THE MASONS AND THE JEWS The United States of America is the most Masonic country in the world. Three and a half million Masons, more than 75 per cent of the world’s total, live here.

American Catholics persist in regarding these Masons who surround them as nothing more than a bunch of harmless, fun-loving fellows, who like to sponsor football games to aid aged widows. Yet, in all the history of the Church, there is no organization that the Popes have condemned so insistently, urgently, and severely as Freemasonry. It has been anathematized seventeen different times, and has in some way been warned against by almost every Pope of the last two centuries.

-- Curious (emblem23@yahoo.com), October 24, 2003

Answers

American Catholics persist in regarding these Masons who surround them as nothing more than a bunch of harmless, fun-loving fellows, who like to sponsor football games to aid aged widows.

I do not think they are harmless. This attitude may be an outgrowth of recent liberalism. Perhaps this lazy attitude about our proximity to false religion will one day knock Americans senseless when it comes back to bite them and then they will cling even more to that true faith of Mother Roman Catholic Church out of fear of being sucked back into the oblivion.

Freemasonry is a secret society with secret rules and thus is not in the spirit of Catholicism, which preaches that all is to be revealed by the light. Secret spirituality is akin to Gnosticism. Today the freemasons are in the group of occult and New Age religions. The Catholic Encyclopedia has an entry about freemasons here> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm#III

The church forbids membership in the masons here>

QUOTE

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

NOTE: The following is the most recent decree from the Vatican on the subject of Freemasonry and is thus is the most current statement of the Church's law on this topic…

Issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on November 26, 1983.

"It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church's decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance is due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 [1981] pp. 240-241)."

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.

JOSEPH Card. RATZINGER Prefect

+ Fr. JEROME HAMER, O.P. Titular Archbishop of Lorium Secretary

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 25, 2003.

One can not serve God and in a Masonlic Lodge declare that there is a "universal god". This would KNOWINGLY place any religion on par with the belief in God.

Clearly a violation of the First Commandment.

Masons will say that all they do is allegorical. There are a ton of material on the net.

The late Albert Pike is considered a renowned masonic writer.

Read what he wrote and make an informed decision on Freemasonry from there.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 25, 2003.

I'm sorry, the way I worded the last post may be confusing.

Albert Pike's writings should scare a Christian completely away from Freemasonry.

God bless.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 25, 2003.

It is interesting that our country was founded by (primarily) Masons and that many of the presidents have been Masons. Both Bush Sr. and Jr. are Masons.

I once met a 33-rd degree Mason. He was Catholic, from Hungary. He had no idea that the Masonic Order has always been condemned by the Catholic Church, or all the scary things about it which go against the beliefs of Catholicism. He was flabergasted.

Hm, I think one of my great-grandfathers was a Mason, too, and also Catholic. Lots of Catholics apparently don't know it's a condemned society.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), October 25, 2003.

Both Bush Sr. and Jr. are Masons

This is B.S., as can be determined by visiting reputable sites on the Internet. Various fringe wacko sites claim all kinds of goofy and phony memberships for the Bushes and others.

But for the facts, see these detailed lists of Masonic Presidents and Vice-Presidents of the U.S.A..

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), October 25, 2003.

If anyone really wants to understand the problems in the Church today; if anyone wants to see the whole scene as God sees it, then read the Papal excyclicals on Freemasonry, especially:

this one,

THIS one,

this one,

this one, and

this one.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), October 26, 2003.

No one gets to be a 33rd degree Mason, and still remain ignorant. It is ignorant to believe that. Who knows who the real whacko is. there can be suckers on both sides of the fence. Still looking for WMD's?

-- Expectorator III (Brassspittoon@saloon.com), October 27, 2003.

*turning the other cheek*

Hmmm, seems like I end up turning the other cheek quite often on this forum . . .

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), October 27, 2003.

Millard Fillmore (1800-1874) Read the lyrics to Swath's as-yet-unreleased song, Millard Fillmore. Education and Occupations: Education: Fillmore received little formal education early in life. Only in 1817, when a circulating library was established in his town, did Fillmore realize how little he really knew. In 1818, Fillmore enrolled at an academy in the town of New Hope, New York, where he was working in a cloth mill. Fillmore studied law in the offices of County Judge Walter Wood from 1819-1821. During the next two years, he studied law in his spare time at the office of Asa Rice and Joseph Clary. He was admitted to the bar in 1823. Occupations: Fillmore ran a law practice in East Aroura, New York from 1823-1828. During this time, he became active in politics as an Anti-Mason, supporting John Quincy Adams in the 1824 election. Elected to three consecutive terms as an Anti-Mason from the Erie County district, Fillmore served on the New York State Assembly from 1829-1831. From 1833-1835 and 1837-1843, Fillmore acted as a U.S. Representative from New York. During his terms, he helped initiate the Whig party in western New York, opposed President Van Buren's Independent Treasury system, and attempted, unsuccessfully, to prevent a split between congressional whigs and President Tyler. Also, as chairman of the House Means and Ways committee, Fillmore drafted and urged the passage of the Tariff Act of 1842, and he supported the National Bankruptcy Act and a distribution of funds to the states from the sale of federal lands. Fillmore promoted a stable currency system, along with the expansion of the Erie Canal, as New York State Comptroller from 1848-1849.

One reason, this guy is still ridiculed to this very day. A real Anti-Mason And a one termer.. Too good an American.

-- Soapy (9999.@444.com), October 27, 2003.

WEll,,,this subject will never be deceided here.

Many God fearing men are and were Masons...Dr. MArtin Luther King Jr., Dr. Norman Vincent Peal and yes both Bush Sr. and Jr. are MAsons.

Note these men aren't of the CAtholic Faith...

I have met several Catholic men who are Mason's...

Rumor had it that early Pope's were Masons...go figure..

Sounds like a personal issue against Masons and Jews.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 27, 2003.

Rumor had it that early Pope's were Masons...go figure..

Since a rumor has no known authority for its truth, it would be better if you did not promote slander of this forum's religious leader even if he is not of your own faith.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 27, 2003.

The "early Popes"? How early? Freemasonry as we know it only dates back to the early 18th century. And why would any Pope pledge allegiance to a secret organization committed to undermining and overthrowing the Church?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 27, 2003.

Susan, I have to disagree with you. You have NEVER met any Catholic who is a Mason. If any Catholic joins the Masons he excommunicates himself from the Church. †

-- Jeff (jmajoris@optonline.net), October 27, 2003.

I know several Catholics who are masons.

In the late 70s (early 80s), there was a question as to whether a Catholic could be a mason, due to the change in language of the canon law, I believe, that prohibited it. (There is still a belief that the masons are harmless, especially in the United States.)

I was not a practicing Catholic at that time and became a mason. I never was active and actually only attended a few meetings. I saw nothing at that time that was a problem.

After returning to the Church, I began studying and discovered the theological problems with masonry and quit.

I joined the Knights of Columbus.

I hesitate to use Cardinal Bernard Law for any reason, but he did write a very good letter on freenasonry.

Here's a link: http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/cardinallaw.html

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 28, 2003.

Dear Folks, While checking to see how your chat group was dealing with the Terri Schiavo situation in Florida – my eye caught this conversation. I had always wondered what the difficulty was that the Vatican had with the Masons. While I am not a Mason (my grandfather was) I have never known of any official statement or policy from the Masons that was specifically targeted to disrupt the piety or worship of Roman Catholic Church as an institution or community – at least not in the last half century.

I have heard the complaint that Masons are against public tax money to be used in the support of private schools. You don’t have to be a Mason or a Protestant to hold that political position. It is not an attempt to hurt the Catholic community- it has to do with public tax money being used to promote or propagate private religious communities (my favorite example against public money to private schools are the private schools that got started in the South to subvert school desegregation – but that is another conversation.)

While the official Catholic documents cited in this thread express a great deal of enthusiasm for the Vatican’s position, there were no specific and documented examples to support the accusations (Although, I may have missed them). Without more information, the conspiracies charged against the Masons appear to be in the line of the DaVinci Code or Oliver Stone’s account of JFK’s assassination. Citing the bad behavior of individuals or groups of people who were Masons shouldn’t bring a negative evaluation of Masons on this chat group. Many of you have repeated time and again – the bad actions of individuals should not bring a negative judgment on an organization in which they belong, particularly if the individual is not living up to the organization’s stated purpose.

Citing dissatisfied people who have left the Masons has it peril as well. Dissidents or converts are not a good source of information regarding the work or beliefs of their former organization or religion. (Example: If I want to know about the Catholic religion, I will talk to Catholics who love their faith and can affirm their beliefs without demeaning the beliefs of others. Likewise, I would recommend that if you want to know about the various traditions of the Protestant experience – you talk to someone who loves and affirms their beliefs – without demeaning others.) In order to facilitate that level of discussion regarding Freemasons, I would encourage you to contact this web site: http://www.masonicinfo.com/. It is a well thought out site with both historical perspective and responses to specific events, such as the Morgan Affair and others raised by Freemasonrywatch.

Please note, I have not written this to change anyone’s mind about being a Mason. I agree that if you attempt to raise Masonic practice to theological doctrine (which Masons are instructed not to do) then there is a problem. Actually, I can see that there would be a sacramental problem for a Roman Catholic in regard to the conflict in the confidentiality pledged by Masonic members and the requirements of the confessional. But that is a Catholic to Catholic issue – not a Masons against the Holy Roman See and international world order issue.

On the humorous side, the following is a short list of organizations that have some of the same problems as the Masons… enjoy: Ø Boy Scouts of America – Deist tolerance (belief in higher power required but does not promote the Christian faith). Promotes a naturalist philosophy: the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Has secret (well not so secret) signs and greetings: the Scout sign, the Scout salute, and the infamous Scout handclasp. Ø The Constitution of the United States – Deist tolerance (1st Amendment) Ø The United States Congress – (Secret Meetings) Legal penalties for revealing information – although it seems to happen all the time. Ø The United States Military: (Demanding Ultimate Obedience) The Code of Military Conduct does allow for a soldier to decline an illegal order but he or she is not allowed to disobey a legal order on religious grounds – i.e. religious clothing or symbols that conflicts with the uniform, not working on the Sabbath, declining to engage in combat because the Pope (as with Iraq) spoke against the war, or declining to use a certain type of weapon because it violates a Just War Theory. Ø Publicly held companies (Secret Meetings) SEC regulations prevent certain forms of insider communication from closed executive meetings (see Martha Stewart). Ø The Order of Hibernians (Guilt by association) Members of the Molly Maguires (an over anxious group of miners in 19th Century Pennsylvania) were Irish. Ø The Knights of Columbus (Demonic or antisocial symbols) the fasces used in the KoC logo.

