Frank,

You said in the other thread (it’s getting too long for me to download and read, I have a slow dial up connection!): As I tried to point out to Robert above, if you think the church has problems NOW, look back when the Tridentine rite was practiced near the time of the Reformation and see how bad the state of the church was. Did the rite stop it? No. Did the rite CAUSE it? No. But somehow you think NOW the rite is responsible.

I think the “Traditional” versus post conciliar Church debate at this forum is about a lot more than just the rite of the Mass. We are living in the most sinful era in human history. What’s really happening to Christ’s Mystical Body, IMO, is all about sin running rampant and gashing at Her sacred members, including Her Heart.

It’s about the Church and Her ministers not paying attention to (nay, even suppressing and spreading lies about) Our Lady of Fatima’s Reparatory message (namely the call to prayer, penance, and conversion).

Yes Frank, I agree that the world and the Church were already in bad shape before, in previous centuries. Even when the Tridentine rite reigned supreme. Sin has always existed, that's for sure. But there is more sin going on in the Church and the world today than at any other time in history. How can you doubt this, Frank? Just look around you. The evils in the Church and in the world of centuries past that you spoke about are only “a walk in the park” compared to and in proportion to what’s going on today Sin has institutionalized itself. I was amazed how a little Googling/research backs this claim up too:

There have been over 42,000, 000 abortions since 1973. The UN reports over 40 million abortions worldwide per year. Get this: In 1997, more children died from abortion than Americans died in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World Wars I and II, the Korean, Vietnam and Gulf Wars combined.

In Russia, abortion is almost an epidemic that is actually seriously threatening Russia’s long-term survival. The average woman in Russia may have as many as four to seven abortions in her lifetime. There are two abortions for every live birth. That is to say, Russians kill two-thirds of their children before they are born! Since 1984 alone (when the supposed “Consecration” took place – ha!), it has conservatively been estimated that over 800,000,000 babies have been murdered worldwide, either directly by governments or by their indirect approval.

Now, that is just regarding the modern plague of abortion (which alone arguably surpasses all other sinful plagues in the entire history of the world). Let’s move on to some other examples of the way sin has institutionalized itself, shall we?

Widespread abortion (covered this), contraception, 50-60% divorce rate, pre-marital sex, homesexuality run rampant, in the world and within the Church like never before (want stats and proof for this?), infidelity among Catholic laypeople who to go to Holy Communion without repentance or without confession, widespread drug use, 70% of Catholics today not believing in the True Presence - and even more shocking, 50% of Catholic priests not believing in the True Presence!, vocations radically down since Vat II, 300 to 50,000 +annulments a year since Vat II, etc.

St. Alphonsus teaches us that there are four sins that cry out to Heaven for vengeance. One of them is homosexuality and another is the deliberate taking and killing of innocent human life. Both of these sins have increased a thousand fold in our generation through the sins of abortion and its legalization, as well as legalization in favor of homosexuality.

(BTW, check out some of these stats on how anti-Catholic the world Media is: Professor Robert Lichter conducted a survey of the national news media and found that: 50% of journalists do not believe in God, 86% seldom or never attend religious services, only 2% are practicing Catholics. 90% support abortion, 76% find nothing wrong with homosexuality, 54% believe that adultery is permissible. Interesting, ain't it?)

All of this is drawing down God’s anger upon us, as Our Lady of Fatima warns. “God is going to punish the world and it will be in a terrible manner”. -- Sister Lucy of Fatima.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), October 13, 2003

Answers

Here are a few of the horrors of modern-day Russia and the “fruits” of the so-called ’84 “consecration”…

Besides having the highest rate of abortion in the world, Russia has the highest rate of alcoholism in the world. The two leading causes of death are alcoholism and violence. The average Russian man, since 1990, lives 8 years shorter a life span, because he is either killing himself from drinking too much alcohol or he is being killed by another citizen by acts of violence.

Russia is the world center for the distribution of child pornography. There has been a huge rise in Satanism in Russia, along with open assaults on the Catholic faithful, the Catholic priesthood, and the Catholic Church.

Against a fact there is no argument. And the fact is that the consecration of Russia has not taken place. But there are people in high places who want you to believe that it has. However, not even the pronouncement of a high level Vatican official can change the FACTS that I have just mentioned. Here’s the way –the only way – that we can end the crisis within the Church and the world, and bring true peace to mankind; and, most importantly, gain the salvation to many millions of souls. Let us pray every day for the Consecration of Russia to take place in union with all the Bishops of the world, according to Our Lady's requests. Let us promote the reparatory practice of the First Five Saturdays of the month devotion the way Our Lady requested at Fatima on July 13, 1917; and which was made obligatory in 1925 at Ponteverda and in 1929 at Tuy. We will save many souls from hell, including our own, by obeying these simple requests from Heaven.

Let us recite the Holy Rosary daily the way Our Lady has asked us to do, and let us tell others to pray the Rosary also. We are definitely in a crisis and are quite possibly about to be chastised by God, the way Our Lady of Fatima predicted, if we do not obtain the conversion of Russia soon, and if more of us do not begin to follow Heaven’s Peace Plan for salvation. ONLY SHE CAN HELP US. It's amazing. The Blessed Virgin holds out Her loving hand to help us, but the modern world and much of the Church, even to the top of the hierarchy, is not listening. Heck, they've ignored her message for the last 40 years and allowed Russia's errors (like abortion) to spread far and wide, just the way it was prophecied! !

Please, let us proclaim far and wide the Blessed Mother's message/plea for prayer and penance in our time, a time which is so disoriented and confused.

"Let them not offend God anymore, as He is already too much offended". - the words of the Blessed Mother in her last apparition at Fatima.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), October 13, 2003.

Shalom Robert,

Actually, we see Fatima differently. In our understanding of Fatima our Blessed Mother gave us a choice- consecrate Russia according to my plea and I will be able to hold back the great tribulation before my Son's returns until another generation or ignore my plea and face these days in your lifetime. It could be argued that the existence of Israel in 1943 put us beyond that point of holding off the end times already, especially if we are correct that the third Fatima vision is already in motion as seen by its first possible fulfillment in Vatican II.

Further, in Revelations 6 the Four Living Creatures, each in turn, called out "come!" to their respective horsemen. According to Jewish tradition, they are named the face of the Father (the Lion), the face of the Mother (ox), the face of the Son (mans) and the face of the bride (eagle). We believe the first horse left when Yeshua (Jesus) breathed life into our Church (the face of the Son) in the first century. Next, we believe it was the Father who cried "come" to the ears of Pope Leo XIII in 1884 when he saw a vision in which our L-rd gave satan the right to "sift" our Church through the twentieth century (the face of the Father). Then in 1941 our Holy Mother told us of those three visions in which one we suspect was the consecration mentioned, may have been the next call of "come!" (the face of the Mother). And the last is from the Eagle, which we see as Rome or by implication, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. We do not know if this last call has gone forth (it can go forth we suspect by our Church not doing as she was told just as easily as her doing something) and this is why we are working on putting this evidence together so that someone in our leadership can look at this who may be able to answer that question.

So this is the gist of that question we wish to ask our leadership. In La Salette after the scourge, which most accept as we do was the Holocaust; there would be a false peace that would last 25 years. And after this false peace has happened and the twenty years has come to pass she warned: "The forerunner of the antichrist will assemble an army of men drawn from many nations united under his banner. He will lead them in a bloody war against those still faithful to the living God" (Our Lady at La Salette). So doesn't this mean all this was a forgone conclusion? And if so doesn't this make our Holy Mother's "choice" suspect?

