Hello,

I was browsing the internet (What a great resource huh?) for answers to questions about the Catholic church that my wife has. I came across your message board while searching for an answer to Priests and celibacy. I have a lot of answers to most these questions that I've left off for ease of reading. I was wondering if you guys would mind assisting me in answering these questions.

My Father-in-law is not letting me lead my family(wife, three three year-olds turning four this Monday, and four-month old). I make progress with her and my father-in-law , who happens to be an elder at the church of christ(non-instrumental), seems to dissolve any progress I've made with my family.

I realize there is so much to answer, and understand if this is too much to ask. I read briefly your forum rules, and hope that I'm not too much out of the boundaries.

Some of his statements seem so off the wall to me, but I will post in it's entirety. *********************************************************************

2 Tim. 2:15 “Study and rightly divide”

Who is the teacher of the Scriptures?

Jn 14:26 Jn 16:13 Acts 1-8 Acts 15:1-2 Acts 16:4

Note: Jesus was only speaking to the Apostles!!

If the Apostles’ passed their gifts on, why has there not been ONE miracle since their deaths?? Mt. 10:1- 1 Cor. 13:8-13

Holy oils and wearing of garments were customs of that time. Do Catholics wash each others’ feet? Do Catholics greet one another with a holy kiss?

Old Test. Canceled Col. 2:9-14 Heb 8:6-13 Heb. 9:11-15 Heb. 10:1-4

Where in the Bible are these terms or acts of worship mentioned?

Mass Pope Holy water Sacraments Eucharist Catholic

Praying to Mary and Saints…..John 14:6 tells us we must only go through Jesus!!

Calling a priest Father Mt. 23:9 “call no man your Father” ( notice the capitalization)

Is it right to refer to a man as our spiritual Father???

1 Tim 4:1-5 1Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 for every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving: 5 for it is sanctified by the work of God and prayer ************************************************************* FYI

Most of my defensive studying has been done through Scott Hahn's tapes. I access the net and Catholic.com frequently.

-- Jim williams (jimfwilliams@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003

Answers

jim, i dont know that i am the best to respond, but i'll take the mantle of first to respond. im unsure about the meaning of some of his comments, but where i am unclear i will try to work around it. here goes:

2 Tim. 2:15 “Study and rightly divide”

i would answer that a house divided cannot stand.

Who is the teacher of the Scriptures?

the disciples of Christ, who were and are today the bishops of the church. they are also the sole infallable interpreter of scripture, dogma, and revelation. see "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Jn 14:26 Jn 16:13 Acts 1-8 Acts 15:1-2 Acts 16:4

Note: Jesus was only speaking to the Apostles!!

then i guess that the whole belief system and church that Christ built was just for the apostles. guess we can pretty much throw out all of todays religion as a farse, since Christ was only talking to the apostles when he called them to go out and make disciples of all nations.

If the Apostles’ passed their gifts on, why has there not been ONE miracle since their deaths?? Mt. 10:1- 1 Cor. 13:8-13

somebody needs to do some research on miracles if they believe this is true: Lourdes, Padre Pio, our Lady of Fatima, our Lady of Guadalupe (SP?), countless exorcisms, conversions of entire nations, prophecies coming true, saints bodies not corupting even in death, miraculous healings through prayer.

The truth of the matter is that these miracles arent present IN HIS CHURCH. he cant recognize these miracles, because to do so would mean that he would have to admit his church cant produce miracles, and hence, he is wrong.

Holy oils and wearing of garments were customs of that time. Do Catholics wash each others’ feet? Do Catholics greet one another with a holy kiss?

yes, we do wash each others feet, on occasion. tell him to go to (is it easter vigil?) and he'll see this in practice. we dont greet each other with a holy kiss, but at the consecration of the cross, we kneel and kiss the cross.

Old Test. Canceled Col. 2:9-14 Heb 8:6-13 Heb. 9:11-15 Heb. 10:1-4

nope, if anything in those books says the like of the old testament being cancelled its a piss poor translation. Christ himself told us that He "did not come to abolish the old law, but to fulfill it" so we know that this is true. what isnt true is father in laws faulty interpretation of texts that were written above his reading level.

Where in the Bible are these terms or acts of worship mentioned?

okay, here goes... but before i start, ask him where SOLA SCRIPTERA appears in the Bible (hint, it doesnt, but by saying it in latin instead of just 'only scripture' protestants make it sound like it comes from the scripture.)

Mass

the mass is, in essense a participation in the last supper. it is the paschal sacrifice in which the bread is broken and changed into the body and blood of Christ. if he wants to see the mass in the Bible, he should read the gospels. the mass is a mirror of Christs life.

