As a non-Catholic Christian, I have a few questions about the conversion process. First off, if you know that you are going to become a Catholic but have not been formally received into the Church, can you still pray the Rosary, bless yourself with the Holy Water at a Catholic church, and call yourself a Catholic? I know that a non-Catholic cannot partake in the Eucharist, and this has caused some confusion for me. Thank you in advance for your replies.

-- Lauren (lauren2035@yahoo.com), October 18, 2003

Answers

You can pray any prayer or combination of prayers you wish, including the rosary. You can use sacramentals like holy water, but should make sure you understand their significance before doing so. You can attend Mass, but as you said you should not receive the Eucharist until you are received into the Church. I see no reason to claim that you are Catholic before you actually are, though I know of no hard and fast rule about this.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 18, 2003.

(bonus grammatica?)

Quare se habere generalis sine Corpus Christi (Hospes)?

Meus lapsus et culpa.

I hope you understand.

-- Turn Back The Clock (toosensitive@for.me!), October 18, 2003.

Faith you are obviously implying that Colossians 2:8 is referring to the Catholic Church. How do you arrive at that? Wouldn't you have to "walk with the Church", before you can make such an insinuation?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 18, 2003.

Jesus told the leaders of the Church - the ONE Church He founded for all men, the Holy Catholic Church - "He who hears you hears Me; he who rejects you rejects Me". If you are not in His Church you are not walking with Him. You may be making a sincere effort to walk with Him, and even partially succeeding with the bits and pieces of Christianity that are available through your manmade church; but what is required to truly walk with Him is not available anywhere except His own Church. That's why you would want to become Catholic "in particular" - because the Catholic Church is the only possible place to experience the fullness of Christianity.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophies, which depend on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." This is a warning against denominational religion, which is a product of men. Jesus called all men to be members of one Church, the one He personally founded, the only one which has a 2,000 year history.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 18, 2003.

"I think that we can find the original true church in the New Testament"

A: YES! We certainly can! And there we find a Church that is united in belief, not divided into conflicting denominations. There we find a Church with priests, bishops, and a single designated Vicar who holds the Keys to the Kingdom. In the New Testament we see a Church which met on sundays to celebrate the Eucharist, as commanded by Christ at the Last Supper; A Church which ministers through the sacrament of the sick; a Church which believed that one cannot enter the Kingdom without baptism, because Jesus said so; a Church where people confessed their sins and received absolution through the divine annointing of the apostles. How very far from that one original Church the many conflicting forms of "Christianity" have drifted! But that same New Testament Church still does all those same things in the same ways, 2,000 years later. Why would anyone look elsewhere for the fullness of Christian truth?

"Though I was raised Catholic and believe that the foundation of my faith was laid there, I never actually discovered Jesus personally until I opened the Scriptures"

A: If you attended Mass on sundays, the scriptures were opened for you, and explained to you accurately and authoritatively. Now you are in a manmade tradition where everyone explains the scriptures differently, and no-one agrees on what they mean. How can you think that such chaotic guesswork concerning the Word of God can possibly represent truth? Jesus said the TRUTH shall set you free - not whatever you personally think the truth is after reading the Bible.

"Jesus disliked religion and he advised against following the tradition of man over the Word of God"

A: Which is precisely why one needs to remain faithful to the ONE Church established for all men by Jesus Christ Himself, not the hundreds of conflicting manmade traditions of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Seabury, Wesley, and so man other founders of unauthorized semi-Christian churches.

"Jesus always said, "For it is written!" thus putting great emphasis on the importance of Scripture first and foremost"

A: Jesus said that only in reference to the Old Testament, since that was the only Scripture that existed at the time. However, the New Testament describes the CHURCH as the foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). It tells us that the CHURCH has the authority to speak for Christ, and that whatever the CHURCH binds on earth is bound in heaven. The New Testament tells us that the Holy Spirit leads the CHURCH to "all truth". Indeed there would be no New Testament if not for the Church, since the Church is where all New Testament truth existed even before it was written down, and long before the Church decided to collect some of its writings into a book. If the Bible had never been compiled, the Church would still possess and teach the fullness of Christian truth, just as it did before the Bible existed. And the Protestant tradition, with its thousands of conflicting, contradictory teachings and doctrines, demonstrates clearly what happens when men decide to follow Christ by their own traditions instead of the Word of God, authoritatively interpreted and taught by His Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

Hi Faith.

Your words are reflective of the Church of Christ sect. It is curious how you did not experience God in the Catholic Church and how I currently reflect back on my Catholic up-bringing, but I cannot experience His presence in any of the church "services", only in the mass. I need something more than an ongoing Bible study, prayer meeting, and musical. This has been my experience with Protestant services. The mass has an entirely different meaning and purpose. I cannot and will not partake in the Protestant Last Supper celebration. They keep telling me that it is "symbolic". Well, if it is "symbolic" and not sacred, then why bother partaking? Afterall, it is only a symbol and I got the meaning of that a long time ago; I won't forget that. There must be a real significance to the Holy Eucharist. You nor I can prove anything, so for me it will just have to be a matter of faith that Christ is there in body and blood. I'm struggling and fighting with Protestant lies and interpretations. Symbolism is fine, but reality is what seperates us.

ro

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

The Apostle Paul didn't quite see it the same way as you. He saw the "split" as an adverse effect of false teachings, false theologies, and false doctrines. Pretty much what we experience today.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

Hi Faith.

