Is HEARING the word of God a condition of salvation? Yes it is! (See Romans 10:17). Is BELIEF [Faith] in the gospel a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Mark 1:15). Is REPENTANCE a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Acts 17:30). Is CONFESSION a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Romans 10:9). Is BAPTISM a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Mark 16:16).

-- Mike (blank@none.com), July 17, 2003

Answers

Response to Are there conditions are salvation?

Jmj

I can tell that you are a Christian, Mike, but to which protestant denomination do you belong?
This is a Catholic discussion forum. What would you like to ask us -- whether or not we agree with your personal doctrines?

Catholics (members of the only Church that Jesus founded) don't believe that the things you just listed are always absolute pre-requisites for salvation. There are cases when not all of these conditions can be met. Let me give you a simple example:
"Is REPENTANCE a condition for salvation?"
You said, "Yes," which would rule out salvation for such people as the profoundly retarded and dying infants, who are incapable of "repentance."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

Response to Are there conditions are salvation?

"Is HEARING the word of God a condition of salvation? Yes it is! (See Romans 10:17). Is BELIEF [Faith] in the gospel a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Mark 1:15). Is REPENTANCE a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Acts 17:30). Is CONFESSION a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Romans 10:9). Is BAPTISM a condition for salvation? Yes it is! (See Mark 16:16)."

Each and every one of these things that Mike says, taken without modification, is absolutely true, and is Catholic Truth.

Now it may be the case that Mike may go on further to postulate deviations or modifications to them, but he hasn't done that yet. Why press him into it?

"Catholics (members of the only Church that Jesus founded) don't believe that the things you just listed are always absolute pre- requisites for salvation."

Actually, we DO believe that these things are always absolute prerequisites for salvation, or at least we ought to. The Church has always taught these things; it's the Truth.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

Response to Are there conditions are salvation?

No, it is not the truth that these things are ABSOLUTE requirements for salvation, as the Church acknowledges necessary exceptions for each and every one of them. If all of these were absolute requirements, then small children (infants, toddlers) could never be saved. They can be baptized, but they cannot hear the word of God in any meaningful way, and they cannot believe in the gospel, repent or confess (not that they would need to, since they have no sin). As John mentioned, severely mentally compromised adults would fall into the same category. Those who have never had the opportunity to hear or believe in the Word of God would likewise not be condemned by a just and loving God. This has been dicussed in other threads. And finally, not to beat a dead horse, how can hundreds of conflicting manmade churches, no two of them preaching the same set of beliefs, all claim to be "hearing the Word of God" and "believing in the gospel"? Can the Word of God conflict with itself? Can the gospel contradict itself?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

Look at the statement again:

"Is REPENTANCE a condition for salvation?" You said, "Yes," which would rule out salvation for such people as the profoundly retarded and dying infants, who are incapable of "repentance."

It is not the case that by saying "Yes" that you rule salvation for these people. All you can way is "Yes" to the question, because according to Faith, it's the only answer.

Saying "No" outright is a nullification of doctrine, so people say "most of the time" or "some of the time".

Problem is, when they do this, they invariably begin the process of universal salvation. It's almost automatic; even if people don't start out that way, they always end up that way.

What in the world is wrong with saying "I don't know" in those special situations? Why can't we just say "God is an all just and merciful God, let Him handle it"? That's the right answer anyways... we DON'T know.

All I'm saying is that speculating will get you into trouble. And it does.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

It's speculation that a 2-month old can't believe in the gospel??

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

No; here's what I mean:

Christ says, "unless you eat my Body and Drink my blood, you shall not have life in you". We both agree to that, you and I, because that's Scriptural and Catholic and it's on our altars.

I have a 2 year old baptised daughter here. Let's say something happens and she dies today. Someone could say "see, if you hold what Christ said as an absolute, then, she obviously she wasn't saved."

The truth of the matter is that she would be with God in Heaven; you and I would both agree to that.

Here's what I don't agree with and what isn't really Catholic: to try to figure out from human reason how the above case of my daughter jives with what Christ said. You can go two ways with this:

1. You can say there's an exception, or

2. You can say that God fulfills the prerequisite that He Himself laid out for us as revealed truth. In other words, that my daughter would partake in the Blood of Christ before entrance into the Beatific Vision. How? Who knows.

The first case is an attempt to resolve things to the human intellect, which is not capable of seeing and understanding all ends. The only way we can reconcile this to our minds is to postulate an exception. Once we do this, we nullify the necessity of the Sacraments... for instance, Chris B. used to call them "helps". I personally refuse to take this course, because it rules out immutable essences and realities which lie at the foundation of our Catholic Faith.

The second case is better, because all you can do is say "I don't know". This keeps Faith intact, and you don't nullify the tenets of your Faith. It's the better answer... after all, isn't that what Faith is: believing in revealed immutable truths beyond our comprehension?

Whenever our attempts to try to explain things turns into creation of exceptions to known tenets of the Faith, we end up denying our own doctrines at the root. At that point, a person isn't a theologian anymore but just a philosopher.