Pope

"you are my Petros (rock), and on this cephas(stone/rock) i build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

and the right of succession has passed down ever since...

Holy water

baptism, why was the particular river that john the baptist baptised in so special? because it was considered Holy to the people. besides, water has always been at least symbolic of life and regrowth.

Sacraments

unless you eat my body and drink my blood you shall not have life in you... go now and take confessions... whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven... etc, the list goes on. okay, the word sacrament isnt in the Bible, but its pretty clear they are all there.

Eucharist

again if this isnt in his Bible, perhaps he should make sure that when his church was cropping the Bible to fit its needs, they didnt remove the last supper as well. the eucharist is the last supper.

Catholic

the word catholic means universal. Christ called for one universal church, hence he called for one CATHOLIC church.

Praying to Mary and Saints…..John 14:6 tells us we must only go through Jesus!!

john tells us that forgiveness from sins comes only through Jesus. incorrect interpretation tells us otherwise. intercession in the form of prayer can come through anybody and be on the behalf of anyone. would you ask a friend to pray for you? why is mary or the sainst consider bretheren in the faith? does he really believe that when you die you lose all communication with God, and cant pray for others anymore?

Calling a priest Father Mt. 23:9 “call no man your Father” ( notice the capitalization)

its call no man ABBA. there are three words for father used in the Bible. two have nothing to do with God. the last one, ABBA, is used for spiritual father, not earthly father. BUT in english, there are many words which translate into only one english word, which causes huge confusion when you are trying to personally interpret the Bible. simply put, he doesnt have enough grasp of linguistics to know what hes talking about.

Is it right to refer to a man as our spiritual Father???

no, and catholics dont really do this. if hes talking about the pope in reference to spiritual father, thats a way of saying spiritual leader, not a reference to the pope as being our creator, or our savior. perhaps if he attended a couple masses with you he might better understand instead of sticking his foot in his mouth so much.

sorry for the long post, and you'll probably get a better one from somebody else, but good luck

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 24, 2003.

To the idiot above, it's called - Sola Scriptura. When you try to look intelligent, don't speak in Latin, 'cause you're not!

-- Pinguin (Hic@herto.cum), September 24, 2003.

2 Tim. 2:15 "Study and rightly divide"

Here is RSV:

2 Tim 2:15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

In what translation of the Bible are these words part of this verse? Do you have another verse in mind?

-- (Anon@anon.com), September 24, 2003.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus calls other men "fathers" all the time! Before and AFTER the verse where he tells the disciples to "call no man father"...thus the literal interpretation of this verse is NOT THE WAY IT CAN BE TAKEN.

Paul called himself father of Timothy.

John called the Christians "his children" - by implication, making himself their spiritual father.

Jesus commanded people to obey the commandments - one of which is listed as "obey your father and mother".

You might also ask your Protestant friend where "the Incarnation" is found in the Bible - yet it's a belief all Protestants have. How about the Trinity... the word is not there either...yet we all believe in the concept.

Ah, they might say, well, in John the "Word is made flesh", and that is summed up in the word "Incarnation"...bingo! Exactly the case with all the other questions - the concept is there, but the technical term was developed later by the Church to help define what we do and do not believe.

The fact is, Christians have always had access to the scriptures, and there have always been people with questions and faulty understandings and pride - which leads to either heresy or schism either only accepting part (haereses in greek) of the faith, or only accepting their own authority...

And so the Catholics have had to deal with arguments and disagreements for 20 centuries...most Protestants re-invent the whole wheel every generation so don't appreciate the complexity of problems, or the need for creeds, catechisms, technical terms, etc.

Then there is the non-theological problems which stem from cultural superficiality: i.e. lack of cultural depth.

For example: for Protestants, (which are technically all just lay people), they call "worship" what is merely singing hymns and reading the Gospel. So they have a "liturgy of the word" only.

Yet for the Jews (and indeed all other religions), "worship" requires SACRIFICE. So the Temple "sacrifice" required the blood of goats and sheep. The Passover was also a "sacrifice" - the lamb was slain... blood was shed.

In Christianity the Last Supper was the Passover - and thus, only the Mass which is the liturgy of the word and eucharist, is sacrificial and thus true worship.

Everything else is other than worship.

Catholics therefore can distinguish between worship (sacrifice), adoration, hyperdulia (high praise), dulia (honor), liturgy, and prayer.

When we pray and sing hymns...we are praying and singing hymns. When we honor the saints with flowers and honorable mention...we are honoring them, not worshipping them, or Mary, or angels.