As I read your reply, it seems as though you are placing several pictures on top of each other and expecting me to tell you what I see. Well, I get confused with such a picture and I cannot answer you in the terms you've provided. I can paint this picture for you:

The mass brings people to the altar to receive Christ. I could think of it the way you've described the Eucharist--chewing/eating--but, I do not view it the same way. I see people going to the altar to accept Christ into their essence. I see faith in these people. They may not understand the theology, but they understand that Christ is present and they are experiencing a manifestation of their faith in Christ. The symbolic host doesn't manifest itself in this way. It is confusing to me, it was confusing to the Pharisees, it was confusing to the Apostles, yet some left and some stayed. Maybe, that is what we need to understand, that we must have faith in Christ? Yes, I think so and believe so. I cerainly don't want to become some kind of 21st Century Gnostic and be accused of "it's all in my head" syndrome.

Here is a phenomena I've consistently experience when observing Holy Communion and I cannot explain why this is happening to me:

The part of the mass of the Last Supper triggers it for me. My chest gets tight, my throat stiffens, and my eyes begin to water. I have this great feeling of rejections and loss (I've not reconciled and I'm still peeking through the doorway). During the Protestant service, I get a sense of resentment towards the congregation because it seems as though they do not understand what they are truly doing with communion. I have a brain-heart thing going on in my faith; I'll get right one of these days

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

BTW, did you know that for the Gnostics of Jesus' time used the word "eat" as a metaphor to mean "understand"? I'm wondering if Jesus put these Gnostic believers to the test--and us--by having them understand their false thinking: John 6:54. Jesus is not an idea or "gnosis" of eternal life; Jesus is eternal life for those who have faith in Him. It isn't about understanding Him; It is about believing in Him. "Eat" has different meanings, but let's not believe the wrong thing.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

"If Christ meant it literally.., does that mean that He was eating and drinking Himself at the Last Supper?"

A: No, it doesn't. Scripture does not say He partook of His body and blood. It says He gave it TO THEM (and us), and commanded THEM (and us) to continue partaking of it in remembrance of Him. Scripture then records that they did indeed continue partaking of the Eucharist.

"And how was He doing that since He was alive and well while He held the elements in His hand and refered to them as His body and Blood?"

A: He was GOD. How did He create the universe from nothing? How did He calm the sea? How did He multiply loaves and fishes? How did He rise from the dead? Such questions are meaningless, as the answers cannot be understood by mere human intellect. It is sufficient to know that He did these things. We can't understand HOW.

"It had to be a symbolic gesture. The truth is in His once for all time sacrifice at Calvary-- which the elements are to remind us of"

A: Some at that time also thought He was speaking symbolically, which is why He told them straight out that He was not ... "For My flesh is TRUE (not symbolic) food, and My blood is TRUE (not symbolic) drink. (John 6:55). At that time everyone present knew that He was speaking literally, not symbolically, which is why many left Him and followed Him no more. There would be no need to abandon Him over a mere symbolic statement.

"I don't need to believe I am literally eating and drinking Jesus in order to feel His presence."

A: That's right. If feelings is all you need, then they can be achieved any number of ways. But if you want to genuinely experience physical unity with Jesus Christ, in the way He intended it to be experienced, then you must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, for those who fail to do so lack the depth of spiritual life He intend for His followers. (John 6:53)

"I ask because Jesus says, at the Last Supper, that He will not drink again of the fruit of the vine (wine) until he is with us in the kingdom of God at the end of the age"

A: That's right. Here Jesus is speaking of ordinary wine and food, NOT His consecrated Body and Blood. He would not speak of consuming His body and Blood AGAIN, since He did not consume it at all. The Apostles did.

"I just see all religions as being a split"

A: Then you deny Christ, Who founded ONE unsplit Church, said that the Holy Spirit would lead that ONE Church to all truth, and said that He would be with that ONE Church until the end of time. Splits involve renunciation of doctrinal truth. Therefore churches which have formed through splits from the original Church cannot claim the presence of all truth, as promised by Christ. That promise was made to one Church only - the Church He founded, not any other churches which later split with that One True Church. And History plainly shows us that the Church He founded for all men is the Holy Catholic Church. There was no other on earth until the 11th century.

"The original church eventually split into eastern and western...the official split (Schism) occuring in like 1000 A.D. or so?"

A: No, it did not. The original Church still exists today, and is not split. It still has Eastern and Western components, all under the UNIFIED headship of the Pope. What happened in the 11th century is that the Orthodox Churches split FROM the Holy Catholic Church founded by Christ. However, the Catholic Church continued to exist in unity after the Orthodox fell away, just as it had existed since Christ founded it, and just as it will exist until the end of time.

"Then from there., the western (Roman) half splits again at the time of Luther and the Reformation."

A: Wrong again. The Catholic Church did not split at the time of the Protestant Rebellion. The Protestants simply left the True Church and founded their own. But the Church Christ founded continued to exist and grow and teach the fullness of Christian truth, as unified as ever.

"Today--we have Eastern Orthodox churches..Anglican., we have Roman Catholicism and a number of Protestant denominations. Who is to say where the truth lies?"