We suspect possibly no, and we base our conclusions on her words at Fatima, however, if we are right it is already too late to hold off the end times (though it probably wouldn't hurt to do the consecration anyway). We say this based on these words our Holy Mother said at Fatima:

"The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI."

The war they were experiencing at this vision telling was WWI. The war she said would break out "if people do not cease offending God" and further "a worse one" and equally the suspected "scourge" according to La Salette was WWII that broke out right as Pope Pius XI was on his deathbed. And this "scourge" of WWII we suspect created that clock that would start ticking at a false peace; a false peace that many now strongly suspect the one with Russia in which the falling of the iron curtain came at the hands of the very same nation she told us to consecrate before that "scourge", and which our Church hesitated to do.

Therefore, if we correct in our conclusions (and only the Holy See can affirm this), then the present leadership is innocent of that error (they were either babies or young children at this time) and also if we are correct, could the lack of the consecration back in the late thirties have been our Church's inadvertent calling "come" to the horse heading toward Russia? If so, then might these visions of La Salette and Fatima II also lend light to properly interpreting the sixth book of Revelations as well?

We feel the answers to these questions are very important because according to this understanding of La Salette the clock is ticking. Further, we have to wonder if we have found a clock that appears to tick to that same date in Rev.12, and this clock's ringing will bring forth according to that word:

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of G- d and bear testimony to Jesus." Rev.6.17

We asked this very question (though not in this exact way) on another message board where we knew leaders of our Church frequent, but the response left little to work with in discussion. Basically one leader stated, it was the boy who cried wolf, however we noted on the message board that eventually that wolf did show up and he answered “very good” that’s all. So if we think we see something like a furry animal with sharp teeth, shouldn't we get an experienced shepherd to investigate it? We brought this here because of a dream that told us this message board might look like a "house", but it's really a "church" incognito. So is there a shepherd in the house willing to help us sort this out?

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 14, 2003.

Why was the consecration done until the present time? At least 6 popes had the opportunity. We can only speculate as to what would have happened, but it could not have been worse.

Both the popes, and bishops are aat fault for being disobedient, but the laity too, did not do their part. Enough blame to go around.

It will be done, but it will be done late. The hope is that it said "not too late"

-- Raymond (yarou@locum.com), October 14, 2003.

The Pope has not been "disobedient". Popes do not owe obedience to purpoted apparitions. The fact that Fatima is an "approved" apparition simply means that non of its messages are in opposition to the teachings of the Church, and the faithful therefore are ALLOWED to believe in the event, and in purpoted messages generated through the event, if they so choose. But no-one, including the Pope, is obligated to accept, believe, or act upon any supposed message which is a result of "private revelation".

It is inappropriate to be saying "Our Lady said this or that, and therefore we must do it". It is even more inappropriate to say "Our Lady said this or that, and the Church therefore MUST take action as directed". The ONLY statement that can be validly made relevant to such purpoted "messages" is "the Church has granted ME permission to believe in this apparition and its messages if I choose to do so, and I do choose to believe it". As such, it becomes a part of your personal devotion, but NOT anything binding on the Church, or binding on any individual Catholic.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 14, 2003.

Popes do not owe obedience to purpoted apparitions.

Are you calling this apparition purported?

But no-one, including the Pope, is obligated to accept, believe, or act upon any supposed message which is a result of "private revelation".

This was more than a 'private revelation'. This was a message to the world. This was Our Lady pleading with us. This was her being so loving as to give us the means for peace. This is her holding back the wrath of God. And all of this substantiated with a miracle seen by more than the 70,000 people present. It was also seen by other people in other places. All those who brush this off do so at their own peril.

It is inappropriate to be saying "Our Lady said this or that, and therefore we must do it".

And why is that? Do you think she would really say anything in opposition to the will of her Son?

It is even more inappropriate to say "Our Lady said this or that, and the Church therefore MUST take action as directed".

Yea, you're right. Surely the conversion that Our Lady promised should she be obeyed is bogus, right? I mean, we must be kind of ridiculous to think that miracles can happen, right? It's just kind of wierd that this cesspool of a world that we're wading in might have been avoided should we simply obey. But.......since it's inappropriate to think that way........

The ONLY statement that can be validly made relevant to such purpoted "messages" is "the Church has granted ME permission to believe in this apparition and its messages if I choose to do so, and I do choose to believe it". As such, it becomes a part of your personal devotion, but NOT anything binding on the Church, or binding on any individual Catholic.

Remember, you blow this off at your own peril and the peril of many souls you could have a hand in saving. Do you say your Rosary, make the Five First Saturdays, pray and do penance as often as you speak in tongues?

-- Isabel (joejoe1REMOVE@msn.com), October 14, 2003.

Paul, Fatima has to be an 'approved' apparition, even if for no other reason than that you spend so much of your time attacking the message of Fatima and such ardent defenders and promotors as Father Gruner, Father Trinchard, etc. If the Mother of God's message at Fatima were not a threat to you and your liberal, modernist, communist agenda, you would not give it the right time of day.

As Robert and others have correctly stated in this forum, we must all pray our daily rosary for the specific intention for the Consecration of Russia To The Immaculate Heart of Mary........whether you approve or not.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 14, 2003.

Dear Isabel,

You sak: "Are you calling this apparition purported?"

A: ALL reported apparitions are purpoted. Some are allowed, most are disallowed, but none are proven and none constitute required belief. Would you expect the Pope to offer teaching binding on the universal Church, based on nothing other than a devotion which Catholics are ALLOWED to freely accept or reject?

You say: "This was more than a 'private revelation'."

A: No, it was not. It was PRECISELY what is meant by the term "private revelation" - an individual or individuals claiming that they are receiving personal messages from God, via Mary or any other source.

You say: "This was a message to the world. This was Our Lady pleading with us."

A: By the Church's proclamation, you are free to believe, or not believe, that there was a message. You are free to believe, or not believe, that it was for the world. And, you are free to believe, or not believe, that it was from Mary. You happen to choose to believe that it was a message from Mary. I happen to as well. But there is NO valid reason to demand that all Catholics believe it, or therefore that anything binding on all Catholics should result from it.

You say: "It is inappropriate to be saying "Our Lady said this or that, and therefore we must do it" And why is that? Do you think she would really say anything in opposition to the will of her Son?"

A: Of course she wouldn't! But that doesn't mean that every statement that is not in opposition to the will of God is from Mary!

You say: "Yea, you're right. Surely the conversion that Our Lady promised should she be obeyed is bogus, right?"

A: The Church does not say that Our Lady promised anything! It only says that individual Catholics may believe she promised something.

You say: "Remember, you blow this off at your own peril and the peril of many souls you could have a hand in saving"

A: Nothing in private revelation is necessary for salvation, mine or anyone else's.

You ask: "Do you say your Rosary, make the Five First Saturdays, pray and do penance as often as you speak in tongues?"

A: Yes.

Dear tarses,

You state: "Paul, Fatima has to be an 'approved' apparition, even if for no other reason than that you spend so much of your time attacking the message of Fatima and such ardent defenders and promotors as Father Gruner, Father Trinchard, etc."

