Regardless of whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a sin, is it not a societal responsibility to allow others to live without persecution? You might think you are acting in the name of god, etc etc by condemning the homosexual community but to the homosexual community you are merely closeminded, impolite, and irresponsible. Live your own life, let others live theirs. Fight the urge to condemn, and everyone will be happier.

I have no problem with belief in god, but a strong objection to organized religion.

Please don't respond with quotes from biblical sources, as these are not universal, and only support your beliefs, not mine. Respond only if you are prepared to attempt to justify the judging of others.

-- Barney Smithertonsky (aethiest@poop.com), August 05, 2003

Answers

First, homophobia is a misnomer. Fear of homosexuality is not the issue.

Morality is.

Can a homosexually inclined person be a moral person? Absolutely.

Should anyone be treated badly? Absolutely not.

We can argue all day about whether homosexuality is chosen or is a product of physiology, but the bottom line is: If you believe in the teachings of Christianity, you can only come to one conclusion. The act of homosexuality is wrong.

The creation/enforcement of any law is the act of judging a person's conduct.

Jesus said, "Those of you without sin, cast the first stone".

But, he also said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more".

May God bless you on your journey.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 05, 2003.

"Regardless of whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a sin, is it not a societal responsibility to allow others to live without persecution?"

A: Yes it is, and the Church abhors and forbids persecution of any group of people, including homosexuals.

"You might think you are acting in the name of god, etc etc by condemning the homosexual community but to the homosexual community you are merely closeminded, impolite, and irresponsible".

A: The Church condemns no-one. The Church simply informs people about ways of living which God has clearly said He WILL condemn. Listening to the Church is the only way to AVOID such eternal condemnation, and the Church is the only hope of people who are in need of that information.

"Live your own life, let others live theirs".

A: It would be totally irresponsible and immoral to see someone walking toward the edge of a pit, and failing to warn them, under the guise of "living my life and letting them live theirs". The Church, thank God, is not that irresponsible, but steps forward to offer people what they need to avoid the pit. They still have freedom of choice however, and if the pit is where they want to live, the Church cannot prevent them from being there.

"I have no problem with belief in god, but a strong objection to organized religion".

A: That makes a lot of sense. "I believe in God, but I don't believe in doing what He has commanded". Then why believe in Him??

"Respond only if you are prepared to attempt to justify the judging of others".

A: Judging of others cannot be justified. The Church and the Bible both forbid the judging of other persons. However, we ARE called to judge the acceptability of actions, both of ourselves and of others - just as you are doing right now. To fail to judge the morality of actions is to go through life with no concept of morality at all. The only difference between your judgement of our actions and our judgement of homosexual actions is the utter lack of any authoritative source backing up your judgements.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 05, 2003.

Just look into the nature. Can you see any creature engaging in homosexuality? In the bible it says many times that homosexuality is a very serious sin against God, and which terminated sodom and gomora. If you do not believe in the bible and/or not a christian, just have a look into the nature. This is a sick and pervert thing, which gives great pleasure to satan. The union is complete and pure when a male and a female joins together as one. Procreation and love joins together as divine there. Homosexuality is sometimes a mental disease, but other times done as downright pervertism.

I am not surprised by what happens in the Anglicah church because the church itself was formed because the King wanted to be a pervert and the pope stood by God. I wouldn't be surprised to see more things like this happen there.

It is just simple. If you are a christian, look into the bible and see words written clearly in a language that you can understand. If you are not, look into nature and see how things are supposed to be done.

P.S I use the term christian to denote anyone who follows christ. All catholics are by default chrisitan whether they like it or not. The word christian means one who follows christ.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

One more thing. I have not yet seen a catholic who has looked upon a homosexual person by hatred or anyone who "judges" them. All I feel and I am sure many others feel is just pity and love. You don't have to think that the bible is not universal and God's words are true because you were granted the ability of free will, but you are the one judging others by saying that the catholics judge them/him/her. Judging is for God alone, and since it is our duty to make these people undertand, we are supposed to do so, and we do it with love and pity not hatred or irritation. There might be people who do the opposite, but no one is perfect and evil is everywhere.

Homosexuality, suicide, cruelty etc is all against nature itself. You don't have to read the bible or be a christian to understand that. Live your own life, let others live theirs is not what christians do. They try to help others because we human beings are supposed to, and we will. People whose minds are imprinted with their own fantasies and judgements will never understand this, or agree to this. They just bash at anything against their interest by using terms like "condemn" and "judgement". Things like these against the holy church will go on and on until the end.

