Hello all, I am so glad to have found all of you!!

I have a couple of questions, that I didn't find answers to in the archives,but I think I should give you a little history on myself first.

I was baptised and confirmed in the Catholic church, and attended parochial schools for at least half of my school career. However, my family was far from active, religiously speaking, and we almost never attended Mass, much less carried on with any of the other traditions and expectations. As I grew older, I never really cared much about my spiritual health, and just kind of went on with my life.

Now, as I've gotten older and had children, I'm interested in the Church and in God. Strangely, it was while watching "Stigmata" that I suddenly felt incredibly drawn to the Rosary, and through my daily prayers with my Rosary, I am feeling more and more in need of a closer relationship with God and the Catholic Church.

So, first question: I was previously married, and divorced, but my marriage was never annulled. I married and divorced the same man twice (long story, suffice it to say he was abusive and unfaithful, and I was just incredibly needy and vulnerable). Both times we were married in the courthouse. In the eyes of God and the Catholic Church, were these vaild marriages, since we never received the blessing of a Priest or the actual Sacrament of Marriage in a Church? If not, then I've committed a grievous sin. If it was a valid marriage, then I still need to seek an anullment then, correct? I have been divorced for eight and a half years, and my ex remarried last year.

My second question is about the scapular, and chaplets, etc. I found some resources online to teach me how to pray the Rosary (I needed to learn the Nicene Creed again, the Glory Be, the Fatima Prayer, and the Hail, Holy Queen). I'm looking now for similar sources to explain what chaplets are, what a scapular is, and how one uses them. I would also love to learn about their history.

Thanks in advance for your answers and advice; I believe you all will prove a valuable resource for me as I try to learn and deepen my relationship with God!

~Sunny

-- Sunny (medic@prtel.com), August 24, 2003

Answers

Hi Sunny thanks for the introduction... we are very glad to have you join us, welcome to our humble abode!

The above replies were written by an "imposter" who poses as other posters, please ignore this child as he is desperately seeking the attention is parents failed to give him . Poor guy.

Please be careful about getting too excited or dissapointed about annulment advice offered to you over the internet. In all likelyhood its probably not worth the disk space it occupies as your case will need a far more rigorous and extended examination of the facts than can be possible in this format. Please speak to your local priest. I do however believe (and happily stand to be corrected) that close to 90% of all annulments in the USA applied for are granted... take from that what you will.

Heres some info on chaplets and beads

http://www.viarosa.com/VR_AboutPrayerBeads.html

and a link on scapulars

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/brown_scapular.htm

If you want reliable in depth information the Catholic Encylopedia at www.newadvent.org is a vast ancient collection of anything and everything Catholic but for newcomers it can be a bit dense and hardwork. Most American Catholics seem to favour www.ewtn.com

God Bless and Good Luck!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.

Thank you, Kiwi.

I have it set up so that the system emails me replies and I noticed that the resident imposter had posted pretending to be me. I came here to make a comment about it, but it had already been removed. Thank you, whoever removed it. :)

Thanks for the links, Kiwi, I'm off to go look at them now.

~Sunny

-- Sunny (medic@prtel.com), August 25, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Sunny.
Welcome back to the Catholic faith! I too was guilty of ignoring the most important things in life -- matters spiritual -- for some years before becoming an active Catholic again almost 20 years ago.

I'd like to touch on a few things you mentioned that were not covered by Kiwi ...

You wrote: "As I grew older, I never really cared much about my spiritual health, and just kind of went on with my life. ... I was previously married, and divorced, but my marriage was never annulled. ... Both times we were married in the courthouse. In the eyes of God and the Catholic Church, were these valid marriages, since we never received the blessing of a Priest or the actual Sacrament of Marriage in a Church? If not, then I've committed a grievous sin. If it was a valid marriage, then I still need to seek an anullment then, correct? I have been divorced for eight and a half years, and my ex remarried last year."

I started the quotation with your words about how you drifted away spiritually, because I cannot tell whether or not you are saying that you formally left the Catholic Church (either renouncing it to practice no religion or to join another religious body). [You don't need to reveal this publicly.]

If you did formally leave the Church, then you are presumed still to be married (despite the two divorces) -- until the contrary is proved to the satisfaction of your diocesan marriage tribunal (which has the power to grant a Declaration of Nullity). Although you are permitted to seek such a Declaration (beginning even today), you are not required to do so. Until you receive one, though, you would have to live as though still married (not even dating).

If you never formally left the Church, though, then your attempts at marriage were not successful, because (as a Catholic) you were obliged to follow the Church's laws pertaining to marriage (e.g., to be married in a Catholic ceremony, unless you had the bishop's permission otherwise). However, you and I don't have the authority to declare your attempted marriages null and void. If you wish to be free to act as a single person, you will need the help of your (new) Catholic pastor to obtain the necessary official declaration that you were never validly married.

