okay, so heres the deal. somebody asked me about this the other day and i had absolutely no clue what the person was talking about. so, i want answers from catholics on what our church believes in this area... non catholics need not apply, if you will.

apparently, the person i was talking to had read some document which tried to prove that the nephalim (referenced in genesis???) were the offspring of angels who had mated with human women. of course, i had always thought of angels as being a different type of creature, so this seems to me like trying to mate a dog with a horse. The verse, i believe includes "and then the sons of God saw the daughters of man, and saw that they were beautiful..." if that helps anyone in finding the reference im talking about.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 02, 2003

Answers

bump for catholics to answer

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 02, 2003.

toppings again to overcome faiths ridiculous number of anti catholic posts on other threads

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 02, 2003.

Actually there isn't a reference to this in Genesis from what I know of it. This actually comes from a book called "Enoch." The Book of Enoch is from The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), November 02, 2003.

okay, so the reference is in enoch, but can any catholic provide me with a clear interpretation by the church on this matter... john? paul M? come on guys, i know you know where to find an answer on this better than i do.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAdress.com), November 03, 2003.

paul h, Actually, this is from Genesis (6:1-4)

1 When men began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair; and they took to wife such of them as they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. 5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Unfortunately, I do not understand these verses. I do remember this was discussed on this forum a while ago. I'll go do some googling and hopefully will post the thread. In the meantime, I would also welcome some Catholic understanding of these verses.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), November 03, 2003.

Here's one: Link 1

Actually, that's all I found.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), November 03, 2003.

"toppings again to overcome faiths ridiculous number of anti catholic posts on other threads"

What??

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), November 03, 2003.

I have read this verse, and though not catholic, I know the basic interpretations. Presentedbelow...

1: Angels came and mated with Humans. Based on the "Sons of God" being the angels in Job, and other Jewish works ( Like the Book fo Enoch) this theory holds the popular imagination. But isnt as diginitive as it sounds.

The thery goes that the angels, at least the fallen ones, came to mate with huamn women.

2: Sons of God could be a title given to the righeous seed of Seth, whose daughters married decendants of Cain.

3: Sons of God may not refer to bloodline, but rather to those who kept the commandments of God pre-flood. ( thus, the "Sons of God" woudl eb the righeous and the "Dauthers fo men" woudl be htose traped in Pagan idolatires.)

4: Another theory is that Adam was not he Only man, on,ly the first of a type of men. This theory is based on the Genesis account that diverges, and asserts that men where created ont he sixth day, and Adam after the seventh. In tis event, the Sons of God coudl be the children of Adam, and hi decent, and the daughters of men the daughters of the other nonadamic races of men.

Sorry, those are the usual interpretatiosn I know.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 03, 2003.

Thanks, Glenn, for linking that old thread. I do remember that discussion.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 03, 2003.

The reference to the Nephilim happen several times throughout the Bible, beginning in Genesis and refered to again later in the New Testament (Jesus speaking of end times being like the times of Noah, and later in the book of Jude where it refers to the angels falling).

The Catholic church does not accept or recognize the interpretation of the Nephilim as being the sons of Angels and mortal women. They state that the son's of God refered to the line of Seth breeding in with the line of Cain, creating monstrosities on the earth.

I, however, am not Catholic, and take the verses quite literally. The reason being Job's use of the term Son's of God, while refering to the angels gathering together, with Satan in their midst.

As legend has it, the Watchers (or the Grigori to most Catholic's who've looked into this apochryphal subject) had already noticed man's sin on the earth, and went to complain about it to God. Rumor has it that God explained to them that were they in the same scenario, the same would happen. Somehow, later on, two hundred angels (Watchers) fell from Heaven and landed atop Mount Hermon. Their leaders were believed to be Shemihaza (alternate spellings) and Azazel (Azrael, etc.). There the angels swore an oath to complete their actions under threat of a curse, hence Mount Hermon becoming Mount Hermon by name. It is intersting to note that this is also supposed to be the mountain where Jesus went with the disciples and the Transfiguaration occured, witnessed by Moses and Elijah.

It didn't take long for the Watchers to lapse into sin, mainly because of their lust for human women. In order to gain their favor, the angels shared secret, Heavenly knowledge with the women in order to seduce them. The fruits were evil, either way you looked at it. Their children became evil giants, who went about killing on the earth, and were the first to eat of flesh and blood (since this wasn't sanctioned by God until After the Flood). They swept across the earth, killing, raping and pilaging until God heard the cried of humanity. It is this point where we enter Noah, the ark and the coming flood.

When you read the translations of Genesis, it's important to understand that when they refer to Noah as blameless, and pure, they were refering to his blood line. This gives you an indication that Noah, his wife and his sons were the only people left on the earth who's bloodline had not been tainted by the nephilim blood in their veins.

There are later references to these beings again, after the flood. And even the verses we have in Genesis lead us to believe that this isn't the only instance of Nephilim being upon the earth. Read up on the Emim and the other races of giants later refered to in the Old Testament. Usually you'll find them traced to the line of Og, the King of Bashan. According to Jewish Folklore, NOah preserved Og, King of Bashan, and he was secured to the top of the ark and carried off into the world because of some service that he rendered unto Noah.

You may be wondering why the nephilim would even be considered that big of a deal. But if you look to the promise uttered to Eve after the fall from Eden, you'll see that it was prophecied that the son of a woman would smite the devil. Had the nephilim blood fully penetrated all of humanity before the Flood, all hope of any Jesus later on would have been lost.

So, there you go. Sorry that I'm not Catholic, but I have done a bit of studying on the subject. Feel free to email me with any further questions, comments, etc.

Thanks, Jennifer Gibbs

-- Jennifer Gibbs (arimark@earthlink.net), November 06, 2003.

The correct interpetation of this verse is the origin of the Nephilim is apparently a fragment of an old legend that had borrowed much from ancient mythology. The sacred author incorporates it here, not only in order to account for the prehistoric giants of Palestine, whom the Israelites called the Nephilim, but also to introduce the story of the flood with a moral orientation-----the constantly increasing wickedness of mankind. The sons of heaven: literally "the sons of the gods" or "the sons of God".....the celestial beings of mythology. In reference to --My Spirit: the breath of life referred to in Gn.2,7. His days...years: probably the time GOd would still let men live on earth before destroying them with the flood, rather than the maximum span of life God would allot to individual men in the future. As well as latter: According to Nm 13,33, when the Israelites invaded Palestine and found there the tall aboriginal Anakim, they likened them to the Nephilim. Perhaps the huge megalithic structures in Palestine were thought tohave been built by a race of giants, whose superhuman strength was attributed to semi-divine origin. The heroes of old, the men of renown: would be the legendary worthies of ancient mythology.

-- martina (tinanorks@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

Martina, is there some reason for your wanting us to think that you wrote your message -- rather than giving credit to the author? Your message is a composite of footnotes from the New American Bible, right? Please don't forget to give credit where credit is due.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

J.F.Gecik Thought we were all on the same page,I guess not. Nobodys taking credit for anything. So let me spell it out just for you----taken from The New American Bible page 9 Genesis 6,1-4. Glad to see you read your bible.

martina

-- martina (tinanorks@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.