Hi All,

At the risk of being labled I have to wonder about the whole Gay Bishop thing. Isn't sodomy a sin? Isn't this mentioned quite a few times in the bible? On what teological grounds can we have a Gay Bishop.

I know the Church in question in not the Catholic Church but given its close proximity to our faith has this not pushed the whole movement of Ecumenism further away than it has ever been?

-- James Xwing (james_xwing@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003

Answers

Not only is it an obstacle to ecumenism, it is also a potential source of official division within the Episcopal Church. The American Episcopal bishops will be meeting this week to decide what action to take. Our local Episcopal bishop will be holding a press conference this week to give her (yes, her) view of the situation. Episcopal priests have already been converting steadily to Catholicism in response to the increasingly liberal stance of the Episcopal Church on a variety of issues, including homosexuality, ordination of women, and abortion. I think we will see a considerable increase in such conversions as a result of this outrageous decision.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 07, 2003.

James, I think you are right.

This will be a barrier in resolving differences.

However, the conservative Episcopal church members move closer to the Catholic Church.

There has been a lot of effort in dialogue with the Anglican Communion.

There is a convergence movement in protestant churches, the Ch Charismatic Episcopal Church in partiular, that will bring people closer to the Catholic Church.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.

"What about the Gay Protestant Bishop in New Hampshire?"

hmmm... what some seem to be missing here is that he was a Gay Priest before becoming the Gay Bishop...

The Episcopals are not lost NOW -they have always been lost.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 07, 2003.

"The Episcopals are not lost NOW -they have always been lost."

lol! Like what difference does it make? What, are we supposed to be disappointed? It isn't like they were in any way part of the Mystical Body in the first place.

This and a cup of coffee will buy you Synchretism and Universalism.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 07, 2003.

Actually I kinda hope there's an exodus in the opposite direction ... the "dignity" people should now know where they really belong :=)

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 07, 2003.

This is why other religions need celibacy. It would prevent this priest from having a gay lover. Maybe not though. But the Church would never allow an openly gay person to become a bishop let alone a priest. I might support priests that are homosexual but I don't support ones that go and have sex with other men and tell everyone about it. I know that I would be very uncomfortable asking a man like that about theological issues. I can only pray that the conservative Episcapoles would leave and join the Catholic Church.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Emerald you display such prejudice and ignorance in saying 'it's not like they're a part of the mystical body anyway'. I suggest you examine yourself for arrogance and lay it down quickly at the Lord's feet. Who do you think you are that you know everyone's heart??! That's presuming people outside the Catholic realm as we know it today are lost. The way I see it, there are many of those who call themselves "Catholic" who are very disjointed from Christ's body, and those who would not call themselves "Catholic" who are a vital part of His Body. You'd better be careful and tidy up your attitude.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), August 08, 2003.

It's Catholic doctrine, Theresa.

The last thing in the world it is is ignorance.

Is that really you though? I doubt it; I think it's that imposter.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 08, 2003.

Theresa, do you know how the Anglican church was formed and why? It is the result of the arrogance of a perevert King. It should be of no surprise that the followers and leaders of that church go more into the dark into their own destruction. I wouldn't be surprised to see them fall into the hands of the enemy and be against God. Maybe that has already happened.

He who is not against God is with him, but if they are encouraging acts which he condemned, they are not with God, but someone else, who needs no introduction. It is good to know that even there there are some good people who believe in God, but it's destruction cannot be prevented.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 08, 2003.

While we're on the subject of gay bishops ...

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 08, 2003.

Only common sense is required to understand that. No man is perfect. If some of the many priests commit mistakes, it does not make the church guilty of anything. If some priests openly embrace a life of that and say it is not a sin, and if everyone wants to support it, it is totally against God and wicked, which is not the case, but which is exactly what the gay bishop phenomenon is about.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 08, 2003.

amongst the main objectors to the gay bishop is the Anglican Church of Nigeria. but guess what?!?! it practices polygamy, and calls it "Scriptural".

one days these "Christians" are gonna wake up.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 08, 2003.