In fact, it is people who live against the natural order of life who are impolite, closeminded and irresponsible, and many more than that. If there was judgement and condemn we all know what would happen to them.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

The problem with the Gay lesbian and transgender movement is that they attempt to impose their will onto others.

Christianity does NOT believe in homsexuality as a promoted lifestyle.

It Does Not fit the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

It does Not follow the teachings of Christ.

We still have freedom of religion in this country and Gay marriages, along with homesexuality IS NOT part of the Christian faith.

The same applies to incest and poligimy which are not part of the Christian faith.

If enough people practice incest should the Church accept it??

No!

If enough people murder, should society accept it??

I would think not!

Tollerance for homosexuality means these people are not being proactively attacked by the Church. They have the right through man's law to practice this lifestyle, it does not mean the State or the Gay community has the right to impose this lifestyle on the Church.

Marriage is a bond between a man and a women, the propagation of family and children is the primary focus.

For those who claim Cathilics are condeming homsexuality, they must be reminded that Cathilics are not imposing their will to the Gay communities. Catholics are not passing laws that say homosexuality is harrassment against Catholics. Catholics are not crying victim status for free federal and State funding to promote their beliefs.

It is the Gay community that must be tollerant to others and not push their lifestyle on the Church or in our schools to our children or on society as a whole.

If the Gay community wants to start their own religion based on the belief of alternate lifestyles go do it.

They will not do this because it will not fit their real agenda which is to remain in victim status and recieve our free tax dollars for their pet causes.ie. abortion, harrassment, domestic violence.

Why can't the Gay community be happy with who they are and stop propagating their belief's on others?

Prove to the world that this lifestyle works and is best for children and maybe others will feel the same.

Lets picture a world where all sexual practices are encouraged and practiced...Adultry, homosexuality, Bondage and disipline, incest, beastiality, Lesbianism, pedefelia, ...where does it end???

If Christians choose not to live and promote these practices for whatever reason, it is their right. Let it be.

As for the aethiest out there, you have the right to believe in nothing. WHo is stopping you?? WHo is judging you? WHo is promoting their will on you through man's law or otherwise.

-- M Silver (mg_comm@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

"Why can't the Gay community be happy with who they are and stop propagating their belief's on others?"

Because it is not natural, the lifestyle's legitimacy needs to be contually forced. The fact that it is counter-truth requires the constant rationalization.

Here's a wierd analogy: a common airplane flies through the air naturally and makes use of the elements because their very shape works with the air, but these stealth fighters ignore aerodynamics in favor of a different shape for radar purposes. As a result, they kind of fight the atmosphere and have to have a computer to make several adjustments per second just to keep them in proper flight. Their flight is "forced" into place.

That's pretty much like what happens when people try to justify a lifestyle against truth; they need to explain to themselves and to the world all day, everyday, why they're doing just fine.

I hate to see people torture themselves this way, but we all do it to ourselves to some degree or another about various things. Imho, the greater part of Catholicism is to stop torturing yourself and let the world torture you instead; in other words, the Cross.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 06, 2003.

Couldn't put it better myself M Silver...

-- Andrew Swampillai (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

"Why does the church encourage homophobia?"

The Church does not encourage fear of anything -the Church encourages faith in God & the truth -FEARLESSLY...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 06, 2003.

"Homosexuality" is a non-issue. The problem here is simple bigotry. Bigotry always finds targets: "The Jews" - What was all this even ABOUT anyway??? The Catholic Church also encouraged this this as well. "Other Races" - the Southern Baptist Covention (America's largest protestant denomination) was formed on the basis of "principled, conservative" resistance to abolitionism.

Bigotry is what it is. The smart comments on this site by "religious" homophobes are not meaningful arguments against civic equality for benign and contributory citizens--rather, they are clearly ignorant, fear-based at after-the-fact efforts at justifying personal unease about the fact that minorities actually exist, even in "my neighborhood", even in "my church", even in "my family", even in "my workplace", even on "my TV". The simple fact is that we could talk until we were blue in the face (and long-since have done) with reasonable pleas for the simple, universal human right of justice and equity, even entertaining their malicious, hypocratical aggression and paranoia with politeness and undeserved respect--and these people so inclinded to slander and marginalize gay and lesbian people would continue exactly as they have always done so.

Let's be quite frank about this: It's about abusively manipulating broad public tolerance and respect for the institution of religion, for the purpose of spreading paranoia and ill will toward entire classes of citizens who have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO their detriment, or that of anyone else. It's gratuitously abusive and is a shameful, fascist evil.