But since Protestants very CULTURE doesn't reflect the differentation, they confuse one thing for another.

In Protestantism when a pastor has a falling out with the church, he often will go off and found his own church, and develop his own doctrine which people are free to pick and choose.

Yet in Catholicism, this doesn't happen. Parishes and Dioceses may differ in rite or charism (diocesan or religious) but they see themselves as all local manifestations of the One Church.

You might ask how Protestants can POSSIBLY CLAIM TO BE TRULY HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM when their small independent churches can't possibly claim to have members from every tribe and language - whereas the Catholic Church always has been international and for a long time has had members on every continent and in every country.

Finally, being a well informed and formed Catholic automatically makes the whole "criteria for credibility" debate lopsided in our favor. We have 2000 years worth of great writers, preachers, teachers, and saints to back up our own study of the scripture and God's will... Most protestants have only a couple of decades of "tradition" to fall back on. So while each pastor Bob has to try to reinvent the wheel, we just fall back on tried and true teaching.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

Shalom Jim,

If you don't mind, we will take a gander at some these questions. The one reference given was:

>>>2 Tim. 2:15 "Study and rightly divide"

Which says, "So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

However, we should also read this in light of Jn.16.12-15:

"I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own Authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that ARE TO COME."

One of these things they could "not bear" then we believe is the book of Revelation in which the first paragraph states this will not come to full fulfillment until it can be read with true understanding (see http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/rev-chapt1a.html for where we came by this understanding). Clearly this wasn't true in the first century as Yeshua (Jesus) didn't return then nor has He up until now. So we have a problem understanding by their interpretation of 2Tim.2.15 that could they discern the Scripture's true interpretation without tradition when Yeshua (Jesus) also warned us that in that same day:

"For false Christ's and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead stray, if possible, even the elect. Lo, I have told you before hand. So if they say to you, 'Lo, he is in the wilderness (or in isolation)' do not go to him, if they say, 'Lo, he is in the upper room (5009- privacy, distributor, or storehouse),' do not believe it." Matt.24.24-26

It will not come from isolated prophets, or private revelations and we should be weary of those places of origin. It will come Yeshua (Jesus) said:

"For as lightning comes from the EAST and shines as far as the west, so will the COMING of the Son of man. Wherever the body is, there the eagles (vultures) will be gathered." Matt.24.27-28

Not in isolation, not by private revelation but from the EAST, where the body gathers- that is in ROME! Only Roman Catholicism has historically gathered its bishops and laity together for such councils where the council's decisions have also been visible "as far as the west". Put simply, when the pope and the Magisterium speak, people may not listen but no one could claim he/they didn't speak!

>>>Who is the teacher of the Scriptures? Note: Jesus was only speaking to the Apostles!!

>>>Jn 14:26 Jn 16:13 Acts 1-8 Acts 15:1-2 Acts 16:4

We actually dealt with this above.

>>>If the Apostles' passed their gifts on, why has there not been ONE miracle since their deaths?? Mt. 10:1- 1 Cor. 13:8-13

As John G. pointed out there been many, many miracles; and as Catholics who are part of a Sacramental Church these things are part and parcel of the fabric of our faith. Yet if these same miracles seem far fewer in our day, perhaps it is as we already pointed out in the post on miracles, that faith also is extremely weak especially here in the west.

>>>Holy oils and wearing of garments were customs of that time. Do Catholics wash each other's feet? Do Catholics greet one another with a holy kiss?

The shepherd of each parish and his fellow leaders literally wash the feet of their flock on Holy Thursday though all Catholics should be spiritually doing this throughout the year. Greeting one another "with a holy kiss" is the root of the tradition for the sign of peace, which is part of the daily mass.

Since the view of this person is to prescribe to every minor detail, we now have to ask if they abstain from the blood (see Acts 15)?

>>>Old Test. Canceled Col. 2:9-14 Heb 8:6-13 Heb. 9:11-15 Heb. 10:1-4

John G. mentioned the most of the points we would, except that in Heb.8.13 Paul states:

"In speaking of the New Covenant He TREATS the first as obsolete"

Who was speaking of the New Covenant? Wasn't it G-d through the prophet Jeremiah, that is, wasn't Paul referencing Jer.31.31-34? And yet had this meant the Old Covenant is dead, then why does the text of Jer.31-31-34 state that what He wrote upon our heart His TORAH (see original Hebrew)? Put simply his interpretation, and it is an interpretation, brings about a contradiction, not only in Matt.5.17- 20 (which John G. explained). Yet the old SACRIFICIAL system for sins (which was the topic of the entire book of Hebrews) was never eternal, however there was one which was eternal and that is the Thanksgiving Sacrifice which was fulfilled and made greater in the Eucharist. It is this which was "becoming obsolete", "growing old" and that was "ready to vanish away" in Paul's day. In 70 CE/AD it died with the destruction of the Holy Temple and it has been gone for the last two thousand years. Yet Jews still abide the other traditions in the Torah and the Catholic Church maintains the eternal Thanksgiving Sacrifice in Diaspora.

