The Progressive Magazine, by David Kupfer

Martin Sheen is a pacifist, a social and political activist who has not shied away from putting his body on the front lines, and a devout Roman Catholic. After rediscovering his faith twenty years ago, he began his activist work in earnest. "I learned I had to stand for something so I could stand to be me," he said as we talked. The star of The West Wing and a winner of a Golden Globe award for his role on that show, where he plays U.S. President Josiah Bartlet, Sheen has used his fame to call attention to many causes. Recently, he was one of the most visible celebrities against the U.S. war against Iraq. "I am not the President. Instead, I hold an even higher office, that of citizen of the United States," Sheen wrote in The Los Angeles Times on March 17. "War at this time and in this place is unwelcome, unwise, and simply wrong." Sheen says that NBC executives have told him they're "very uncomfortable" with his activism, although NBC denies this.

Sincere, modest, down to earth, Sheen is a reformed drug and alcohol abuser. The heart attack he endured during the filming of Apocalypse Now in the Philippines led him on a four-year spiritual journey that culminated in his return to Catholicism. He carries a rosary in his pocket ("Keeps me from cursing," he says) and is an almost daily communicant. Known worldwide by his stage name, this son of immigrant parents (his father was from Spain, his mother, Ireland) was baptized Ramón Estevez. His early years were spent in Dayton, Ohio. The Estevez family was poor and, from an early age, instilled Sheen with strong Catholic morals and working class values. By age nine, he was earning extra money as a golf caddie at a local country club, with hopes of becoming a pro. In 1958, at eighteen, he borrowed bus fare from his local parish priest and headed for New York to pursue his dream of becoming an actor. To avoid ethnic bias in hiring, he chose the first name Martin after a good friend, and Sheen after Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, who had a popular TV show in the 1950s. He remains proud of his Hispanic heritage and is quick to say that he never legally changed his name.

Sheen has created an impressive body of work, from his acclaimed 1964 Broadway performance in The Subject Was Roses, through extraordinary parts on television (he starred in the first TV movie about homosexuality, That Certain Summer, in 1972, and in The Execution of Private Slovik in 1974, and portrayed both Robert F. Kennedy in The Missiles of October and JFK in Kennedy). His films include Badlands, Catch-22, Apocalypse Now, Gandhi, and Wall Street. He's been married to his wife, Janet, for more than forty years and is father to four children, Charlie, Emilio, Renee, and Ramón, all thespians.

Over the past twenty years, Sheen has repeatedly protested political repression in Central America, promoted more liberal political asylum policies in the United States, publicized the atrocities of the Salvadoran death squads, supported the closing of the nuclear test sites, and marched with the Reverend Jesse Jackson to protest so-called immigration reform legislation in 1993. He was also an early demonstrator against abuses by the Israeli army in the Occupied Territories in the late 1980s.

Sheen was a featured speaker at an anti-war rally January 18 in San Francisco. His stirring oratory was met with thunderous applause. He delivered similar mini-sermons at subsequent peace gatherings in Los Angeles and in San Francisco prior to the bombing of Iraq. For this interview, I met up with him at the annual National Religious Education Congress in Anaheim following his talk before 900 Catholics in a workshop on spirituality and justice.

Question: Why are you so active in social justice and peace issues?

Martin Sheen: I do it because I can't seem to live with myself if I do not. I don't know any other way to be. It isn't something you can explain; it is just something that you do; it is something that you are.

Q: You've been arrested more than sixty times, in opposition to the School of the Americas in Georgia, apartheid, racism, homelessness, nuclear testing. Do you recall your first time?

Sheen: My first civil disobedience arrest for social justice was in 1986 for protesting the SDI [Reagan's Star Wars initiative]. It was on Forty-second Street at the McGraw-Hill Building in New York. That arrest was one of the happiest moments of my life and, equally, one of the scariest.

Q: What are your views on nonviolent civil disobedience?

Sheen: It is one of the only tools that is available to us where you can express a deeply personal, deeply moral opinion and be held accountable. You have to be prepared for the consequences. I honestly do not know if civil disobedience has any effect on the government. I can promise you it has a great effect on the person who chooses to do it.

Q: What did you mean when you said, "Your faith has to cost you something, otherwise you have to question its value"?

Sheen: Once you follow a path of nonviolence and social justice, it won't take you long before you come into conflict with the culture, with the society. You can't know what is at stake or how much it is going to cost you until you get in the game. That's the only way, and the level of cost is equal to the level of involvement.

Q: What do you think of the way certain conservative media outlets have been handling those critical of war?Sheen: I have taken a big hit for being a spokesperson for the Virtual March on Washington, the MoveOn [www.moveon.org] effort. They [rightwingers] went after the show [The West Wing]. A lot of these rightwing people have been after NBC to kick me off it; that was their whole thrust, to get rid of me. When you rile people up, and they get ugly, it's not a fair fight anymore. The anti-antiwar activists recently flooded the Burbank office and shut down the NBC switchboard.