Abraham:

If you're saying that it's not okay to ordain an openly gay bishop because it indicates tolerance of his behavior, then I agree.

But if you're saying that a gay bishop or priest can be tolerated as long as he keeps it quiet (don't ask don't tell ?!?) that's another matter.

Jesus reached out generously to fallen people like prostitutes (and tax collectors). But he was not too fond of hypocrites.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 08, 2003.

Will it be an easy task to have these Episcopalian clergy convert to Catholicism?

If so, can anyone convert, except of course those with annulment issues?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 08, 2003.

Em and Abe, you're missing my point. To size up the body of Christ at this point, knowing there are many folks who will convert to His Body through the fullness of Catholic truth, and be saved and brought home by Jesus, we can't presently lump all people either in or out. I know people who are in disagreement with the errors being allowed in the Episcopalean church,it's tearing them up inside and their conversion is imminent, and God knows their heart, so I'm in no position to haughtily claim an attitude that says 'they're not in the Body anyway so hell with them'.

And conversely, just because one stands there proudly with a plaquard around their neck that says "Catholic", doesn't grant them a ticket for salvation either, and there's plenty of them running around . The story's not over yet. The shaking's just beginning, and it's our job to keep our own house in order, and form an attitiude of aiming people to the truth, and rooting them on,and standing in their place pleading to the Lord for His mercy and an impartation of truth for them.

-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), August 08, 2003.

"To size up the body of Christ at this point, knowing there are many folks who will convert to His Body through the fullness of Catholic truth,..."

yep, we are definitely going to ocnvert them by telling them that they are 76% right and the passmark is 75% -- oh, and that many Catholics will only get 74% or lower.

so as we march round the town square, brains akimbo, tambourines in hand:--->>> "suush, don't mention the Virgin Mary, they don't believe in all that stuff. Real Presence -- doooooooh, not today. WE believe that, but we don't want to go upseting THEM. OK, so some of them are practicising homosexuals, some of them are well- divorced, some favor abortion... but heck its only religion after all. apparently the Pope says they'll all convert in the end....yah- de-yah-de-yah...... Cumba-ya My Lord,......"

phoney baloney.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 08, 2003.

Theresa,

Converts must accept and obey. In order to understand the what - converts require clear guidance/ministry. There is no compromise - compromise is something less than the truth. Anything other than the Catholic Church is something less than the truth -there is but black & white; no gray...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 08, 2003.

"Emerald you display such prejudice and ignorance in saying 'it's not like they're a part of the mystical body anyway'."

That was really you? Sure didn't sound like it. Well, when I hear the accusations of prejudice and ignorance I take it as a dry-ground indicator. Prejudice is always leveled by people in modern society when they hear an uncompromising stance; thing is, I don't find it listed among the Seven Deadly sins of classic Catholicism.

The ignorance charge is even more confounding. You mean, I lack the knowledge to be virtuous? If so, can virtue be taught... can it be learned, or is it a matter of the good or bad will? See, these are the common charges of the secular humanism, ignorance and bigotry. But they certainly are not a known Catholic-to-Catholic brand of admonishment.

Regarding ignorance, when you say "Emerald you display such prejudice and ignorance in saying 'it's not like they're a part of the mystical body anyway'...", for me to do otherwise is patently against the position of the Catholic Church, because exactly what the Mystical Body of Christ consists of is clearly laid out by Pope Pius XI in 1928 in the encyclical Mortalium Animos, just to pull one source. If you read that encyclical, it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are synonymous.

So to call it prejudice and ignorance is not the case at all; it's just speaking the truth, that's all. The truth as taught by the Catholic Church.

"Who do you think you are that you know everyone's heart??!"

Did I claim that I did? I didn't. Why would anyone think that I thought this? I state without qualification that I actually do not think I know everyone's heart.

"You'd better be careful and tidy up your attitude."

It isn't an attitude; it's sticking to the truth as taught by the Catholic Church ever since the day it all began.

"And conversely, just because one stands there proudly with a plaquard around their neck that says "Catholic", doesn't grant them a ticket for salvation either, and there's plenty of them running around."