The fact of the matter is – none of the listed associations above should be taken seriously – I don’t. But, please do understand folks – from this side of the aisle, what has been written about the Masons has the same ring of unreality.

Penultimately – A moment of appreciation for the event of October 31, 1517 that sparks many of these conversations. This chat site provided me with research that helped me write one of my best Reformation Sunday sermons. Thanks!

Ultimately – I thought you would be interested to know that my congregation – at their request, included Pope John Paul II in our congregational prayers - congratulations for his 25th anniversary as Pope and for his future health. Our motivation? We have many neighbors and friends who are Catholic – and we pray for our friends and neighbors in their times of joy and concern.

I’ll see you the next time there is a news item that affects our respective communities.

Peace.

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), October 28, 2003.

Susan, I have to disagree with you. You have NEVER met any Catholic who is a Mason. If any Catholic joins the Masons he excommunicates himself from the Church. †

Actually since you don't know who I am I guess you can can never know who I know...

The man I am referring to was my neighbor for 20 years in West Seattle. He belonged to Alki Lodge of the Masons and he was also a Catholic belonging to Holy Rosary Catholic Church in West Seattle. His name was Grant Watkins. Sadly he died of brain tumor. He had a funeral Mass and I attended this service. Although I am not Catholic nor a Mason, he explained to me that he was very proud of his Masonic Membership and that his Priest allowed him to belong to the Masons. Becareful about who you tell that they " NEVER met a Catholic who was a Mason" you may be proven wrong.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 28, 2003.

Rumor had it that early Pope's were Masons...go figure.. Since a rumor has no known authority for its truth, it would be better if you did not promote slander of this forum's religious leader even if he is not of your own faith.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 27, 2003.

So what you are saying is that nobody has the right to state that they heard a rumor about this forums religious leader and that is slander...There are rumors about everything...and every church. They are rumors...Slander..hmmm now that is another subject.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 28, 2003.

In Europe, the masons were political organizations as well as fraternal. This is far less so in the U.S..

This does not diminish the THEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT against freemasonry.

The masons profess a "universal god" and accept every members personal interpretation of God.

So, you can't legitimately accept a "universal god" and at the same time accept God as truly God. It's in direct violation of the First Commandment. Period.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 28, 2003.

susan

I said that you were promoting slander. Slander is "the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation". Saying that there is a rumor that a past pope was a mason simply stirs the pot of falsehoods among those Protestants who read your post. It is encouraging malicious gossip to repeat what you said. You repeated gossip and it matters not whether you said it was gossip or not. Would you like someone to say to the public that they heard this or that vulgar rumor about your history? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 28, 2003.

susan I said that you were promoting slander. Slander is "the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation". Saying that there is a rumor that a past pope was a mason simply stirs the pot of falsehoods among those Protestants who read your post. It is encouraging malicious gossip to repeat what you said. You repeated gossip and it matters not whether you said it was gossip or not. Would you like someone to say to the public that they heard this or that vulgar rumor about your history? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Likewise.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 28, 2003.

Now...what do the Jews have to do with this topic...the inital posting has that in the first line.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 28, 2003.

"Be careful about who you tell that they " NEVER met a Catholic who was a Mason" you may be proven wrong"

Susan, That doesn't prove me wrong it just proves that this man had a wayward priest. If the priest tell you that you can ba a Mason and a Caholic at the same time he is lying to you. It has been very clearly stated that you are either a Catholic or a Mason, NOT both. The Masons are the enemies of the Church (just look at waht has happened to the Holy Mass!) and no one should associate themselves with them, since it carries the penalty of automatic excommunication from the Church, outside of which no one at all can be saved.

-- Jeff (jmajoris@optonline.net), October 28, 2003.

The fact remains that many of the early leaders of the US were Masons, so just for history's sake one should at least know about them as a group. I happened to visit the Masonic Museum in Alexandria, VA several years ago. Among other things there is world's largest oriental rug, a portrait of George Washington done in his later years, and a pair of his false teeth. If memory serves correctly there is also a replica of the Ark of the Covenant.

The Shriner hospitals for children are probably what most people know them for, as well as the football games Curious mentioned. I really doubt that members of the Masons sit around bashing the Catholic Church all the time.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 28, 2003.

Robert, the site you mentioned is very interesting, thank you for providing it. If secrecy is so bad, then every little kid who has a secret clubhouse in their backyard is in BIG trouble.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 28, 2003.

susan

You said Likewise.

I miss your point.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 29, 2003.

That is too bad.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 29, 2003.

Jeff all I wrote is that I knew of this nice man. Whether or not his Priest was wrong.. I don't know. Since I am not Catholic I won't make that judgment. If you say that he was mislead by a wayward Priest I will take you for your word.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 29, 2003.

Someone mentioned, "What do Jews hae to do with this". Everything! First reaction; "Bigot". Not so, just seeking truth.

The Masons started with the Pharisees in 47 A.D. Of course that was not their name at the time, but the seed was planted there.

Remember that Our Lord called them a generation of vipers, and they became His enemy, with great fervor , since then.

-- Joe (researcher@ seeking.com), October 29, 2003.

Ok...so Jews have everything to do with this.

Can you expand on the answer a little further please.

-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), October 29, 2003.

Susan; Try this. Who are among the biggest enemies of Christ, in this country?

The ACLU, that's who. Who are the ACLU? Overwhelmingly Jewish. Who is carrying on the fight against "Passion"? ACLU. and prayer in school, abortion, gays, Ten commandments, and on and on.

-- Joe (Researcher@seeking.com), October 29, 2003.

I hesitate to give Joe any response other than to say his hatred is a fairly clear indication of the condition of his soul – under both Catholic and Protestant traditions.

However, half-truths can be seductive. While I hold no brief for the ACLU, let us remember one thing clearly – the Constitution of the United States. It is the limitation upon the ACLU. More importantly, it is the limit upon the government of the United States as to how it can impose its power on its citizens.

When a judicial decision is rendered regarding civil rights it is the power of the government that is being limited. Any action of the government that requires something from the people is a coercive action.

It is a big mistake to view theses limitations placed upon local, state, and federal agencies, including public schools and courts as “keeping the people” from expressing their faith or religious beliefs. What they are doing is keeping the religious beliefs of the people from being co-opted for secular political power of the government.

In fact, the courts have recognized this limitation by their refusal to enter into proper and established ecclesiastical decisions or judgments. Disputes regarding, membership, property, beliefs, and even discipline are not reviewed by civil courts in the United States. And in the few times they were, higher courts generally overturned those decisions.

The only exception to this rule is if the lives of minors are endangered or criminal behavior is taking place. In fact, I believe some of the attempted actions of the State of Massachusetts regarding its review over choosing future Roman Catholic clergy and staff will be found unconstitutional – an action most likely supported by the ACLU.

Perhaps a better way of stating this case is by saying what the government cannot do to us individually and our religious communities: It cannot make us pray someone else’s prayer. It cannot make us believe (or follow) the religious revelation of someone else’s religion. It cannot make us celebrate someone else’s religious holiday. It cannot make us break our religious ethical standards (i.e., be forced to blaspheme, hate our parents, lie, murder, be greedy, commit adultery, etc.) It cannot make our women get abortions. It cannot make us have or deny us medical treatments that violate our moral code.

The only thing the government prevents us, as private citizens or as a religious community, from doing is coercing someone or some other community to pray our prayers, believe our revelation, celebrate our holidays, follow our religious ethical standards, prevent a woman from having an abortion, or have certain kinds of medical treatment. We are free to try to convince them, but we cannot coerce them. Since I am an optimist (Christians should be optimists) I believe that we can be successful in this environment.

Even in the hardest issue on this list, abortion – the fact and challenge remains for all of us, there would be no abortions if women did not feel the need for them – legal or not. It is our responsibility to convince them in our words and actions that the need does not exist.

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurch.org), October 30, 2003.

Greetings!

I found this forum while looking under a thread for 'Meditative Music' and may be qualified to respond: I am a Mason and a contemplative Christian, altho not Roman Catholic. I guess my response to this question would be: If you are a Catholic who believes that anyone not Roman Catholic is not capable of Salvation, then Masonry and Catholicism are incompatible. This was the position of the church, pre-Vatican II. Even Protestant's were anathemized regularly.

If, however, you are of the belief that people can meet in a place that encourages them to practise the Faith of their choice, be it Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Judaism, and live their lives according to a moral code that is very compatible with Catholicism, then a Mason's Lodge is meant to be a place that builds those bridges between men of all races and belief. There is **no** religious dogma in a Mason's Lodge - discussion of Religion and politics are forbidden. You *are* encouraged to look within the Sacred book of your belief and find ***therein*** the Truth that has been revealed. And then practise it in your life.

I have taken a great deal of time in my own life to examine this particular question. My own belief is that if there is truly **love** in a person's life, then that is direct evidence of the Holy Spirit and therefore Sanctification by God. Love is the evidence of the Spirit and cannot exist in the Spirit's absence. Who am I, therefore, to pass different judgement where God evidently already has? Who else can judge where God already has?

This Presence of the Spirit, therefore, may prove a person's Salvation and Relationship with God - but the anathema against Masonry may also preclude a person from being a Roman Catholic.

Relationship with God *does* exist outside the Roman Tradition. ; )

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.

Hello, Ash,

So in other words, it is not much different than avoiding certain topics when you're at the dinner table with family. Sounds like mere politeness, to me.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 30, 2003.

Hey everybody, take a good, long look at what Ash says above.

