discourses Against the Arians,2:79(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:391
"[F]or it is written of the other, 'The foolish person will speak foolishness;' [Is 32:6 LXX] but of these, 'Ask counsel of all that are wise.'[Tobit 4:18]" Athanasius,Defense before Constantius,17(A.D. 357),in NPNF2,IV:244
"So as Judith says, 'Thou hast thought, and what things thou didst determine were ready at hand.'[Judith 9:5,6]" Basil,On the Holy Spirit,8:19(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:13
"The Lord ordereth 'all things in measure and weight,'[Wisdom 11:20]" Basil,To Clergy of Samosata,Epistle 219:1(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:260
"What Scripture says is very true, 'As for a fool he changeth as the moon.'[Sirach 27:11] Basil,Hexaemeron,6:10(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,VIII:88
"Standing and sitting, I apprehend, indicate the fixity and entire stability of the nature, as Baruch, when he wishes to exhibit the immutability and immobility of the Divine mode of existence, says, 'For thou sittest for ever and we perish utterly.'[Baruch 3:3]" Basil,On the Holy Spirit,6:15(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:10
"But the Spirit is believed to have been operating at the saint time in Habakkuk and in Daniel at Babylon,[ref Daniel 14:35-Bel & the Dragon] and to have been at the prison with Jeremiah,[ref Jer 20:2] and with Ezekiel at the Chebar.[ref Ez 1:1]" Basil,On the Holy Spirit,23:54(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VIII:35
"The Lord is now making trial of your love for Him. Now there is an opportunity for you, through your patience, to take the martyr's lot. The mother of the Maccabees[ref 2 Maccabees 7] saw the death of seven sons without a sigh, without even shedding one unworthy tear." Basil,To the Wife of Nectarius,Epistle 6:2(A.D. 358),in NPNF2,VIII:115
"[T]he Scripture tells us, 'into the malicious soul Wisdom cannot come.'[Wisdom 1:4]" Gregory of Nyssa,On Virginity,15(A.D. 371),in NPNF2,V:361
"[T]he prophetical writing says, 'knoweth all things before they be,'[Daniel 3:42-Susanna]" Gregory of Nyssa,Against Making of Man,16(A.D. 379),in NPNF2,V:406
"[T]he prophet says, 'was seen upon earth and conversed with men,'[Baruch 3:38]" Gregory of Nyssa,Against Eunomius,6:4(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,V:189
"[I]n the Scripture the 'Seed of the Chaldeans'[Judith 5:6] removed, and the children of Babylon dashed against the Rocks and destroyed." Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 45,2nd Oration on Easter 15(A.D. 383),in NPNF2,VII:428
"And how shall we preserve the truth that God pervades all things and fills all, as it is written 'Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord,'[Jer 23:24] and 'The Spirit of the Lord filleth the world,'[Wisdom 1:7] if God partly contains and partly is contained?" Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 28,2nd Theological 8(A.D. 380),in NPNF2,VII:291
"Passing by the elders in the book of Daniel;[Ref Daniel 13:5- Susanna] for it is better to pass them by, together with the Lord's righteous sentence and declaration concerning them..." Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 2,Flight to Pontus 64(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,VII:218
"Not by raining down manna, as for Israel of old[ref Ex 16:14] or opening the rock, in order to give drink to His thirsting people,[ref Ps 78:24] or feasting her by means of ravens, as Elijah,[ref 1 Kings 17:6] or feeding her by a prophet carried through the air, as He did to Daniel when a-hungered in the den.[ref Daniel 14:33,34-Bel & Dragon]" Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 18,On the Death of his Father 30(A.D. 374),in NPNF2,VII:264
"[T]he just man in the den, restraining the lions' rage,[ref Daniel 6:22] and the struggle of the seven Maccabees,[ref 2 Maccabees 7:1] who were perfected with their father and mother in blood, and in all kinds of tortures. Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 43,Panegyric on Basil 74(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,VII:420