Q: When has it become criminal to express yourself in this country?

Sheen: Right now.

Q: What's your reaction to your critics in the media?

Sheen: Their opinions are very lucrative to them; mine are very expensive to me and my family. That is the difference. That is why I can't get involved in this debate. Because we are talking about two different things.

Q: You're coming from a more humanistic perspective?

Sheen: Exactly, and a spiritual perspective. And they get paid for their opinions, and mine cost me.

Q: But you don't take it personally, do you?

Sheen: I don't, only because I don't know the people who are attacking me. But you cannot not be affected by it and remain human. And also I am not in this alone; I have a family, and they are subject to a lot of scrutiny at times. It is not pleasant at all. You just have to maintain your faith, and your sense of humor. Above all, not take yourself so seriously, and realize that you're not in there alone. God has not abandoned us. I don't know what other force to appeal to other than almighty God, I really don't.

Q: You support our military?

Sheen: I have been accused of being a traitor, and I have been accused of not supporting the military. Nothing could be further from the truth. The leaders are the ones who make the decisions. The soldiers do not have the choice. I support the soldiers as human beings. This Administration has led us into an area without vision. Bush has no clear understanding of what is being asked of the citizens, and the military is under his direction.

Q: Assess the Bush Administration.

Sheen: In order to understand this Administration it is helpful to have a background in [Alcoholics Anonymous's] Twelve Step, because it is real clear to those of us who understand the Twelve Step program that these are very dysfunctional times. We live in a very dysfunctional society, and this is a very, very dysfunctional Administration. The proven way for this Administration to keep power is to keep us all in fear. As long as we are afraid of the unknown and afraid of each other, he, or anyone like him, can rule. It's like they will take responsibility for protecting us. It's when we take back the responsibility for protecting ourselves that they get scared. I am amazed by the level of arrogance within the Administration.

Q: When we met twenty years ago, you told me: "Murder is being conducted in our name around the world and we're paying the price here at home." What has that price been?

Sheen: This supposed idyllic society we have is the most confused, warped, addicted society in the history of the world. We are addicted to power, we're addicted to our own image of ourselves, to violence, divorce, abortion, and sex. Any whim of the human character is deeded in us 100-fold. We're number one in child abuse, pornography, divorce, all of these categories; that's how we get paid back. You can't project something on someone else that is damaging that person and not become that yourself, it seems to me.

Q: What are your views on abortion?

Sheen: I cannot make a choice for a women, particularly a black or brown or poor pregnant woman. I would not make a judgment in the case. As a father and a grandfather, I have had experience with children who don't always come when they are planned, and I have experienced the great joy of God's presence in my children, so I'm inclined to be against abortion of any life. But I am equally against the death penalty or war-- anywhere people are sacrificed for some end justifying a means. I don't think abortion is a good idea. I personally am opposed to abortion, but I will not judge anybody else's right in that regard because I am not a woman and I could never face the actual reality of it.

Q: What is a radical Catholic, as you've called yourself?

Sheen: That is someone who follows the teachings of the nonviolent Jesus and takes the gospel personally, and then pays the price. I fall into that category.

Q: Which politicians do you admire?

Sheen: I don't really have a great deal of confidence in politics or politicians, but there are certain elected officials that I ADMIRE VERY MUCH, SUCH AS DENNIS KUCINICH FROM OHIO, BARBARA LEE, CONGRESSWOMAN FROM OAKLAND, HOWARD DEAN, WHO I'M SUPPORTING FOR PRESIDENT.

Q: Who have been your spiritual influences?

Sheen: Terrence Malick (director of the film Badlands) is a deeply spiritual, bright, articulate man who had a profound influence on me at a critical time. Twenty years ago, I left India and went to Paris to do a film which I was not wild to be doing because I was not feeling focused at the time. I had just experienced India for the first time, and it had a very profound impact on me. I went to Paris and ran into Terry, who'd been living there for a couple of years, and we got reacquainted and got very close, and he became a mentor in a lot of ways for me. He was able to see where I needed to focus and was able to guide me to a little clearer place. He would give me material, books to read. Finally, the last book he gave me was The Brothers Karamazov, and that book had a very profound effect on my spiritual life, and that was like the final door that I had to go through. I finished reading that, and it was May Day, and I went into what turned out to be the only English-speaking Catholic church in all of France. I had not gone to church in years. I came across an Irish priest. I told him I'd stayed away from the faith for a long time, and I'd like to make a confession. He said you come to see me Saturday afternoon at the appointed hour, and I did. That was for me the journey home. Terrence was key to my awakening. Also, many of my beliefs were influenced by Dan and Phil Berrigan and the Jesuit community they helped run in New York.

Q: How did being a golf caddie affect you as a boy?

