I have yet to see a protestant/other sect return to the faith even if all their questions are answered. I have only seen people blindly bash the catholic church, and when the proper answer is given, they either change the subject or leave forever. This, is what I don't understand. If they say that their hearts are pure, why can't they return to the light once their answers are given? Why are they so tightly embracing false teachings and misconceptions, and why do they constantly bash the catholic church with the same things they always say, regardless of how many times the proper answer has been given? Why does this happen? It is as if they are "molded" into instruments against the catholic church by "someone" familiar. I see no other reason for them to continue their mission of destruction. It seems like if God himself came down and told them these facts, they would close their eyes and shout at him "they are all lies". This is where I am admiring the patience of the people in this forum. They do their duty of informing the facts to those who ask, regardless of their intention. Still those people are not after the truth, but their sole intention is to say that catholic church is evil, and that their knowledge is the true knowledge. They are blindfolded and carries on their "holy war" against the catholic church, and against God himself, in the name of God. It is just so sad.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003

Answers

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

This is where I am admiring the patience of the people in this forum. They do their duty of informing the facts to those who ask, regardless of their intention.

thanks abraham, althoughi deserve little admiration in comparison to those like john or Paul. it does sometimes take quite a huge chunk of patience to continually respond to people in hopes that their hearts are not completely hardened. as you see from my answers to people who say stupid things like "im catholic, but i still think that (insert doctrine of the church here) isnt right," i am actually quite a bit more harsh with false catholics than i am with protestants or anti catholics...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 03, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

Abraham, You are so correct in your analysis of the overall situation on this forum. Abraham, this is hard-to-swallow but there are many disciples of satan out here. Their mission is to 'divide and conquer' and to confuse and confound. As you said, they don't really want to know. You must also be aware that people have been blinded by their own sins. They cannot 'see' so-to-speak. There is a veil over their spiritual eyes. God is the only one who can lift that veil. If a person does not have enough graces, the veil will never be lifted. They must be prayed for. It is possible for one person or more to pray for another for conversion. Alot of graces are obtained for these people thru the prayers of others. If we pray often enough for them (usually years), it is possible to attain enough graces for that person or people to be converted, which in turn, allows God to lift that veil even though the person had been blinded by his own sins. A person who prays for another's conversion obtains many graces for himself as well. It is an act of Mercy and an act of Charity. A person who actually 'obtains' a conversion for someone goes to heaven (as long as that person (you) has no mortal sin on your soul).

-- (dutchee@sbcglobal.net), October 03, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

The Catholic Church is not evil, and could not be evil. It is the creation of the Lord. Protestants and Jews, and Muslims are lost sheep, unless they enter the fold.

The Catholic church, however, can be ruled , at times, by evil men. It is a testimony to the Lord that this church has lasted 2000 years, despite these conditions.

-- Raymond (yarou@locum.com), October 03, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

I haven't been molded into anything. I really wouldn't call a few postings on an obscure website the makings of a "holy war". Chill out. What fun is a debate if everybody agrees with you?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), October 04, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

Ken, regardless of whether or not your statements are valid, they are not germaine to the discussion. Abraham is complaining about something very different -- non-Catholics who cause problems at this forum or who at least fail to respond favorably to having their questions anwered truthfully. Let us please not get off on a war-related tangent. Thank you.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 04, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

I have to agree with John; the incessant attacks on the traditional Catholics and against the Tridentine Mass and all that's authentic Catholicism is very painful to read. It's good to see some people stand up against the terrors of modernism.

-- Kolbe (no@thank.you), October 04, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

Kolbe,

Unfortunately, you misinterpreted what John said. I can assure you that John is no friend of the traditional Catholic Church and the Tridantine Mass. Just ask him.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 04, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

blah blah blah....

God is the only one who can judge... VERY TRUE! Literally speaking in fact, God is the only one capable of judging in the context of our Church & the judgment. THEREFORE, the 'judgment' declaration/argument which seeks to quiet those who speak by imposing the judgment label upon them is ludicrous, a form of censorship and it is a lazy ministry at best as IT itself is a judgment and really does nothing to pursue truth and put truth out there for all to see and be exposed to...

YES, this is my opinion & my judgment on the matter; -- I would suggest that getting to specifics regarding potential and or objective sin and transgression e.g. with references to catechism specifics that go deeper than the judgment thing...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), October 04, 2003.

so what youre saying, anon, when you type these words...

That's why it's too hard to believe what you are saying, cause it's your words, not God.

is that youll harden your heart against simple truth until God himself comes and tells it to you? didnt Jesus tell us that at his second coming it would be too late and that many would say "Lord, Lord, here i am," and he will reply "begone for i do not know you."

save yourself now, ANON.

second of all, to those who posted that John is no friend of the latin mass... you couldnt be farther from the truth. John is a friend to all masses that are validly held. what john is opposed to is the violently schismatic sect that pledges that the tridentine is the only valid mass, and that anything else is a modernist takeover of the vatican... and to that sentiment all good and traditional catholics will be opposed.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 04, 2003.

Thanks, paul h.
What you said about me is true.
As I just mentioned on another thread, I was an altar boy for hundreds of older-rite Masses beginning in about 1961.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 05, 2003.