"The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [ie., 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings];Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book. Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,...lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel one book, Osee ... Nahum ... Habacuc ... Sophonias ... Aggeus ... Zacharias ... Malachias ... Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books." Council of Rome,Decree of Pope Damasus(A.D. 382),in DEN,34
"Of the Old Covenant: the five books of Moses--Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; one of Joshua the son of Nun, one of the Judges, one of Ruth, four of the Kings, two of the Chronicles, two of Ezra, one of Esther, one of Judith, three of the Maccabees, one of Job, one hundred and fifty psalms; three books of Solomon--Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; sixteen prophets. And besides these, take care that your young persons learn the Wisdom of the very learned Sirach." Apostolic Constitutions,47:85(A.D. 400),in ANF,VII:505
"And again; 'Do not to another what thou hatest'[Tobit 4:15]" John Chrysostom,Concerning Statues,7(A.D. 387),in NPNF1,IX:428
"Wherefore we must cast out all wickedness from our souls, and never more contrive any deceit; for, saith one, 'To the perverse God sendeth crooked paths [Prov 21:8 LXX]; and, 'The holy spirit of discipline will flee deceit, and remove from thoughts that are without understanding.'[Wisd. 1:5]" John Chrysostom,Homilies on John,41(A.D. 391),in NPNF1,XIV:150
"Let us then repeat to ourselves soothing charms drawn from the holy Scripture, and say, 'Thou art earth and ashes.' 'Why is earth and ashes proud?' [Sirach 10:9], and, 'The sway of his fury shall be his destruction'[Sirach 1:19] and, 'The wrathful man is not comely'[Prov. 11:25 LXX]" John Chrysostom,Homilies on John,48(A.D. 391),in NPNF1,XIV:175
"Elsewhere the Scripture takes the term "old" in the sense of blame; for seeing that the things are of various aspect as being composed of many parts, it uses the same words both in a good and an evil import, not according to the same shade of meaning. Of which you may see an instance in the blame cast elsewhere on the old: [Ps. 17:46 LXX] 'They waxed old, and they halted from their paths.' And again, [Ps. 6:7 LXX] 'I have become old in the midst of all mine enemies.' And again, [Daniel 13:52-Susanna] 'O thou that art become old in evil days.' So also the 'Leaven' is often taken for the kingdom of Heaven, although here found fault with. But in that place it is used with one aspect, and in this with another." John Chrysostom,Homilies on 1st Corinthians,15(A.D. 392),in NPNF1,XII:87
"And to prove that I say not this upon conjecture; when they fell into the furnace, they bewailed themselves after this sort, saying, [Daniel 3:29,33-Three Youths] 'We have sinned, we have done iniquity, we cannot open our mouth.' John Chrysostom,Homilies on 1st Corinthians,18(A.D. 392),in NPNF1,XII:104
"And Baruch in the book of Jeremiah says 'this is our God: no other shall be reckoned by the side of Him: He found out every path of knowledge and gave it to Jacob His servant, and lsrael his beloved. After these things also He appeared upon the earth, and held converse with men.'[Baruch 3:35-37] And David signifying His incarnate presence said 'He shall come down like the rain into a fleece of wool, and like the drop which distills upon the earth'[Ps 72:6] because He noiselessly and gently entered into the Virgin's womb. John Chrysostom,Against Marcionist & Manicheans(ante A.D. 403),in NPNF1,XI:205
"That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture. Item, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis. Exodus. Leviticus. Numbers. Deuteronomy. Joshua the Son of Nun. The Judges. Ruth. The Kings, four books. The Chronicles, two books. Job. The Psalter. The Five books of Solomon. The Twelve Books of the Prophets. Isaiah. Jeremiah. Ezechiel. Daniel. Tobit. Judith. Esther. Ezra, two books. Macchabees, two books." Council of Hippo,Canon 36(A.D. 393),in NPNF2,XIV:453-454
