I don't mind someone believing with all their heart the doctrine they have been taught. I don't mind the items you listed from the "creed". Those points were fine, however salvation does not come through the Catholic Church. My salvation rests upon my faith in the Lord, baptism by authorized representatives, continued good works, and a life long attempt at improving myself. I am created in the image of God. Jesus however is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. He is my exemplar. My feelings about the Catholic church are not the point. Jesus is savior not the Catholic Church. Jesus is the Son of God. The Catholic Churchis not the Son of God. Whether it is His Church is the point of difference. Oh by the way. The scriptures were given to men that through the Holy Ghost's inspiration those same men might see truth from falsehood. So it is appropriate that the Spirit use the scriptures the discern truth from error. You would eliminate the scriptures from mans library so that man could listen only to Catholic priests? All the prophets quoted from the scriptures, Stephen from the scriptures taught those who stoned him. It is appropriate for the members of His church to quote the scriptures and appropriate for those seeking guidance to ask questions about them. It is essential that men seek God in prayer for understanding of them and about all parts of their lives. Even those who so persecute those of us who have the fulness of the gospel, are not considered our enemies. Jesus asked for forgiveness for those men who put him to death.

-- Frank Godfrey (fgodfrey@macu.org), October 03, 2003

Answers

You state: "salvation does not come through the Catholic Church. My salvation rests upon my faith in the Lord, baptism by authorized representatives, continued good works, and a life long attempt at improving myself"

A: My salvation rests on those very same principles. But you miss the point. If not for the Church, you would never even have heard of your Lord. You would never have received baptism. The Church is the means God has provided for men to know Him. The Church is the means God has provided to minister the sacraments. And please don't say "the Bible, not the Church", for the Bible also came to us through the Church. The Church existed before the Bible, and if the Church had not existed, neither would the Bible. So, everything we have that benefits us unto eternal salvation came to us through the Church.

The Bible tells us ... "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. How will they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? (Romans 10:13-15) The obvious next question in this sequence is "who will send them forth to preach"? The obvious answer - the Church. The Church to which Christ commanded "go forth and make disciples of all peoples".

You state: "The scriptures were given to men that through the Holy Ghost's inspiration those same men might see truth from falsehood. So it is appropriate that the Spirit use the scriptures the discern truth from error."

A: Yes, that is correct. The scriptures, when subjected to accurate and authoritative interpretation. do indeed help us discern between truth and falsehood. The doctrinal chaos of the Protestant tradition clearly demonstrates that the method they employ - personal interpretation of the scriptures - cannot possibly be accurate; and it is not accurate because it is not authoritative. Hundreds of conflicting beliefs cannot represent truth; therefore they represent false hood. Where then can we find true and authoritative interpretation of the scriptures? Obviously, in the Church. The Church to which Jesus Himself said "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven", and "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth". Did He say this to you? Or to me? No, He said it to the leaders of the Church He founded, no-one else! And that Church remains unified in its teaching after 2,000 years. Truth cannot exist without unity. The short history of Protestantism is a history of disunity, division, and false beliefs.

You ask: "You would eliminate the scriptures from mans library so that man could listen only to Catholic priests?"

A: What kind of absurd question is that? Who suggested rejecting the scriptures? The Catholic Church compiled the Bible for its own use. Why then would it reject its own book? The Mass, the central act of Christian worship, is filled with scripture. Do you think priests make up their own doctrine as they go along, like independent Protestant ministers do? Priests receive correct and truthful teaching from the same source as other Catholics - the Church! That's why a Catholic priest in America and one in Swizerland and another in China all preach the SAME gospel, while two Baptist ministers in the same town may preach conflicting personal interpretations of the Bible. That's also why scripture identifies the Church as "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15). Is the Church your foundation of truth? If not, why not? The Bible, which you claim to follow, says it is supposed to be.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 03, 2003.

You say that the early Christians quoted scripture a lot. But guess what, they were quoting the OLD TESTAMENT. Paul didn't even know about the New Testament because it wasn't around until the 300s.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 04, 2003.

Shalom Frank,

We wonder if part of the issue you are bringing up is the questioning the "why" to papal infallibility, or perhaps merely seeking to condemn this? We ask because even though all you say seems true, did not the L-rd say He would write that Torah upon out hearts (Jer.31.33), and not just within His Word?