Ash says he's a Mason. Ash points then out a thing or two directly related, and I mean directly, to some of the key elements of debate between tradtional Catholics and modern Catholics.

If connections aren't being made at this point, I don't know what to say. Put two and two together.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 31, 2003.

What's it feel like to be building a mystery, Ash?

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, Catholic mystic in 1820 had something to say about the Masons:

"I saw the secret sect relentlessly undermining the great Church."

"In those days Faith will fall very low and it will be preserved in some places only."

"When the Church had been for the most part destroyed, and when only the sanctuary and altar were still standing, I saw the wreckers enter the Church with the Beast. There they met a Woman of noble carriage who seemed to be with child because she walked slowly. At this sight, the enemies were terrorized, and the Beast could not take but another step forward. It projected its neck towards the Woman as if to devour her, but the Woman turned about and bowed down (towards the altar), her head touching the ground. Thereupon, I saw the Beast taking to flight towards the sea again, and the enemies were fleeing in the greatest confusion."

"...all enemies were pursued. Then, I saw that the Church was being promptly rebuilt, and she was more magnificent than ever before."

Good luck.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 31, 2003.

"In those days Faith will fall very low and it will be preserved in some places only."

This is also thought to be stated (though for some reason withheld by the Church) in the third secret of Fatima:

"In Portgual, the Dogma of the Faith will remain..."†

-- Jeff (jmajoris@optonline.net), October 31, 2003.

Yeah, along those lines, and along these:

The vision of the woman clothed with the sun and of the great dragon her persecutor.

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.

3 And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her, a thousand two hundred sixty days.

7 And there was a great battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels.

8 And they prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world. And he was cast unto the earth: and his angels were thrown down with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of the testimony: and they loved not their lives unto death.

12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man child.

14 And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert, unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth, after the woman, water, as it were a river: that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.

16 And the earth helped the woman: and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

18 And he stood upon the sand of the sea.

I wonder if we are in the 12th Chapter right now.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 31, 2003.

Greetings again!

I only mean to come for healthy questioning, not to troll, nor to flame or to be flamed. Some of you, holding the former position outlined in my earlier response, will doubtless disagree with me.

You will also be the people who believe that non-Roman Catholics are damned. That's OK. That is your belief and I admire you for your strength of conviction.

Others here will be closer to my 2nd assertion and can see what I am talking about on the Holy Spirit and the Gospel of Christ's message: I noticed that nobody took up my assertion that the evidence of God's Sanctification is made evident by the Presence of Spirit.

My own belief (and I hope I am not offending) is that the Bible message needs to be discerned and the evidence of the truth of that discernment is Love and therefore the Presence of the Spirit.

It may be noted that I was formerly clergy in a mainline Protestant denomination that is very close to Roman Catholicism - this doesn't grant me any Authority to speak, but I just mention it only to show that I have put much thought into these matters and do practise them in my own life.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), October 31, 2003.

Heya GT! - the prohibition against speaking of Religion and politics in Lodge is more than politeness - an impolite family could choose to ignore propriety and speak of it anyways. This is an actual prohibition, with a penalty of expulsion and/or strong censure.

I am only intending to offer information, not to contradict nor to offend someone else's belief.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), October 31, 2003.

If the contributors to this thread -- be they Catholics (Mike H, John P, Paul M, GT, yours truly), cradle Protestants (Susan, Robert F), Ex-Catholics (Psyche, jake, Soapy, Emerald, Jeff), or miscellaneous troubled souls (Curious, Expectorator III, Joe/researcher, Ash) -- would like to know the detailed facts about Freemasonry/Masonry and why it is incompatible with Christianity -- they would do well to read the Catholic Encyclopedia's extensive article on this subject.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 02, 2003.

Why not just go straight to admonitions of the Vicar of Christ himself on the subject on Freemasonry when it's accessible from the very same New Advent server?

Read it.

The curtains open, and Scene I offers us the panorama of the City of Man vs. the City of God of Augustinian legend. The Mystical Body of Christ vs. the Cult of Man. The War of the Worlds.

Read it. You'll come across this paragraph:

"No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Savior."

Hey, that's worthy of repetition. Let's all hold hands and sing it together:

"No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Savior."

One more time now:

"No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Savior."

But of course, you know, the trads are just blowing the smoke of Satan. It's all paranoia, all conspiracy theory... yeah, that's it. Traditionalists are just imagining things, and in fact, if the Trads mention such things as Freemasons being counted among the enemies in the hallways of the House of God, why, they're clearly schismatic fallen away Catholics. Lunie-Bins. Nutcakes. Fruitloops. Nothing to see here, people, move along. Move along. Nothing to see here. Officer BSD will conveniently color code the flock and set us into groups, and make our paths straight for us.

Well if that's the case, then Pope Leo XIII was imagining things too.

Check this out from the document:

"For, from what We have above most clearly shown, that which is their ultimate purpose forces itself into view--namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced, and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas, of which the foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere naturalism."

See that word "naturalism". See that word; watch that scene... dig the Dancing Queen of a bride that we are now seeing in our local parishes. See the devastation, don't be in denial any longer. Take the time to find out what this naturalism is; who promotes it and how to detect it. "A new state of things"... think about that too.

Read the whole document. For heaven's sake, read the document everybody.

It's totally Trad.

This document is so thickly pro-Trad that no neo can swim through it, and that's why they don't really want to bring the subject up, let alone the supporting Papal documents. Same thing with Pope St. Pius X's Pascendi Dominici Gregis.

But, you know, the trads are uneducated. Lacking all understanding.

What the heck do we know?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 02, 2003.

"4. The Roman Pontiffs Our predecessors, in their incessant watchfulness over the safety of the Christian people, were prompt in detecting the presence and the purpose of this capital enemy immediately it sprang into the light instead of hiding as a dark conspiracy; and, moreover, they took occasion with true foresight to give, as it were on their guard, and not allow themselves to be caught by the devices and snares laid out to deceive them."

He said it. He actually said it. See that kiwi, Mateo. Woo-hoo!!!

I think I'll go rend my pharisaical garments in a fit of ecstacy.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 02, 2003.

Dear Emmie:
Does your every post have to become a ''sizzler''//? ? ? We know by this time you're an extrovert. But you're gilding the lily over and over again; it's drooping under the weight of your bombast.

You could just say, Looka here; a Pope back in the 19th century warned us about Freemasons!

Not you; you gotta give us the Seventy-Six Trombones essay! Of course with every ''Trad'' overtone! Lol! --It's tiresome after the first dozen renditions, Dear Boy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 02, 2003.

That's really interesting, Gene.

Oooh... look at this:

16. If those who are admitted as members are not commanded to abjure by any form of words the Catholic doctrines, this omission, so far from being adverse to the designs of the Freemasons is more useful for their purposes. First, in this way they easily deceive the simple-minded and the heedless, and can induce a far greater number to become members. Again, as all who offer themselves are received whatever may be their form of religion, they thereby teach the great error of this age--that a regard for religion should be held as an indifferent matter, and that all religions are alike. This manner of reasoning is calculated to bring about the ruin of all forms of religion, and especially of the Catholic religion, which, as it is the only one that is true, cannot, without great injustice, be regarded as merely equal to other religions.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 02, 2003.

Well; that's a useful post. In no way do we stand against its message; taken in context.

There's nothing about our Church's outreach to non-Catholics that could be misconstrued as indifference to the true faith and our obligation to it. There's precious little in the stance of so-called traditionals which is more deserving of loyalty or respect than our present and enduring faith. You may look through every Church encyclical for long knives to poke at those you misunderstand. But it's your own misunderstanding that hurts you; not us.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 02, 2003.

It's tiresome after the first dozen renditions, Dear Boy.

For the whole truth, drop the words "dozen" and "dear," please. You get -----
"It's tiresome after the first rendition, Boy."

He to whom you speak is just a "boy," given his unformed mind and immature behaviors. And yet, his act is so tired and worn out that he should be called "EmerOld." Old, worn-out, useless malarkey is all his pathetic act is.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 03, 2003.

Let's come off the high horse. We do not hate Emerald; he just annoys us. Me, for one. I annoy him & even you, very possibly. With Christian charity, any annoyance can be accepted. Malice is the sin of Cain. He was annoyed by Abel.

Rather than concentrated hatred, we need concentrated patience. Catholics are to be recognised in this world by the love they have for one another. It's a commandment.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 03, 2003.

Hey emerald boy, knock it off. don't you know by now, that the present pope is not bound by anything you, and your dead pope society, has to say. Viva Vatican II.

-- The Mick (Mickeymouse@swiss cheese.com), November 03, 2003.

Wow. I must admit I find hatred of the sort espoused by one or two or the forum members here to be very sad.

But I am heartened by the willingness of most of the others, if not to agree, at least to not hate.

I refer back to my earlier posted comment on the evidence of Sanctification being the Presence of Love and therfore the Holy Spirit. Still no comment?

Freemasonry encourages us to participate in our Faiths. It does not espouse universality of Religions as it makes no comment upon any specific religion - it is only concerned with the morals of the inward man; as most religious faiths also concern themselves with morality, Freemasonry recognizes this in order to encourage a man's development in this manner. And it recognizes the superiority of religion to this goal.

Additionally, we are encouraged to live our greatest moral virtue in the world: charity. Freemasonry *is* intended to be a place that helps us to exercise this virtue. But philanthropy is not the main goal of Freemasonry; inward moral change and awareness is. Outward charity is but the natural response to this growth within.

As to Freemasonry being incompatible with Christianity, I have previously sat for several years in a Lodge beside an Ordained Bishop (not RC, but a well-known mainline denomination) and if he has no problem reconciling its precepts with his own very very strong Faith and life, then who am I to judge it negatively? It may be incompatible with Roman Catholicity, but that is only one section in the 'Orchestra' that is Christ's Church.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

Dear Ash,
Ash us if we care; if anyone cares about your so-called orchestra. Take the masonic oath; be part of the secret society; and after that, go out in the world convinced of your elite status and superiority over others.