>>>Where in the Bible are these terms or acts of worship mentioned?

>>>Mass

Mal.1.11-12 explains the Eucharist table and "fruit" and the Jewish Temple and Synagogue services are the sources for most of our later Catholic traditions. What are the sources of Protestant fellowship services?

>>> Pope

Please see http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/petersseat.html and http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/zech5.html

>>>Holy water

This service was once limited to the holy Temple and the priesthood, however this moved outside the Temple after Yeshua came, Jn.4.22-24.

>>>Sacraments

We'll take one Sacrament at time and start with the Eucharist because this is the area we have done the most Scriptural research in defense of our Church. Yet if we can prove the Eucharist is true and uphold the Church, then by default the others should also be upheld because the Roman Catholic Church is the only present day Church who sees this in its greatest fulfillment.

>>>Eucharist

Please see http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/Eucharist.html

>>>Praying to Mary and Saints…..John 14:6 tells us we must only go through Jesus!!

The only thing we would add to John G' s point is that Catholicism is a Church of the living, not the dead, which is why we sing "Faith of our father's LIVING STILL". The fact that we ask them prayers is not a sign of our lack of faith in the resurrection, but rather proof of how deeply we believe in this doctrine.

>>>Calling a priest Father Mt. 23:9 "call no man your Father" (notice the capitalization)

>>>Is it right to refer to a man as our spiritual Father???

The only reason that these words are sometimes Capitalized is because of English grammar that is we capitalize all proper names and TITLES and not because the pope is equal to G-d. Also the above Scriptural passage is badly misinterpreted, even by many lay Catholics. Someday we hope to get a write up on this to show why this is so, but briefly we can say that Yeshua (Jesus) was referencing the way Jews claimed rights based on their ancestral tribe, "we are the children of Levi" or "we are the children of Judah" and yet He was widening the family tribe and do this these familial connotations for who were are had to end. We have ONE FATHER in heaven, not Jacob, not Joseph, not Av'raham, but the G-d of Jacob, Joseph, and Av'raham. We are all one people, equal in the eyes of G-d.

>>>1 Tim 4:1-5 1Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 for every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving: 5 for it is sanctified by the work of God and prayer.">>>

And Protestants are correct in that we have seen such a falling away in our day, yet in no way can we see this placed upon Catholicism. Those who try, we believe are guilty of legalism. For example, Catholics are not "forbidding marrying" for we see marriage as a Sacramental institution and holy, yet few Catholics freely CHOOSE not to marry for even Yeshua (Jesus) said, "and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this let him receive this." Matt.19.12; and this too is a sacramental institution and holy!

Also nowhere does our Church "commanding to abstain from foods" though she did leave open the right for her flock to freely choose to: "It condemns, then, no kind of food that human society accepts and nobody at all neither man nor woman, should make a distinction between animals, no matter how they died; although for the health of the body, for the practice of virtue or for the sake of regular and ecclesiastical discipline many things that are not proscribed can and should be omitted, as the apostle says all things are lawful, but not all are helpful." And even her own right to define such times of "ecclesiastical discipline" such as in Lent. Yet just as one can chose to be a priest or not, one can also chose to be a Catholic or not for their is no forcing anybody to do anything!

Like John G. we also are sorry for the length of this, however lists like these usually tend to create long responses if the arguments contained within them are to be answered properly. This is why we will provide links to former writings for some answers, otherwise we all may be writing books just to give an answer.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), September 24, 2003.

Shalom,

We notice it was Paul not John G. that had that excellent response. Sorry for getting you two mixed up.

Shalom C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), September 24, 2003.

On a cursory glance it seems the conduit to your Father-in-law is your wife.

It is her obligation to gently but firmly inform him that you and she are one. His authority over her changed to a consulting/example role when she became an adult and further diminished when she married you.

She should listen to her father's guidance always with the honor it deserves but she should not allow his influence to harm the family you and she have created. If his influence tends to destroy a union which God has joined together it is not likely that the greater good will be served much less will God be honored or even considered.