A: Je4sus said where the truth lies - in the One True Church He personally founded for all men. Any honest person can establish from history that the Catholic Church is the only Church that can trace its history back to Christ and the Apostles.

"I think the truth is that there are true believers inside all of these denominations"

A: In denominations there are true believers in that portion of the truth which that particular denomination has not rejected. However, true believers in the fullness of Christian truth can exist only where the fullness of Christian truth exists; and the fullness of Christian truth exists only where Christ placed it - in the Church He founded, the Holy Catholic Church.

"We are universal in that we can be found all over the world, and we are not divided"

A: Really? So Presbyterians are actually Baptists? And Anglicans are actually the same as Assemblies of God? And there are no significant divisions between Lutherans and Methodists? Christ's own Church is universal. It is found in every country on earth, and teaches the same truth by the same authority in every one of those places. But the history of denominational religion is a history of division, fragmentation, confusion, contradiction, and doctrinal chaos. Unity has been destroyed. And Unity is the mark by which Christ said we would recognize His Own Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

How does one put something invisible on a lamp stand for everyone to see?

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

"How does one put something invisible on a lamp stand for everyone to see?"

Good point.

-- (emerald1@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

Christ certainly knows who His own are. The four absolute marks of His Church; --not sects and/or denominations, His Own:

The Church must be ONE.
The Church must be HOLY.
She must be CATHOLIC, or ''universal''.
She must be APOSTOLIC, from the Apostles.

Christ's Church --given us in the Bible, and authentically that one in Acts, & the holy epistles, and recorded history;

Must visibly show these FOUR marks; all of them. Or it isn't the real Church. No sectarian Christian Church is ONE; it is one among thousands.

None is holy in the aggregate.

Certainly there is nothing Catholic; universal in any Christian faith outside the Catholic Church. Ordinarily, each one fends for itself, and is autonomous in its locality. Not over all the world, even in the least.

Most important; there are no churches known to be directly in line from the holy apostles; they are none of them APOSTOLIC. Some claim to be this; but without a direct link to the first Popes, they can't sustain even the appearance. They're offshoots at most, with no leadership or authority from the twelve apostles; thus from Jesus Christ. The sole apostolic Church in the world; actually and historically, is the Catholic Church. In her is made up the Mystical Body of Christ. Not at large, within some wandering population of lost sheep. Sorry, ''Faith''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 19, 2003.

"So how can you be sure that it wasn't the true believers who walked away from an apostate church government that was slowly developing in Rome, and they then continued in the true faith as Jesus really meant it to be, raising new and better churches in the spirit of the original apostles?"

1. Because Jesus Himself promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against the One True Church He personally founded. Surely the apostacy of His Church would therefore make Him a liar.

2. Because Jesus Himself promised that His Church - the one He founded, and no other, would be protected from error in its teaching.

3. Because Jesus Himself gave the keys to the kingdom to the earthly head of ONE Church - the one He founded, no other.

4. Because Jesus promised that He would be with His Church - the one He founded, no other - until the end of time.

5. Because The Catholic Church today maintains all of the doctrinal truth, all of the sacraments, all of the essential elements of the Church of the Apostles. Manmade churches have rejected much of original Christianity, and introduced doctrines and practices which Jesus and the Apostles never dreamed of.

6. Because Jesus predicted the split of denominational religion, and condemned it (2 Pet 2:1; 2 Tim 4:3)

7. Because the doctrinal chaos that has developed among those who did leave the True Church is the exact opposite of what Jesus desired for His Church (Father, that they all may be ONE), and therefore cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit.

8. Because the unity He described as the sign of His Church still continues to be found in one place on earth - the Church He founded, the Holy Catholic Church.

9. Because the idea that men could raise "better churches" than the Son of God is absurd at best, blasphemous at worst.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

Here we go with the "devil" stuff, again. Why.....why do fundamentalists always go calling on "Satan"? This is the stuff that really puts me off. The moment a believer enters the Catholic Church, he/she dips the finger in Holy Water and makes the Sign of the Cross. I was taught that this was a form of "exorcism" of sorts denying Satan. Now, how is this doctrine associated with the works of the devil???

Do you actually believe that the devil has had a hand in the split, or are you asking a simple question, Faith?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

In Scriptures, Jesus and the Apostles see a stranger doing works in the name of God. The Apostle gets very concerned and asks if he should go over and put a stop to the stranger's works. Jesus told them to leave him alone.

As I stand in the doorway of the Church, I can't make a judgement about the two. I've read that both are acceptable under specific conditions.

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

I assume you were talking about the Traditional vs. Norvus Ordo.

rod...

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 19, 2003.

"I think the problem lies in just who the original church was"

A: There is no problem in this matter, except for people who want to find a problem. The historical facts are there, plain as day. There was no Christian Church on this planet except the Holy Catholic Church for 1,000 years after Christ. Case closed.