There is more that the upward side of this masonic coin. You can't divulge the other side of the coin, you tae the oath. May your tongue be cut out, etc., --

The charity of shriners etc., is well and good; but the influence of the devil within these lodges is an affront to God, not just His Church. Men who willingly place themselves and draw others, into the devil's sphere are not superior; they are caught in a web. What can be noble and refined about being devoured by Satan as a thinking adult? It's a dirty shame!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

Eugene, does it ever occur to you that people prioritize things? As in, it would be possible for you to claim allegience to two things (oh, let's say dual citizenship), but when pressed, will favor one over the other (and actually you always have, but the issue of choosing hadn't come up).

Many people join the Masons because they find that other people they meet belong, just like taking up that dreadful sport called golf (I'm with (I think) Twain, who said, "Golf is a good walk spoiled.") because your boss does. From what Ash says, and what I have read on the site he posted, religion is not an issue, so why should it be for Catholics? I would bet that unless you work in the Church, you can't talk about religion all day at work, either. So why it that such an issue as far as Catholics and Masons?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 04, 2003.

GT, I have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to make a comment about what I posted, refer back to whatever leads to your commentary. That way I'll see what's bothered you; Please--with all due respect.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

"Dear Ash, Take the masonic oath; be part of the secret society; and after that, go out in the world convinced of your elite status and superiority over others.

There is more that the upward side of this masonic coin. You can't divulge the other side of the coin, you tae the oath. May your tongue be cut out, etc., --

The charity of shriners etc., is well and good; but the influence of the devil within these lodges is an affront to God, not just His Church. Men who willingly place themselves and draw others, into the devil's sphere are not superior; they are caught in a web. What can be noble and refined about being devoured by Satan as a thinking adult? It's a dirty shame!"

This was what I was talking about. I really doubt that many people today taking Masonic oaths take them *that* seriously at all, at least in the sense that you're talking about. Several on this thread can't see Masons for what they are today which is a glorified frat boy club. Maybe in medieval times things were somewhat different, but now....

What I'm saying is that if your faith is strong, joining the Masons or any other organization is not going to change your mind about your core beliefs. Take what you find good in an organization and leave the rest that doesn't apply to you and your religious beliefs behind.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 04, 2003.

GT,
If you truly understood, it wouldn't surprise you that many Popes have condemned Freemasonry. You haven't seen it the way they have. In the U.S. there is this ''men's club'' aura around it. We see the cheerful side. That's why I say, don't assume the other side of the coin is just frat brats. The other side is helped along by the devil. --And; even here, the good side; it's not conducive to any ''organised'' religion. Among other abuses against the faith are their books and indoctrination, which speak of God as a vague ''architect'' of the universe who was known to the ancient seers of ''mystery religions'', and their wizards etc;

--Altogether indifferent to a revealed God as we anticipate Him. As Christ revealed Him. Just games? Then why, in European societies, have they actively undermined governments, and the Catholic Church in particular?

A rarely-acknowledged truth is, Masons were leaders of the so called republican side (Communists paid and installed by Moscow) in Spain's Civil War. They were defeated largely because Spain revolted against their suppression and persecution of the Church! Now, today; the ''bad guy'' is Franco, who kicked their arse! Lol! This wasn't even 80 years ago; what do you mean, ''medieval''--?

You say, GT: ''What I'm saying is that if your faith is strong, joining the Masons or any other organization is not going to change your mind about your core beliefs.''

My reply to this, is: If your faith is strong, joining the Masons is out of the question! If your faith ISN'T strong, they'll soon make you toss it in a slop bucket, wait & see. They have no use for the Catholic Church, trust us! That's the main reason I emphatically repeat: It's an affront against God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

Actually, we do **not** teach superiority at all; instead, Masonry teaches a man the following (taken directly from Masonic Ritual, and available on the Internet):

"If you see a man who quietly and modestly moves in the sphere of his life; who, without blemish, fulfils his duty as a man, a subject, a husband and a father; who is pious without hypocrisy, benevolent without ostentation, and aids his fellowman without self-interest; whose heart beats warm for friendship, whose serene mind is open for licensed pleasures, who in vicissitudes does not despair, nor in fortune will be presumptuous, and who will be resolute in the hour of danger; The man who is free from superstition and free from infidelity; who in nature sees the finger of the Eternal Master; who feels and adores the higher destination of man; to whom faith, hope and charity are not mere words without any meaning; to whom property, nay even life, is not too dear for the protection of innocence and virtue, and for the defense of truth;

The man who towards himself is a severe judge, but who is tolerant with the debilities of his neighbour; who endeavours to oppose errors without arrogance, and to promote intelligence without impatience; who properly understands how to estimate and employ his means; who honours virtue though it may be in the most humble garment, and who does not favour vice though it be clad in purple; and who administers justice to merit whether dwelling in palaces or cottages. The man who, without courting applause, is loved by all noble-minded men, respected by his superiors and revered by his subordinates; the man who never proclaims what he has done, can do, or will do, but where need is will lay hold with dispassionate courage, circumspect resolution, indefatigable exertion and a rare power of mind, and who will not cease until he has accomplished his work, and then, without pretension, will retire into the multitude because he did the good act, not for himself, but for the cause of good! If you, my Brethren meet such a man, you will see the personification of brotherly love, relief and truth; and you will have found the ideal of a Freemason. "

This is from a piece called 'The General Charge' and is delivered with great feeling at the Installation of Officers for a Lodge every year. It is considered by most Masons to personify the highest ideals to which we aspire - not to replace religion, but as an additional place to practise our morals - in my case, morals learnt in the Church and proceeding from Christ.

Ash

(Still no comment about Love demonstrating the Presence of the Holy Spirit and therefore Sanctification?)

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

Eugene, what is wrong with referrring to God as "the architect of the universe"? He designed it and made it, didn't He?

And what Ash just posted has nothing offensive in it, and nothing that deliberately attacks Catholicism (or any other religion for that matter).

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 04, 2003.

You are better off investigating the history of world Masonry, Ash; than borrowing the platitudes which Masons cribbed from better sources. Terms like ''Faith Hope and Charity'' aren't Masonic in concept. They are Catholic; and Christian (proceed from Christ). Yet this address gives scant credit to the Saviour of Humanity, doesn't it? Completely ignored.

It is at the base, a secret society; and that's why you have to investigate into past Masonic activities. How do secret societies operate? Clandestinely; with passwords and oaths of silence, and conspiratorial ''brotherhoods''. In America, just look at the Ku Klux Klan; a secret society. The Mafia; secret and dangerous. Conspiratorial, answering to no law but the brotherhood's.

Nothing can justify operating in secrecy and codes of silence. Our Lord is the LIGHT of the world; we are called out of darkness into light.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

Eugene, what is wrong with referrring to God as "the architect of the universe"?

Nothing. Nothing except it's the ''unknown'' deity with no identity; and stands for the god of ancient secret societies and cabals. Not even Judeo Christian, or a Father. Just a concept. An architect.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

There is **nothing** in Freemasonry that attacks **any** religion. (But it *will* hold you to a high moral standard!)

There *are* Masons who have acted against the precepts of Freemasonry - as there are many Roman Catholics that have acted against the precepts of the Church. Anyone who is a Catholic ever commit murder? Does that make murder an act condoned by the Church? Of course not!

Freemasonry on the European continent has wrongly been involved in politics in the past. British Freemsaonry and Freemasonry that stems from it (almost all non-European Masonry, incl North American) forbids discussion of politics in Lodge.

But the standard to which we aspire is contained in the words quoted above.

And to know the Presence of the Spirit in our lives and to express that knowledge by Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth.

And before it is said "Ah! But you only 'do for your own' - Our Brothers are everyone (as Christ indicated) and our expression is to the tune of millions of dollars a day of charity - with no acknowledgement.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

Ash:
A Catholic can do evil, yes. In almost every case, where is the evil committed by a Catholic? In the open? Are the sins of all Catholics in the light of day?

No-- they are in secret. Just as the lodges take care not to admit the outsider, and keep things out of public sight. Bad Catholics, and bad Masons; they hide from the light. Not the Shriner at a football game; or in the children's hospital. That comes out; it's good PR.

The secrecy is rites of passage and codes of silence and the threats of violence to whoever might inform on the brotherhood. Same as the Mafia and the Klan. Same as the revolutionaries in France and Spain, even Rome. It's such an OLD lodge, Ash. But it's the same lodge, the same secret society. .

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

When someone says "architect of the universe", I know exactly who they are talking about. It's God. Just as when people say someone's gone to meet his Maker. It's God.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 04, 2003.

"Mr chavez", I take exception to you comparing Freemasonry with the Mafia and the Klan - we do not hold the same values in any way, shape or form and I would have your apology, although from your previous postings I do not expect you to be capable of it.

You can disagree with and not join the Lodge from your belief in the Catholic Church, but you cannot disparage it's aims from your place of ignorance.

I have been polite and tried to provide information without disparagement, but alas this is too much for you to understand. So full of hate you are! How sad really.

Mr Chavez, you still cannot answer a question regarding the Message of the Gospel, and the Presence of the Spirit - it is obvious that you have no inkling of what the Message of Christ actually is and resort instead to attacking others in the absence of that part of your soul and to blindly quoting Scripture, as if you had the slightest knowledge of what it actually meant.

I will pray for you to learn what Christ wants before you have to meet Him.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

Thanks, Ash
Yes, there is a definite way, shape or form to compare the lodges of one secret society to another. I've shown them; clandestine rites; secret signs and passwords, the oath of secrecy and silence; and many devious practices. Those of the Klan's & Mafia we know by public record. The Freemason's by historical records-- of their infiltration by stealth into governments and revolutionary movements. I haven't even entered into the diverse offenses committed by Masonic societies; they range from tranferring funds into subversive enterprises to actual murders. Don't take my word. Investigate world Freemasonry and its history over many centuries. It's not a lie.

Your private experiences do not give the full story. Your lame statement: ''. . . but alas this is too much for you to understand. So full of hate you are! How sad really.''

--Is a joke. I don't hate you; I've had some shriner friends, and they were just as unconvincing as you are. But I never hated them. I simply tell you something true. If you can't believe me, OK. Don't investigate. Remain in your Golden Circle of odge brothers. Just don't come saying we're equally faithful Catholics. You disobey the Church, becoming a Mason. Secret societies are forbidden to Catholics, Ash!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

"Presence of the Spirit"

Freemasonry has Satanism at it's center.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 04, 2003.