A: I do not attack the "messages" at all. The Church has said that acceptance of them is permissible, and I follow the teaching of the Church, so why would I attack what Holy Mother Church says is permissible? I do however criticize those who would try to force these purpoted messages upon the Church at large, as though "permissible" meant "dogmatic", for that is a violation of Church teaching.

You say: "If the Mother of God's message at Fatima were not a threat to you and your liberal, modernist, communist agenda, you would not give it the right time of day."

A: Nothing reportedly said by Mary is contrary to Church teaching, and therefore nothing she reportedly said is a threat to any real Catholic. In fact, the "messages" she delivered are so commonplace that one must wonder why God sent her to repeat what the Church has taught for 2,000 years - The only threat connected with approved private revelation occurs when some who have accepted such events as genuine try to force their personal beliefs on others, in direct violation of what the Church teaches.

You state: "As Robert and others have correctly stated in this forum, we must all pray our daily rosary for the specific intention for the Consecration of Russia To The Immaculate Heart of Mary........whether you approve or not"

A: I do most heartily approve of such prayer! However, I do not approve of statements like "we MUST pray our daily rosary", for that is simply not true. The Church does NOT teach that a daily rosary is required for salvation, for living a rich and full Catholic life, or for any other reason. The Church obviously ENCOURAGES such devotions, but does not specifically require them. As for Robert's statement "ONLY SHE CAN HELP US", that is objectively heretical. The only thing Mary can do for us is intercede for us, and that wonderful gift we should make full use of. But He who created the universe by an act of His will is quite capable of helping us, with or without the intercession of one of His creatures.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 14, 2003.

Paul, We know how you feel about the The Blessed Virgin and about the Fatima messages. Who's kidding who here? You attack Father Gruner every single chance you get. Regarding your comment: What the Blessed Virgin says is so 'commonplace' and the messages she comes with are the same that the church has taught for 2000 years. How dare you. She only comes when God sends her. You are deliberately attempting to make light of the fact that the Fatima message is old news and of no importance. The Catholic church hasn't taught the Fatima message for the last 2000 years, because the Mother of God was not sent here by God Himself with that message until 1917. Even Pope John Paul II recognizes the importance of the Fatima message and he himself has declared that Russia herself has not been consecrated, let alone properly. And YES, we MUST pray the daily rosary for the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary because God said so through Our Lady of Fatima. This is what he commanded or the Consecration will not take place and the entire world will be chastised by Russia (this was the Fatima message). So why do you continue to shoot the messenger(the Blessed Virgin Mary. Regardless of what you say you are not doing, you are in fact belittling the importance and the meaning of the message.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 14, 2003.

I'm a "traditionalist", but I must agree with Paul. The apparition at Fatima is private revelation and is not binding on anyone. The over-emphasis on private revelation is often referred to by some traditionalist writers as "Fatimism". Give Paul a break - he's right.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), October 14, 2003.

Nick, I must disagree with you that the apparition at Fatima was a private revalation. God does not waste miracles, much less does God waste a public miracle witnessed by 70,000 people, believers and nonbelievers (including Freemasons) alike, which occurred precisely the moment predicted three months earler by the three children whose testimony had been doubted at that time. Throughout salvation history, God has granted miracles to serve as a divine credential for a witness who invokes the miracle in His name.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 14, 2003.

The seers are proclaimed saints now too... for the doubtful, that should factor into the credibility equation a bit.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 14, 2003.

tarses,

You think that the Holy Catholic Church first taught about prayer, penance, and conversion in 1917? This is the ongoing message of the Church since it was founded by Our Lord and Savior. Why must God suddenly send His mother to tell us the very same thing that His Church has been telling us for centuries? Now, if Mary came with a radically new revelation, something that has never before been known by the Church, then I might be simultaneously more suspicious AND more interested. But the idea that the Mother of God appears on earth to say "pray"; "love one another"; "do penance"; "seek conversion". If people haven't listened to this message from the Church, which they can see, and which scripture identifies as the foundation of truth, then they are not going to be receptive to that same repetitive message purpotedly delivered by an unseen apparition. I am not belittling the importance of the "message". The "message" is crucial indeed. But it was here, being preached by the Church, for many centuries before the purpoted events at Fatima.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 14, 2003.

Hi, Paul

You said:"ALL reported apparitions are purported. Some are allowed, most are disallowed, but none are proven and none constitute required belief. Would you expect the Pope to offer teaching binding on the Universal Church, based on nothing other than a devotion which Catholics are ALLOWED to freeley accept or reject?"

Nope! But its not as"cut and dry" as you make it seem. Catholics arn't required to ever say a Hail Mary prayer in there lifetime. Do you know a Catholic that has never prayed the rosary?

And the Pope did teach something binding on the Universal Church Paul about Fatima. The beatification process for the Fatima seers Francisco and Jacinta Marto began in 1952 and was finished in 1979.Don't you agree?

Because on Feb/15th 1988 the final documentations was presented to Pope John Paul II and to the Congregtion for the causes of Saints. They were both declared"venerable" on 5/13/89.

We know there in Heaven now right Paul? I doubt if these saints were making this up like some people I heave read in this forum before.

So this is why I say it is as not "cut and dry" as you make it seem. You put more work in "believing" in your "tongues" than you do in Fatima. I think you are a good man(and very, inteligent), but a little mixed up.

-- . (David@excite.com), October 14, 2003.

This is a sloppy, field-use sort of method, but when all else fails, it works pretty well in determining a course of practical action to take when reason doesn't produce any real clarity:

"God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up... Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, you knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose... But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is... If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. Pascal

Here it's used in reference to the existence of God, but it could be applied to other items as well.

I agree 100% with Robert, but Paul says some true things too though it comes across on the technical side, so again, it's down to a matter of choices.

My opinion is that good choice gets shored up with good knowledge.

Paul must be an engineer. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 15, 2003.

"But He who created the universe by an act of His will is quite capable of helping us, with or without the intercession of one of His creatures."

Paul,

Have you ever read St. Louis De Montfort's masterpiece "True Devotion to Mary"? I am not sure you have. I re-read it again tonight and I found that some of your thoughts about the Blessed Mother, such as the one above, run awfully close to actually contradicting the words and writings of this great saint (and other great saints who were devoted to the Blessed Virgin). (Btw, "The Sorrowful Virgin shared in the redemption with Jesus Christ", is a statement which was made by a number of popes, including Benedict XV and Pius XII.)

Now, De Montfort's book speaks clearly about the crucial role God willed to be given to the Blessed Virgin Mary as co-Redemptrix of mankind, . I find it almost uncanny the way St. Louis De Montfort seems to be directly referring to Our Lady of Fatima in his book - even though he wrote it a century or so before! Here are a few quotes from "True Devotion to Mary"...

even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority that God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with Him that He accepts them as commands in the sense that He never resists His dear Mother's prayers because it is always humble and conformed to His will."

Oh, and a few quotes from his section: "Mary's Part in the Latter Times"...

"The salvation of the world began through Mary

"God wishes to make Mary better known in the latter times..."

"As she was the way by which Jesus first came to us, she will again be the way by which He will come to us the second time though not in the same manner."

"In these latter times Mary must shine forth more than ever in mercy, power, and grace...."