"I agree that Christ's true church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. I just don't think that it is Roman"

A: Well that's quite an admission by a Protestant. I'll concede a certain measure of holiness to Protestantism, based on their sense of morality, and the fact that they all adhere to many Catholic doctrinal truths. Otherwise there is no way they could be called Christian. But Protestantism is obviously not "One" - it is the very antithesis of unity, fragmenting more and more every week as new denominations rise and fall. It is certainly not "catholic", which means universal. Most of its sects are restricted to certain, often very small, geographic areas. Some of them are quite restrictive about who may join their congregations, and some are downright racist. And no Protestant church is apostolic. Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Wesley, and the many other founders of the various sects were not apostles. And these churches clearly do not teach what the apostles taught, because they do not teach what one another teaches. Conflicting doctrines cannot be apostolic. Or true.

"Also., even the Roman Catholic Church is split. What do you think of the Traditional Catholic Church who trash everything about Vatican II? They call the church since Vatican II the Novus Ordo and they say it is the work of the devil"

A: Who cares what they say? A split in a church doesn't mean that a handful of members are misguided. It means that the overall authority of the Church is divided. The Catholic Church has one Pope, one Magisterium, and one set of official doctrinal beliefs - therefore unity. The fact that a few people who call themselves Catholic reject some of its teachings, or even the authority of its Pope doesn't cause a split in the Church. It simply causes personal separation of those individuals from the Church, which still remains strong, pure and united. A few people jumping off the ship really doesn't affect the nature or the progress of ship toward its destination, but it has a great effect on the people who jump. They get left behind.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

It's the norm non-Catholics won't concede that Jesus Christ's true Church could be visible and have a visible beginning, a visible head.

If they ever conceded, it would only be a step to conceding they can't have unity outside her.

Christ called us His flock; and the One Shepherd was Himself. On earth, a visible Church was headed by one Pastor, the guardian of His sheep. (John 21, :15 through :17). It's seen in the gospels Peter had charge of feeding Christ's lambs. Who feeds the ''invisible'' scattered and anonymous flock you call a ''body of believers?'' NOBODY-- all are independent of a Pastor. You yourself say all religions are off the mark.

Well, many truly are off the mark. They have NO POPE! There is no central authority, or Pastor. This was never predicted for His Church, by Jesus Christ. He made Himself clear; the Church is His sheepfold. And He only founded ONE.

In order for your notion of this anonymous, Bible-reared ''body of believers'' to exist, Christ's Church must not be visible.

Except, she is very visible. Her teachings are Holy, her spread is universal, her origin Apostolic, and she is the only ONE since the days of the apostles. Nothing very invisible. She is truly the only '' Body of believers''; of whom I'm one. A Catholic believer.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 19, 2003.

Eugene , I left catholicism for good ,'cause I disagree with the rcc !! __ And also religion is not my way of life , that's my good right , and also , that doesn't mean I'm / make me evil or bad !!!!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 19, 2003.

Biblical doctrines, correctly interpreted, are Catholic doctrines. The doctrines existed in the Church first. That's why members of the Church wrote them down. And that's why the Catholic Church allowed them into its Bible when it was being compiled. the Church didn't get any doctrines from the Bible. It put them into the Bible.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 19, 2003.

Yes, Faith, The gospels reveal that all believers are disciples of Christ. Believers in all Catholic doctrine and in His Holy Church. Not believers in whatever pipe-dream they concoct from private readings of the Bible.

''The Bible also instructs us as to how a church should function ? Do you mean drop into invisibility? Idolize the Bible?

Could you show us one verse where Christ instructed us to read a Bible? Show one verse in which Bible study is a practice of His Church? Or what a private citizen and the Bible without the Church have to do with salvation? Please materialise some of these concoctions of yours. Let's give you the chance, and we'll see?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 19, 2003.

Has Faith found a better forum for her problem?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 20, 2003.

Here is the opening post of this thread:

As a non-Catholic Christian, I have a few questions about the conversion process. First off, if you know that you are going to become a Catholic but have not been formally received into the Church, can you still pray the Rosary, bless yourself with the Holy Water at a Catholic church, and call yourself a Catholic? I know that a non-Catholic cannot partake in the Eucharist, and this has caused some confusion for me. Thank you in advance for your replies.
-- Lauren (lauren2035@yahoo.com), October 18, 2003

Poor Lauren got only one substantive reply to her good message. I want to apologize to her for the fact that this thread was permitted to be hijacked by an anti-Catholic debater.

Lauren, were you fully answered? Do you want to follow up or ask any additional questions? Maybe we can talk to YOU on the rest of this thread.

-- (Caring@About.Lauren), October 20, 2003.

Yes-- a Proclamation by the apostles and their disciples, personally, Faith. Not Bible study. Not a written page of scripture which didn't come from the Old Testament. Even Christ Himself quoted from the OT-- Yet in the sermon on the Mt; He never said, ''Blessed are ye Bible students.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 20, 2003.

Well, I never thought that my questions would generate this much response and debate! But to get right down to it, yes, I am walking with the Lord, and that is precisely why I think that He is calling me to the Catholic Church. I, like others on this board, was raised in a devout Protestant household and have always tried to live a Christian life. However, the more I read of the Bible and learn about the true beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church (not the stereotypes that are so abundant, mind you, but the actual beliefs that are stated in the Catechism and other works), the more I feel that there are major gaps in the theology and logic of Protestant teachings. I now feel that the Catholic Church is the one true church that Christ intended and that is why I originally posted, regarding the conversion process. For those of you who do not share my beliefs, please do not be so quick to judge. With an open heart and eyes trained on God, it is amazing what He can do with one's life...one day you may too find yourself wondering about the conversion process to Catholicism!