I agree - "Secret Societies are forbidden to Catholics"; Freemasonry is open to all men of good will, it's meetings are available on the internet, it's passwords and Rites can be learnt there also - we are simply not a Secret Society; if we were Secret, we would change them after they were revealed; we have not. If we were Secret, we would not publish the places and times and pictures of our meetings.

1) If you'd read any of my posts, you would realize I'm not Roman Catholic and that therefore the Pope has no Authority for me.

2) Additionally, if you'd read, you would realize that I admit the incompatibility of Roman Catholicism and Freemasonry - at least if you are the pre-Vatican II, dogmatic type that still thinks Protestants are anathema also.

3) There have been more deaths caused in the name of the Roman Church throughout history than by any other society. That doesn't mean it was the moral law of the Church that promoted it. The Holocaust was ignored by the Roman Church, but I would not accuse the Roman Church of promoting that type of immorality.

4) As to 'Secret Signs' and Rites, you need to look no further than the Society of Jesus - the Jesuits.

5) Do you for a moment believe that all that goes on in the Vatican is open for all to see? Or are there things that aren't for everyone to know? A Freemason's methods of identification are the only secrets in a Lodge - everything else is 'private'. The difference can be illustrated thus: If you were to walk into your local Grocery store and ask to see the accounting books, they would say that they are 'Private', open only to those with an ability to understand them. Same as in Lodge - our Rites are open to anyone who wants to spend the time to understand them - anyone with discernment and the Spirit.

And you STILL can't answer my argument regarding the Holy Spirit and it's Presence being the evidence of Sanctification by God.

Anything can be taken out of context if one chooses: If one were to examine the Mass out of context, one could easily explain it as "Christians eat the flesh and blood of their murdered God" - this sounds pretty awful, but it is what goes on in the Mass - but this is obviously out of context as the Mass means so much more to anyone who actually knows Christ's message..

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

You make yourself perfectly clear now, Ash;
You took off the mask and stated your clear prejudice against the Catholic Church. In that case, please don't come here to play impartial referee, because you're disqualified.

Your otherwise trivial question: And you STILL can't answer my argument ''regarding the Holy Spirit and it's Presence being the evidence of Sanctification by God.'' --is a specious exercise in mock religiosity then. What do YOU care what Catholics believe? You're only here to fight them. Is this ''evidence of sanctification?'' Coming here as adversary to the Catholic Church?

If others care to entertain you, let them. You don't need my ''delight'' at your probing questions. I save that for people of good will.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 04, 2003.

"Additionally, if you'd read, you would realize that I admit the incompatibility of Roman Catholicism and Freemasonry..."

Incompatibility is the wrong word. Try the term diametrically opposed, or the word Enemey. Enemy of the Church, enemy of God, enemy of God's people.

The Citadel of Man is their object, in direct opposition to the City of God, which is properly deliniated as the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church and the Mystical Body of Christ are one and the same, and he who is not with Me is against Me says the head of this body, and his Vicars have clearly laid out the case against it.

Eugene seems to have a good insight into these things, but his best reason is his simplest: Freemasonry has been repeated condemned by numerous pontiffs in very clear and precise terms, and not as an incompatibility but as a grave threat to the very existence of the Catholic Church itself. Not that we can be prevailed against, but that significant damage can none the less be done in the trying.

Again, your organization is certainly driven by a Satanic center. On the very surface of it alone, it's all in your symbolism for anyone to see who knows what to look for. The organization has done a fine job so far in accomplishing it's objectives, but it's days are numbered.

Aside from all this though, even the Freemasons themselves are pawns of something deeper.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 04, 2003.

A good general purpose antidote for any and all such related stuff.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 04, 2003.

I still have a couple left, y'know. All juiced up with the high- octane, full-on, old school Benedictine exorcism blessing.

I was pleased to give them to some people in the forum.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 04, 2003.

You still didn't answer my question because you can't. It is the heart of the Faith, and you don't even know it.

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

Incoming, jake.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 04, 2003.

Done : )

-- jake (j@k.e), November 04, 2003.

As has Eugene, I have "detected" top-drawer B.S. from the flaming Ash.

As to Freemasonry being incompatible with Christianity, I have previously sat for several years in a Lodge beside an Ordained Bishop (not RC, but a well-known mainline denomination) and if he has no problem reconciling its precepts with his own very very strong Faith and life, then who am I to judge it negatively? It may be incompatible with Roman Catholicity, but that is only one section in the 'Orchestra' that is Christ's Church.

That's some B.S., baby!
1. The guy you sat with was not "ordained." No "mainline denomination" has the ability to "ordain" anyone, since none has preserved apostolic succession.
2. Thus the guy is neither a priest nor a bishop, but a layman like you and me.
3. The guy probably has no idea about the nefarious history of Freemasonry [which is not "gratis stonework"], so he is not in any postion to judge the secret society objectively.
4. The guy with a "very very strong Faith" can't even figure out that God wants him to be Catholic -- yet we Catholics are supposed to be convinced to imitate him in tolerating Masonry? That's B.S..
5. Masonry is incompatible with ANY part of civilized society, not just Catholicism.
6. Catholicis is not a "section in the 'orchestra' that is Christ's Church." Rather, she IS Christ's Church. He founded her -- and only her. You are outside Christ's Church, budddy boy, though you possess a portion of her truths.

As to 'Secret Signs' and Rites, you need to look no further than the Society of Jesus - the Jesuits.

What a B.S. artist you are -- or at least ignorant! There are no "secret signs" and "rites" in the Society of Jesus. You must have picked that up from some anti-Catholic, Chicck-like screed. Man, are you in need of a thorough brain-rinse!

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 04, 2003.

Everything cannot possibly come down to knowledge and ignorance, John. It's a liberal methodology to think as much.

Take drug abuse, for instance. At least in terms of what's commonly referred to as political liberalism, what's their solution? Education. People do drugs because they are ignorant, is the premise. If we could only teach them, thereby ridding them of their ignorance, they would stop doing drugs or wouldn't start.

Does it work? No. Why? Because it isn't a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of the will. People choose to do drugs.

The same assumption about knowledge, the same proposed solution, and the same failure is the cycle of social liberalism for just about each and every one of the social ills that social liberalism embraces in an attempt to rectify.

The principle they proceed with is in error.

It's the same error embraced by the modernist Catholic; that if we could only just explain to the world the principles of our Catholic Faith, then they would immediately upon seeing the truth, embrace it. It would be automatic:

Man dumb. Other man bring Catholic truth. Man see Catholic truth. Man now smart. Man saved.

It doesn't work. (have you noticed?) The world hates Catholicism; they won't like it any better just because we explain it to them.

Of the number of people who hear the truth, some will embrace it and be saved because they choose it and all it entails.

It's a matter of the will, not knowledge, salvation is... we can't approach people with the Faith, have it rejected, and then excuse/beat them over the head them on the grounds of invincible ignorance. If that's the methodology and the principle behind evangelization, why bother in the first place?

We were told to bother, though. Some people take it, some reject it, but we can't take it personally. Banging Ash over the head isn't going to change his mind.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 05, 2003.

Dear Emers has determined: ''. . . it's the same error embraced by the modernist Catholic; that if we could only just explain to the world the principles of our Catholic Faith, then they would immediately upon seeing the truth, embrace it. It would be automatic,''

But he's grasping after a straw. ''Modernist'' is simply his own pejorative way of dividing the church. At each and every point in time, the Catholic faith has been on the cutting edge. The church has watered the ground with blood of martyrs, not only ''explained to the world the principles of our Catholic Faith''. Just as always, Emerald resorts to sophisms. Tell us what the Catholic faith does, please, Saint Emmaus; to stay within the faith and still be on the cutting edge? I'm sure you must know. This time cut out this ''modernist'' and ''Neo'' jargon. It lost all its power to divide many months ago.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 05, 2003.

This time cut out this ''modernist'' and ''Neo'' jargon.

Yeah, 'cause Modernist Neos never use any kind of "jargon" trying to get their points across.

Ever.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 05, 2003.

This time cut out this ''modernist'' and ''Neo'' jargon.

Yeah, 'cause Modernist Neos never use any kind of "jargon" trying to get their points across.

Ever.

He's defending the Faith against an avowed Freemason with an avowed hatred for anything Catholic, Gene, and still you won't let it rest.

Put up thy sword into the scabbard. (St. John 18:11)

-- jake (j@k.e), November 05, 2003.

OK; somehow it seemed the Lad was dressing down BSD, presumably John. ''--Everything cannot possibly come down to knowledge and ignorance, John. It's a liberal methodology and, and -- ! ! ! Let him rant, Jake. You & I can be left out.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 05, 2003.

"Traditionalists" see their own little 0.01% of the Church as Meanwhile, real modernists (they actually do exist) see the majority of the Church as bogged down in traditionalism. That's the problem with extremist positions. From such a perspective, which the extremist considers "balanced", everything else in his field of view, most of which is in fact solidly mainline, looks extremist. Modernists represent the opposite pole from "traditionalists" - another little cluster of extremists on the outer fringes of the bell curve - which unfortunately means the outer fringes of the Church. One who is actually in the mainline Church, with a more balanced perspective, can see both poles pretty clearly - and they look disturbingly similar. Both battling for the "reform" of the Church. Both setting themselves up as the ultimate authority regarding the nature of needed reform. Both rejecting, at least in part, the genuine authority of the Pope and the Magisterium. Both tearing down the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - one because it is so stodgy and "traditional", the other because it is so "irreverent" and "modernist". Meanwhile the Holy Catholic Church steams full ahead with Christ at the helm, just where He promised He would be until the end of time. Well, someone has to occupy those vanishing points of the bell curve. The only way to avoid it would be to avoid the bell curve altogether - which would mean everyone being exactly alike. That wouldn't be very interesting now, would it?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 05, 2003.