Honestly, and I really mean this, I have never in my entire life ran into someone that was wearing a plaquard around their neck that says "Catholic". I swear, sometimes though, that the people that want to stand up for doctrine and holding the Faith do in fact have a sign on them, but it's on their rear and it says kick me! lol!

"The shaking's just beginning, and it's our job to keep our own house in order, and form an attitiude of aiming people to the truth, and rooting them on,and standing in their place pleading to the Lord for His mercy and an impartation of truth for them."

I agree; that's why people think I'm such a pain in the gazeesterkeeter. =) God bless. And for God's sake, hold the Faith.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), August 08, 2003.

Stephen, if the church knows that one of the priests is a homosexual and decides to ignore it, it is indeed a very serious matter. However I was saying that there might be those with intentions and practices unknown to the church. In that case we only come to know about that when things get really bad. Who is to blame?

I don't understand what is wrong with the church of England. If they are following the same bible, how come they haven't the part said there about homosexuality being one of the gravest crimes? Can anyone here supporting "gay" priests out of compassion or otherwise imagine what awaits those poor people? If a catholic with knowledge of the bible does this it is bad enough, but if a priest who has learned so much, and decided to dedicate his life for God and others do this, what terrible fate awaits them? No one seems to understand the seriousness of this matter. More than anything, their souls are at stake for which they may not have another chance.

Looking at a woman with lust is adultery itself. How grave an act is twisting the laws of nature and God and do the same thing that God really hates? All the gay supporters among christians scream aloud about being "free" and non-discriminating. They don't give any care about the soul of those individuals or what terrible fate awaits them because of the pervert act done against God.

Reading about the pains the saints had to endure to purify themselves made me very scary. I cannot even imagine how these people are going to purify themselves. They insult the blood of God by which we have one more chance. Even if God wants to forgive them, justice does not. As much loving as he is, he is just and pure, and justice has to be served. If this is the path they chose with their own free will, they will have to face the consequence, and so will those who support them instead of pointing out their errors for the sake of their souls.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 08, 2003.

Abraham, I agree with everything you say in your last post.

I am still troubled though by the idea that an openly gay priest is somehow worse than a closeted gay priest. The implication is that it is the openness rather than the homosexuality that is evil. I think it's the other way around. I think quite frankly that this Anglican "bishop-elect" is a far better man than a J-Edgar-Hooverish personality like Bishop Ryan.

-- Stephen (StephenLynn999@msn.com), August 08, 2003.

"If they are following the same bible, how come they haven't the part said there about homosexuality being one of the gravest crimes?"

sola scriptura, RIP.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 09, 2003.

Does anyone know whether this fellow is practicing his vice?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 09, 2003.

I found the answer to my own question here http://asia.news.yahoo.com/030804/afp/030804161217top.html

He has had a male live-in lover for 13 years!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 09, 2003.

..and he left his wife for his homosexual love-device.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), August 09, 2003.

On the national news a member of the Episcopalian clergy made the statement that "...homosexuality is not a sin, it is a gift from God...". A wave sadness poured over me as I heard him say that.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 09, 2003.

It is gut-wrenchingly aweful. Homosexuality is not a sin. Abortion is not a sin. Soon we will be left with the question; What is a sin? Zilcho will be the reply, as everyone "does what is right in his own eyes."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 10, 2003.

Actually, Gail, it is a teaching of the Church that homosexuality itself -- as opposed to homosexual acts -- is NOT a sin. See "LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS," much of which is excerpted on the thread "Gay priests."

God bless,

-- Charlotte (charlotte6201964@hotmail.com), August 10, 2003.

Hi Charlotte, Yes I read the article that you posted on the other thread and it is excellent. My little blurb of a post above was not at all speaking about the Church's stance on homosexuality which I wholeheartedly agree, but was rather sarcasm aimed at those who would try to bleach the Word of God of any reference to sin whatsoever.

God Bless you too!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 10, 2003.

Charlotte,

You are lost in relativity land...

Adultery is a sin and does not require an 'act'...