Paul, I truly hope that you and others are not downplaying the seriousness of the message of Our Lady of Fatima or the importance of the necessity of devotion to Our Lady for our salvation. If you are, then according to St. Louis De Montfort and many other saints (not me) you are making a seriously bad judgement call. The Message of Fatima holds a lot of weight for the Church and the modern world. It is the greatest apparition in the history of the world. Fatima is more than just your average 'private revelation', and many scholars, priests, etc... have said so also.

-- Robert (Robertp234@hotmail.com), October 15, 2003.

But it still will not be the end.

-- (emerald1@cox.net), October 15, 2003.

If the HTML rises in the east to threaten me, I place myself under Mary's mantle and invoke the mercy of God. In the words of the Psalmist "a thousand htmls fall to my left, ten thousand to my right, but my faith is in the Lord".

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

Well you got to be nice to him anyways, tarses, since he's my wife's cousin and she'll kick my rear for anything you say wrong... lol!

Joe is actually a pretty darn good guy. I'm sure we would wrangle into an oblivion over Trad/Neo conflicts, but I'm pretty sure he's not possessed by Satan.

If he is, I'll have to employ an exorcise before I make a Trad out of him instead of after.

(j/k Joe!)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 15, 2003.

Oh that's just great: forged documents on the Vatican's website! Sweet! So infallible - as if you'd know what the "real documents" looked like! Of course we can safely bet that either the Pope and cardinals mentioned don't know what's on their own website, or do and are in on the conspiracy just because Mr. Nobody on the internet who doesn't even give us his real name says so!

Face it. I back up my faith with links and facts. You arrogate to yourself all powers of judgement over Pope and tradition, theology and philosophy. We are all supposed to bow down to YOU without any other reason other than: you say so.

Where's your PROOF that it's a forgery? Where's your PROOF for your view of things?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

Joe, Go onto the Vatican website and see IF you can find anything about the Metz Pact, better known as the Vatican-Moscow Agreement. It's about the betrayal of the Message of Fatima. In 1962, in Metz, France, Cardinal Tisserant met with KGB Operative Metropolitan Nikodin of the Russian Orthodox Church. It is an irrefutable historical factr regarding the Second Vatican Council and the messages of Fatima.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 16, 2003.

Emerald,

You are actually related to Joe? Boy, do you have your hands full! You two must get into some very contentious debates over the trad vs. modernist issue. But like I stated in a more recent thread, unfortunately, there really are two very different religions within the Catholic Church. The OLD labels the NEW as modernist and the NEW labels the OLD as schismatic.

-- (tarses@sbcglobal.net), October 16, 2003.

The Church labels the current as "Catholic". The "old" labels itself as schismatic by denying the authority of the Pope to make decisions for the Church. That's what schismatic means. The Metz Pact was simply an agreement not to make Vatican II a forum for the condemnation of Communism, in exchange for Russian bishops being allowed to attend the Council. It was a wise pastoral decision. The bishops attended. The Vatican kept its promise, well sort of. It didn't denounce "Communism" by name during official procedings and documents of the Council, though it did condemn "totalitarian regimes" in the strongest of terms, and no-one had any doubt about which regimes were being condemned. What this has to do with "betraying" a purpoted message delivered by a purpoted apparition is beyond me.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 16, 2003.

Emerald,

So thats why Joe said he doesn't think you should be banned.:-)[just kidding]

Didn't you mention something about meeting Joe for the first time(in person) a few months back in forum?

-- - (David@excite.com), October 16, 2003.

What this has to do with "betraying" a purpoted message delivered by a purpoted apparition is beyond me.

The Vatican does not wish to offend Russia. Consecrating Russia specifically would offend Russia because it makes clear that it *needs* conversion.

-- Regina (Regina712REMOVE@lycos.com), October 16, 2003.

Shalom Traditionalist and other supporters of Fatima,

We believe we can understand your frustrations of not having people taking you seriously on Fatima and the words of our Blessed Mother. It is one thing when the vision is about watching less TV or praying more, but Fatima and La Salette forewarn serious consequences with worldwide ramifications if we ignore them; not private information for the growth and enlightenment. For example, there is a date foretold in La Salette and we believe we may have confirmed this date though certain Scriptural passages in Rev.12. When this date comes to pass she said there would be a worldwide famine that we should prepare for (the causes for this famine we also suspect is evident in the details of Revelation 8). Yet, if this is true why do our leaders not listen to her? Why do they just keep telling us to quiet down?

The answer we believe is found within a message given by St. Paul to the Galatians. Put simply there is a right way and wrong way to seek the adjustment of your superiors:

"Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted." Gal.6.1

We are to be meek (gentle/humble) when we go before another, particularly a leader whom we suspect maybe in error. Doing so is risky because when we think we perceive error in another person, there is risk of suffering from pride. And even if we aren't, any small sin we had prior to bringing forward this grievance can get in the way of reaching the other person and this is what we believe Yeshua meant when He said:

"… first take the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." Matt.7.5

So many we read here in this Fatima support group decry the state of present Church, but don't these know that our leadership is also concerned about these things? Yet our leadership knows that this problem DID NOT start with Vatican II (as so many have claimed) and as we tried to show this with our piece on "Taters, precious, what are taters?” History shows that there were serious problems in our faith during the late nineteenth century that made the Holocaust possible; a war found in BOTH Fatima and La Salette. Further we are told to:

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Gal.6.2

You do not make a very strong case when you claim Catholics (and non- Catholics) should listen to the papacy and Magisterium and then you condemn this same papacy for not doing the Consecration, or even state an ecclesiastical council (for whatever reason) does not bind you. You can belabor these points extensively, however by doing this we strongly believe that you are actually shutting down our leadership’s interests in looking at Fatima! And do not lecture us that this the meaning of the Fatima visions because the pope was dressed in white (victory), not gray (death), these points we read here of this nature are your interpretations of her words only! And that leads to the next point:

"For if any one thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each shall have to bear his own load." Gal.6.3-5

We are to test our own work first and James warns us that those who teach “WILL be judged with greater strictness. For we ALL make mistakes”. Therefore knowing ahead that we will make mistakes if we teach (tell people right from wrong) and that we will also be judged does it not make sense that we should approach our brother who we perceive is in error with a humble Spiritual heart, willing to learn and grow, willing to try and understand, and willing to back down if we are found in error? Only then can we ever hope to, "share all good things with him who teaches". Gal.6.6

It is the example of behavior that speaks louder than the many words of an individual. Also, the Spirit of G-d is a peaceful spirit, not one shouting, demanding or condemning. This is why we are warned: “Do not be deceived; G-d is not mocked, for whatever a man sows he WILL also reap.” If we are to proclaim our Blessed Mother’s words should we not also emulate her quiet nature? If we are to defend Sister Lucia’s insights should we not also assume her obedience to ALL leaders in our Church? Doing so will take far longer to get results, but in the end we believe we get the result our Blessed Mother will be proud of. This is why Paul also told us:

"And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap." Gal.9

We live in a fast paced world of sound bytes and infomercials, but our Blessed Mother told us ahead of time that this prophecy she was giving to enlighten Revelations would be for our Church a great mountain with a cross at its top not a sojourn in country side. It will split that city (there is only one “city” in Roman Catholicism) and the righteous pope will walk with stilted footsteps as he watches members of his flock fall into sin and death, so is it any wonder we are finding it hard to get anyone to listen? Yet it does not help those of us who believe that these visions are indeed of end times if by your sin and rhetoric you take away our right to speak of them and tighten our leaders ears to them all the more. We believe by doing so we would then serve not the Blessed Mother but the false prophet she warns will one day rise.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 16, 2003.