"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus,Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach], twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees." Council of Carthage III,Canon 397(A.D. 397),in DEN,39-40
"Nor do I allege any opinion of my own, but I repeat that which the Holy Spirit spake by the prophet: 'Blessed is the barren that is undefiled.'[Wisdom 3:13]" Ambrose,Concerning Virginity,7:35(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:369
"So then, holy Judith,[Judith 10:3ff] strengthened by lengthened mourning and by daily fasting, sought not the enjoyments of the world regardless of danger, and strong in her contempt for death." Ambrose,Concerning Widows,7:38(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:397
"Daniel also, unless he had received the Spirit of God, would never have been able to discover that lustful adultery, that fraudulent lie. For when Susanna, assailed by the conspiracy of the elders, saw that the mind of the people was moved by consideration for the old men, and destitute of all help, alone amongst men, conscious of her chastity she prayed God to judge; it is written: 'The Lord heard her voice, when she was being led to be put to death, and the Lord raised up the Holy Spirit of a young youth, whose name was Daniel.'[Daniel 13:44,45-Susanna]" Ambrose,On the Holy Spirit,3:6:39(A.D. 381),in NPNF2,X:140
"And the Lord bids them lay aside the garments of mourning, and to cease the groanings of repentance, saying: 'Put off, O Jerusalem, the garment of thy mourning and affliction. and clothe thyself in beauty, the glory which God hath given thee for ever.'[Baruch 5:1]" Ambrose,Concerning Repentance,I:9:43(A.D. 384),in NPNF2,X:336
"Wherefore the Scripture says well: 'A wise man will keep silence until there is opportunity.'[Sirach 20:6]" Ambrose,Duties of the Clergy,I:2:5(A.D. 391),in NPNF2,X:2
"When Jeremiah understood what they wanted he said: 'The spot will remain unknown until God shall gather His people together and be gracious to them. Then God shall reveal these things and the majesty of the Lord shall appear.'[2 Maccabees 2:7]" Ambrose,Duties of the Clergy,III:17:101(A.D. 391),in NPNF2,X:84
"And what safety can there be for us unless we wash away our sins by fasting, since Scripture says that fasting and alms do away sin? [Tobit 12:8,9]" Ambrose,Epistle 63:16(A.D. 396),in NPNF2,X:459
"This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a 'helmeted' introduction to all the books which we now turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom ... the book of ... Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be in Hebrew, the second in Greek, as can be proved from the very style." Jerome,Preface to Samuel and Kings[Prologus Galeatus](A.D. 391),in NPNF2,VI:490
"We have the authentic book of Jesus son of Sirach, and annother pseudepigraphic work, entitled the Wisdom of Solomon. I found the first in Hebrew, with the title, 'Parables', not Ecclesiasticus, as in Latin versions...The second finds no place in Hebrew texts, and its style is redolent of Greek eloquence: a number of ancient writers assert that it is a work of Philo Judaeus. Therefore, just as the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them to the canon of Scripture; so let the Church read these two volumes, for the edification of the people, but not to support the authority of ecclesiastical doctrines." Jerome,Preface to Proverbs,(A.D. 398),in LCF,187
"What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us." Jerome,Against Rufinus,11:33(A.D. 402),in NPNF2,III:517
"At least that is what Solomon says: "wisdom is the gray hair unto men.'[Wisdom 4:9]" Jerome,To Paulinus, Epistle 58(A.D. 395),in VI:119
"[D]oes not the scripture say: 'Burden not thyself above thy power'[Sirach 13:2]?" Jerome,To Eustochium,Epistle 108(A.D. 404),in NPNF2,VI:207
"I would cite the words of the psalmist: 'the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,'[Ps 51:17] and those of Ezekiel 'I prefer the repentance of a sinner rather than his death,'[Ez 18:23] and those of Baruch, 'Arise, arise, O Jerusalem,'[Baruch 5:5] and many other proclamations made by the trumpets of the prophets." Jerome,To Oceanus,Epistle 77:4(A.D. 399),in NPNF2,VI:159
All quotes compiled by Joseph Gallegos.