You are supposed to be RELIGIOUS: Stop PATRONIZING. Stop BADMOUTHING. Stop the MALICIOUSNESS. Stop FEARMONGERING. Stop ABUSING. Stop the HYPOCRISY. Stop the obsession with DISCRIMINATING. Stop SCAPEGOATING. Stop the ARROGANCE. Stop ELEVATING YOURSELF above those who are different from you. And just, TRY, to simply act in simple GOODNESS, according to your beloved professed PRINCIPLES for once. You do more to make your respective religions non- credible, base and reviled within society through your continuous abusive, hypocritical conduct than any of your targeted "opponents" could ever do, working at it full-time.

RB

-- Richard Baker (Rick_in_md@yahoo.com), August 11, 2003.

Dear Richard

you have, by your own standards, just delivered a masterclass in anti-Catholic Bigotry.

just think about it for a while and tell me you haven't, with reasons.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 11, 2003.

Richard, allow me to point out where you are wrong...

Homosexuality" is a non-issue.

youre right, the homosexual LIFESTYLE is the issue.

The problem here is simple bigotry.

note to class: end logic, commence name calling. in abscence of fact simply ad hominem attack your opponent. if someone in the audiance is stupid enough they might buy it.

Bigotry always finds targets: "The Jews" - What was all this even ABOUT anyway??? The Catholic Church also encouraged this this as well.

first off, how does the persecution of the jews relate at all to the discussion of whether or not the homosexual lifestyle is morally wrong? second, you had better check your facts, catholics died in concentration camps too, although not on such a large scale, not to mention the fact that the catholic churches were issuing 'baptism' certificates to jews so that they could trick the nazis into believing they were catholic.

The smart comments on this site by "religious" homophobes are not meaningful arguments against civic equality for benign and contributory citizens--rather, they are clearly ignorant, fear-based at after-the-fact efforts at justifying personal unease about the fact that minorities actually exist

now heres where youre wrong again. the comments here are niether of your options (logical fallacies involved: straw man AND oversimplification, a double whammy) NOBODY has said that gays should be discriminated against, but you set that up as a faulty front so you could argue against it. what has been said is that the homosexual lifestyle is immoral. no unease involved, by divine command homosexual acts are condemned as SIN (please note that i said ACTS and not PEOPLE).

people so inclinded to slander and marginalize gay and lesbian people would continue exactly as they have always done so.

maybe you should check your facts again. while the church has never supported the gay and lesbian lifestyles, and never will, it has also advocated treating ALL people equally. if you werent too busy getting defensive over your sin, then youd see that those who are trying to SAVE you arent really your enemies...

Im just going to stop there. the rest of your post was just worthless namecalling dribble that wasnt really worth my time to read. cheers.

-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 11, 2003.

NOBODY has said that gays should be discriminated against,

One clarification is in order. The Church's writings about homosexuality are always careful to say that we must take part in "no unjust discrimination." In other words, JUST discrimination in all situations in life is not only OK, but necessary.

Examples of this are ----- justly discriminating against small children, as too young to marry ----- justly discriminating against men, as being unable to enter an order of nuns ----- justly discriminating against an actively "gay" person or couple, as being unable properly to raise an adopted child.

A.

-- Art (ars@gratia.artis), August 11, 2003.

Thanks, subsequent posters, for making my case :)

You know, it's really no longer accepted as credible that one can claim the mantle of ethics, morality and benevolence while simultaneously pushing discrimination, double-standard, and marginalization of entire classes of citizens. Sorry, I know this burns you up but you simply can't have your cake and eat it too... particularly when you have absolutely no positive goal but rather the paranoid motivation of slandering and marginalizing other people. There's a word for this: Hypocrisy. Again, lose it, and please start following you supposedly cherished moral principles for once. It's that simple.

Second a comment on the "the Catholic church doesn't discriminate" line of delusional bunk. This is simply laughable. If this is truly something you feel shameless enough to voice, I'm not even going to bother to make the extended case why this belief is ridiculous, because 1) it's already complete public record, and moreover 2) you have already consciously chosen to ignore it and crassly re-victimize the victim out of very sad fear of actually critically, responsibly and rationally examining what your ethical beliiefs are and why.

Peace, RB

-- Richard Baker (Rick_in_md@yahoo.com), August 12, 2003.

PS... A little writing tip: When you put "words" in "quotation marks" you expose the fact that you are not, speaking from an objective standpoint with regard to what they represent, but rather you are specifically trying to cast negative aspersions. Here's the hint: Punctuation marks don't effectively do this--they simply expose your inability to use facts to effectively make your case.