NOTHING regarding homosexuality is OK -NOTHING...

Further, the Church requires forgiving and guiding individuals - repentant individuals -NOT homosexuality itself...

-- Embrace the individual -- NOT the disorder...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 11, 2003.

Well, Daniel, if I'm lost in "relativity-land," at least I have His Holiness John-Paul II & Cardinal Ratzinger for company.

So try to be explicit & on point, for once, in your reply:

(a) Were you stating that you disagree with the following sentence from Section 1 of the "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons," issued by the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith on 10-1-1986, with the approval of the Pope:

"Although the particular INCLINATION of the homosexual person IS NOT A SIN, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." (emphasis added); or

(b) Were you demonstrating for the Forum why you flunked reading comprehension?

Charlotte

-- Charlotte (charlotte6201964@hotmail.com), August 11, 2003.

I agree entirely with Theresa when she wrote the following:

"Emerald you display such prejudice and ignorance in saying 'it's not like they're a part of the mystical body anyway'. I suggest you examine yourself for arrogance and lay it down quickly at the Lord's feet. Who do you think you are that you know everyone's heart??! That's presuming people outside the Catholic realm as we know it today are lost. The way I see it, there are many of those who call themselves "Catholic" who are very disjointed from Christ's body, and those who would not call themselves "Catholic" who are a vital part of His Body. You'd better be careful and tidy up your attitude."

Way to go, Theresa!

-- Luke Livingstone (luke9663@hotmail.com), August 12, 2003.

Charlotte,

Your posts are what the disagreement is with -your pastoral misguided posts...

Reread my latest and that of our Pope & Ratzinger again -compare and contrast -you will find that YOU are the lost soul that ignorantly promotes injustice...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 12, 2003.

Thanks, Daniel! The answer is (b), eh?

Charlotte

-- Charlotte (charlotte6201964@hotmail.com), August 12, 2003.

"Your posts are what the disagreement is with -your pastoral misguided posts..."

Charlotte,

Stated again above -- what you posted on the other thread is what I disagree with and has nothing whatsoever to do with "Section 1 of the "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" that you continue to drape yourself in.

-ignorance surrounded by truth is still ignorance, ignorance hidden behind truth is still ignorance...

So -to be explicit and on point I will lay it out for you clearly this evening when time permits.

P.S.

-the one option you continue to ignore... Option (c) -- Charlotte is incorrect...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 12, 2003.

The local Episcopal bishop has held a news conference on her church's new openly homosexual bishop. When asked "Is the homosexual lifestyle sinful?", she responded "You know, I have to say that I don't really know. I can't enter into the skin of my brothers and sisters. We live in an age of such contradiction and ambiguity". (In spite of her "lack of knowledge" concerning the morality of homosexuality, she voted last week for acceptance of the appointment of Bishop Robinson.)

She further said that her church is on a "journey through the wilderness" as it "seeks to determine God's will concerning homosexuality", and stated "In the midst of my own waffling, it became clear to me that I needed Gene Robinson in the wilderness with me, in order to further the conversation". When asked if she approved of same-sex "marriages", she said she had instructed the priests of her diocese not to perform such ceremonies "unless they are approved by Episcopal Church USA". She acknowledged that some priests are conducting such "weddings" anyway, but she does not "endorse them".

With "moral leadership" like this, it is little wonder that the Episcopal Church is in a rapidly accelerating downward spiral.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 13, 2003.

I wonder if there is a reference text on Christian morality she could turn to for the answer. You'd think that there would be SOMEthing she could read that would give her the answer.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), August 13, 2003.

It is sad that the "journey through the wilderness" is chosen by so many -so many lost by distancing further from the truth with each and every relative step...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 13, 2003.

I hear the sound of a huge B-52 hurling towards the ground at an accelerating speed. I see a long trail of black smoke twisting in the sky. I observer men clinging to their seats while others jump from the plane with their parachutes popping open against the blue heavens. Where are these men to land? Will they drop into the arms of refuge or the arms of lost entangling trees?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 13, 2003.