Here, again, is the text of the council of Carthage canonizing the books of the Bible (taken from a Protestant website)
Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397). The Third Council of Carthage was not a general council but a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. The English text below is from Bruce Metzger. Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.
I apologize for monopolizing the thread like this, but when someone makes the false claims that you do, David, there is only one way to deal with it -- FORCEFULLY!
Gail
P.S. You still haven't admitted that your church teaches unbiblically on "tongues."
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 05, 2003.
Judith speaks of Nebuchadnezzar as reigning in Nineveh instead of Babylon (Judith 1:1). Nineveh was the capital of Assyria, not Babylonia, from about 700BC until its destruction in 612BC.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@prodigy.net), July 06, 2003.
RodIt is good that you feel the way you feel. I started off the same way and my earnest desire to know the truth lead me to research and research and study and study the Bible, very very humbly and in childlike manner asking the Lord I don't know nothing, begging God to teach me and give me understanding. It is the BIBLE that will give you all the answers because it is God speaking to us. It is so perfect that I haven't found one contradiction. When you do not make the Bible your authority, and look for contradictions, believe me God will show you plenty. But truly they aren't contradictions.
Q: "Which Bible and which version of the Bible do you put all of your faith in? Have you seen an early version of the Revised New Translation, 1882? That Bible contains the Books that were taken out, but it was used in a Protestant church. Why? "
A: I read the King James Version because it is the closest translation to the actual scrolls. And the King James Version assigned a number to every word in the scriptures so I can use a concordance to search words and phrases and see its original Hebrew or Greek words so I can test the translation. I can find bad translations just by comparing how God uses words and phrases. I test definitions using the Bible itself.
Every single word and phrase is so perfectly chosen by God that I am so amazed in His infinite wisdom! I do not know much history on the many different denominations, only because I was saved over 3 years ago. And I was a Catholic in my childhood days but had no interest in religion or the Bible. After I became saved, I did search for faithful Bible teaching churches, but after a while my soul was getting bad vibes as if I shouldn't be there. So once I heard something unbiblical taught, I left.
But before making any decision I prayed for wisdom. As I continued to search for faithful ministries I found one who was teaching the "End of the Church Era". I was shocked! I didn't want to believe it. So I studied even harder and checked out their doctrines. Every doctrine was based on scriptures and I began to see this truth very clearly and my soul was at rest again. The thing is, once you have truth you will begin to see these them hidden in all the scriptures, it's amazing!
God speaks in parables, and a parable is an earthly story with a spiritual or heavenly meaning. Every historical account recorded by God was purposely chosen to teach us something about salvation. If God has giving you a new resurrected soul and has opened your spiritual eyes, you will begin to see these spiritual truths only if you understand the salvation of the Bible. I am speaking through experience and I am not trying to spread any falsehood. There could be some newly converts who possibly are still trapped under false teaching. They have not yet been giving milk. So they are not ready for strong meat. This is how the Bible puts it.
Eventually God will not allow this to happen too long so then heavy chastisement occurs in that individual's life, and their souls will begin to get disturbed, and they will not be at ease. Under the hearing of false doctrine is the poison you are referring to which isn’t a literal interpretation. God is teaching us spiritual truths, which speaks about His salvation program. If you are one of God's Elect, by all means He will bring you into truth and none of His Elect will perish, they shall all be saved!
I believe you are finding many things hard to understand because you must understand the true salvation of the Bible first. God does save all His chosen people before the world ends. This is what Christ is waiting for. He is building His spiritual temple, which is His body. The moment His last chosen Elect has been saved, then Christ comes down with Glory and wrath! The last day will be a terrible horrific day for all those who did not become saved.
Q: "to imply that we are without sin is a bit too far to assume. Why else would St. Paul write to the Corinthians and so forth? Man falls, so must confess and repent because he is human. There are limits to his repentance, which we should be very careful of if we wish to stay in God's grace."