Sheen: Those years on the golf course as a caddie, boy, those people were something. They were vulgar, some were alcoholics, racist, they were very difficult people to deal with. A lot of them didn't have a sense of humor. They didn't know your name. It was always "caddie." This was before golf carts were used. If they needed to play, they were either going to hire a caddie or pull one of those rolling carts themselves. They weren't about to carry them when they could get you to carry them for a few dollars. Some of them were so cheap, selfish, and stingy. They taught me so much [laughs]. I am so grateful to those people. Because the bottom line was, for me, I thought, don't let me become that! It was one of those valuable lessons about what not to be, what not to do, how not to do something. They were ignorant, arrogant people, and they thought they were very charming and thought they had the world by the tail, with all the money and power they had.

Q: How has the game of golf helped you to develop your life philosophy?

Sheen: Anybody who plays golf will tell you that you play against yourself. I am a very conscientious golfer. I count every stroke. I learned to play that way. That is the only way I can play. It taught me to be honest. There is no greater virtue than honesty. The game is basically about yourself. Because you can cheat at golf, but you are only cheating you, so what is the point? If you are gambling and you cheat to make money then you are a thief and a liar, so it is exponential. Golf is fundamentally about being honest. I see people hit eight shots and tell me they shot five. I never say a word. It is a reminder to me of what is at stake.

Q: What was it like to work with the Living Theater in New York?

Sheen: It had a very profound effect on me. I started with them when I was nineteen and spent two-and-a-half years with them. Through them, I was introduced to Women's Strike for Peace, the ban the bomb movement. It was an avant-garde theater, filled with very liberal, progressive, intelligent, passionate, heroic people. Julian Beck was one of my mentors and heroes. He introduced me to the Catholic Workers' movement.

Q: Your favorite roles?

Sheen: Badlands and Apocalypse.

Q: Is The West Wing a liberal fantasy show?

Sheen: The key word about The West Wing is show. It is not a reality show. It has nothing to do with reality. We have a phrase we use sometimes: "Present issues of great importance," and hope this will cause some measure of public debate, because the issues are so important. But we don't advocate it, we can't be sure it is going to happen, and most of the time we don't even know what effect the show is going to have, if any. But sometimes we ring a bell, and you can't unring a bell. Sometimes we can bring an issue to the forefront and just mention it, and by just mentioning it, whether it is global warming or women's rights, or the environment, we bring attention to it. What we try to say is that it doesn't matter if you are a Republican or a Democrat or conservative or independent. You are equally responsible for your place in the culture, and you must make a contribution, and you must accept responsibility for what goes down on your watch. You have no excuse if you are a conservative not to be concerned about the environment. You are equally responsible. Future generations are not going to ask us what political party were you in. They are going to ask what did you do about it, when you knew the glaciers were melting. On the show, we are not trying to get people to eat their vegetables; we are not trying to get people to become Democrats. We are basically trying to encourage people to get involved with public life so that politics isn't left to the wealthy and privileged.

Q: Did you ever consider running for President?

Sheen: The Green Party asked me to consider running with Ralph Nader in 1996, but I nipped that idea in the bud. I said I was flattered but I was not into politics and that I was not interested.

Q: Even after all your training on The West Wing?

Sheen: I am not a politician or a public servant. I am still a journeyman actor and a peace and justice activist. I'm a pilgrim trying to win my freedom and serve as best I can in the time I have, with this gift I've been given.

Q: Are you worried that this nation might be going down the tubes in a hurry?

Sheen: It is slip-sliding away. The last couple of years, we've witnessed the slow unraveling of a lot of very good legislation that was put into place by a lot of hard activism.

Q: What is your greatest hope for our species?

Sheen: That we survive, and come to know ourselves, and win our freedom.

Q: And your greatest fear?

Sheen: That we are not going to make it.

Q: Do you despair, or do you have hope?

Sheen: No, no, I never despair, because George Bush is not running the universe. He may be running the United States, he may be running the military, he may be running even the world, but he is not running the universe, he is not running the human heart. A higher power is yet to be heard in this regard, and I'm not so sure that we haven't already heard, we just haven't been listening. I still believe in the nonviolent Jesus and the basic human goodness present in all of us.

If all of the issues that I have worked on were depending on some measure of success, it would be a total failure. I don't anticipate success. We're not asked to be successful, we are only asked to be faithful. I couldn't even tell you what success is.

(David Kupfer is a writer whose work has appeared in The Progressive, Whole Earth, Adbusters, and Earth Island Journal. He lives on an organic farm in Northern California.)

Gail

P.S. I'm sorry, but I just don't get this. How can this guy support Howard Dean for President, or utter the names of these other radical pro-choicers? OH P-LEASE, MR. SHEEN, GIVE ME A BREAK!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 11, 2003

Answers

Right on Gail; The guy is a phoney.

-- George (prolife@legislation.com), October 11, 2003.

Pro-life is not the only thing that we must look for in a candidate. The Church says that we must also look at other things. Look at the big picture. Republicans only care about the rich, pass tax cuts that hurt the poor, spend more money on the military and cut programs that help the working person. Just because a candidate is pro-life doesn't mean that he is the best for the country. Bush is pro-death penalty. Bush also expanded abortion rights in Third World Countries. Maybe Martin Sheen is just being an informed voter and is voting for who is going to help the most people. Don't be so narrow minded.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 11, 2003.