"Dogmas and doctrines grow and evolve" John Paul II EDA, 1987 "Evolution of dogma and doctrine is condemned". St. Pius X, P:12-27

These two popes cannot agree.

-- dooby (lsnooper@thewestern.com), November 05, 2003.

Dear Folks;

The temptation is suggest a bit of levity and have everyone link on to Oliver Stone’s www.worldhistoryofconspericies.edu.

In all seriousness, this conversation has done little to illuminate. While I recognize the loyalty of the Catholic community in this thread to the pronouncements of the Vatican, the group’s accusations are by title but not detail. It is one thing to say that the Masons seek by plan or intrigue to infiltrate (purpose unclear) the American government but where is the proof? You can say that the Masons work against the Roman Catholic Church in America, but again, where is the proof. The conversation here has yet to reach the level beyond reasonable doubt. It has not even approached a preponderance of evidence. And let’s make a 50-year statute of limitations – in other words, deal with this generation of Masons.

Things that would support the Catholic position – 1 Arrest records for a Masonic related crime (beyond disorderly conduct at Shriner’s conventions. For Shriners- I’m not saying that that happens, it’s just an example). This could include political assassination, blackmail, extortion, insider trading, election fraud, etc. directly related to a Masonic organization.

2 Any published material by verified Masonic temples or state organizations that is anti-Catholic, specifically seeking to damage or defame the Church regarding its doctrine, piety, worship, or discipline. (example: the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in God.)

3 Any published material by official Masonic temples or organizations that states talks about national or world domination.

4 Any published material by official Masonic temples or organizations that identify themselves as a religion in competition with other religions.

I’m not offering a defense of Freemasonry, I simply suggest that verifiable proof be placed into the conversation. Since the Catholic community is making the accusation – the burden of proof (not hearsay) is theirs. It is not up to the Masons to prove that they are not what they are accused of – it is logically impossible to prove a conspiracy does not exist (Remember, both Protestants and Catholics ran into trouble when they attempted to have accused witches prove that they were not witches.)

As to the previous list I posted regarding the other organizations that wouldn’t pass Vatican muster (Boy Scouts – deist belief, U.S. Congress – secrecy, Knights of Columbus – evil symbols, etc.…. Remember folks, this was satire) is it possible that the College of Cardinals could be included in the list… unless they are willing to have a live broadcast of the debates regarding the election of the next Pope – a long time from now. Now is that private or secret? Peace

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 05, 2003.

Or perhaps it is just your personal interpretations of these two quotes that do not agree? It is apparent that Pius X was speaking of dogmatic statements themselves - "Salvation is only through the Church Jesus Christ founded for all men". Do you seriously think John Paul doesn't know this? He was clearly speaking about our comprehension, our understanding of dogma and doctrine, which most certainly does progress toward greater perfection with further study, as the Holy Spirit continues to guide His Church into all truth. Basic truths (dogmas and doctrines) do not evolve, nor do they suddenly appear - or disappear. However some of the truths we know ABOUT those basic truths do take shape gradually.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 05, 2003.

He was clearly speaking about our comprehension, our understanding of dogma and doctrine, which most certainly does progress toward greater perfection with further study,

[T]hat understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared and there must never be a recession [moving away or progression] from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding. - Vatican I.

as the Holy Spirit continues to guide His Church into all truth.

The Holy Ghost hasn't revealed "all truth" yet?!

-- Regina (Regina712REMOVE@lycos.com), November 05, 2003.

Robert:
You've made it a 50 year statute of limitations. That makes the well-known subject of Spain's Civil War about 15 years out of our radar scope, and the Italian treasons of the 19th century untouchable. (You wouldn't have done that knowingly, I seriously doubt.)

In latter years, we can't indict any American lodge of evil intents; and that ought to clean the slate. I take it guilt by association is barred. We can't say the Masonic lodge is guilty of sending guys to sleep with the fishes; as the Mafia has. Nor like the Klan, lobbing fire-bombs into black churches. We know they are secret societies; same as the Masons! However, these are certainly not cool things for a Mason to be doing. Nah !

But if they DID; neither you nor I would KNOW.

We take things so constitutionally today. You need witnesses, and evidence. You need squealers; and with a Mason being obliged to a code of silence, and strict loyalty to his Den Mother; how do you expect him to squeal? Don't ask, don't tell. If you do, the newspaper editor won't report anything; he's a Mason. The Congressman won't listen, he's a Mason.

Let's have levity. Let's tell jokes about the College of Cardinals! Let's bring a lawsuit against some Cardinals. That's great fun! Or-- a lawsuit against the Boy Scouts! You can't say anything funny about ANY secret society. Or, try to say the Mafia operates along those same lines. Everybody'll laugh at us!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 05, 2003.

You have spent too much of your lives examining your navels. If you had traveled extensively in the world, as I have, as a Master Mason, and visited Masonic lodges around the world, you would know from your own personal experience that many of the world's Masons are catholic. In Costa Rica, the membership of the lodge that I visited was exclusively Catholic. They thought all Masons were catholic.

I know Jewish Masons, Islamic Masons and Buddist Masons. All good men. I'm proud of all that I have met.

Your sweeping assertions with nothing to back them are rediculous.

-- tedeuscong (tedeuscong@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Shoot... where did I put that surprised look I had laying around here somewhere?

I never have one when I really need one.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 06, 2003.

Dear Ted:
You're right; we have to watch these sweeping assessments. The innocent can definitely be impugned along with the guilty.

And times change. The mechanism, however, is always available when the particular cause arises. It's like a .357 Magnum; which can't kill you or me; as long as a madman never uses it.

You say it's ridiculous, but you weren't in Madrid during the 1930's when Catholic nuns were machine- gunned in broad daylight by atheists and communists who were aided and abetted by Masons-- who wrested power in the government briefly. It's assumed they won by fair elections, so today we call them Republicans. Actually they were subversives over many decades.

I was employed in California some years ago; under the SON of a communist enforcer hired to assassinate dissidents WITHIN the communist rank and file of Spain; who were rising up to defend their motherland against these men. --Who were the dissenters? Masons who had imported Stalin's government to their country, attempting to eliminate the petit bourgeoisie and Catholicism. My employer was innocent. He was brought up in Mexico; where his mother took him later. His father is dead. He isn't a Mason, but many other Mexican government functionaries are.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

"He isn't a Mason, but many other Mexican government functionaries are."

Many other Mexican gov't functionaries belong to the Catholic Church also - perhaps *that* is where they learn their conspiracy? You set up a 'Straw Man' argument and make assertions but provide no proof!

You speak of communists supported by Masons, but where is your proof?

BTW: I do not in any way hate the Roman church as you accuse me of - what I hate is untruth and lies, wherever it may be found. It has not been *I* who have accused any here of belonging to groups like the Klan or the Mafia - accusing you of being murderers and racists, altho' a case may be made in both cases that the Church has done so in the past. It is recorded *fact* that many many Spanish (and others!) people were killed by the Catholic church during the Inquisition and during their various Holy Wars. People are still killing each other in Northern Ireland in the name of the Church. But these are again not done by the Church - they are done by ill- informed people who happen to be Members of the church.

I have refrained from these base name callings and have only asked a simple question:

Yet nobody here has *yet* spoken to my assertion that the 'Evidence of the Holy Spirit is the Presence of Love and that this Presence therefore shows Sanctification by God' as mentioned previously.

Does nobody here know Gospel - only Law? Christ came to bring Gospel and to fulfill Law and while I can agree that He is at the Helm of the Roman Church, among others, it is a hard helm to till if the passengers do not know His true message.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 06, 2003.

Eugene,

It's surprising that you chose Spain as an example of Masonic/ Anti Catholic extremism. My wife and I lived in Spain, a very diverse country, for several years and we speak Spanish.

El Caudillo, Generalissimo Franco was a very bad man and murdered many people with the tacit support of the Catholic Church in Spain. The Church was actively Royalist in the Spanish Civil War.

One of my early memories in Spain in 1955, was of a fat Spanish Catholic Priest who came aboard our merchant ship in Valencia with 2 young women.

The Priest was a Pimp for the 2 women who went from room to room having sex with most of the Unlicensed Crew Members in exchange for 2 bars of soap or 2 packs of cigarettes. The ship's local agent confirmed that the man was indeed a Priest. There are people still alive who were there and observed the Priest's activities.

Tedeuscong

-- tedeuscong (tedeuscong@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

Let him rant, Jake. You & I can be left out.

Happily.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 06, 2003.

Dear Gene,

OK… no humor.

Yes, proof does matter.

First, Accusations cobbled together of behavior tolerated in other organizations are unjust.

Second, The rebuttal that secrecy has prevented Masonic criminal behavior from coming to light is not historically realistic.

Secrecy/privacy has never protected criminal behavior that threatens the national government or its people. The FBI infiltrated the Klan and the Mafia. The NY Times printed the Pentagon Papers. Bernstein and Woodward exposed Watergate and Nixon. And the current unpleasantness in Boston has grieved all Christians of good will. The list goes on. You should know that if there were any real stories of conspiracy, some reporter wanting to make his career would have found something.

Third, Guilt by association is unacceptable. Its history is the foundation of innumerable injustices and prejudices: The charge of deicide against the Jews; The curse of Ham toward Africans; The charge against the Vatican seeking political control of the United States by encouraging the 19th Century migration from Ireland and Italy… just to name a few.

As far as the political involvement of the European Lodges – 1) according to their own documents and testimony, it is contrary to the American Masonic code of conduct. 2) 19th Century Italy was fairly turbulent. I doubt there were too many “neutral” groups in the eventual nationalization of the country. 3) I’m unfamiliar with the accusation regarding the Masonic involvement with the Spanish Civil War. Whose side were they on? What are the documented facts?

Again, guilt by association is not acceptable. A bad act (violating Masonic Code and/or civil legal authority) of a Masonic lodge or individual in 1930’s Spain does not bring guilt to the members of an American Lodge or Masonic organization in 2003, just as the bad acts of a few priests condemns the ministry and priesthood of the Catholic Church in America.

I have seen you rightfully defend the Catholic Church against unjust accusations. You know the pain and damage such accusations cause.