Shalom Joe,

You wrote:

>>>My opinion is that the Pope already HAS CONSECRATED RUSSIA AND THE WORLD to Mary, and since Sister Lucia has agreed with this opinion, I feel that further argument is moot. >>>

Unlike others here, we are less concerned whether the consecration actually has happened, but more concerned it may have come too late. We say this because as we wrote above (our first post on this thread) that we wonder if that seal has already passed and that the prophecies of the third vision are already in motion (begun in 1960 with Vatican II). We also suspect La Salette has within it a time clock and a date that we wonder if we can know and should know because in that year nothing will grow and famine will spread worldwide. We believe we have found confirming evidence in Rev.12 to the date as well as the details as to why nothing might grow in Rev.8. We would like to share this with others in our Church, but so far no one seems willing to go though our work. Yet that date is coming on very quickly and once before when we found such a date as this, that date came and so did the predicted event (also found in Rev.12). Further, this next event affects Christians and so we do not want to have a "wait and see" approach to this one especially as that vision predicts enormous misery and death that could be avoided if we as a church take her words to heart and prepare (think of Joseph, no pun intended).

So what do you think of this in light of what we wrote? And also please note we also have submitted all we have written (as most of what we've seen) to leaders that we believed were able to forward to the proper authorities of our Church once we completed our research into them (all but one set which can only go to the leader whose name was given in a dream). And further, we posted these on our website for their perusal as well. This is why we are here posting these same things here, but sometimes we wonder if anyone is listening.

So any help you can give even connecting this information to the right HTML shepherd would be greatly appreciated - thank you,

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 16, 2003.

But this whole issue of prophecies which are proclaimed in 1917 and then infallibly must come true is bogus... free will exists, and grace exists, and so just because Mary warned us that X will come if Y is not done, does not mean that it will still happen if Z happens instead!

How can you see the events of 1989 and not see a stop to the rise of communism and the spread of its errors around the world? For that matter how can you see the near miraculous survival of John Paul II in 1981, and not see that Mary could interceed in the history of men and keep a prophecy from becoming true?

Did not Jonah also receive a prophecy "30 days more and Ninevah will be destroyed!" Then he sat down to watch the fireworks... and they never came! How disappointed he was! How disappointed some Fatima people seem to be when no 3 days of darkness happen and no cataclysm wipes out their annoying neighbors and disbelieving kin?

What is your hope and faith based on anyway? Jesus Christ who contiues to build up HIS church? or an apparition? What's more powerful metaphysically? A prayer or a sacrament?

How can a prayerful consecration of a nation be more potent than the Eucharistic presence of Our Lord???? Yet you Fatima people blithely accept this consecration as a SUPER-SACRAMENT...

And rather than cooperate with the Pope and Church in converting your neighbors... you hunker down praying the rosary and doing devotions...all well and good...but not lifting a finger to evangelize the culture or even deepen your faith!

Faith people! To believe in what you do not see! Like Denethor in the Lord of the Rings, you look in your crystal ball, see terrible images of vast armies on the march, and you despair! Instead you should have faith in the powers of goodness and in the humble, silent work being done around the world... if only you spent more time looking for the good news than for the bad!

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 16, 2003.

Shalom Joe,

You asked:

>>>How can you see the events of 1989 and not see a stop to the rise of communism and the spread of its errors around the world?

We felt that time was a false “peace” fabricated so that America would put her guard down, which she has. Further, in La Salette our Lady stated this false peace will last only 25 years, which brings us to 2014 as date it will end. We initially had this date wrong because we erroneously used 1979 and never caught this mistake until your post – thank you. Unfortunately, this correction does not dismiss everything we had perceived, even though it seems that we have more time than originally thought.

Further according to Rev.12.6 a woman (possibly our Church, as being represented by our Blessed Mother?) is to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days (3 ½ years). If attached to the date of that great portent in the heavens (Rev.12.1), that would bring it to the spring of 2004. Considering that the date we figured out before (fall of 1999) has already yielded enormous suffering upon Israel when Israel came to the end of their nourishment, should we not also be concerned about this other date? Still Israel was not judged until that entire year passed and the next year was starting. So assuming our figures are correct, might Christianity get a full year as well before judgment commences? If so, then that judgment would come in 2005 the very same year when we have reached the forty years of Vatican II (years of proving).

In 1965 our Church called her children to reconcile with Judah and their Protestant brothers (pledges) and to give unto these forgiveness because they do not see as we see (kindness). In 2000 Israel faced a flood of attacks, on discos, at a Passover feast and on school buses where bombers came and killed the least able to defend themselves. Yet on the world stage it is Israel who is the criminal and the bombers who are made into victims. Therefore we feel that in time the measure they gave will be what they get:

“Then the dragon was angry with the woman (Israel), and went to make war on her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of G-d and bear testimony to Jesus” Rev.12.17

>>>For that matter how can you see the near miraculous survival of John Paul II in 1981, and not see that Mary could intercede in the history of men and keep a prophecy from becoming true? >>>

We do not see John Paul II miraculous survival in this light. We believe she is protecting him simply because his work here on earth is not yet done. We see him potentially as that righteous pope in the third Fatima prophecy that has the courage to resume climbing that mountain once he is aware it must be climbed further. Therefore, is she protecting him and upholding him because she is keeping this prophecy from coming true or because she knows he needs her there as this prophecy unfolds? Still we sometimes find it hard to believe he will live another ten years, but we will not put our L-rd to the test (though we pray that he does live to be the one). All things are possible if we only believe.

>>>What is your hope and faith based on anyway? >>>

It is based on the Word of G-d and (to borrow words of a song) the Faith of our fathers LIVING still in spite of dungeons, fire or sword! It is based on the Catechism that clearly states:

“The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom ONLY through this final Passover, when she will FOLLOW her L-rd in His DEATH and resurrection.” Cat.677

We are not Protestants looking for easy ways out, such as the pre- trib rapture; we are Catholics willing to take up His cross and follow Him to whatever end, just as you are.

>>>Jesus Christ who continues to build up HIS church? or an apparition? What's more powerful metaphysically? A prayer or a sacrament? >>>

Is His Church greater than His Son? If Yeshua (Jesus) was not spared the cross for our sake nor our first pope, by what right do we have to claim we are above this? Further it is a prayer by a righteous priest that causes G-d to open His heavens to bring the Presence of Yeshua down to us in this first place, so prayers can and are powerful in the hands of a righteous servant of G-d.

>>>How can a prayerful consecration of a nation be more potent than the Eucharistic presence of Our Lord???? Yet you Fatima people blithely accept this consecration as a SUPER-SACRAMENT... >>>

We accept our Holy Mother’s words when (1) our Church declares as such or (2) when we believe these are confirmed in Scripture. Of course when no one takes us up on those Scriptures and avoids them entirely, this only causes us to suspect greater validity in our perceptions- whether false or true. If you wish then to correct us from this claimed error, we welcome the opportunity and we ask that you please go to its source- Scripture.