Scott; Both political parties are no bargain. No matter who wins, we end up paying more taxes. I'm no fan of Bush or Clinton. In fact Clinton, bad as he was, still is beginning to look better than Bush.

-- George (prolife@legislation.com), October 12, 2003.

"I personally am opposed to abortion, but I will not judge anybody else's right in that regard"

Utter phooey. C'mon, Martin, grow a spine! Replace that infernal word with any other evil act: "murder," "suicide," "theft," "rape," "child abuse," "cheating taxes," "terrorism," "domestic violence." Can't you see how ridiculous and self-serving your smarmish rhetoric is?

-- bffe00 (skoobouy@hotmail.com), October 12, 2003.

Here's the rub, Scott. The guy is pro-actively against the war in Iraq. And why? Because innocent people will die. Good reason TO BE SURE. He's willing to go "out-front" and protest along with the rest of the Hollywood die-hards. Why isn't this so-called "devout-Rosary- praying-radical-Catholic" willing to go to the front-lines for innocent BABIES? Can you imagine the force he could wield standing up for those innocent children? But no, he's got more important things to do; that is, as long as it's politically correct!!

Go hug a tree Martin!

Gail

P.S. Yes, Scott, I'm narrowly convinced that abortion KILLS! I am narrowly convinced that voting for PRO-DEATH candidates ENABLES, AIDS AND ABETS the death of the MOST HELPLESS AMONG US! AND I AM NARROWLY convinced that when we STAND BEFORE CHRIST ON JUDGMENT DAY we will RENDER AN ACCOUNT! Unfortunately, in this country, the only ones willing to stand up for them is one party. I WOULD LOVE TO VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT, but I cannot find one whose hypocrisy isn't NAUSEATING! YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, they're all for the working class poor, just as long as they're not in the womb! BAH HUMBUG!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 12, 2003.

Gail, I'm narrowly convinced that the Death-Penalty KILLS! I am narrowly convinced that voting for "PRO-LIFE" candidates ENABLES, ABORTIONS and CONTRACEPTIVES to fight AIDS among the MOST HELPLESS AMONG US! AND I AM NARROWLY convinced that when we STAND BEFORE CHRIST ON JUDGMENT DAY we will RENDER AN ACCOUNT! Unfortunately, in this country, the only ones willing to stand up for them is neither. I WOULD LOVE TO VOTE FOR A REPUBLICAN, but I cannot find one whose hypocrisy isn't NAUSEATING! TAX CREDITS FOR THE RICH. SCREW THE POOR. STOP WELFARE. THE POOR ARE LAZY. SEND MORE MONEY TO THE MILITARY. PRODUCE MORE NUCLEAR WEAPONS. DESTROY THE EARTH. DESTROY INNOCENT LIVES BY DROPPING BOMBS ON THEM. EXPAND ABORTION RIGHTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because a candidate is pro-death doesn't mean that he is the worst candidate. We need to vote for the lesser of two evils. That would be the Democrats. They at least will put more people on Health Care. Which might mean less abortions. Yes it pains me to vote for a Dem because I don't want more abortions. BUT IT PAINS ME MORE TO VOTE REPUBLICAN BECAUSE THEY CAUSE MORE PEOPLE TO BECOME POOR AND SO ABORTION BECOMES THEIR ONLY OPTION, SINCE THEY CAN NO LONGER AFFORD TO FEED ANOTHER MOUTH!!

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 12, 2003.

Scott: Vote whichever way you please. But please don't pontificate here. Does ''brainwash'' mean anything to you? All your touchy-feely idealism can't carry a real cross. It won't comfort a single human being. It's founded on smear and propaganda. When Alan Bloom wrote about the Closing of the American Mind, he wrote about young people in your social set. Read his book. Come back when you've matured spiritually and politically. Ciao!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 12, 2003.

Scott says: "TAX CREDITS FOR THE RICH. SCREW THE POOR. STOP WELFARE." I have received two huge tax refunds since Bush took office, as has EVERY PARENT in the U.S. No Scott, we don't need to stop welfare, but people need to get up off of their lazy butts and get a job like the rest of us poor slobs.

Scott says: "Just because a candidate is pro-death doesn't mean that he is the worst candidate. We need to vote for the lesser of two evils." DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF??? How can anything be more evil than slaughtering innocent babies? Name me one thing that is worse, more diabolical, more inherently evil. Just one!!

Then Scott says: "That would be the Democrats. They at least will put more people on Health Care. Which might mean less abortions." NEWS FLASH SCOTT -- At least twice in the last 10 years, Republicans have tried to bring about tort reform in this country that would severely LIMIT the frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits in this country which are crippling the health care industry and causing costs to triple. BUT guess what? the Dem's squash every bill that passes their way. Why? They are lobbyists for the American Bar Association. Furthermore, abortions will skyrocket if Uncle Sam foots the bill and you know it.