The only (human) protection against such unrighteousness and injustice is the demand of fact and proof beyond reasonable doubt. Anything less is unacceptable.

Peace.

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 06, 2003.

Correction: The line should read- Just as the bad acts of a few priests does not condemn...

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 06, 2003.

Dear ASH:
What's this have to do with my post?

Many other Mexican gov't functionaries belong to the Catholic Church also --

In Spain almost everybody is baptised Catholic. The Mafia baptises their children. It's what everybody calls nominally Catholic. Mexico is particularly riddled with unfaithful Catholics. I have discussed this aspect of the faith here before.

A person who hasn't attended Mass all his life except to marry, baptise kids; --Even enrols as a Mason--

In a last minute death- bed scare calls for the priest, and repents when it's all behind him. Italy and France are also countries where the Catholic Church is ridiculed, up to the moment of imminent demise. Call it God's grace, or just fear of his retribution; that is a bad Catholic. At least in your case, you aren't a hypocrite in the bargain. Those catholics Ted says he knows in Costa Rica, etc., are all hypocrites. They live their lives as enemies of the Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

I agree with Robert on this, I too would like to see some concrete proof of Masonic involvement in this or that--not hearsay, not "so-and-so belonged to the Masons so he must agree with every single thing", etc. That's as much nonsense as when people were complaining that a Catholic president would be influenced 24/7 by the Pope.

Oh, maybe you could keep these kinds of things secret years ago, but today. Not likely.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 06, 2003.

Furthermore, your next ''fact'' --

''It is recorded *fact* that many many Spanish (and others!) people were killed by the Catholic Church during the Inquisition and during their various Holy Wars. People are still killing each other in Northern Ireland in the name of the Church. But these are again not done by the Church,''

Is NOT a fact, it's a figment of your imagination. The Catholic Church is daily calumniated by robots like yourself, who believe the great lies told them by other bashers. It never enters a robot's mind to look it up. Catholics may go to war, but not as holy war. Another figment.

In a previous post I accused you of removing the mask; you are a Catholic basher. That's the main reason you came into this board. Which mens your word is worth absolutely nothing, Ash. Who cares if you're a Mason? Only you?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

El Caudillo, Generalissimo Franco was a very bad man and murdered many people with the tacit support of the Catholic Church in Spain. The Church was actively Royalist in the Spanish Civil War.

Is that so? You don't realise then that the so called Republicans had set up a Soviet satellite government in Spain? Why do you think Franco was called fascist? He hated communists, and they took over his country. With the collaboration of Spanish Masons. They were traitors. You might have been a collaborator yourself. I would have been a Falangista and sent you packing. We were both born too late!

One of my early memories in Spain in 1955, was of a fat Spanish Catholic Priest who came aboard our merchant ship in Valencia with 2 young women.

Well; we know where your faith is. It's in your bed. Why am I nort surprised you'd denigrate Catholic priests and nuns in a Catholic board? Because: anti-Catholics do that every day. Particularly Masonic creeps It may well be you found a corrupt priest. We have to think some bum just made a sucker out of you. Sinners come in all kinds of disguises. Look at you; a so- called Master Mason. Master of the garbage dump.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

Mr Chavez:

The weak always resort to personal attacks when they cannot answer a question - I notice you respond to the others on this forum as well as you do to my questions: you don't. Or can't.

I am not a Catholic basher - I have merely responded to *your* misinformation and attacks. I apologize to the others here if I have offended them, but hateful lies and untruths need to be opposed. By his postings, it is evident that Mr Chavez is full of them and does not know history, theology, law, current events, or the Gospel of Christ.

And he then tries to hide this by personal attacks in the place of facts or Truth.

Mr Chavez: look up the 'Albigensian Crusade' if you would like an example of the Catholic Church's Holy Wars where a Pope ordered the slaughter of thousands of Christians. Look up the many wars of the 'Holy Roman Empire' for 1000 years of history. Let's not forget the Crusades either. There *are* many examples, unfortunately.

But again, I do not hold these to be the responsibility of the Church in general - merely ill-informed people within the Church who let power corrupt them - even Popes! But this is not within the Church's teachings, or at least not within Christ's message. And those same Church teachings I agree are in accord with Christ's Message - except where they have been wrongly interpretted and then acted upon by corrupt individuals, ignoring the discernment of the Holy Spirit of Love.

I am happy to see others in this forum also oppose the untruths spouted by this fellow and I can tell by their posts that they, too, search for Truth in the context of their Church.

I will now choose to completely ignore Mr chavez's postings and call upon all others here to do the same so that a rational discussion can occur - one that is rooted in Christ's Message of tolerance and love, understanding and wisdom. Let him post! But don't respond.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar38@hotmail.com), November 06, 2003.

ASH --I don't want you to respond. Keep your empty responses. Find some unbiased history books. Don't come by like the dog in the manger giving history lessons. If my posts are confrontational, it's plainly because you ARE a Catholic-basher. That's as plain as a wart on your nose!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

More light fellows, less heat.

I am surprised, though... Considering most Masons I have known, I would have thought they leaned more towards the right wing of the political spectrum rather than the left. Granted, the choice between Franco and Stalin isn't much of a choice.

Or are we entering the territory of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 06, 2003.

The choice between Stalin's Comintern and Franco; ? ? ? A clear vote for the right, IMHO.

Franco invaded no one's territory. He had a cause, the Masons and communists had one: world domination. Do you know anything about Spain you didn't read in leftist media? Do you know more than 1/4 million Jews escaped the holocaust by entering Franco's Spain? He gave them shelter. He was a Catholic Jew.

Masons were all to the ultra left in that war; which was won with enormous sacrifices by Spain's Catholics. Here comes this Master of Deceit to call them ''murderers''--? Mr. Fretz-- ! Take off the blinders.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

OK. It seems we are moving back to information.

Within two clicks of the mouse, there was no trouble confirming part of what you said, Gene.

In the Congressional Record of January 24, 1950, Rep. Abraham Multer quotes a spokesman for the Joint Distribution Committee: "During the height of Hitler's blood baths, upwards of 60,000 Jews had been saved by the generosity of Spanish authorities."

But, as easy as that path was to find, there still is no credible proof or evidence that the Masons are out to take over the world. After all, both the communists and fascists said out loud that they were out to take over the world – and their leadership was as about as secret as you could get.

Again, proof matters.

PS – How did Franco view his “Jewish background?”

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 06, 2003.

Robert:
An odd remark of yours, ''Second, The rebuttal that secrecy has prevented Masonic criminal behavior from coming to light is not historically realistic.'' Can only be a naive kind of rebuttal,

If it didn't ''come to light, that proves nothing. The Mafia as lately as the 50's was adamantly denying it had ''historical reality.'' Now it has ''come to light'' their ''brotherhood'' La Cosa Nostra was not only real but a secret society which murders witnesses right and left.

These secret societies don't come to light precisely on account of their jealous hold over a silent membership.

And let's be frank: I don't appreciate your blase comparison of that evil with the Society of Jesus and the Catholic College of Cardinals. I can't buy your satire.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

Franco made no secret of his Jewish blood. The very surname is Jewish. He had Catholic roots too, and that was his religion; but over 225,000 Jews found refuge in his country; YES, against the Nazis who helped him bombard the communist enemy. Franco never had dreams of any fascist state, he was a Catholic loyal to the old royal family, like many good Spaniards. That's why today Spain has its parliamentary monarchy /

If you doubt the ''Republicans'' carried out an overt plan, extermination of priests and nuns during the Civil War, do another search. There's enough documentation today in the Internet. There was also a NYT Book Review article in which my ex-boss's communist father, an Italian hit- man killed dissidents within the Republican rank and file, because they recoiled at the left's atrocities. The New York Times! Hardly a bastion of the right.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

I found several web sites that listed the parties involved with the SCW. They are as follows: THE NATIONALISTS The Carlists The Catholic Church The Falange – (fascists) The Monarchists THE REPUBLICANS The Anarcho-Syndicalists The Basques The Catalans The Communists (Stalinists) The Marxists – (Anti Stalinists) The Republicans The Socialists

By the list above, it is obvious this was no simple civil war between two distinct sides – each sub-group seems to have had their own agenda in the midst of their common cause.

But, it seems, no Masons.

There were plenty of documented atrocities on both sides of the aisle – each, it seemed worse than the last. Alas, in our human history, we have been much more hurtful to the very people we should have loved.

Actually, this will be my departure from the conversation. I’ll keep my eye open for proof that supports the above accusations against Freemasons, but the burden still remains upon those who make the charges. Not hearsay, not rumor, not innuendo, but proof. But, I urge everyone who continues to keep calm spirit and a loving heart.

Peace

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 06, 2003.

Not hearsay, not rumor, not innuendo, but proof.

Sounds like Mickey Cohen, saying ''There's no Mafia at all.'' to the Senate Rackets commitee. It's a secret society, for God's sake! It operates clandestinely! You ought to make it your project. I recommend ''The Cypresses Believe In God'', by Jose Maria Gironella, Spanish novelist of the 50's. One of the many eye-witnesses.

You won't hear the truth from the left. Nor from the ''Lincoln Brigade'' of Earnest Hemingway. All of them were fellow-travellers in 1939. Remember that? Fellow-travellers?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

Last time, honest.

Gene, whether you realize it or not, you make my point. The mob and the klan were taken down following those very rules of evidence and proof. Why should the Masons (American Citizens) expect less from the Constitution that protects us all? Have a good night.

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 06, 2003.

Eugene,

I am neither Catholic nor anti Catholic. I believe in God as the Supreme Being. I'm 67 years old and a First Nation North American.

I have no religious axe to grind. I simply observe and report on the things I see around me. I believe that truth is important and deliberate ignorance is deplorable.

In traveling around the world, I've discovered and studied amazing historical events that I never dreamed occured.

I have experienced lies and truths. People use lies to perpetuate themselves in power. That's a human charactistic, even if subsequently the liars are elevated to positions of reverence. Other people welcome lies to support implausable assertions.

Do you believe that Mohammed was born from the bowels of a man? That Islamic "Truth" is believed by more people in the world than believe that Jesus' Mother had an intact hymen (a virgin).