Your wife must chose you or Dad. It is her decision. Good luck, you are atop a powder keg. I hope your marriage survives.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@htomail.com), September 24, 2003.

Just a bit of trivia, if I can be forgiven for inserting it ...

Jim said that his father-in-law is an elder in the "church of christ (non-instrumental)."

Some of the current form "regulars" have been around long enough to remember some of the waves of obnoxious anti-Catholic attacks from tenacious members of the "church(es) of Christ". In 19th-century U.S.A., a small group of men (who had been in various "mainstream" Protestant denominations), led by a father and son named Campbell, decided to found yet another denomination -- though they claimed that it was the restoration of the true New Testament Church (and therefore not a denomination). This was the "church of Christ."

However, as always happens within a body that was founded by men, rather than by God, the CoC eventually began to splinter. I don't have any idea how many denominations now could look to the Campbellist "church" as its ancestor, but I do know that two of them are the "instrumental church of Christ" and "non-instrumental church of Christ." Did you guess what this means? One group split from the other over a disagreement about whether the New Testament permits or forbids the use of musical instruments for singing at worship services! If Jim's father-in-law won't even allow an organ to accompany singing, you can imagine how much Jim and his wife need our prayers.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.

Jim,

I won't even take a stab at answering your questions about the Faith, as I'm sure you'll find the information you need here as well as at other sources if you seek it sincerely.

What I will suggest, on the subject of your family situation is to immediately purchase and read this book. It's fantastic, and will give you many new insights into what the God-intended role for men is in relation to their families and society.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), September 24, 2003.

Thank you for your answers and I appreciate your prayers. I'm going to work from the last submissions to the first submissions. I really appreciate all of your help.

Jake, Thanks for the reference, I'll be purchasing it soon. I am sincere, but fearful my motivation is wrong.

John, I found a great site from a Catholic that addresses the major issues with the church of Christ. http://grigaitis.net/articles/cocdenom.html It's comical the church of Christs' insistence of being non-denominatiol and I love the way the author of that site addresses their hypocrisy. One thing I have to admit, they are great singers...

Karl,

Well put! I long for the day that we are one. It's funny how much the church of Christ emphasizes submission to husbands and how chauvinistic my father-in-law is, but won't let us be married. I've been told that because Catholics aren't Christians, she doesn't have to submit.

It's unfortunate that I've had to give her an ultimatum, but it's been done.

C & C, Joe, and Paul,

Thank you so much for your wonderful effort. I stayed up late last night compiling initial responses and your insight will be plagiarized in my final draft(does this constitute a reference). In the initial email my wife sent me, I responded back with the normal questions for qualifying the Bible. I'm pretty sure they will have a response for that and hope that you guys are as enthusiastic about the response as you were for my initial post.

Pinguin,

Why not use your talent for good and not evil?

One more thing...Where in the Bible is the term Bible used?

Again, Thank you so much

Jim

-- Jim Williams (jimfwilliams@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003.

jim,

plagurize away (its not really my knowledge, its the teaching of the church that ive just paraphrased), you might want to correct some of my spelling first though.

also, bring on the complaints. because i was forced to attend protestant churches as a child, one of my strengths is addressing any mud a protestant can throw...

as for pinguin...

please forgive me if i cant spell Sola scriptura properly, but seeing as it is a philosophy created by men to lead souls away from God and to their own fancies of religion, i've never bothered to learn the word. perhaps, however, you will look past a couple of spelling errors and see the point, which is saving souls... not proving my own intellect (as you seem to be so keen on)

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 25, 2003.

Thanks much, Jim, for that "grigaitis" URL to a very interesting article. I have bookmarked it for future use.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003.

I have heard the Pope referred to as "Holy Father". I don't see how this could be interpretted any other way than spiritual father. He certainly is not my earthly father. If this is not the case, then the Catholic Church should forbid its use. Holy is a pretty serious word, especially in this context.

-- Bryan (bpilati@yahoo.com), October 06, 2003.

Well of course it means spiritual father. What else could it mean? In the same sense that the Apostle Paul used the term when he wrote ... "For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (1 Corinthians 4:15)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 06, 2003.

no, no, no, NO, bryan

if you knew enough about aramaic and greek it would be useful to you, but as you understand your own reading only endangers your faith with a false sense of security in your beliefs.

the word ABBA is indeed the word for father... in a spiritual or HEAVENLY sense. in original language it could NEVER be confused with any spiritual father on earth. unless a person thought that the pope really was God, then it could not have the same context. sorry to dissappoint.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 07, 2003.