All I'm saying is, sometimes it's just safer to say "I don't know".

The fallacy is that the position I put forth here is unCatholic and "condemns people to Hell and denies the Mercy of God it's proper place". That's just a misunderstanding of the question itself, that's all. I don't condemn anyone to Hell by holding to the doctrines of the Faith.

These types of questions are what St. Ambrose was thinking of when he said this:

"Leave arguments aside in matters of faith, for it is from unbelievable things that our faith is made up. God cannot do that which is against the faith. He cannot do what is against Truth".

And St. Alphonsus Ligouri:

"Were we to regulate the mysteries of faith according to our limited understanding, we would soon deny more than one of these mysteries"

These saints in the quotes above are specifically refering to things like the topic of this thread; this is exactly the stuff these saints were talking about.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm not trying to be a contrarian or a pain the rear. Do you see it?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

Dear Emerald,

You say:

1. You can say there's an exception, or

2. You can say that God fulfills the prerequisite that He Himself laid out for us as revealed truth. In other words, that my daughter would partake in the Blood of Christ before entrance into the Beatific Vision. How? Who knows.

I would disagree. I would say that either there MUST exceptions to the rule, OR we must take the rule as an absolute, which is simply another way of saying "no exceptions". Those are the only two possibilities - "there are" exceptions, or "there are not" exceptions. There is no middle ground here. Your item number 2 above, which you offer as another alternative is not another alternative at all. It is simply one possible explanation of how such an exception might be made - a very unlikely one in my opinion, but as you said, we cannot always have certain knowledge of the details. But the fact that your daughter is eligible for heaven, in spite of not fulfilling several biblical requirements for salvation, simply means that such requirements necessarily presuppose valid exceptions, without which they would contradict the revealed nature of God as good, loving, and just. Obviously, the idea of exceptions could become a real Pandora's box, if everyone was entitiled to decide for himself what constitutes a valid exception and what does not. That's why God gave us the Church.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

And, in fact, Paul, it has opened a Pandora's box amongst many leaders in our Church as is evidenced by some very public comments made by some very important leaders via television and other media. These fellows have taken quite a bit of liberty with the teachings of JPII, stretching these teachings beyond the brink of credulity and causing confusion and scandal amongst the American Church, and as Emerald pointed out -- resulting in Universalism.

But nevertheless, in order to "cut to the chase," and head this fellow (Mike) off at the pass, the Church teaches that a person cannot "knowingly" reject Christ and attain salvation. God alone can determine who has "knowledge" and who is invincibly ignorant, as HE is the only reader of men's hearts!

And Mike, to further answer your question, the commands of Christ toward discipleship are numerous and weighty. You have only mentioned a mere fraction. The penalty for "lukewarmness" is to be spewed out of the mouth of Christ. The penalty for "putting one's hand to the plow and looking back," makes one unworthy of the cross. "He who does not pick up his cross and follow" cannot be His disciple. "He who does not bear fruit," is cast into the fire. "He who does not forgive his brother," is thrown into prison.

So you see, Mike, there are many conditions to being a Christian, and while some are able to fullfill those conditions quickly, most of us slobs toil and labor throughout our lives always reaching for the highest goal and always laboring to please the Lord we love and serve. As it is written, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), July 17, 2003.

We contemplate these mysteries as Catholics. Others contemplate the same mysteries outside the Church, and arrive at similar conclusions. There is but one truth, and no one would intentionally reject it. If he/she is shown that truth.

In essence all the Gospel has truly revealed, and most Christians can see it,-- Is that Jesus Christ is Lord and we must love Him. Love Him more than any other love, even our life.

''Thou shalt love the lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul and whole strength and mind, and love thy neighbor as thyself.''

We who love Jesus Christ simply take Him into our hearts forever. There is one perfect way in this life of following Him. It shows the greatest love by doing the Will of His Father, and becoming like Christ the Son ourselves. For this, He founded His Church; that no follower of His should fail to be like Him. Fail on account of not knowing how to be Christ-like. We need the Church for the work of our sanctification. There we embrace Him in everlasting love, as His saints!

I hope to be a saint; I realise what He gives me for my sanctification. His sacraments, His own love, the love also of His Holy Mother. The scriptures with our Advocate, the Holy Spirit. Every means of attaining sainthood; every means PROVEN by countless Catholic saints and martyrs! Nothing left out. And; what is it we learn first and foremost in the Church as the indispensable message of the Gospel? LOVE JESUS CHRIST. Love Him with every ounce of your being; holding back no trace of your love. It must all be poured out for Him; God Our Saviour!

This condition applies to evry soul in every age. The other conditions for our salvation all follow this one, IMHO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 17, 2003.

i just can't wait for Mike's next post.

c'mon Mike. the spotlight's on you.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), July 17, 2003.

Mike,
I stated: "Catholics (members of the only Church that Jesus founded) don't believe that the things you just listed are always absolute pre-requisites for salvation."