I wonder how many of these traditionalists remove their shoes before entering the presence of our Lord in his church. If you think one pope can say something true, and another pope cannot, then you are already a heretic. If you think the catholic church or its teachings over the years are faulty, then you are already beyond a heretic. On top of all this when you bash catholics who stay true to their faith, and the words of their lord and their church, then the fate of a non catholic would be better than that of yours, for with more knowledge comes more responsibility, and the more severe the punishment should be, naturally. Look what happened to the highest of all angels. Non christians can say they didn't have enough knowledge. Non catholics can say that it is mainly due to actions of their ancestors, and their teachers. If they cannot be called as excuses, the gravest of all would be the a catholic, rebelling against catholics, with knowledge of what they are doing. It is as close as it could get with what happened with the morning star. The brilliance of the devil cannot be underestimated. If he was able to create problems in heaven itself, he could easily create more problems among us.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), October 05, 2003.

Abraham T,

Throughout history of the Roman Catholic Church, there have been heretical popes. The current Pope is by far not the first one and probably will not be the last.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 05, 2003.

J.F. Gecik, So, John, what is your excuse for leaving the Tridentine Mass after all those years as an Alter Boy? What was the deciding factor for you leaving the Latin Mass in favor of the Novus Ordo Mass? This is a serious question -- or are you going to delete me aagain?

-- (tatrses@sbcglobal.net), October 05, 2003.

Response to Why are these catholic bashers doing this?

Jmj

Tarses,
You have repeatedly and unjustly attacked me on this, and at least one other, thread. Far worse than that, you have just attacked the papacy in general and the current pope in particular.

You deserve ZERO answers from me -- and you will get ZERO.
I wouldn't be surprised to see you banned from the forum very soon. By the way, are you this forum's trouble-making impersonator? There is a clue in your messages to me that you are indeed that mini-horror.

St. James, pray for us.
May God forgive you for all the damage you are doing.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), October 05, 2003.

What Catholic needs "an excuse" for following the teachings of the Church? It is so-called "traditionalists" who must offer excuses for their rejection of Church teaching and papal authority and their nostalgic clinging to the past. But those excuses ring hollow.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 05, 2003.

Dear J.F. Gecik & Paul,

Through your writings it is apparent that both of you a members of the vast neo-Catholic establishment posing as the "Mainstream" of Roman Catholicism, with a multiform corruption of the traditional faith in both practice and belief. Both of you are examples of the devil's momentary triumph in the post-Vatican II Church.

What is the "mini horror" that you are referring to. You can ban me from this forum, but more Church militants will follow. Be rest assured.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 06, 2003.

Well, since the Vicar of Jesus Christ and the overwhelming majority of the Church's hierarchy count themselves as members of the same "establishment", I guess I'll have to choose between following them or following you. However, I can't recall any official text mentioning that Jesus Christ gave YOU the power of binding and loosing, or the keys to the kingdom. I don't remember any historical record of God the Son telling YOU "he who hears you hears Me"; nor any record of Jesus saying "the Holy Spirit will guide tarses to all truth". Until He does so, it just seems wiser to ally myself with those to whom God DID make these promises. We already have 450 years of seeing what happens when individual men try to set themselves up as "authorities" in opposition to the divinely-ordained authority of the Church. That should be enough to steer any real Catholic far away from so-called "traditionalism".

Incidentally, Jesus also promised that the devil would NEVER triumph over His Church. He didn't say "except for occasional momentary triumphs" and He didn't say "except when self-appointed "traditionalists" say so. He said NEVER.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 06, 2003.

tarses,

neo-Catholic to use a term like that shows that you have separated yourself from the Catholic Church. May you find your way back before it's too late for you!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 06, 2003.

I have met so-called Traditionalists who simply refuse to accept the fact that there is a colossal difference between "liberal" catholics and those who try to obey the Pope (starting with actually reading what he writes!).

They almost seem to have a psychological block: everything MUST BE MONOLITHIC! So there was 4500 bishops at Vatican II, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM MUST BE LIBERAl! They can't accept any complexity, any Russian novel assortment of characters, any dispute with more than 2 sides!

It's like their whole world view is based at the comic book level rather than the Biblical one. Even in the Acts of the Apostles we see simultaneously the rise of divisions as well as healthy and valid diversity (Those 7 churches in Revelation were all DIFFERENT, but they all were united in the faith ...otherwise why would they all be judged as accountable to the faith???)

It's a pariochial mindset: they see the whole world and the whole Catholic Church as though it can easily be reduced to their own little experience in the USA or France! Talk about myopia! What's good for the USA they think is good for the world - and since their parish went to the dogs, they imagine EVERY parish must have gone to the dogs.

The third thing I've noticed is their proclivity to quote long subsections from ancient documents, without equal care to quote long sections from MODERN documents. They steep themselves in the minute detail of 15th century popes and fail to keep up with anything Paul VI wrote or JP II. (except where it can be taken out of context and twisted to their advantage).