>>>And rather than cooperate with the Pope and Church in converting your neighbors... you hunker down praying the rosary and doing devotions...all well and good...but not lifting a finger to evangelize the culture or even deepen your faith! >>>

We know you have been facing harsh judgment, Joe; but we were and are not judging you when we ask for help. All we are pleading for is proof to our error(s).

As to the claim that we do not uphold that Catholic faith diligently only shows how little you know of us. In fact we were drawn into studying prophecy because we found that we cannot argue the Church’s Catechism to Protestants (for they do not regard our teachings, just Scripture only). Once we have been able to show a good Scriptural study to them using prophecy, we were then able to make the next step and give solid Scriptural defenses for our Church. During this proceeding, it seemed that we would attract larger audiences for the other teachings and these teachings gain greater acceptance.

>>>Faith people! To believe in what you do not see! Like Denethor in the Lord of the Rings, you look in your crystal ball, see terrible images of vast armies on the march, and you despair! Instead you should have faith in the powers of goodness and in the humble, silent work being done around the world... if only you spent more time looking for the good news than for the bad! >>

This remark only proves in our mind that our words to the Traditionalists, and those who support Fatima, are indeed closing this door. Yet we also know they are doing this because they fear that our Church is like Theoden who is listening to Wormtongue (the false-prophet) who is telling him everything is fine as the West Falls. We are not saying this is true, but rather this is how we ascertain how they feel.

Still we believe Fatima and La Salette are only a curse to those who are too fearful to look at them but to those of us who do not fear the End Times, who accept Matt.10.26-42 as literal and contemporary, our Holy Mother’s words are an opportunity to fulfill all He asked us to do. We suspect when our Church sees this vision’s truth, she will become as Joseph and put away foods in these years of plenty for the coming years of famine (2014 by our present estimation) so she can feed the entire world when it comes (possibly spiritually feed them as well). Then when Protestants come for food they may just ask her how she knew and she could point to Yeshua’s (Jesus’) Mother whom they do not believe in and say, “She told us to”. We wonder if this is why Yeshua sent her with those messages, for that particular date is not confirmed in the Word. And further, when Jacob needs grain and sends his sons to buy, she can step into the shoes of her forefather and…. well, you know the rest of that story.

Hopefully we cleared some things up.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 16, 2003.

Very very interesting.

"So thats why Joe said he doesn't think you should be banned.:-) [just kidding]"

Exactly Dave! Right Joe? =)

"Didn't you mention something about meeting Joe for the first time (in person) a few months back in forum?"

Right, in D.C. last January.

You know what Joe, the fundamental divide where you and I split in thinking most likely centers around what it means to be in the world and not of it. From that probably flows a million other differences in our thinking on any number, or even all, Catholic topics on a table for discussion. Does that make any sense?

In tandem with the answer to that, and along side it, is probably the question of exactly how philosophy and human reason are incorporated into the things of the Catholic Faith.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 16, 2003.

...all of which relates directly imho in how someone approaches a phenomena such as Fatima. Just so's you know I think it relates to the thread somehow.

-- (emerald1@cox.net), October 16, 2003.

Shalom Emerald,

Still even if all of what you believe is true (and only time will prove this) it wasn't Eomer (EO-Earliest part of, Mer- Hbrw: {the} distillation/cleansing) that will break through with the truth, remember he was banished and sent away. Release came from Gandalf (Gan- Hbrw: "garden" which is His Word, Dulf- Hbrw: to flow slowly, fut. tense).

So to translate: even if Tolkein was writing something more than even he knew, a parable for his Church in the days to come and even if the false-prophet does exist (Den a Thor) and has in his mole (Wormtongue) in our midst, the armistice will not be exposed by cleaning up what you perceive as apostasy, because we suspect this would be exactly what our enemy expects from us to do, and he will already know how to shut this down (as he may have done in the past). Release comes, we believe, from the slow flowing forth of the Word of G-d, exposed by Our Blessed Mother and made victorious by a servant (Ha-HBRW: the Man-HBRW: portion thus "the portion") within that house who will allow this garden to get to his "king" with his staff still in his hands. And this garden is none other than Yeshua (Jesus) Himself because only the Lamb can open the scroll. This garden, this Word made manifest, will bring our Church out of that stupor if indeed she is in one; and when it has come to pass, we must be there for her because the enemy will be very angry to see his plot destroyed. Then we all will have to flee deeply into papal infallibility (Helm's Deep) and trust in the promises of our Moshiach that satan will not prevail. They must not trust in riding {him about} the north {Russia} for if all of this were true by the words of this parable, it is already too late for this. We should ride out to meet him, but will in the end take the one solution that has never failed us which happens to be fleeing to the depths of papal infallibility.

Of course the above scenario is just a story, right? Just part of an overactive imagination on our part if we read into it (Tolkien himself would agree to this)? Perhaps- but for what it's worth we have seen similar shadows (not exact) written in His Word and in those visions of our Holy Mother. So is it so crazy to suspect that the Ruach (Disciplining Spirit) might have reach out to Tolkien late in that last century as those 'taters" were going bad in France and Germany and all "hell" was about to break forth on our world? Is it too implausible to suspect the Spirit knew most believers, even those with hearts for G-d, have little tolerance for long complicated exegeses and extensive Biblical and Ecclesiastical arguments, even if such a proof does exist. Think of those ten bridesmaids- five woke up and accepted without question, but the others needed proof (give us some of yours) and so these had to go to the shopkeepers (priests and teachers who "sell" the word) and by the time they got that whole scoop and fully understood it all, HaMoshiach came and they were left outside the door. Though, nothing in that parable of the bridesmaids suggests Tolkien's story of course, but there is some reason why half that house simply trimmed their lamps (shook) and followed their pope while the other half demanded more oil (proof of anointing) and went into destruction.

Shalom alychem, C & C

-- C. Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 17, 2003.

Shalom tarses,

You said,

>>> Mr. Foegen (a non-Catholic) knows more about the Catholic Faith than either of you two. >>>

As we borrow from Tolkien (to stay with the theme):

"Almost felt like you like our testimony! That's good! That's uncommonly kind of you. We almost feel that we dislike you both (both sides because neither talks they only condemn), but do not let us be hasty." Treebeard, Two Towers.

Perhaps we should explain oursleves a little more. To begin with, there are two of us, Mr. & Mrs. Foegen, which is why we write "we" and sign with "C & C". Also, if you like our understanding of the Catholic faith, perhaps it's due to the fact we are Catholic. Although, if you had not spoke so kindly to us, we initially would have pegged you as a Protestant by your judging of others so harshly, thus we would have crushed some of your comments directed at Frank, Paul and Joe; for even if these are in error, they are still made in the image of G-d and share our Baptism. Yes, they sometimes speak strongly which isn't wise unless they are leaders, and if so might they show us this when they speak this way? Still, many of those on the other side including yourself (because you call anyone who disagrees with you or even questions your behavior "non- Catholic") are equally guilty of this same crime from what we see. Like Treebeard, whom we quoted at the onset, we find this behavior very odd "root and twig" because all of us are Christians (the Root) even if one or two are not Catholic; yet from the evidence we have here are twigs (laity) not branches (Church leaders). Very odd then we find this behavior! Wouldn't you agree?

Shalom, Corey and Carol Foegen (aka C & C)

-- Corey and Carol Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 17, 2003.

First of all, it's highly risky to try to predict the end of the world - because in the end your time table markers are subjective.