You later wrote: "... how to pray the Rosary (I needed to learn the Nicene Creed again, the Glory Be, the Fatima Prayer, and the Hail, Holy Queen)."

I just wanted to mention that the Rosary begins with the Apostles' Creed, rather than the Nicene. The Creed that we pray on Sunday is and expanded form of the Nicene Creed.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.

Hello John:

"I just wanted to mention that the Rosary begins with the Apostles' Creed, rather than the Nicene. The Creed that we pray on Sunday is and expanded form of the Nicene Creed."

Oops. See, my ignorance is already showing. :( I thought they were the same thing. Is there a website or some other literature I can read that explains their differences (their origins, etc)? Their wordings seem so similar to me.

I have a printed copy of prayers for the Rosary, including the Apostles' Creed, so I have been praying the correct one with my Rosary - I just called it by the wrong name in my earlier post. :)

Thanks again!

-- Sunny (medic@prtel.com), August 25, 2003.

Hi, Sunny.

This page has both Creeds we've mentioned -- and a lot more (which will help you ease yourself back into the Mass).

Here is a nice "treasury" of Catholic prayers. It may bring back some memories or just make you familiar with lots of gems that are new to you.

Feel free to keep asking questions!

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.

Thank you again, John. There is SO much I didn't learn as I was growing up, and I'm now trying to learn everything I should have years ago. For example, at one of those links you provided above, it mentions "Masses in Ordinary Time". I'm not sure what that means - 'ordinary time'. I am unsure just how (and even when) I should genuflect...I generally slink into Mass just before it starts and slide into a back pew so no one can see me screw it up.

It's been over 18 years, at least, since my last Confession, so that's on my list of first things. I know the bulletin lists times when confessions are heard, so I'm kind of thinking of this as a starting point. I also sent for a correspondence course from the KoC about Catholic Catechism (interestingly, it came today and the first course offering is: The Apostles' Creed), and any links anyone here is willing or inspired to provide would be greatly appreciated.

-- Sunny (medic@prtel.com), August 25, 2003.

Hello again, Sunny.

You've done a very good thing by getting started on that Knights of Columbus correspondence course. Those guys will keep you on the right track.

I think that I know just how you feel -- like a kid in a candy store! It is all so beautiful and fascinating, and there is just so much that it can feel overwhelming at times. My advice: Just take it easy -- a steady but limited "diet," not overdoing it. I've got news for you. There is so much to learn, so much to experience, such wonders to behold that you and I will keep unearthing more for the rest of our lives -- without ever making the well go dry. That is the inexaustible richness of God and the faith that the Holy Spirit communicates through the Church.

You asked about Ordinary Time. You probably recall that there are four special "seasons" in the liturgical calendar: Advent, Christmas, Lent, and Easter. Well, between Christmas and Lent, there is a portion of "Ordinary Time" of a varying number of weeks (usually around 7 to 11, I think), during which green is worn at Mass and there are none of the biggest feast-days of the year. Then, after Lent and Easter-time (about 7 weeks each), the bulk of the 30 or so weeks of Ordinary Time come between Pentecost and the start of Advent.

The customary times to genuflect are (1) when you are about to enter your pew for the first time, (2) when you pass in front of the tabernacle outside of Mass, and (3) when you are leaving your pew and about to exit the church. Now, though, there are lots of churches that don't have visible tabernacles (since they are kept in separate chapels, contrary to the desire of the Church) -- so it is said that, in such churches, one should instead bow profoundly to the altar (a symbol of Jesus) and make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament chapel where you can kneel.

You wrote: "I generally slink into Mass just before it starts and slide into a back pew so no one can see me screw it up."
That's nothing to worry about. I sit in the back myself all the time. I'd suggest trying to get to church a bit earlier though. Gradually, you'll even want to lengthen the time. It will help you to relax, to focus on what is about to happen, to let all the outdoor distractions slip away from your mind, etc..

Good to read about your plan to get to Confession very soon. Try to make it this week, if at all possible. You know that I know that it won't be simple, but -- oh, will it be worth it! The weight of the world will be lifted off your shoulders. I'd really recommend that you call the rectory and ask the priest if you can make an appointment for your first confession back at a special time of day, so that you can spend a good while together (unburdening yourself and getting much good advice) -- rather than trying to do this during the normal time, when other penitents are waiting in line. You have a right to request anonymity (confessing behind a screen), if you would prefer not to speak to the priest face to face.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.

Hi John I was hoping you would get to this thread, re annulment as I saw you posting the saints thread before logging off last night. I admit to being worried that people who come here which such an important decision as marriage and how such advice could impact on their realtionship with the Church and their salvation are not swayed by faulty advice from the "Karl" type response .