Also, in Matthew 23 and you'll find that Yeshua (Jesus) is reprimanding the scribes and Pharisees, yet before He begins, He declares quite clearly that the people are to follow the teachings of these same "hypocrites" for they sit upon the seat of Moshe (Moses). So when did this authority begin? With Moshe and it continued to every shepherd of His flock since then. Then we see that Yeshua also established the same authority through Peter when He declared that Peter has the right to "loosen and bind". Of course we can see that this actually is setting up for a great miracle that will show itself in the End Times, which we feel we may be living in today. He also opened this miracle up through Vatican II we believe (see "Vatican II meets Fatima and La Salette" and http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/PRDS.html explain those teachings we are alluding to) by giving the children of His highly disciplined Church the right to study His Word and glean truths therein. From these we believe He will draw out E'phraim from within our Church to defend their Church Scripturally on pronouncements she got from Above from the Holy See or though Ecumenical Councils. You can find where we drew this view out from Scripture at: http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/Is.28.1-4.html

Also if you are interested in a Scriptural answer to your questions we may have these already at: http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/Mysteries.html

Also note, our work is far from complete so if you do not find the answer you are seeking at either of these sites please let us know what you are interested in understanding and we'll be happy to assist you in any way we can.

In Yeshua HaMoshiach that is Jesus our L-rd, Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 05, 2003.

You say that the early Christians quoted scripture a lot. But guess what, they were quoting the OLD TESTAMENT. Paul didn't even know about the New Testament because it wasn't around until the 300s.

all of that, and this was the ONLY rebuttal you could come up with??? some tidbit of history that even every half catholic should know? please. harden not your heart to truth.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 05, 2003.

We are in a great mess right now.

The reason for our concern is that Americans are beginning to realize that the present war upon Iraq in which we find ourselves embroiled is not being fought because Iraq is a danger to America, but to further the interests of the state of Israel. If they have their way, American blood will be shed, as our armies take on, one after another, the enemies of Israel, nations which are mostly Arab and Muslim. The present administration, pressured by powerful Jewish advisors, and deluded by Evangelical Christians of the Hal Lindsay type, who follow the Jewish Zionist reading of the Old Testament concerning the destiny of the Jews, now consider it the "manifest destiny" of America to war against the enemies of Israel, the nations that stand in the way of it's grandiose plans forexpanding into 'Greater Israel'.

We are losing fine young Americans, spending billions, and for what. The Church is saying that the Jews are saved "through" the Church. When did you ever hear this before V2? Not only our nation, but our Church is suffering.

-- Jimmy (jimboya@earthlink.com), October 08, 2003.

Replying to the one that knows the truth...I agree with you brother. My wife is Catholic and i cant believe the Garbage they believe. when they take communion they dont do so in memory of Christ death, They think that waffer becomes a body in them and thats complete cannableism. Better yet it discusses me as a independant fundamental Baptist saved Bible believer when they think salvation comes by baptism. WHAT BIBLE ARE THEY READING? its obvious satan is behind this religion being they couldnt compare scripture to scripture. Im glad my Jesus was crucified once and not daily since they keep him on the cross....and also im glad i have a Holy father in heaven to pray to not some sinner priest or Mary.

I have all respect for Mary but as the mother of Jesus NOT co- redeemer. lastly: Im glad the one who saved me in 1987 and my bord is in heaven and not some false sinner based in Rome!

-- Al (Alecox0426@aol.com), November 11, 2003.

Al, Al, Al,

it is amazing to me that you can think such horrible things about the faith of a woman you purport to love and post this here. nonetheless, i will respond to that.

Replying to the one that knows the truth...I agree with you brother.

no you dont, because you dont know the truth. But you will. I pray it will not come to you too late.

My wife is Catholic and i cant believe the Garbage they believe.

First, have you TOLD your wife you think that her faith is garbage??? i bet that makes for interesting dinner conversation. second, this is a catholic forum. you dont need to address us as "they." think of it this way, youre visiting our home. it is impolite, then, to speak of us in the third person while we are present.

when they take communion they dont do so in memory of Christ death, They think that waffer becomes a body in them and thats complete cannableism.

we do take communion in the memory of Christ's death. at every mass before communion the story of the last supper is recanted INCLUDING the line about "do this in memory of Me."

We also know that transubstatiation (the turning of bread and wine into the Body and Blood) occurs. how do we know??? scripture told us. Jesus tells us that "unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you shall not have life in you." how, then, do you propose to prove that one can have eternal life when Jesus clearly described this integral requirement???

finally, cannabalism would involve eating the flesh of another human. Jesus had an element which was fully human and an element which was fully divine. in the communion the body and blood we partake of (as commanded) are the essense of God. therefore this cant even be remotely considered cannabalism. even so, the command by Jesus to do this is not based on your social qualms at all, as it was not back then either.