Then "Emerald" objected: "Actually, we DO believe that these things are always absolute prerequisites for salvation, or at least we ought to."

What he failed to make clear is that his word, "we" (in "we DO believe") referred to him and his fellow non-Catholic, Feeneyish heretics. His word "we" did not refer to Catholicism, from which Emerald sadly fell away last year.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), July 17, 2003.

Thanks for lying about me, Gecik. Much appreciated.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

Apologies for my last post; I'll leave you in peace.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

Hi Emerald: So what does "... lead all souls to heaven ..." mean? Would you qualify the word "all" like the Christian Soldier?

All=all-baptized-Christians,

hmm, no... all = all-Catholics, no make that all-traditional-Catholics,

that doesn't quite cut it, all=all-traditional-Catholics-except-those-anti-Feeney-SSPX-hypocrites ? :-)

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 17, 2003.

I'm going to lay this down, Stephen; you know what to do, and you don't need me to do it. =)

Look, I'm safe in saying ask your Mother; she won't fail you if you ask. But I'm sure you did that already.

I have to let this go now.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 17, 2003.

Here's an article by Fr. Richard Neuhaus that presents an argument for "universalism" or the belief that hell may be empty. This seems to go a bit too far, as Gail pointed out earlier, but may be interesting reading anyway. The link is here: (the first article in the collection)

Will all be saved?

Basically, Fr. Neuhaus's point is that although faith tells us that salvation is limited, we can hope for anyone, for nothing is impossible with God.

Emerald, I noticed that he mentions the Fatima prayer as an example of this hope. I quote:

... the fact is that we all pray that all may be saved. Is it possible to pray for that without hoping for that? I think not. It follows that we pray, and therefore we hope, that all will be saved. Catholics by the millions pray the rosary every day, adding at the end of each decade, O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy.

Another quotable quote from Fr. Neuhaus anticipating fierce objections to his arguments (I hasten to add that I am not in his camp).

I hope we can disagree without quarreling, remembering Chesterton’s observation that the problem with a quarrel is that it spoils an argument. And, as in all such disagreements, we do well to keep in mind the rule of Richard Baxter (famously reiterated by John XXIII), “In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in all things, charity.”

:-) Incidentally, there were several replies to this article, one of which mentions the Fatima prayer. The replies are here. By the way, Emmy, the reply from Thomas Zebrowski seems to be close to your position. Tell me if I'm wrong. Here's his comment on the Fatima prayer (seems a bit weak IMHO).

To demonstrate the Church’s hope that all will be saved, Fr. Neuhaus quotes the Fatima prayer asking that Jesus "lead all souls to heaven." Yet the same messenger told the children that souls were going to hell because there was no one to offer prayers or make sacrifices for them. Those who received that message in faith saw no contradiction between Mary’s prayer of "hope for all" and the knowledge that some will be lost. Nor do the arguments presented in Fr. Neuhaus’ article prove we need to see any contradiction either.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 18, 2003.

Hmm, my summary of Fr. Neuhaus's position was too conservative. Actually, he argues that faith does not rule out an empty Hell.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), July 18, 2003.

all of these answers are very profound, and offer some perspective, but i believe that only god truly knows the answers, and while we may speculate and actually come close to the truth, we will never truly know until god has revealed

God Bless

-- Bill Gryta (whyme@austin.rr.com), July 19, 2003.

dear Bill,

that's so true -- but please remember that the Pope speaks INFALLIBLY. therefore, relevant 100%-reliable information is readily available to us in this day.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), July 22, 2003.

I think one of the safest bets, Stephen, is to look at what the Saints have said in their writings. You look at one or two, and then more and more, and you will find that on certain themes they are remarkably consistant, so much so that you can hardly even find one that digresses on it.

One of these common themes is the narrow path of salvation.

First, since you mentioned Fatima, of which two of the seer children have been declared saints:

"So many lives will be lost, and most of them will go to Hell. So many fall! So many!" --St. Jacinta

"Many will be damned; few will be saved." --St. Benedict Joseph Labre

"The number of the Elect is so small... so small, that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief." --St. Louis de Monfort

"So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved" --St. Philip Neri

"There a select few who are saved." --St. Thomas Aquinas

It goes on, and on, and on, and on, these examples, but you get the point. The Saints all had this deep awareness of the predicament of the individual man and of all mankind and the failure of souls to care about their eternal destiny. You see this understanding carried into the liturgy of the Mass of Trent.

Again, though, people don't like to hear this stuff. I supposed we could blow off the Saints and not give them any credence, huh? Hey, they said it, not me. =) It isn't my fault, it's just the way things are, but besides that... it's totally and completely Scriptural, where we know for a fact that the road to death and Hell is broad and the one to Heaven is narrow. That's Jesus, don't blame me! lol. He said it.

Again, if you look throughout the ages, there is continuity in these things, and you can pick them out. No new understanding of things is going to be able to change this reality, and never has anything other than this understanding been dogmatically defined.

It's all there for the having if one takes the time to look for it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), July 22, 2003.