In short, they are undereducated and underformed Catholics. I don't think they're evil (while they sure don't repay the compliment), or malicious. Most have been scandalized by heretics masquerading as "Catholics". Many have suffered personal tragedies of one or another sort making their current stance akin to that of someone who is drowning: a death grip on anything that will float.

And certainly the Tridentine Mass "floats" as does the Coptic, Armenian, Ambrosian, and other rite Masses! If that's your spirituality, then FINE. WONDERFUL. If you want to promote Latin and Gregorian Chant and thereby safeguard your family and faith...great!

It's just when you need to assault the Pope and others as a necessary condition to enjoy your spirituality...that the wheels come off.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 07, 2003.

Frank,

In the Webster Dictionary, the word "Neo" means: new, recent, in a new or different way. There is nothing "new" about the Tridentine Mass, the mass of all time, established by Our Lord Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago. However, the work of formulating the Novus Ordo Mass was entrusted to a Vatican commission called the "Consillium" during the Second Vatican Council. Among the participants were six Protestant ministers who represented the Anglicans, The World Council of Churches and the Lutherans. Of there role, Bishop (later Cardinal) William Baum stated: "They were not simply there as observers, but as consultants as well, and they particpated fully in the discussions on Catholic liturgical renewal. It wouldn't mean much if they just listened, but they contributed. (Detroit News, June 27, 1967. The end result was the promulgation of the New Mass in April 1969.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 07, 2003.

Tasres:
In the following you left out one other participant: ''-- However, the work of formulating the Novus Ordo Mass was entrusted to a Vatican commission called the "Consillium" during the Second Vatican Council. Among the participants were six Protestant ministers who represented the Anglicans, The World Council of Churches and the Lutherans. Of there role, Bishop (later Cardinal) William Baum stated: "They were not simply there as observers, but as consultants as well, and they particpated fully in the discussions on Catholic liturgical renewal. It wouldn't mean much if they just listened, but they contributed.''

The one participant you fail to acknowledge in their midst is the Holy Spirit. That makes you a borderline schismatic.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 07, 2003.

tarses,

Tridentine Mass, the mass of all time, established by Our Lord Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago.

LOL! Care to show me where Christ directed the production of this rite of mass? Didn't think so.

However, the work of formulating the Novus Ordo Mass was entrusted to a Vatican commission called the "Consillium" during the Second Vatican Council. Among the participants were six Protestant ministers who represented the Anglicans, The World Council of Churches and the Lutherans.

Good! Maybe you didn't know this but non-Catholics were invited to Vatican I as well. They didn't *attend*, but WERE invited. As far as universality goes, Vaticann II represented the whole church MUCH better than Vatican I did. I really can't understand you guys. What ever happened to "other sheep have I that are not of this fold"? You seem to want Christ to take an axe to them.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), October 07, 2003.

It seems like if God himself came down and told them these facts, they would close their eyes and shout at him "they are all lies".

The one True God did come "down", Jesus Christ, and he was crucified for the sins of mankind. Jesus told us that those who follow him would be persecuted so one has to expect it. To those who do God's will, Jesus promised eternal life and those who reject him will go to eternal Hell fire. All we can do is state the truth of Catholic tradition and if people reject it then they do so at their own peril.

SeeThePassion.com and sign the petition to get Mel Gibson's, The Passion, in our local theaters. Join our forum at:

http://thepassionmovie.isgreat.tv/thepassion/passion_intro.htm

-- Cindy (im_soul_catholic@yahoo.com), October 08, 2003.

the only evidence that there are other conscientious (sp) catholics out there is by what i read on the internet.

it would be nice if i had friends who were catholic and who would want to go to mass-- someone (or more than one) like myself- single, childless, mid-30's, who wants to celebrate the eucharist and occassionally in privacy discuss the faith.

i have NO catholic friends. spiritually, its very lonely.

i found this website by accident.

-- jason r. (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

Cindy:
A Catholic loyal to John Paul II and his preceding Popes, is not hearing the truth of Tradition from the ones you defend. We are in the living Tradition of the catholic faith. Tradition din't end at 2nd vatican Council; it kept on accumulationg with all the Holy Spirit's blessings.

You don't have to defend Tradition from me. I love Christ, His Church, my faith and the Church since vatican II and before that. You are breaking from tradition when you work against the Pope and bishops.

Tarses: You said: ''. . . but more Church militants will follow. Be rest assured.
-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 06, 2003. --

You aren't a Church militant. You're an ignorant and selfish Catholic. You're full of yourself, and don't even pray.

How do I know? I know because you've separated yourself from the Holy Spirit. You have no means of praying sincerely; you're a sounding brass and tinkling cymbal, (1 Cor 13:1).

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.

Jason R,
Stick with us! We'll keep you company as friends for years to come. And we have archives of thousands of discussion threads going back to January, 1998.
And if you would write to me via private e-mail and tell me where you live, I may be able to help you find some new Catholic friends in your area.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

John, it is refreshing to see your continued generosity in spreading the faith. Jason, John is right. And your finding this site was no accident, read and listen with your heart, and keep your prayer life fresh, God will embrace you through new Catholic friends here, and close by. Theresa

-- Theresa Huether (RodnTee4Jesus@sbcglobal.net), November 08, 2003.