A: I do not insinuate we are without sin. Keep in mind once you become saved you are a new creature. God has giving you a new resurrected soul. In principle, every past sin and future sin is covered by the blood of Christ. In God's eyes you are clothed in righteousness. We are pure and sinless. The thing is, our new souls are still living in a sin cursed body which continues to lust after sin. How do we know this? We are still aging and dying. Our souls are in conflict with our flesh. On the last day, when we get ruptured, all the Elect who are still living, first the dead in Christ, will be taken up and be giving a new glorified body with their new soul.
Sin will always be there and God's purpose is to strengthen us. God wants us to go to Him 24 hrs.- a - day for HIS help and strength; And to give us a hatred for that sin. This is how we grow in sanctification. The difference between one who is saved and an unsaved, is when a saved person falls into sin, their soul automatically becomes disturbed and their back on their knees repenting again, begging for forgiveness. An unsaved person will not think twice about a little sin he has committed, and he’ll shrug and say, that’s OK, God will forgive me! Our new souls do not want to sin, we always want to do the will of God because that is when we are most happy.
You are correct that I do works of faith, why? I do them because it is God who wills in me to do them and I get tremendous enjoyment doing them. I do not do good works to get myself saved! People who do not understand salvation are doing good works because they think they can earn their way to heaven. They think they will get rewards or something. Our reward is and it better be good enough, which is eternal life with God in HIS presence!
Why do you do good works? Do you think if you follow every sacrament perfectly, you will make it to heaven? Don't you think it is torture if God doesn't let you know that you have received eternal Life? Didn't the Jews do the same thing in the Old Testament to get themselves right with God? Didn't they follow all of their traditions perfectly? But God says NO WAY, NO HOW! If you think doing good works will give you a slim chance for heaven, then you are still under the curse of the Law! No way we could follow the Bible perfectly and God knows that. This is why we need a savior, our Lord Jesus Christ who died and was buried and then was resurrected for His chosen.
The Bible Is God's Law book and we need to be obedient to it, but don't follow the Law because it will make you get to heaven. I pray that you will go to the BIBLE and test everything I say, and if I am in era, please tell me.
Q: "If you truly believe and practice what the Bible teaches, why then have you not left your family, house, and wife to pursue "the kingdom of God"? Have you? I can't. It is just too difficult. After all, this is what Jesus wanted of His Apostles. So, what meaning does this Scripture have in the Bible? What does it really mean for us, or was it meant only for His Apostles? "
A: Let me ask you that question. If the church follows all the sacraments and traditions of the New Testament perfectly, why hasn't all of your members left their family? That is because they do not seek the spiritual truths of the scriptures. If one is still under bondage, then they will not have eyes to see.
I'll try to explain this. Spiritually there are 2 kingdoms; one is the dominion of darkness, headed up by Satan. Most of the peoples of the world belong to this. The other is the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. The remnant chosen by grace, from all the nations of the world, belong to the Kingdom of Christ. Satan is the head of the first kingdom, and he is in complete rebellion against Christ. He hates Christ. He wants to destroy Christ and all that He does. He is at war with Christ. Christ, on the other hand, in His program, is going to get total victory over Satan; And finally all of the wicked, all who follow Satan, will be vanquished and cast into hell.
So that's the conflict that exists. Now if you are in an unsaved family, if your father and mother and brothers and sisters are all unsaved, as well as yourself, you're all citizens of the dominion of darkness. You're all slaves of Satan. And so while you may bicker and fight among yourselves to some degree, nevertheless there is common agreement. None of you love God at all, none of you are concerned about the Lord Jesus Christ, and none of you are on God's side at all. Characteristic of every unsaved person, you are deep in your heart in rebellion against God.