It's a little ridiculous to try to say "Me? Homophobic?! Unfair?! Surely not!" When you so transparently express your fundamental disdain and for gay and lesbian people in this way! Again, refer to above: You simply can't have your cake and eat it too. I don't care what special group you think you belong to. You simply will not be respected as moral, fair, and benevolent... while simultaneously expressing ugliness, bigotry, and malice in the aggressive pursuit of trying to marginalize other people who have done absolutly nothing to your detriment, or that of anyone else. You simply don’t get special license to maliciously trample people with impugnity, much less retain respect as “good”: If you behave like a fascist, you’ll be accorded the respect befitting a fascist. If you act like a bigot, you’ll be accorded the respect befitting a bigot. No more no less. This is called fairness. It’s a concept you should perhaps get acquainted with.

Catch you later, you wonderful "religious" people ;) RB

-- Richard Baker (Rick_in_md@yahoo.com), August 12, 2003.

"This is called fairness. It’s a concept you should perhaps get acquainted with."

Richard Baker,

To answer you regarding the 'fairness' you 'feel' must be adopted... - - NO --fairness is something I choose NOT to even remotely become 'acquainted' with or lost in, as you yourself are lost in...

There is no 'fairness' regarding what is right, what is truth... - fairness, the concept is slippery, relativistic and of man... Truth, God, the word -is the standard that 'fairness' or whatever one may call a 'position' must be measured against...

Is it fair that homosexuals can not marry -hmmm, depends who you ask... Is fairness relevant to God's word -NO!

Now a question for you Richard Baker:

Why do you encourage relativism?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 12, 2003.

"You are supposed to be RELIGIOUS"

Richard,

Again and again you blindly post your perspective and lost relativistic meanderings... Is it fair that you are lost? -I know not...

Now in reference to your eloquent quote above I ask you just what you mean by 'RELIGIOUS' -relatively speaking, this can mean mny things to many people -in fact, there are many 'religions' -yet only one true Church... Please clarify and add substance to your otherwise hollow self rightuous protestations...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 12, 2003.

Before you all keep up your moral badmouthing of homosexuals, can I just point out one, simple fact - homosexuality, and the homosexual lifestyle are one and the same. Stop saying "We are not against homosexuals, just their lifestyle." How can they be homosexuals, without enjoying, and yes, i mean ENJOYING, a homosexual lifestyle? That's like saying "catholics are OK, its just their church thats a little silly".

And, please, stop using the argument "Because it is not natural" against homosexual lifestyle/people/acts/tv shows whatever. For the person that asked "are there gay animals?" well, yes. It looks like your God has betrayed you, my friend, and shown you that homosexuality is OK! This is a from a source I found on the Internet - just type in "gay animals": "There are homosexual and bisexual animals, ranging from charismatic megafauna like mountain gorillas to cats, dogs and guinea pigs. There are transgendered animals, transvestite animals (who adopt the behavior of the other gender but don't have sex with their own), and animals who live in bisexual triads and quartets."

So, according to that, not only has your God said its OK to be homosexual, but its also OK to be a transvestite, transgendered, or bisexual. So please, do not use your, "Its not natural" comment. It's completely overused, oversimplified and over.

To A.- justly discriminate??! Are you serious? Look at the word, discriminate, go get a dictionary and sit down and have a read, and tell me if there is such thing as "justly discrimination". What you are referring to is pushing your religous beliefs on other people. YOUR God told you that homosexuality was wrong, but that does not mean MY God has. So there is no reason for you at ALL, to discrminate against someone, unless you would, perhaps, be happy to participate in Muslims, or any other alternative faith, "justly discriminating" against your faith.

And Richard, I commend you for everything that you have said. It takes the atheists and the agnostics of the world to show that humanity can still be tolerant, loving, accepting and forgiving. Even though its all in the Bible, you really can't expect religious people to act that way, unless it's among their "own".

-- Angie (jaa_mann@hotmail.com), August 20, 2003.

Dear Angie,

Homosexuality and a homosexual lifestyle are certainly not the same thing, any more than heterosexuality and a heterosexual lifestyle are the same thing. One is an identity. The other is a course of action. God does not forbid the existence of an identity, even an objectively disordered one, since such an identity is not the free choice of the individual possessing it. However, God does demand that we ACT according to the dictates of His law. This means that people who have a "natural inclination" to kill are not free to go out and kill. People who have an "inate desire" to steal or destroy property or practice polygamy or participate in homosexual acts may not do so. And if they do, they will suffer the judgment of God, Who has specifically forbidden such acts.