-- Lauren (lauren2035@yahoo.com), October 20, 2003.

Excellent, Lauren!
You are just what a convert always ought to be, in love with God. Not just in love with the Good News; taken with scarce love for doctrines.

We must be willing to be taught what the apostles gave us; without scrambling their message. Only in the Catholic faith are we receiving the full Gospel with no sugar-coating. We respond first to God's grace. Everything else will be added if He is obeyed from your heart.

If we do not love God with all our hearts & minds; over all things; we have no religion. His doctrine in the Church is all directed to LOVE for His divine Son Jesus Christ, His saints and angels; and the needs of our neighbor. To reject Christ's doctrine is to reject His love. Many who call themselves Christians want no part of the doctrines of Christ's Church. They renounce His Church and her guidance. Instead, they wish to study the Bible only; like loving your wedding ring, and rejecting your husband.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 20, 2003.

Yeah right - the Word of God condemns the Church of God. The Word of God condemns the Church which the Son of God promised to be with until the end of time. Maybe He lied? Or maybe He really hoped to be with His Church until the end of time, but just couldn't pull it off? It's interesting too that this same Church, in compiling a book of its inspired writings, chose to include writings which condemned itself. Well, I don't expect more from those who try to interpret the Bible for themselves, especially when they are desperate to justify the origin of their own manmade religion, knowing that it originated in open rebellion against God's own Church. Sad.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 20, 2003.

Lauren can see the cloven hoof where Faith steps, Paul; just as we all can. Thank God we can see the truth when we read a Bible; where this poor soul gathers thorns, only to presume as ''raised in a devout Catholic home, and God called me out of that religion and into a relationship with His Son, and my life has completely changed.''

Must not have been such a devout home.

When you hear somebody state, ''God called me out of that [Catholic] religion,'' usually you read, ''I insisted on a divorce.'' Or, ''--birth control or abortion rights.'' About 75% is divorce. (Are you divorced, Faith?) It's inconvenient to be a Catholic and obey God's commandments.

''Faith'' had no faith; and she tries here to shake another soul's faith. Why hasn't God ''called ALL Catholics out'' of THAT religion? He certainly changed MY life, without calling me out! How about you, Frank? Or Paul, Joe; -- Just ''faith''-- nobody but??? Haha!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 20, 2003.

Faith, you have exposed a fine example of the Protestant Propaganda that has tricked many people into hating the Catholic Church. It has been used on me and they did quite a number on me. I have been fortunate to pull my head out of such chaos and have grown to understand the Church for what it really is--the Truth. Yes, I've been a "heretic", but things are changing.

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2003.

How wonderful it was to read your reply, Lauren, and Eugene's appreciation of your reply. Two great messages in a row! The poor soul of Faith, who is in so very lost in the woods, badly needed to read what you both had to say -- even if she can't yet admit it.

Faith protested, "The Assumption of Mary cannot be found in the Bible, nor can the Immaculate Conception. Purgatory is missing from the Bible as is infant Baptism...just to name a few."
By now, Lauren, you realize that religious truth is not confined to the pages of the Bible -- and the Bible itself teaches this very truth.

Faith protested, "Catholic's think they have to *work* their way to heaven, yet the Bible says that our works as as filthy rags before an holy God and that only God is good."
By now, Lauren, you realize that Catholics do NOT think "they have to *work* their way to heaven." As you said, you "learn about the true beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church (not the stereotypes that are so abundant, mind you, but the actual beliefs that are stated in the Catechism and other works)." Sadly, Faith is still all hung up on those false "stereotypes" that you mentioned.

Faith protested, "So far--and I have spent a lot of time researching the religion.., no one can show me why I should take the word of men, over the Word of God."
By now, Lauren, you know that the Church never puts "the word of men over the Word of God." Nor does the Church misuse the word of God, which is something Faith did in her sickening, Jack-Chick-like misinterpretation of that passage from Rev. 18.

Faith protested that, without conciliar canonization, "the Bible's content was already in circulation and all that any council ever did was ratify books that were already accepted."
But by now, Lauren, you have probably studied enough history to know that Faith is completely wrong, and that the early bishops, aided by the Holy Spirit, had to discard scores of non-inspired books written in the Christian and pre-Christian ages, books that were wrongly considered inspired by one or more local churches or leaders.

Let us pray for poor Faith, so that she may return to the Church of her youth -- rather than lose her soul forever.

-- (Caring@About.Lauren), October 20, 2003.

Hi Faith.

If you have a chance, you may have a look at the other forum where I have posted a link about all of those "other gospels". When you read through those other books, you will begin to understand the tremendous job the Church did in providing the true Bible the world has today.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2003.

We hope in God, ''Faith so-called''. With Him, Lauren's conversion is secure and I can't add anything. She loves God.

If we have to coerce somebody, the conversion isn't even possible. God expects us to enter the faith freely. No one is made to fall into the Catholic Church. Some unfortunates like yourself fall OUT. The devil never rests, and I guess you needed the divorce. Church or no Church?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 20, 2003.