But now something dreadful happens. One of you becomes a traitor. One of you goes over to the enemy's side because, you see, the unsaved are under the rule of Satan. And Satan is at enmity with Christ. So, therefore, whether the unsaved know it or not, they also are enemies of Christ. When God says, "Love your enemies," He's speaking of the unsaved. He's not speaking about those whom we happen to single out as being "so and so's." He's actually speaking about any unsaved person. They are our enemies. So now you become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. You've become a traitor to the dominion of Satan. You've gone over to the kingdom of light, the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Now how is this going to relate then to the rest of your family? You have two rules that apply. First of all, you are to love your enemies; And so you have to continue to love your parents, and love your brothers and sisters, simply because that is God's program for you. But in some countries with different religions will not tolerate this and then the family will disown you and throw you out. In America, the family may do the same or may tolerate it and deal with it. But our jobs are to continually intervene for them and pray that it may be God's will to save the whole family too.
The family may even give an ultimatum, where you may have to choose. So you have to make a decision. Do I love God more, or do I love my parents more? Just keep in mind, God commands us to bring the gospel to everybody, so if the family doesn't kick you out, you have an opportunity to share what you are learning from the scriptures.
Jesus said that He did not come to bring peace upon the earth, but a sword. Now He did come to bring peace upon the earth in the sense that He came to bring peace with God. But as He brings peace with God, He brings the sword, because the moment that we become saved, then there is a division between our family and us. And there is no longer peace. There was peace as long as we were all unsaved. We were all in agreement in our rebellion against God. And there was that kind of peace. But we were not at peace with God
Q: "Have you drunk any poisons lately, or played with poisonous snakes? Is the Book of Mark really saying that once you receive the Holy Spirit you become immune to those things? Or, should we really study the history behind the Book of Mark for answers? Oh, wait, this we mean looking outside of the Bible. "
A: These examples you gave are perfect examples in what I was telling you about the Bible being in parables. Unless the Bible is teaching moral commands, we are not to take all the scriptures literal. God has to give you eyes to see. All scripture has hidden spiritual truths. So what are these telling us about salvation?
Now as we do with the rest of the Bible, any time we read a verse, we want to begin to read it in the light of everything else the Bible teaches. If we read this verse all alone, it would seem to indicate that God is teaching here that when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then we should begin to be able to do certain miraculous things. If we would pick up a rattlesnake, it would not hurt us. If we would happen to drink strychnine, either accidentally or because someone gave it to us, to kill us, it would not hurt us. And certainly when it says that we can lay hands on the sick and they will recover, we should have the power to be able to go into any hospital and go from bed to bed and lay our hands on the sick, and there should be recovery. That is apparently what this is teaching.
But when we begin to look at these verses in the light of everything else in the Bible, we find that it isn't quite like that. We do find that there were a few signs that did accompany the early church as it first began to spread out with the Gospel, just a few. The ability to do miracles was confined, insofar as we can discover in the Bible, to just a few of the apostles. They indeed were able to heal the sick as God gave them power. They were able to speak in foreign languages, as we read in Acts 2. And we do read of the apostle Paul, when he was shipwrecked, that a poisonous viper clung to his skin, and yet he was not hurt by it.
But we also read that we're not to walk by signs and wonders. We're to walk by faith. We're not to walk by sight. The fact is, Jesus said to the Pharisees, "An evil and an adulterous generation seeketh for a sign." This means, therefore, that it was not God's intention that we live by miracles. We are to live by faith in the Lord, humbly trusting Him.
And these signs that are related in the Bible were related and recorded in order that we might have insights into the nature of salvation, which God has provided. In other words, when HE healed the blind man, He was showing that even as He was able to physically heal that blind man, so He is able to spiritually heal those who are spiritually blind.
So I do not believe that this passage is suggesting in any sense that today we could find those who could lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover. The fact is, I don't know anyone who could go into the hospital and empty it, because he could go from bed to bed. Actually, we don't try to understand doctrine by experience anyway. And just strictly from a Biblical vantage point, we know that this would not be possible.