Homosexual acts are directly opposed to the Natural Law, which is the foundation of all morality. Saying that an act is not "natural" is a moral term, not a reference to natural history, and the mere fact that something occurs "in nature" does not make it "natural", or normal. Some animals also develop hemophilia and diabetes and cancer in nature. Does that make these conditions "natural", and therefore acceptable by your definition? The fact that some animals develop unnatural traits in nature doesn't make those traits any more "natural" or any more normal. However, animals are not moral entities. They are not bound by the Natural Law. When an animal kills or steals from another animal or practices a perverted sexual act, it is not guilty of sin. Human beings are.

There is one God, Angie. If your god is not my God, then your "god" is not God. God's law applies to every human being - me, you, heterosexuals, homosexuals, Christians, Jews, pagans, atheists. Not all are aware of His universal law, but that doesn't make it any less universal. Some have openly rejected His law, but that doesn't make it any less authoritative or any less binding, nor does it make their final judgement and their eternal punishment any less severe.

God is the only hope of people in such desperate situations, whether they recognize the desperate nature of their situations or not; and His Church is the means God has provided for coming to know Him. Therefore, His Church will continue to boldly proclaim the fullness of truth. Many will reject that truth, but that is their free choice. The Church will not be guilty of contributing to their eternal destruction by its uncaring silence.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 20, 2003.

Angie, I hate to have to break the news to you, but you don't know what you are talking about.

can I just point out one, simple fact -- homosexuality, and the homosexual lifestyle are one and the same. Stop saying "We are not against homosexuals, just their lifestyle." How can they be homosexuals, without enjoying, and yes, i mean ENJOYING, a homosexual lifestyle?

1. What you claim is most assuredly not a "fact."
2. We ARE NOT against people with a homosexual attraction (as human beings), be we ARE against the sinful things that they do with each other.
3. No one really "enjoys" the homosexual lifestyle, because "joy" (the root of "enjoy") is something that comes only from virtuous acts, not from the barbaric acts of sodomy.
4. Just as there are MILLIONS of unmarried people who have a normal heterosexual attraction, but who live chastely (until marriage or even lifelong) because it would be improper for them to "act out," so the same chastity is expected (lifelong) of people who have the abnormal homosexual attraction. Thus, the attraction is not the same as the lifestyle.

And, please, stop using the argument "Because it is not natural" against homosexual lifestyle/people/acts/tv shows whatever."

No, we won't stop saying it, because it is true. The homosexual lifestyle has always been known to be against the "natural law," the law written on the heart of each person by his Creator, God. It's even written on your heart, Angie, but you have put a veil over it so that you don't have to look at it. You need to pray daily to be delivered of this sin, which is destroying your soul.

For the person that asked "are there gay animals?" Well, yes. It looks like your God has betrayed you, my friend, and shown you that homosexuality is OK! This is a from a source I found on the Internet ...

Yes, I knew, when I read that comment from a Catholic (above) that he shouldn't have made it, because someone like you would be able to cite this kind of quasi-scientific junk. Scientists have observed rare cases of such abnormal behavior in various species. However, the facts remain:
1. It is neither normal in man nor in these other species.
2. It is not that God made this happen in man or animals, but because things "get broke" in this imperfect world.
3. The junk you quoted has ridiculous claims that it can't even support (using the terms "transgendered" and "transvestite" about mere animals who are incapable of choice to try to justify weird human behaviors that are done by a free will to sin).

justly discriminate??! Are you serious? Look at the word, discriminate, go get a dictionary and sit down and have a read, and tell me if there is such thing as "just discrimination".

OK ... Hmmm ... There IS such a thing as "just discrimination"! And YOU practice it too, Angie! Suppose you have a six-year-old daughter (or sister, niece, etc.). Would you allow an ex-convict -- who had been a molester of little girls -- do some baby-sitting of that six-year-old loved one? Heck, no, you wouldn't -- because you JUSTLY DISCRIMINATE against him! In like manner, if I were a Catholic pastor, I would justly discriminate against you being a teacher in my parochial school, because I don't want you to spread pro-sodomy propaganda to the students (that being against Catholic doctrine).

What you are referring to is pushing your religious beliefs on other people.

No. This does not have to do merely with religion, but with the common morality shared by the vast majority of mankind -- even by atheists. The anti-sodomy position is part of the "natural law" known to all. It is just another "civil tenet" on the list of shared facts -- along with the anti-rape position, the anti-theft position, the anti-arson position, etc.. Everyone knows that rape, theft, and arson are wrong -- even atheists. In EXACTLY the same way, everyone with his head screwed on tightly knows that sodomy is wrong -- even without religion coming into the picture.

A.

-- Art (ars@gratia.artis), August 20, 2003.