"But in fact, the Bible's content was already in circulation and all that any council ever did was ratify books that were already accepted. The books they rejected--were already rejected. Christians knew by the guidance of the Holy Spirit--which books were inspired and which were not!"

A: This is total fantasy. The situation concerning the use of New Testament Age writings was chaotic - so much so that the Church had to convene two Councils within five years to try and make some sense out of the mess. There were some texts that were universally used, such as the gospels of Matthew and John, and most of Paul's letters. However, some local churches used texts which other local churches rejected. Many local churches were using texts which did not end up in the Canon, and others were rejecting texts which did end up in the Canon. No Christian knows ANYTHING about the Bible except through the Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 20, 2003.

Protestants are gonna have to get down to the nitty-gritty of their faith. I think that deep inside of every Protestant there lies a fear. When they do their homework in studying the history of the Bible, they may very well discover that Protestants are all displaced Catholics. They are gonna have to accept the fact that their faith system was once Catholic, but through the errant beliefs of their Protestant fore-fathers, their beliefs are confused. Those pilgrims set a precedant. They taught Americans to question authority and not to take things at face value. Perhaps that was a good thing, but it also allowed Christians to question their doctrine and gave them the freedom to make their own doctrine. I wonder if Protestants are basically living a conformed lifestyle of pragmatism that has spilled over into their Christian faith. I keep hearing this, "Keep it simple", about doctrine and faith. In other words, don't think too much about it, which inevitable turns into reject this or that or it is pure symbolism--pragmatism.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 21, 2003.

faith,

you said Even today--with the stamp of approval, still some insist that other Scriptures were valid.

youre quite right. some other scriptures ARE indeed still valid, and they are still used. HOWEVER, they were deemed at the time by the council to be too redundant, or not as all encompassing as the other scriptures. many valid scriptures were left out for just this reason, but that does not make them invalid.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 21, 2003.

"I know that the council did happen and that they did put their stamp of approval on to those books which were already being widely anyway."

A: As I already explained, the Holy Spirit put His "stamp of approval" BOTH on books which were generally used AND on books which were widely disputed. Likewise He withheld His "stamp" from BOTH books that were widely used, AND books that were widely disputed. God alone knew which writings were to be included in the Bible, and He revealed this information ONLY to the gathered leaders of His Holy Catholic Church.

"My point is that God oversaw the coming together of His Word--and the books were understood already"

A: Understood?? They couldn't even agree on which writings were scriptural and which were not! How could they possibly hope to understand the deep meanings of the texts??

"Surely you don't think that without some council, we wouldn't have God's Word--do you?"

A: Without the Councils, the Catholic Church would still have the fullness of God's Word, which it had received from the lips of Jesus Christ and the teaching of the Apostles. But we would not have the Bible - which means Protestantism would not exist.

"Even today--with the stamp of approval, still some insist that other Scriptures were valid"

A: So what? Some also insist that the Trinity doesn't exist, that the Eucharist is a symbolic gesture, and that the miracles of Jesus were symbolic stories. Misguided individuals relying on their personal interpretations make unauthoritative statements about many different aspects of Christianity. All this demonstrates is how essential the guidance of the Church is, for anyone who is interested in truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 21, 2003.

Well, you are simply off the map.

Christ never said all Christians are give authority. Period; He stated we must appeal to His Church: ''But if he refuse to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.'' (Matt 18:17).

You said, ''None of the original Church ever referred to themselves as Roman-- ''OK; In the epistle to the Romans, the Church is already in Rome. (Rom,1 :7-8). Besides, we aren't ''Roman Catholics'' at all. --We are the Holy Catholic Church, the only universal Church.

''The way that Jesus keeps His true church undivided is that we are a spiritual "Body" of believers.'' --Except YOU aren't even a believer! Believers do not reject almost half the revelation of the Son of God; particularly His apostolic Church. Believers have the sacraments and every grace Jesus Christ entrusted to His everlasting Church.

Believers do not invent how they belong to a ''spiritual body'' without entering His Church first. There is no Church except the Catholic Church. No faith is from the apostles except the Catholic faith. You are an opponent of the apostles. You have no knowledge of the true Gospel. Therefore, you are OUTSIDE the spiritual Body of Christ; and you only IMAGINE you are a true believer.

But you've come to the right place. This is where you'll learn everything, once you come off your high horse. FAITH is to be found here. Come to it!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 22, 2003.

Yes, I know that you will say that a person will know the true path to take in the Gospels. The truth would have eventually made itself obvious. Not if you adhere to "Sola Scriptura" and even then you would still have needed the Catholic Church for such a false doctrine to even exist--Protestantism (Paul M said it better). Gosh! I would love to take a Protestant back in time to see which of the doctrines/gospels he would have believed in. There were more than tons(figurative) of scriptures available. If we think that the 30,000 some odd doctrines are a big deal today, imagine the infancy of Christianity--the number was smaller, but the confusion was just as proportionate. When a fundamentalist-protestant Bible reader interprets Scriptures, who is there ta make sure that the interpretations conform to the "church" doctrines? Elders, yes? How are Elders different from any other institution that has interpreters or keepers of the faith? Or, is it a free for all and let the strongest voice win? Your ultimate response should end with, "God's voice through the Bible is final". Well, of course, but have a look around and tell me how the fantastic splintering of His Word is the final voice. Your child's prime teacher is you as a father or mother. The child depends on his parent(s) and the ladder of education must follow up to a higher authority. Every denomination, church, sect, whatever you call it, has that ladder of leadership in the Gospel. It just so happens that a 2000 year old Church has a far more advanced structured "ladder".