Why start the 40 year clock in 1965 rather than 1962? Or why not start the clock for the 25 year lull in 1991 or when Putin was elected and the Church dedicated to Christ the Savior was rebuilt in Moscow?

Then there is the OT and NT theology of prophecies themselves: they are predictions, not snap shots of what will infallibly occur without any control... in other words, they are contingent on many factors: God's mercy, man's response. So who's to say that La Salette and Fatima's prophecies only come half-true? Or given the growth of the faith in all non-European and white lands, that these dire consequences will only befall the US and EU rather than the whole world? YOU DON'T KNOW. Secondly, you talk about Russia lulling the US into complacency, "letting our guard down"! What a crock! The US is stronger than ever and Russia is weaker than ever. Look: they haven't held major naval manoevers in most oceans in years. Nor have they launched major surface vessels in years - they've sold their light carriers and their one major carrier is defective. Half their submarine fleet is being retired. They're still a serious land power - but even there they've cut their tank forces in half... No body is going to invade Russia...but they don't have the capability to invade anyone else either.

Communism is no longer a grave threat to world peace - but atheistic materialism is - and yet even there can you put a name on the nation or party or person who is the visible head of world-hedonism? No. This being the case, it's now a blind, disorganized mob action. Nowhere near as potent as the juggernaught of Stalinist communism or Maoist communism was.

Like Tolkein's view of middle earth, (very Catholic by the way), I know this world is passing away and has always been growing in pain awaiting the revelation of the children of God (cf. St Paul). I know there will be a new heavens and a new earth... so that my heart and faith can not be planted in the planet or this world as though this were all there is.

But then I also believe we have to do all we can to establish the Kingdom - which is begun in this world and fulfilled in the next. I also believe that the Church won't conquer the world (as the Jews, Moslems, Nazis, Commies, Mason, etc. all honestly claimed was their end-game and goal). We won't win by force of arms or our "apostolates", the victory will come from Christ.

But this doesn't mean to me that we few should just circle the wagons or hope for a miracle. We don't know when the end will come - so must work as thought it won't come for a millennium. We have to obey Christ's command to make disciples of all nations - maybe this doesn't mean every citizen of every nation will convert, but we at least must work hard using the tools available in every society and level and circle, to bring souls to know, love, and serve Christ in his Church.

I think the danger of the Fatima crowd is the that they want a super- miracle to convert evil-doers without them having to do anything. Just like magic. Of course, when nothing happens, you then blame the magician for not getting the rubrics "right" rather than questioning what exactly a "consecration" means.

My understanding of the Fatima message is this: unless every (or most) lay Catholics seriously persue lives of grace and holiness (daily prayer, frequent reception of the sacraments, first saturday devotions, etc), then all the official "consecrations" in the world won't do diddlysquat. Our Lady DIDN'T say just consecrate Russia and all will instantly be cured. She specifically added the dimension of lay holiness as part and parcel of the plan.

I see Vatican II's call to holiness as part of the Church's desire to make people holy - and I see the rebellion and Northern European and American blindness to holiness and pursuit of hedonism not as the direct fruit of the Council but Satans attempt to suppress the Council's message. Few if any of the architects of modern Catholic liberalism read or know the council's documents. They don't use them as constitutions or marching orders. They aren't the ones quoting them and gaining momentum from them...

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 17, 2003.

Joestong; you were dead wrong on the invasion of Iraq, and now you are wrong on Fatima. Listen to Our Lady!

-- (yankeegohome@daily deadamericans.com), October 18, 2003.

"can you put a name on the nation or party or person who is the visible head of world-hedonism"

Rightly or wrongly, America is viewed by the world as the visible head of capitalism,individual greed and excess, big business, hedonism, materialism, etc etc so in reply to your question

nation: USA

party: Republican

head: Dubbya

-- Shut up Joe (wheres the duct tape?@no politics.com), October 18, 2003.

Again Foegens, very interesting comments, but there was some editing and I think one of my responses to you was deleted and therefore your response to it is left hanging in part. To re-insert it, you said upthread:

"Yet we also know they are doing this because they fear that our Church is like Theoden who is listening to Wormtongue (the false- prophet) who is telling him everything is fine as the West Falls."

...to which I agreed that this is exactly what I immediately drew from the scene, that being the analogy to reality which I believe is embodied in that particular work or art.

In case the moderator took this as statement against the Catholic Church, please don't, because in that scene and using that particular analogy, the upshot in the analogy from this perspective is the preservation of what's Catholic and not the destruction of it, despite all appearances to some people with a different view. It's a valid speculation that, in it's intentions, is not malicious.

As for Joe's take on things, I agree with the person that disagrees with him in general terms, but let's not tell him to shut up... lol!

Back to this soon, it's sooo interesting.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

Shalom Joe,

You wrote,

>>>First of all, it's highly risky to try to predict the end of the world - because in the end your timetable markers are subjective. >>>

We agree there is a risk in people “crying wolf”, but we also should remember that indeed the wolf did one day come when no one was listening. Yet if we have become so cynical over the study of prophecy that we refuse to even check out potential claims, wouldn’t that suggest the reason as to why Yeshua (Jesus) warned us that He would come as thief in the night as most would be asleep when He came?

>>>Why start the 40-year clock in 1965 rather than 1962? Or why not start the clock for the 25-year lull in 1991 or when Putin was elected and the Church dedicated to Christ the Savior was rebuilt in Moscow? >>>

It is because Vatican II ended in 1965, not ’62, or ’91 and not when Putin was elected or any consecration done. Further, we never claimed Vatican II was anything but holy. Though you seem to equate pro- Fatima to be against Vatican II, however this is not the case with us, which we believe we have been rather consistent about.

We suspect Vatican II was the reason our Blessed Mother could hold back Yeshua’s flaming sword of Judgment on our world (thus Sister Lucia begged for the third vision to be released so people would know). Yet since our church fulfilled what was called by the Shepherd for her to do and set this before her children she has seen mixed results as you too have noted. On one side people attack her and those trying to abide the Spirit of G-d in implementing this council directives, claiming we are abandoning our faith. And on the other side people are twisting it’s meaning and using this as an excuse for their lawlessness. This is why we believe our Church was given those forty years because Yeshua knew ahead of time that wasn’t enough to reach the leadership; He also wanted to reach their flock and that this would be uphill battle (a mountain) with a cross at its summit. Then again, had that vision gone out as this council was adventing, might the realization that this was to be a mountain with a cross be enough to have kept the people in line? We suspect we’ll only know for sure when Yeshua comes and tells us.

>>>Then there is the OT and NT theology of prophecies themselves: they are predictions, not snap shots of what will infallibly occur without any control... in other words, they are contingent on many factors: God's mercy, man's response. >>>

We agree that “they are contingent on many factors” in Scripture these are called “seals” and once a “seal” is torn, we cannot go back to where we were before. On Sept. 12, 1999 one seal was torn. We believe it was torn because Israel and America lifted the “stone” of Jerusalem by putting this into the Last Status Talks in the Oslo Agreement, which happens to be another “seal”. This agreement broke down also in 1999, one year later to the exact month that the flood of terrorism came down which the earth (America and the UN) have tried to swallow it. The next event follows this, whether we accept those seals were torn or not. G-d Word is not dependant upon our belief in this!