Then Scott says: "Yes it pains me to vote for a Dem because I don't want more abortions." No, Scott, it does not pain you. For some reason the living-but-unborn are completely irrelevant to you. You have succumbed to liberal propaganda my friend.

Gail

P.S. Do you know that if some reckless, violent teenager was caught killing puppies as they were being born, he would be charged with a felony? Funny, isn't it, that babies are not even considered as valuable as an unborn puppy!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 13, 2003.

Thanks, Gail;
Even if you were a thinking Democrat, I could still love you. Your soul is unaffected by any self- interest, and God watches out for you in this confusion. If only Scott & some others like him will pause and listen to a free woman; a free Catholic woman; a free, brave Catholic woman -- when she says to them: ''Act like a man! Be a man; God calls men, not cry-babies.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 13, 2003.

Gail,

It does pain me to vote for a democrat. I am active in the pro-life movement.

Questions to ask before voting for a candidate.

1. How will we protect the weakest in our midst—innocent, unborn children?

2. How will we overcome the scandal of a quarter of our preschoolers living in poverty in the richest nation on earth?

3. How will we address the tragedy of 35,000 children dying every day of the consequences of hunger, debt, and lack of development around the world?

4. How can our nation help parents raise their children with respect for life, sound moral values, a sense of hope, and an ethic of stewardship and responsibility?

5. How can society better support families in their moral roles and responsibilities, offering them real choices and financial resources to obtain quality education and decent housing?

6. How will we address the growing number of families and individuals without affordable and accessible health care? How can health care protect and enhance human life and dignity?

7. How will our society best combat continuing prejudice, bias, and discrimination, overcome hostility toward immigrants and refugees, and heal the wounds of racism, religious bigotry, and other forms of discrimination?

8. How will our nation pursue the values of justice and peace in a world where injustice is common, destitution is widespread, and peace is too often overwhelmed by warfare and violence?

9. What are the responsibilities and limitations of families, voluntary organizations, markets, and government? How can these elements of society work together to overcome poverty, pursue the common good, care for creation, and overcome injustice?

10. How will our nation resist what Pope John Paul II calls a growing "culture of death"? Why does it seem that our nation is turning to violence to solve some of its most difficult problems—to abortion to deal with difficult pregnancies, to the death penalty to combat crime, to euthanasia and assisted suicide to deal with the burdens of age and illness?

This was taken from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/faithfulcitizenship/citizenship.htm

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 13, 2003.

The one thing I don't like about American politics is that there really is no one to vote for. I like bits and pieces of both candidates. I like some issues that the Dems have and I like one that the Reps have. What we need is a moderate candidate. One that is truely pro-life. Which means no abortions and no death penalty. We need Universal Health Care. We need Universal Education. We need a government that can give peace a chance. We need to support the UN.

The US has a lot of problems. Problems that one party cannot solve.

Oh and I am not really a Democrat. I don't really identify with either party. Right now I am closer to the Democrats because I agree with their policies more. If the Republicans put up a candidate that could change the country for the better than I would support him or her.

There is a reason that Catholics are swing voters. It is because no candidate really fits into what we want.

I can only pray that God will send the US a president with true moral conviction. But knowing the US that man or woman won't get elected.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 13, 2003.

Scott:
''[A party?] Which means no abortions and no death penalty. We need Universal Health Care. We need Universal Education. We need a government that can give peace a chance. We need to support the UN (! ! !) The US has a lot of problems.

PROBLEMS / --We need communism? Scott asks for communism; government involvement or, welfare from the womb to the tomb? We vote for that, Scott? Because the U.S. isn't your best place to live, to be free? (Oh!) Is that why thousands of people every week risk their lives to sneak into this country? Because we have problems? They want to cash in on our problems?

Is your house paid for by the UN? Your groceries? Has the UN ever stopped a war? A depression? Maybe an argument between two puppies? What planet are you from, Scott?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 14, 2003.

Eugene, I think that you are a fool and don't know what to think. You accuse me of being a communist because you don't know what a communist is. Do not be a stupid American and think that socialism and communism are the same things. Even the pope thinks that some socialistic ideas are good. Now he is not a true socialist. Also, socialism is an economic idea. Communism is a political idea. It would be like saying that capitalism and democracy are interchangeable.

Tell me, oh wise Eugene, is Germany a communist government? If not than why do they have universal education and health care? They have these things because they are a Social-Democracy. And what do you think welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are? They are socialistic programs. OH NO Eugene, socialism has entered US politics.

By party I meant a political party in the US that is somewhere between the two extremes of the Democrats and the Republicans. This of course would NOT be the Communist party, since they are more left than the Democrats.

You ask why the UN has never stopped a war, well duh Eugene, it's because the US will go to war with or without UN support. Iraq is an example of this. When was the last time the US listened to anything that any other government had to say? France told us not to go to Vietnam. Did we listen? NO!!! People told us not to go to war with Iraq. Did we listen? NO!!! And because of that people are dieing everyday and the region is not any more stable than it was before.