I had to get that out, sorry.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2003.

...and we all know Who structured that "ladder", Jesus Christ!

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2003.

"I believe that all Christians are give authority by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--to understand God's Word as He has revealed it to us. "

You are wrong. Jesus gave that promise to the Church He founded, not to manmade churches which came into existence 1,500 years later. Any promises made to "Christians" were made to "Catholics" because during Apostolic times, and for the next 1,000 years, Catholics were the ONLY Christians - and that is how Jesus intended it to remain. Think! If all Christians could understand the Bible simply by reading it, how could we have hundreds of conflicting Christian churches, each of which understands scripture DIFFERENTLY??

"Jesus doesn't say anything about needing the Roman Catholic institution"

A: The "Roman Catholic Institution" you refer to is what the Bible calls "The Church", and Jesus makes it very clear that we do indeed need the Church, for it is in the Church that both His authority and the fullness of Christian truth reside.

"Roman Catholicism isn't necessarily the continued church of the original apostles just because you say it is."

A: Well, obviously. But it is the Church of the Apostles because history clearly demonstrates that it is. To know history is to reject Protestantism. Or, to put it the other way, to follow Protestantism an any of its thousands of contradictory forms, is to reject history.

"None of the original church ever refered to themselves as Roman--not by any stretch of the imagination."

A: The original Church STILL doesn't refer to itself as "Roman". The correct name of the original Church is the Holy Catholic Church, and HISTORY reveals that it was calling itself that before the end of the first century. "Roman" is a derogatory term applied to the true Church by Protestants who have abandoned it.

"Satan has been dividing Christ's church since its beginings, and he will continue to do so until the end"

A: No, he has not and he cannot, for Christ guaranteed that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. He also guaranteed that He would be with His Church until the end of time, and He cannot be divided. He also guaranteed that His Church would teach the fullness of truth, and a doctrinally divided Church cannot do so. Satan cannot divide Christ or His Church. He can only tempt people to reject Christ and His Church, and walk away from it. In that effort he has succeeded quite well. But the Church such poor souls have walked away from remains undivided, strong, and true.

"But Jesus promised that His Body cannot be divided"

A: Right! That's what I just said! And therefore, no tradition that IS divided into conflicting denominations can be considered His Body.

"Therefore, no earthly religion or institution can possibly be the true church, because they are all divisions of the original church"

A: A Church is for the benefit of those on earth. Therefore it must be "earthly" in location. However, the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ is divine in origin, divine in authority, and has Christ as its head until the end of time. In these essential ways, while it is earthly in location, it is a divine institution, not an earthly one. No other church can make such a claim. Denominations are clearly human in origin, and possess no authority other that that which they claim for themselves, or which has been granted to them by a particular manmade organization like United Baptist Churches of America.

"The way that Jesus keeps His true church undivided is that we are a spiritual "Body" of believers--that also have a very visable impact on this world"

A: Your definition is incomplete. Being "believers" isn't enough. Everyone believes in something. What keeps the TRUE Church of Jesus Christ undivided is consistent teaching backed up by divine authority, which results in a spiritual body of believers IN THE TRUTH - not in unauthoritative private interpretations of scripture.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2003.

When Christ says church; has He some other, different church than the one He founded himself? No-- so; if He said CHURCH, He meant HIS Church. If He'd wanted to say, ''Believers'', that's what He would've said.

We capitalize because the Church is HOLY. One Holy, Catholic & Apostolic. Christ didn't found ''churches''; only the One Church.

So far all your objections have been too naive to be taken seriously.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 22, 2003.

Eugene,

Mas y mas mis pensimientos son Catolicos. Y me duele que me retire de la Iglesia.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 22, 2003.

"Jesus Christ founded a universal church of believers"

A: YES!! Which means a SINGLE BODY, UNITED in COMMON BELIEF, in all places and at all times. A description which is fulfilled only in the Holy Catholic Church. A description which is as far removed from protestantism as any description could be.

"It is not a religious institution"

A: That's right. It is not. But Protestant sects obviously ARE religious institutions, founded by men, on human authority, often incorporated, run by boards of directors. Except of course for "independent" Protestant churches, which are run on no authority at all beyond that of the pastor, who is hired and fired by the congregation. Show me any of that in scripture.

"It is not a building"

A: Well now, no kidding! Did someone suggest otherwise?

"And it has no location here on earth"

A: That's correct. It is universal, not defined by any specific location. It extends to all corners of the earth, and throughout every century. What Protestant sect can make such claims?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2003.

Hi LAUREN,

Welcome to the Holy Catholic Church!

I thank God for your OBEDIENCE. The Beauty of the Holy Catholic Church is in the Obedience of her members to the Pope and the Magisterium. Obedience unites us as ONE.

God's Grace is upon you for He called you INTO the Fullness of The Truth and the Fullness of the Means of Salvation.

The Holy Catholic Church is Noah's Ark ~ You are INSIDE the Ark ~ Outside is the Great Flood.