>>>who's to say that La Salette and Fatima's prophecies only come half-true? >>>

We are not saying this, you are. It is those who only focus in on the call to “penitence, penitence, penitence,” who are saying, “La Salette and Fatima's prophecies only come half-true”, not those that are asking for proof in what they perceive. That vision was more than “penitence, penitence, penitence”!

>>>Or given the growth of the faith in all non-European and white lands, that these dire consequences will only befall the US and EU rather than the whole world? >>>

We never claimed that either, but if Russia is the aggressor and has built alliances with China and the Arab world (which they have) then believers in these nations are already under that yoke and is it folly to assume if America falls, Canada and South America are not far behind? Or if Arabs gain too much power (and with such hefty alliances this is likely) that the Africans nation would not fall beneath their yoke (many already are looking at Ethiopia and the Sudan)? Or that China would not, as she grows in aggression, seek to swallow up other nations such as Taiwan and Japan as she did Hong Kong? One by one all the free lands of our earth will fall to the power of the antichrist, the dragon and false prophet, as Scripture states!

>>>YOU DON'T KNOW. >>>

Only the Lamb can open that scroll, but short of Him coming down and announcing this on a PA system, exactly how will He do this? Further, Rev.1.1-3 say that the book will one day be “read with understanding”, so how will we know that has come if no one will check the exegeses of people trying to understand this book through prayer? And lastly, if portions of this book are coming to pass, is it not also plausible that the rest of this book might start to also make sense?

>>>Secondly, you talk about Russia lulling the US into complacency, "letting our guard down"! What a crock!

Russia in 1997 began to suppress religions evangelism throughout her lands (see Rev.6.5-6). Also around this time she began to build strong alliances with China, another highly atheistic nation where of the 8 percent of her people are believers (the highest number of believers are Muslim today). These two nations have shared war games and are also are pulling together for a joint space program. Yet at same time they are allied in their resistance to America's proposed Missile Defense Program. And speaking of missiles, Russia in 2001 delivered to China (as well as India and Iran) deadly Yahont missile and China already has a satellite program (as does Iran) to potentially deliver these long distances. Add to this the data and information China stole during the Clinton Administration, China can now deliver nuclear warheads to the American East Coast by submarine or even by land.

Both China and Russia further have important links to the Muslim world. China is a strong ally to Iran whom as we said shared their interest in long-range nuclear missiles. Further, the Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz met Russian President Vladimir Putin for talks where Russia asked the Saudi Crown Prince about Russia joining the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), and the Saudi Prince gave reportedly a powerful "impetus to the development of Russia's relations with international Moslem organizations, including the highly respected OIC" (ASSOCIATED PRESS, March 24, Copyright © 1999-2003 Islam Online). Further the Russian press states the Russia will take the OIC chair in October.

So, if Russia is so “reformed”, how come she reestablishing those old alliances with our “former” enemies? Further we are also warned, “When people say, ‘There is peace and security.’ Then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape.” 1Thess.5.3

>>>But this doesn't mean to me that we few should just circle the wagons or hope for a miracle. We don't know when the end will come - so must work as thought it won't come for a millennium. >>>

The teaching from the pulpit since our youth has always been that we must always be prepared, as if He is returning today, not “as though it won't come for a millennium”! Further it is those who put off His return into obscurity that slack off, not those expecting they could be brought before the Eternal Judge at any time:

“But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not let his house be broken into. Therefore you must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect”. Matt.24.43-44.

>>>I think the danger of the Fatima crowd is that they want a super- miracle to convert evil-doers without them having to do anything. Just like magic. Of course, when nothing happens, you then blame the magician for not getting the rubrics "right" rather than questioning what exactly a "consecration" means. >>>

Again we believe that you judging us falsely and that you ignored what we wrote in our defense. Respond based on all our words or cease misrepresenting us. Otherwise in our eyes you are acting no better than those Protestants when we Biblically prove the truth of the Transubstantiation (based on John 6) they then claim the book of John is invalid and stay in their sins.

>>>My understanding of the Fatima message is this: unless every (or most) lay Catholics seriously pursue lives of grace and holiness (daily prayer, frequent reception of the sacraments, first Saturday devotions, etc), then all the official "consecrations" in the world won't do diddlysquat. Our Lady DIDN'T say just consecrate Russia and all will instantly be cured. She specifically added the dimension of lay holiness as part and parcel of the plan. >>>

There is no question about our actions must represent our claims of faith, however you over simplify that message and ignore important details. If you wish to correct us you must PROVE you points based on ALL the information, not just pick a few words in each vision in our posts while ignoring all the rest!

>>>I see the rebellion and Northern European and American blindness to holiness and pursuit of hedonism not as the direct fruit of the Council but Satan’s attempt to suppress the Council's message. Few if any of the architects of modern Catholic liberalism read or know the council's documents. They don't use them as constitutions or marching orders. They aren't the ones quoting them and gaining momentum from them... >>>

And this is why we believe judgment is coming, whether people accept this or not. Can we prove this? Our case is stronger we believe since that last date was in fact confirmed, but the true test will come in spring of 2005. Also two days ago we came across the following from St. Nilus 430 (our impressions are in {}):

>>>>”After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable. When the time for the Advent of the Antichrist approaches, peoples minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonor and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will become unrecognizable. Peoples appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to there shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the Antichrist {the antichrist is not only a man but also an attitude, the denial of the Incarnation}. There will be no respect for parents or elders, love will disappear, and Christian pastors, bishops, and priests will become vain men, completely failing to distinguish the right hand way from the left (think of the recent scandals}. At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds and murder will rule in society.

At THAT future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they received in Holy Baptism and equally of remorse.

The Churches of God will be deprived of God-fearing and pious pastors, and woe to the Christians in the world at that time {this has been problem since the 1970’s}; they will completely lose there faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all. Then they will separate themselves out of the world in Holy refuges in search of lightening their spiritual sufferings, but everywhere they will meet obstacles and constraints {the modern “homesteading” movement}.

And all this will result from the fact that the Antichrist wants to be Lord over everything and become ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs. He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation with another from one end of the earth to the other {global communication, including the Internet}. At that time men will also fly through the air like birds {airplanes} and descend to the bottom of the sea like fish {submarines}.

And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is deceit of the Antichrist. And, the impious one! He will so complete science with vanity that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God in three hypostases (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Then the All-Good God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved, because the enemy wants to lead even the chosen into temptation, if that is possible--then the sword of chastisement will suddenly appear and kill the perverter and his servants.

The Father is my hope; the Son is my refuge; the Holy Spirit is my protector. O All-Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.” >>>>

So please enlighten us here. If these are not the last days then why did this fifth century visionary get so much right about our twentieth century world?

Back in the late twentieth century we saw enough things in Scripture for us to fear that judgment was coming down on America in form of terrorism, though we did not know when. Earlier this year we were told we hand blood on hands because a man who died in Oklahoma City would have listened to our weak testimony and not have been in that Federal Building on that day. We made that mistake once, which is why we put forth what we perceive; looking for confirmation or telling us we are wrong (of course with proof). Yet, nobody has to listen to us anymore than anyone needs to listen to our Blessed Mother, however we and any who will listen will homestead despite the “obstacles and constraints” and we will built up stores (which we will rotate) in these years of plenty just in case we are living in those days of the great famine. And whether you listen or not, we will feed you if you ever come to us in hunger. This is love.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 20, 2003.