If you do not think the US has problems than you are living in a dream world. If I remember correctly the US has the highest rate of violent crimes out of any country in the world. But I guess that that is not a serious problem. As far as I know the US still suffers from racism. Can you name a developed country that needs affirmative action?

We the people of the United States are so free that we do not even care. We are so free that only around one-third of the voters vote. And that is just registered voters. I am glad I am free. You see the US has had freedom since the day it was born over 200 years ago. We have never been controlled by another country. Maybe if we had been taken over we would understand what the rest of the world understands. I have never had to struggle to be able to vote. But I know people that still are not allowed to vote.

The US is the richest most powerful nation in the world. It is also the developed nation with the worst education system as compared to all other developed countries. Did you know in Sweden by the time the children are 12 they are fluent in 6 languages. You might be luck to find an American that knows 2.

What is so great about the US? It has a great economy and a great military. It also has one of the best health care systems in the world if you can afford insurance to pay for it. Besides that we are not really any better than any other developed country. At least the other developed countries know that what they do effects more than their own country. Hence why the EU as so much power. The EU’s sole purpose is for the betterment of ALL of Europe. The US is only interested in things that affect the US directly.

Eugene, I am not talking about government involvement in every aspect of my life. Eugene do not be such an idiot. You don't know what politics is. You don't really know how to help people. You criticize my views because you don't have the intelligence to help people yourself.

People flock to the US because they THINK the US will give them a better life. What many of them end up getting is slavery. Working for little or no pay. Working long hours, with no benefits. OH and notice where immigrants come from. Notice that hardly any come from Europe. I wonder why?

Maybe the US should start helping the developing nations get on their feet by teaching them how to grow food and produce things on their own. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life. This does not mean just giving them money.

Oh, and Eugene, if you are going to criticize me then you better learn how to write a sentence.

What planet am I from? I am from a planet that actually studies history. Unlike the one you are from.

Cross the pond Eugene. You might actually learn something.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), October 14, 2003.

Scott,
I gather then, you are in Europe somewhere? Across the pond? It figures. That's why your group-think is showing so badly. I'm getting a politics lesson from abroad? Poor apple knocker that I am;

Socialism is your cup of tea? It's what communists sold to the lumpenproletariat, Scott. ''Soviet ''Socialist'' Republics? Didn't you learn that in school?

If socialists were able to keep the citizen happy from cradle to grave, why did he have to be shot in the back trying to escape East Berlin? Why was there a wall around them? Where is the greatness of those super states; over with Kofi Anan? You call me idiot. Fine; we Americans don't need approval from whiners. ''Eugene do not be such an idiot. You don't know what politics is. You don't really know how to help people. You criticize my views because you don't have the intelligence to help people yourself.''

Oh, the shame! A boy lets him have it; that's what he gets for responding from a position of long experience.

I'm ready now, Scott; for your lesson on China and their great People's Republic. Lay it on me, Kid. We might be slow in this country. But China is twenty centuries older and had fire crackers in 400 B.C. They take the time to teach their children. You love to teach. Whyncha go there? You'll love that civilization. Nobody's an idiot there. You'll fit in just fine, I know you probably want to learn Tai Chi, and the Mandarin language. Better education never was than under Chinese socialism. They're going to the moon!

Go on, lap up a language at the socialist communal table. It's FREE!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 14, 2003.

Scott,

You talk about the Republican party giving tax breaks to the rich that only hurt the poor. Explain to me how that works. Historically, when the "rich" receive tax breaks, the economy expands and jobs are created. Do you really think the economy is sagging right now because of Bush's Republican leadership or do you think the economy is doing remarkably well in spite of the fact that Democratic leadership of California, the third largest economy of the world, has run it into the ground, creating massive debt and sending corporations running for the border?

And save the "evil US warmonger" speech. It's getting so old. No, we don't have to have UN approval to go to war. The UN hasn't approved a war yet. The UN is hardly the confederation of impartial opinions as you would have one believe. The UN is made up of nations out to express their own self-interest. The US has done the same thing.

An evil was perpetrated upon us. We have the right to defend ourselves from people who want to kill us. Your thinking is too traditional and linear. The enemies we are fighting are not the traditional government-sponsored armies of years past. They are the clandestine, government-funded terrorist operations of the future. These are people who do not want diplomatic relations with us. They only want us dead. All of us. And they'll commit suicide if asked to do so in order to take out as many Americans as they can at once.

Exactly how do you propose to carry on rational diplomatic relations with such irrational ideologues?

"People" are not dying every day, as you propose. Our soldiers are being fired upon and getting injured and dying to liberate an area that's been under terrorist control since Hussein came to power. Suni Muslim and Taliban extremists are dying in efforts to kill innocent human beings. Our soldiers are doing what they can to eliminate the threat to the "people" of the region by protecting them from terror, providing medical relief and bringing food into the country. We're helping them stabilize their own country and establishing a democratic form of government in which all have a say.