Remain with us.

You have an exciting journey ahead of you ~ the Catholic life is never boring.

May God always bless you, keep you, protect you, heal you, surround you, and have mercy upon you. May your family members also join The One True Church, our Church, The Holy Catholic Church. In the Name of Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Peace be with you.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 22, 2003.

Faith,

You need to follow the Good Example Lauren is setting before you. While she had to search for The Fullness of the Truth, you were given The Fullness of the Truth on a silver platter as a Catholic child.

Remember Humility?

What happened to you that you have become such a Staunch Enemy of the Holy Catholic Church? You have learned to detest her so much. Have you forgotten the Love of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Have you forgotten the foster-Fatherhood of St. Joseph? Have you forgotten the Examples of all the Saints? Have you forgotten the Holy Sacraments?

Come to your senses, Faith.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 22, 2003.

You say: "The true church of Jesus Christ is invisible--it is spiritual"

A: I wonder then how a person might find it?? Can you find an angel, who is invisible and spiritual? I can't, even though they are all around us. How would I find an invisible Church?

The Bible tells us: "For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it" (Galatians 1:13))

How did Saul do that, if the Church was invisible?

The Bible tells us: "Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers" (Acts 13:1)

How would visible prophets and teachers minister to an invisible Church?

The Bible tells us: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector"

How would I report something to a Church that is invisible? To what invisible authorities would I deliver this message?

The Bible tells us: "God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues" (1 Corinthians 12:28)

How would it be possible for all of this extremely visible structure and activity to be part of an invisible Church?

The Bible says: "As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; and our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ" (2 Corinthians 8:23)

Can an invisible Church send forth visible missionaries (messengers)?

The Bible tells us: "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James 5:14)

Just how would one go about contacting the elders of an invisible Church?

The Bible describes the Church in this way: "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house" (Matthew 5:14-15)

Does that sound like a description of something invisible??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2003.

She has no Church; Faith is hoping against hope somewhere in space (invisible) there's a church she can attach herself to. That's how come she hopes a ''spiritual'' church is Christ's own Church. To her, there is no real Church; there is no real Body or real Christ. It's all only ''spiritual''. That way, Faith can deny the real Church. It bothers her. A real, visible Church bothers Faith.

You have to obey the real Church; and faith can't.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 22, 2003.

Here is an interesting email address:

faith@HisWay.com

. . .

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 23, 2003.

All the Catholic Church has done over two millennia is evangelise 9-10ths of the known world; bringing the faith of the apostles to trillions of souls. The TRUE faith, ''Faith''. Not the ersatz faith you cling to, hanging over the abyss.

Look in the history of the world: Wisdom: Thousands of great thinkers. Doctors, philosophers, scientists, holy men, holy women, martyrs, teachers, leaders, explorers, -- Catholics; faithful to Jesus Christ!

Education All the western world's great centers of education and study: The Sorbonne, Oxford and Cambridge, Salamanca, Alcala de Henares, many more in the Americas, the hemisphere. ALL founded by the CATHOLIC CHURCH!

Hospitals by the THOUSANDS, ''Faith''. Built, supported and staffed by the Catholic Church, Catholic religious and priests; also orphanages and poorhouses everywhere in the world.

Great saints all over the globe, Faith. Not INVISIBLE members of Christ's Mystical Body; living saints; Fr. Damien of Mollokai, who served the lepers for the love of Christ. Mother Theresa of Calcutta, just beatified by Christ's Vicar on earth this week. What good is a Church without real, loving saints and martyrs? Is that your idea of Christ's Body? A Bible- reading Body, with nothing to do around the world?

I guess you're easily satisfied. Come to the Catholic Church and see the True Body of Christ close up. Don't be afraid; no one will eat you there! Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 23, 2003.

''. . . all these things were founded by Christians.., and yes, some were Catholic,''

Ha! Ha-haha! ''Founded by ''Christians!''

You sound a bit pathetic, ''Faith''. All were CATHOLIC Christians at the times of their founding. No so called ''christians'' had squat to do with the Catholic transformation of our world; even as we speak more Catholics are doing God's work than any other Christian assembly or sects. I suppose you expect us to think Henry VIII built Cambridge? Did a protestant build Boy's Town? Discover Radium? How many hospitals in Calcutta has a Methodist built; or your own pastor? Mother theresa built scores of them, and she was a little old NUN! A Catholic! Cervantes a Catholic, Dante was a Catholic, Michelangelo and Columbus were Catholics!

Here we have you, saying the ''invisible church'' will shine by her fruits! YEAH! --Invisible fruits. On the invisible mountain-top! --Please, Faith; out!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 23, 2003.

No, "Faith,"

You are really not interested in the Truth.

You are simply here for an argument.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 23, 2003.

Mad? I'm not so sure that is the feeling I get. How about the feeling of anxiety? I know that any question that seems like the final nail can be answered with the truth. Catholicism has answered every question with strong logic and biblical evidence.

How do you feel, Faith? I'm sure that you may feel secure in your faith system, but don't you have a feeling of doubt about your answers compared to the Catholic answers? Could that doubt be telling you something?

You are free.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 23, 2003.

Nah, you just get a kick out of it.

Too bad your soul is at stake.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 23, 2003.