However, when we look upon these five signs that follow believers to discover the spiritual meaning hidden within them, we not only find harmony with the rest of the Bible, but we can also know that only God could have written these verses. Indeed, we can be certain that without question these verses are an integral part of the Holy Canon. The first sign that will follow those who believe is that in Christ's "name shall they cast out devils." This is a figure that points to those who will become saved when the Gospel is sent forth by believers. Those who are not saved are in Satan' s dominion. When they become saved, it is as if devils have been cast out of them. That is, they are no longer under the power of Satan. They have been translated into the kingdom of Christ. The miracle that people are saved from Satan's power takes place wherever believers proclaim the Gospel. Indeed this sign always follows those who believe. The second sign that follows believers is that they shall speak with new tongues. The spiritual meaning of this figure is found in the fact that each nation has its own language. The language spoken by the unsaved (regardless of political language) is that of the dominion of Satan. The language of the believer is that of the kingdom of God. Even if the same English or German or French words are used in both kingdoms, the language used by the believer is different from that of the unbeliever. The words may be the same, but their meanings and applications to the speaker will be quite different. We are reminded of the Old Testament prophecy of Psalm 40:3: "He hath put a new song in my mouth," and Psalm 98:1: "0 sing unto the LORD a new song." Indeed, wherever believers are found, we find them speaking with new tongues.
The third sign that will follow those who believe is that they will take up serpents. In the Bible the serpent typifies Satan (Rev. 12:9). Before we are saved, we are under Satan's power. He rules over us; but when we become saved, we rule over him. To use the figure of Mark 16:18, we are like the snake handler who takes up the snake. Wherever believers are found, there will be those who rule over Satan as they plunder his house of those who are being saved. The fourth sign that follows those who believe is "if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them." When we become saved, we drank the pure water of the Gospel. To listen to a false gospel is to drink poison. For example, in Deuteronomy 32:32, 33, God faults ancient Israel for their idol worship by declaring: “For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.” However, because believers can never lose their salvation, if they should drink poison by listening to a false gospel, they cannot lose their salvation. This principle is true wherever believers are found. The fifth sign that follows those who believe is "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Spiritually, when believers share the Gospel with others, they are ministering to those who are spiritually ill. The Gospel applied by the Holy Spirit by means of the witnessing of believers brings spiritual healing, for God says in I Peter 2:24b, 25a, "by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray." This principle is also true and will be in evidence wherever there are believers. Thus we see that these five signs literally follow all who believe, but we must understand them in their spiritual dimension. Because we can come to such a beautiful understanding of these verses once we apply the biblical principle that Christ spoke in parables, we have certain vindication that this principle must be seriously considered wherever the Bible gives historical information that in itself does not relate to the Gospel message.
God Bless and may He give you wisdom……..
-- C.S (Embasador333@yahoo.com), July 06, 2003.
C.S.Thanks for your reply.
Please read my email to you.
rod. . . . . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 06, 2003.
D.O. - Actuall some of the books might have been written in Hebrew according to some scholars. But the problem is that the original Hebrew books were lost so the Greek had to be used.
-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), July 10, 2003.
Actually a Hebrew manuscript of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. In fact, the NAB translation is based on the Hebrew.
-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 11, 2003.
hey i was wondering, who made god? if any of you here are able to answer this question please post it down.ps.He/she could not have been existing for all time because that is an impossiblity even a god has to start somewhere.
-- andrew (artanis_2@yahoo.com), July 14, 2003.
oh by the way, Embassedor333 you have waaaay to much free time on your hands.
-- andrew (artanis_2@yahoo.com), July 14, 2003.
God always has been and always will be. He is, afterwall, the "Great I Am."Yes, it does SEEM impossible, but it also seems impossible that human beings exist on a planet called earth! How impossible is that? That man has breath and lungs in which to breath -- impossible! That man has vision and eyes in which to see -- impossible! That man has a heart in which to feel pain and pleasure -- impossible! That the miracle of birth is given each and every day -- impossible! That animals exist of all different kinds -- impossible!
All these things SEEM impossible, and YET, here they are!
Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 14, 2003.