Better yet it discusses me as a independant fundamental Baptist saved Bible believer when they think salvation comes by baptism. WHAT BIBLE ARE THEY READING?

ahem... we do NOT believe that salvation comes through baptism. we believe that baptism is an integral component of salvation, but we do not extend that to encompass the entire scope of salvation's requirements. please, dont tell us what we believe, we already know. second of all, we all read the bible, and even quoting your protestant version i can see where Jesus tells people that they cannot be saved without first being reborn in baptism, where he commands disciples to go out and baptise, where he tells people that all must be baptised. so the question isnt what bible are WE reading, its what bible ARENT YOU reading???

its obvious satan is behind this religion being they couldnt compare scripture to scripture.

no, child, what is obvious is that satan is behind your belief, which purports to tell us that scripture is contradictory, truth against truth, and that God did not inspire all parts of the bible. once you walk down that path you have to reject the bible in entirity because you cant know what parts are inspired or not. and then youre left with tradition alone and a doubt that God inspires anything at all. no thanks.

instead, if you actually read the bible, you would see that the only way it can make sense is the Catholic way. all of your false interpretations point to conflicting verses, which is why you can say something so stupid as "they couldnt compare scripture to scripture." true inspiration in interpretation (the type founded by Jesus in his catholic church) needs no connection, the interpretation cannot be contradicted because the interpretation itself is inspired by God, and not some man made fancy that has to be weighed by how many verses support it against how many contradict it.

Im glad my Jesus was crucified once and not daily since they keep him on the cross....

we do? last time i checked, Jesus was risen, taken from the cross into heaven. OH, you must be making a subtle reference to the crucifix... why dont you just have what it takes to come out and say what you mean? well, we dont 'keep' Jesus on the cross. the crucifix serves as a daily reminder of the sacrifice that Jesus made AND of the dire consequences our sins have. remember, your sins as well are part of the reason Christ died on the cross. so let me put my belief this way:

I'm glad Jesus was crucified once to save all mankind as the eternal sacrifice in which our refuge and salvation can be found.

and also im glad i have a Holy father in heaven to pray to not some sinner priest or Mary.

we dont pray to priests. there is no need, they are still alive. a simple phone call or conversation will do. as for praying to God??? we do that too. lets just consider the intercession we ask for from mary and the saints to be added resources that you choose to deny.

I have all respect for Mary but as the mother of Jesus NOT co- redeemer.

if you do not recognize the integral role of mary in the life of Jesus as His mother, then you do not have "all respect for mary." in fact, if you do not recognize this simple fact, you deny the scripture of Genesis. BAD BAPTIST, GO TO YOUR ROOM. as to co- redemtrix (NOT co-redeemer), the term applies to the fact that mary had to accept the will of God and as such played an important and VOLUNTARY role in the life of Christ, though she knew from scripture that this would be a sacrifice on her part as well. you cant deny this, its all right there in the bible you clearly dont read.

lastly: Im glad the one who saved me in 1987 and my bord is in heaven and not some false sinner based in Rome!

im not touching this one with a ten foot pole. I'll pray for the one who taught you to deny scripture, to disrespect mary, to call the sacrifice Christ himself made for mankind "cannabalism," and utter denial of Christs' own sacraments. may you be saved from these false ideas of man before it is too late for your soul.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 11, 2003.

Al,

Every Christian on earth believed exactly what your wife believes, for most of the history of Christianity. (By what authority has your little sect STOPPED believing these 2,000 year old Christain truths?)

Your wife's Church is UNITED in belief around the world and across 20 centuries. (Remember? Jesus said "that they all may be ONE"?) Your beliefs don't even match those of other Baptist churches, let alone the thousands of other manmade Protestant denominations. Why are you so concerned about Catholic beliefs? Methodist beliefs or Lutheran beliefs are just as different from your beliefs as Catholic beliefs are. You are enmeshed in a tradition of division, fragmentation, and doctrinal chaos - and from your little corner of the chaos you are going to call into question the beliefs of the Church Jesus Christ Himself founded? Truth cannot contradict truth, Al. That means that the thousands of conflicting denominations of Protestantism are necessarily riddled with untruth; and your little band of "believers" has no more authority behind their beliefs than any of the others. One Protestants achieve unity of belief, then perhaps we can compare their unified beliefs to Catholic unified beliefs. But in the meantime, your beliefs are plain guesswork, with no authoritative source. When did Jesus tell any of your pastors "he who hears you hears Me"? He did say that to my pastors. When did Christ say to the independent fundamental Baptist Church "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven"? He did say that to my Church. In fact, when did Christ give permission for your church to exist? He founded only ONE Church. He WARNED about the appearance of others.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 12, 2003.

Yikes! and my armor is at the cleaners!! Oh, hang on, I've may faith!

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Great work, Paul H. God will reward you, even if Al ignores you. JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.