Why do you hate the US so much? You scoff at affirmative action, but every time someone tries to get rid of it, somebody sues. You gripe about violent crime, but I don't see you volunteering any more of your hard-earned money to build a prison next to your neighborhood to ensure enough prison cells are on hand so violent offenders don't get early parole. You lament the state of education in the US, but don't point the finger at the liberal-left teachers' union (NEA) or the Democrat school superintendents who instituted educational policies nationwide which are self-esteem based rather than pass-fail based. Of course kids aren't learning the same things they are in other countries. Did you know that in Sweden, the same kids that are speaking 6 languages are also subject to corporal punishment by their teachers? Oh, but I bet that hurts little Sven's self-esteem, and here, his mother would sue, so that will never happen here!

You gripe about the high expense of health care, but don't point the finger at litigious patients who sue for malpractice at the drop of a dime. Just try to find a gynecologist in the state of Nevada and I think you'll understand what I mean.

Quick lesson in physics, Scott. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Because Nevada residents want to sue over every little bruise their poor baby gets during birth (lots of kids get bruised from passing through the birth canal), there are not a lot of obstetricians in the state who practice anymore. Malpractice insurance for OB/GYNs in the state of Nevada is 5 times the national average. Are the OB/GYNs who live in Nevada incompetent? The statistics say no. They don't have any more legitimate complaints of negligence than any other state (per capita: population of OB/GYNs). But they do have a phenomenal number of lawsuits, most of which never see the inside of a courtroom. Much cheaper to settle when you're looking at that kind of volume.

As a result of so many lawsuits, there's nary a baby doctor to be found in Nevada. There's your action and reaction.

You seem to want the US to behave like European states but don't seem to want the people of the US to have to behave like Europeans. Do you think the British sue over hot coffee?

People DO immigrate to the US looking for the American Dream...and the majority find it, contrary to what you would have us believe. According to the INS, Europeans do, indeed, comprise the largest amount of American immigrants, followed by Asians, THEN Mexicans. I wonder why Europeans would find the US so attractive to immigrate to? Could it have something to do with the fact that our economy is based on free enterprise and you can select your own medical care from a list of private physicians rather than have to participate in socialized medicine? Could that be why so many Canadians immigrate here (the 4th largest group of immigrants)?

The only population of immigrants, it would seem, that come here willing to settle for sub-standard wages and housing would be those of the ILLEGAL variety. Are you suggesting that I am not already doing enough for these people who have BROKEN THE LAW by allowing my property taxes to be used to provide them with free educations and medical care through state-sponsored insurance (Medicaid)? (Again, see California for action-reaction. The state is nearly bankrupt from extending ILLEGAL immigrants the same priveliges as US citizens without ever collecting one DIME of tax money from that very same population of people.)

Furthermore, the US HAS been trying to teach developing cultures new agricultural technologies in addition to providing financial and other forms of aid. But you know what the problem is here, Scott? The leaders of these developing nations don't want our help! We can send all the aid in the world, but until foreign leaders are willing to accept our help, there is very little we can do for the third- world farmer. African nations are notorious for taking agricultural supplies, technology and equipment from aid organizations and selling them on the black market to finance new palaces or to provide money to line the pockets of tribal leaders.

So stop the sanctimonious anti-American hogwash and pick up a book from time to time. Take the time to find out what IS going on in the world before you spout off about how the evil American government is forcing its will on the world.

Ann

-- Ann (arobbins@catholic.org), October 14, 2003.

Eugene and Ann, fabulous articles.

Scott, you said "It does pain me to vote for a democrat. I am active in the pro-life movement." So, let me get this straight, you are active in the pro-life movement, but then you vote for people who will defeat any measures you try to put in place to protect the unborn. Does that make sense to you? It's sorta like giving someone a gun so they can shoot you.

Then you go on to list all of these "practical reasons" why we should allow abortion to continue, population control, etc. You know, Hitler was able to convince the whole world that it would be better off without the Jewish race using the same kind of propaganda.

Eugene was right, you have been thoroughly and completely "propagandized", i.e., BRAINWASHED.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 14, 2003.

I guess that I have a few socialistic tendencies that people don't like here. And that's fine. But I don't really think of myself as a socialist, a democrate or a republican.

The biggest difference between socialism and communism is that in communism the state controls everything. It's kind of like a republic except there is only one party that represents the people. This is all in practice though. Socialism, in practice, is a system that tries to benefit everyone. It might work, it might not. Maybe I just like the idea of everyone being equal. But socialism in practice still allows for private property and competition. But there are some set standards.

United Soviet Socialist Republics. They aren't very socialist though. It's kind of like the US calling itself a Democracy. But really it is a Republic. I don't think that there is one true democracy in the world. And just so you don't argue this a Republic is where the people elect others to represent them. While in a Democracy the people vote in representation of themselves.