I've been to the Tower of Constance and Dacau. It's difficult to see much difference between the perpetrators of both events.

Eugene, please open your mind. Let some fresh air sweep through your brain.

Tedeuscong

-- tedeuscong (tedeuscong@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

In all seriousness, this conversation has done little to illuminate. (R. Fretz)

With all due respect, sir, this Catholic forum does not exist in order to be subject to a Protestant minister's reprimands. Robby, when you come here and spend time in the presence of Catholic truth, you can rest assured that you will be "illuminated" far more than in your dank Calvinist basement, so full of gaps and errors.

If you don't like what you read here, don't complain. Suffer through it or leave. We aren't here to please you, pal.

Emeraude, after my last post (which was for Ash), you stuck your Left-Coast wazoo into the picture with a post that started like this -----

Everything cannot possibly come down to knowledge and ignorance[, B.S.D.] . It's a liberal methodology to think as much.

First, go bother someone else, not me. Second, try to speak intelligible English. I swear that after reading two sentences of yours that made no sense, I figured that you were on another acid trip, so I skipped the rest of your post. Clean up your act, Sinsemilla-Man.

-- B.S.D. (Bull@Spit.Detector), November 06, 2003.

Ted,
I'm going on 66; with a mind that's never closed. If it seems to you I'm just flaming the Masons and not interested in truth, forgive me. You're mistaken.

You say you haven't any axe to grind, and you aren't anti-Catholic. Presumably because you're friends with Masons that are Catholics. OK; why would I call your statements false?

One: You didn't enter the forum with an axe to grind, perhaps; but to stand up for Freemasonry. Yet, didn't the axe show very quickly? You're not anti-Catholic; but isn't it true you immediately insulted all Catholic priests and nuns as soon as the subject of Spanish priests and nuns arose? Giving this forum a taste of anti-Catholic bile? Nuns who sold themselves for a bar os soap? Not very respectful, Ted! You know all the price tags of a brothel possibly. But you don't know the love of Jesus Christ. It isn't for sale.

Two: You didn't think you'd have to get mean and filthy when you entered. Only, you just did. If I baited you into committing that blunder, I'm glad. Because it shows ua all what kind of vile background you come from.

This is common anti-Catholicism as demonstrated over centuries by the ''enlightened'' elite. You really think all Catholics are stupid and you're an intellectual. --I feel sorry for you. Life may soon be over for you and the secret handshake won't get you any favors afterwards / Ciao !

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 06, 2003.

Gene, Who said anything about Nuns? Not me.

I came into this web site following a lead on information about Mary Magdalen and spotted this thread on Masons. I just wanted to tell you that the stuff you are spouting about Masons is uninformed garbage. There were some Masons who were politically active, ie. George Washington, Paul Revere, Garibaldi, Simon Bolivar, etc., but every modern Mason I've met is just a good man trying to be a better man. My Father-in-law is a very active Grand Knight in the KOC and I attend KOC functions on a regular basis.

-- tedeuscong (tedeuscong@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

ps Gene,

Two of my good friends are Catholic Priests, both former military chaplains. One is a Benedictine and the other a Diocesian (sp?) Priest. (One friedship began in 1973 when we were in Panama, and one since 1988 at Johnston Atoll)

I just called them each on the phone and based on their long term knowledge of me, and in spite of the fact that I am not a Catholic, their opinions were that I am not going to Hell.

So I guess that anything you have to say about me falls into the "Sticks and Stones" catagory.

When was the last time you allowed a fresh thought to enter your head sufficient to change your mind about anything important?

-- tedeuscong (tedeuscong@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

'' my early memories in Spain . . in 1955, was of a fat Spanish Catholic Priest aboard our merchant ship in Valencia with 2 young women.''

The priest was a Pimp (capital p-?) for the 2 women who went from room to room having sex with most of the unlicensed crew members in exchange for 2 bars of soap or 2 packs of cigarettes. The ship's local agent confirmed that the man was indeed a priest.--''

Good! You said nothing about nuns; and those 2 women were just prostitutes. You say this was a Catholic priest? Because the agent averred it? Fine; he could have been.

Tell us why you find it apropos of this thread to bring up an ordained pimp? I associated the 2 women with the Church as well; and I give thanks to God they weren't!

Do YOU? ? ? ? Yeah, in a pig's eye! Don't go on & on about all your Catholic friends and connections. If a priest someplace told you you wouldn't have to go to hell he is upholding the truth. No man can judge who will certainly go to hell. You aren't Catholic, so the ex- communication isn't a worry to you. Are you anti-Catholic? I believe you have to be, to hold any serious Masonic faith. Your philosophy is counter to all the tenets of Catholic faith, and you are not averse to insulting the Catholic priesthood.

This was an automatic reaction on your part; being a Mason-- when I said the lodges in Spain collaborated with communists during the Civil War. You immediatley held a Catholic priest up to scorn. A Spanish priest.

But if we say the Mafia is a secret society as if you were the mafioso, you protest? Why, Ted? The Masons around the world are IN FACT a Mafia! You can't deny it. This is not a false premise; everybody knows how Masonic lodges initiate one another, perpetuate themslves and exert authority on their membership. Not at all different from Mafia ritual. The Mafia also carries on legitimate enterprise, with some of their public resources. Just a separate department. Masons do legitimate works like that, while in some places within their infrastructure they clandestinely serve the devil.Is that too harsh? Why don't you have me silenced? I'm just an old man. My email address is above; you could have me traced. Surely there's an obedient cell you can employ, to find me and eliminate me. It can all be done secretly, My Friend. --I'm not afraid. Your Catholic friends in the world can't find out.

But God will know, you see. Just as he knows about everything evil in this world.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.

Gene, When the Soprano’s goes off the air, do you suppose HBO will replace it with “The Masons”?

They can be driving around in their 1999 La Sabres, getting into turf battles with the Knights of Columbus. I can see it now, a dozen guys over 70, half with tuxedos and white leather aprons and the other with feathered cocked hats and blunt sabers.

The suspense….

Have a good weekend Gene and take it easy.

Peace

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), November 07, 2003.

I've never watched that show. I have no admiration at all for Mafiosos. Even The Godfather, which is a superb movie, turns me off.

No, it's not as if Freemasons would conspire at every turn against me; or the people of God. I have warm feelings in my heart for at least one Shriner.

I believe in principle Freemasonry is opposed to everything holy. Many excellent people join; and it disillusions me. Why?

Let's say the devil is always beneath the surface. Those good men on the surface don't acknowledge him; but they are caught up in an impious compact. Not like Faust; who sold his soul. More like stockholders. They have a stake in the company, and the company lies to them, and tells them they're rich. Instead they're spiritually poor; and may often be accomplices united against the followers of Jesus Christ. Satan would love to see Freemasons everywhere. They're so WILLING, to seduce and be seduced. It's all under the surface. What you can't see is trivial, when you have unswerving loyalty to a Master, as they are called. If it were in the light, you could say --Hold on! Let me think it over!

Satan doesn't want his tools to think it over. The Sopranos don't. They always make you that deal; the one you won't be able to refuse.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.

I haave read,"The Spanish Arena", by William Foss, and Cecil Geraghty. It was written Circa 1940, and tell the truth about Franco. The man was vilified unjustly, and was a true George Washington of Spain. He was mot a murderer, but rather itwas theLoyalists who werethe vicious slaughterers of hundreds of thousands of the Spanish people.

-- Bubbles (9999@444.com), November 07, 2003.

All I know is that when I became Catholic, I've been ridiculed, laughed at, taken advantage of, people have torn me down psychologically and emotionally, you name it. But I won't change; the prize is too great.

-- Nobody Special (hkjdashsdakj@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.

Just out of curiousity, what made you convert to Catholicism?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 28, 2003.

"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:11-12)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 28, 2003.

Last Word : )

-- Ash (ashlar38@bbb.org), September 07, 2004.

Natura abhorret a vacua.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 07, 2004.

"Secret Societies are forbidden to Catholics"

BS!

The Knights of Columbus is the CC's answer to the Masons. With all that stuff that the masons have, but a Catholic Church based org. Anything said about one is likely to be reflected in the other, with the exception of one trying to be as general in regards to religion as the US constitution is, and the other being specific as to religion.

Not a Mason, not a KoC.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), September 09, 2004.

"You didn't think you'd have to get mean and filthy when you entered. Only, you just did. If I baited you into committing that blunder, I'm glad. Because it shows ua all what kind of vile background you come from"

which would show to anyone exactly what *you* have come from, right? Did you really want to have gone there??

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), September 09, 2004.

Forms of debate points to the Masons.

The masons and their supporters looked like adults, calm good arguements. With a few exceptions, the Catholics looked either like kids calling names or like the sterotype of a fundy confronted with a address of 666 whatever.

Again, did you really want this to have happened?

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), September 09, 2004.

Sean, I'm not a KOC but I have friends who are, and it's nothing like the Masons. Basically it's just an excuse for them to have a few beers and talk about sport with their buddies. Sure the KOC have their own peculiar ceremonies and rituals. So do the Lions Club. The KOC is "the Church's answer to the Masons" only in the sense that one of the reasons for founding the KOC was to try to combat the Masons' tactics of secretly blackballing Catholics from any progress in business, professional, financial and other spheres. The KOC do this not by being a secret society themselves (and certainly not by setting up a rival secret religion) but by creating opportunities for Catholic business and professional men to (openly) give each other a helping hand when they have been unfairly blocked by Masons or other bigots.

As regards the US Constitution, it's secret socities like the Masons which thumb their nose at the principles of free interaction between citizens enshrined in our country's constitution and laws.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 15, 2004.

Steve, you are an ignorant man. You know absolutely nothing of the Knights of Columbus. You admit to not being in the Knights of Columbus, you thus never attend their meetings, thus rendering you ignorant as to what they do. Being a Knight myself, I have many times been witness to the fact that they are honorable men, and have contributed mass amounts of charitable funds and service to the Church, society at large, and especially to the less fortunate. Do not pass judgment on that of which you know nothing, lest you face judgment yourself.

-- Dan (eirelefougueux@aol.com), October 25, 2004.