One question

"Now, though, there are lots of churches that don't have visible tabernacles (since they are kept in separate chapels, contrary to the desire of the Church)"

How can this be true? Ive never seen this in a New Zealand Catholic Church before although I havent been to all that many.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 26, 2003.

Hi, Kiwi.
I just want to make sure I understand your question correctly. Are you asking, "How can it be true that some churches now no longer have the tabernacle visible within the sanctuary?" Are you saying that every church you have entered in NZ has a visible tabernacle?
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 26, 2003.

Are you saying that every church you have entered in NZ has a visible tabernacle?

Yes of course! Although there was a ten or so year gap where I never went to Mass so I guess those Churches may have moved the tabernacle, but I doubt it! Why would you have the Blessed Sacrament anywhere else? Does it relate to the idea that the tabernacle reflects a private refelective personal form of worship best done in a chapel while inside the Church should be a time of commmunity celebration etc . Strange to have it removed completley IMo.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 30, 2003.

Jmj

Kiwi,
I didn't mean to imply that there are churches in which there is no tabernacle at all -- or in which people are forbidden to go to where the tabernacle is.

Instead, I meant to say that, beginning in the 1970s, there were two misunderstandings -- in some "Western" nations -- of comments made in Vatican documents about the placement of the tabernacle. Two things happened as a result:
1. In many churches, tabernacles were moved to "side altars" (off the central axis, but still in the sanctuary, visible to all entering the church).
2. In many churches, small chapels (some too small, some almost hidden, some poorly adorned) were built to contain the tabernacle -- nearly or completely invisible to people in the main body of the church.

One excuse given for these actions is that people could supposedly be confused by the reserved Presence of Jesus in a centrally visible tabernacle -- simultaneous with the Presence of Jesus coming into being on the altar during Mass.

Some people believe, though, that the real motivations were (1) a lack of faith (by some pastors) in the Real Presence of Jesus reserved in the tabernacle, (2) a belief that the Church wanted to suppress Eucharistic devotion outside Mass, and (3) a misguided belief that hiding something [Someone] that divides Catholics from other Christians would help ecumenical efforts. [Goofy ideas #2 and #3 also led to the cessation of the rite of Benediction, the removal of statues and other sacramentals from some parish churches, and other mistakes that have now begun to be undone -- as a new, orthodox, and better educated generation of priests and bishops make their presence felt.]

I mentioned that there were misunderstandings of Vatican documents (of the 1970s, I think). At least one of these mentioned the possibility of a separate chapel. It took many years, unfortunately, for the Vatican to clarify that this was intended to be something implemented only in churches (and cathedrals, basilicas, shrines, missions, etc.) that are frequented by large groups of roaming, sometimes noisy tourists. In such places as these, it is easy to see the appropriateness and need for a special, accessible, nobly adorned chapel wherein the faithful could adore the Blessed Sacrament. The Basilica of St. Peter in Vatican City has such a chapel. There may be one or more such chapels in your nation -- e.g., in big-city cathedrals.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), August 31, 2003.

Sunny, I'm going to keep things super simple with you at first because you have a ton of responses.

You said you were married both times in the courthouse. This is the key to everything. You were not married in God's church. Therefore you do not need an annulment. Annulments have nothing to do with civil ceremonies. You are a free woman in God's eyes. You merely have to confess these civil marriages in confession and that's all there is to it and make a good act of contrition (the original one). Not from the list of the ones the priest tells you that you can choose from. Be careful of this. The following Act of Contrition has been taken from the original Baltimore Catechism of which copy I am in possession of. You may Copy and take this with you to confession.

Oh my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee. I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains hell, but most of all because they offend Thee my God who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

-- (dutchee@sbcglobal.net), September 04, 2003.

The above post is full of misinformation. First, the fact that you were not married in God's Church is precisely the reason that you absolutely DO need a decree of annulment! Confessing a previous marriage which was not contracted according to the teaching of the Church CANNOT guarantee that you are free to marry. ONLY a decree of nullity can give you this assurance. Annulments apply to ALL previous marriages, civil or otherwise.

Any act of contrition that includes both remorse for offenses committed and a firm resolve not to commit the offense again is perfectly valid. There is absolutely NO requirement to use the old Act of Contrition listed in the Baltimore Catechism, though it is as valid as any other form.

When someone says "do what I tell you, not what your priest tells you", that's an immediate red flag, and good reason to keep your distance from that person, and to be highly suspicious of any advice they may offer. The person who posted the above misinformation is apparently a self-styled "traditionalist", not an orthodox Catholic, so if it is Catholic truth you are seeking, I would advise you to seek elsewhere.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 04, 2003.