Andrew.Who made God? Then, who made him? And, who made him? and .....
rod. ... .. ..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 14, 2003.
The creation of the smallest imaginable particle, is a miracale.rod. ... . . ..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 14, 2003.
Do you wonder, maybe God has a brother, or God friends. Maybe humans were an experiment. Maybe there is more like him, that's why he said "Thou shall have no other gods before me" because then he'd get jealous if his friend got his experiment worshipping him. Maybe he has a 'god'. This of it, as us humans, somehow managed to create little living people, now they will think were gods. We can drown them, or do whatever to scare them, and worship us. Oh well, that's just wondering.
-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 14, 2003.
Dear Andrew,In science, anything that exists must have an origin, and anything that happens must have a cause. Regarding the origin of the physical universe, there are two theoretical possibilities, but I'm afraid you are faced with scientific impossibility either way ...
(1) God is the initial source of all other things which exist. He is therefore the uncaused cause, preceded by nothing. He is therefore necessarily eternal, without a cause or an origin. This is scientifically impossible.
(2) God, since He exists, must have had an origin. But in that case, that which caused Him to come into existence must have preceded Him, and therefore, since it existed, must itself have had an origin and a cause. Therefore something must have preceded it. Where this line of reasoning leads is obviously to an eternal series of causes and origins, which itself had no beginning and no cause. This is scientifically impossible.
Any reasonable person who gives this a bit of thought must conclude that one of these two "scientifically impossible" explanations must be correct. Since both possible explanations are "scientifically impossible", the only rational conclusion is that the cause of all that exists must lie outside the realm of science. And indeed He does, for He is pure spirit, and the spiritual does not fall within the realm of science. Science is restricted to matter and energy and their interrelationships. God is not matter, nor is He energy, since He is the intial cause of both matter and energy, and therefore preceded them both.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 14, 2003.
but Paul,you base both your arguments on an ssumption that can't be proved - that God exists. How can you compare two different points of view when both of them require that somebody accept an unproved and uncertain assumption.
-- K.B. (KonBau@hotmail.com), July 14, 2003.
Dear K.B.,The logical necessity for the existence of God can easily be demonstrated on scientific grounds, as follows:
Given the premise that God does NOT exist, the existence of matter and energy must be explained by one of two general theories:
(1) There was a time when matter and energy did not exist. Therefore NOTHING existed at all. But, matter and energy suddenly (or gradually) appeared. This is scientifically impossible because of the most fundamental theorem of science - causality. Science requires that existing entities had an origin, and that occurring events are generated by pre-existing causes. Therefore, if NOTHING existed, it is not possible that NOTHING could have served as the pre-existing cause for the appearence of SOMETHING - matter and energy; and therefore such an event could not have occured. Spontaneous generation was disproven by science centuries ago. Yet, it is observable that both matter and energy do exist.
(2) Matter and/or energy always existed. This is scientifically impossible because of the most fundamental theorem of science - causality. Science requires that existing entities had an origin, and that occurring events are generated by pre-existing causes. Therefore "eternal matter" and/or "eternal energy" are scientifically impossible because eternality, by definition, means no origin and therefore no cause. In science, "no origin" and "no cause" are equivalent to "no existence". Yet, it is observable that both matter and energy do exist.
Any real scientist, having demonstrated the impossibility of one theory, must accept that some other theory is the correct one. Therefore, since ALL atheistic theories for the existence of matter and energy can readily be demonstrated on scientific grounds to be scientifically impossible, any real scientist would have to conclude that the correct theory must therefore be a theistic one. Once having determined that, the two possibilities presented in my previous post are the only ones that are scientifically tenable.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 14, 2003.
The existence of God cannot be scientifically proven, but can be logically proven, and WAS logically proven by an atheist, who then became an agnostic. He was an Oxford Professor by the name of C.S. Lewis. He did this in his book, "Mere Christianity". Try reading at least the first three chapters, for a sample of his use of logic to prove there is a God. Interesting stuff.
-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), July 14, 2003.