On immigration. The immigrants themselves don't really do anything spectacular when they get here. There children are the ones that take all the glory. I also think that California is just a little more complicated than paying health care for illegals. And your immigration statistics are also wrong. 14.9% come from Eurpe. Only 4.9% from Western Europe. Asia send 30.8%. Canada 2.1%. Mexico 25.4%. These numbers are from the INS in 1998. Some much for the most immigrants coming from Modern European Countries and Canada.

That is interesting info about Nevada. I didn't know that. That's is crazy.

What gives us the right to say who's government is racional and not. Yes the Taliban didn't have the greatest human rights record but for the Muslims that are in their "Dark Ages," it made perfect sence to them. We did pretty much the same thing during our "Dark Ages." Islam is a religion that is trying to rediffine itself in this modern era. And like all religions that redefining can be turbulent. The only difference is that when Catholicism and Judaism underwent their redefinition, there were a million cameras all over the place. Oh and dropping bombs on people isn't going to make them like you any more. It's kind of like when you get into a fight and all you do is scream at each other. Does anything really get done? But everything gets done when you two calmly talk to each other. Just give it time. I am sure that it will eventually work out. And if you are really interested in this subject, read something by Bernard Lewis.

And actually Eugene I will be going to China. To teach English no less. Oh and I do take Tai Chi Chuan.

I also have a question. Once the Republicans get rid of abortion, what are they going to do then? Pass more tax cuts a squander a Trillion Dollor surplus?

So maybe what the US needs is not a change in politics but a change in "culture." The US needs to become less sue happy. The US needs to look out for the common good of all people. What the US needs is a cultural revolution. And that will change the politics. We really aren't very different. I know that the Dems are pro-choice. But I am sure there are some that are pro-life. Just like some republicans (Rudy Guliani (sp)) are pro-choice. The reason that you don't like me is because I don't let one issue define who I vote for. And if Bush is so pro-life why hasn't he said a word about it since January? Why has it taken 3 years to get a partial-birth abortion ban to pass the House? Whatever happened to no child left behind? Why has Bush backed out on the Kyoto treaty and the Non- Proliferation Treaty? Why does Bush want to produce new nuclear weapons? Why does Bush want to drill in a national wildlife preserve? Why not just put more effort towards alternative fuels? Why does Bush talk tough with Afghanistan and Iraq but is willing to bide his time with North Korea?

But of course we also have to ask some things about Democrats. Why when Clinton was in office didn't education improve? Why are their still schools in the south that are using 40 year old text books? Why did car companies produce more gas guzzling cars? Why didn't he get rid of the death penalty? Why didn't he get Bin Laden when he had the chance? Why was he against welfare reform?

I still haven't decided who to vote for. I am still compiling information on the candidates.

Oh and by the way, Eugene, I am from Indiana. I was born in Indiana and have lived in Indiana my entire life. I have been outside the country once and the was to Canada for WYD. And the crossing the pond thing. I don't know where I picked that up.

-- Scott (whatever@whatever.com), October 14, 2003.

Sir:This is a Catholic religion board. We don't truly want your socio-political treatises or definitions of diverse parties, or carping about Bush. Just one of your mealy- mouth questions:

''Why does Bush talk tough with Afghanistan and Iraq but is willing to bide his time with North Korea?''

For one thing, North Korea to date has yet to attack the center of New York City and our Pentagon with hijacked airliners and kill up to 3,000 innocent Americans at breakfast time. --Just a slight disparity with Middle East Islamic Jihad. (You will surely quibble.)

Secondly, our President doesn't ''talk tough'' You talk tough (Why, who knows?); Bush acts. He LEADS, and not like France & Germany lead. Not as a liberal like YOU would lead. Not as Neville Chamberlain ''led'', but as Winston Churchill led.

Go back to your history books, Lad. Before your friends in gov't revise them all. Now; we discuss the faith, or we get outta here.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 15, 2003.

Scott said, "So maybe what the US needs is not a change in politics but a change in "culture."

Yes, both!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), October 15, 2003.

I'd like to add my perspective to all this, as a pro-life, libertarian, Catholic Republican. As a Christian I am of course concerned with the poor. This is one of the reasons I give ten percent of my income to the Church. However, I don't believe that forced government expropriation of my resources, for redistribution through a government beuraucracy, is the way to take care of them. Jesus wanted us to take care of the poor through our voluntary charity, and we could do so better if the government was not siphoning off so much of our resources for an inefficient welfare system.

I can understand somebody disagreeing with me about all that, but I ask that you not automaticly assume that my views are non-Catholic.

-- samuelv (listed3@hotmail.com), October 16, 2003.

Thanks for posting this ver compelling interview. Like many American liberals, I look forward to every episode of The West Wing. it gives me a chance to imagine what it might have been like if America could have elected the last president instead appointing the most well connected drunk.

-- FreeWine (webmaster@nuyakacreek.com), November 13, 2003.

Sir, I think that you have been dipping into yourself ("Free Wine") all your life long, if you are so "smashed" as to be able to make such a statement.
Yeah, that's all we needed -- Gorey Al after Bloody Bill and Killary!
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.