Isn't this the truth...

Conservatives are the guys who don't want to change, such as Leferbves/St. Pius tenth society.

Liberals are the guys that want change but on their own terms based on their personal spiritual and intellectual genius

Orthodox are the guys that are poor in spirit, humble enough to accept the Magisterium and doctrine of the Church.

I believe we should all strive to be Orthodox in outlook. So for example, if the Church suddenly allowed woman priests then we should accept it in faith and humility. If one questions any doctrine of the Church then why not question all doctrine? If even one doctrine is not true then surely the Holy Spirit is no longer with the Magisterium?

P.S. I'm in South Africa, diff. time zone, hence I won't be on the net at USA day time and won't be able to partake in discussion.

-- Franc (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), November 12, 2003

Answers

Jmj

Hello, Franc.
This is not a "real-time" chatting board. Therefore, you WILL be "able to partake in discussion," even if your messages come hours or days or weeks after others have posted.

I agree with most of what you stated. However, a couple of clarifications are needed ...

1. You wrote: "I believe we should all strive to be Orthodox in outlook."
Please use a lower-case "o" in "orthodox," to distinguish orthodox Catholics from members of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

2. You wrote: "So for example, if the Church suddenly allowed woman priests then we should accept it in faith and humility."
Please seek a different hypothetical for your example, because the one you used is impossible. The Church has already declared that its teaching on men/women and priesthood is infallible and thus could never change.

Welcome to you, Franc, and all other orthodox Catholics.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

John

Thanks for the welcome.

I used the woman priests example as I wanted to make a point that one should follow the Church no matter what, even if it seems impossible. I know the Church will never ordain priests, it isn't going to happen unless the Pope proclaims it ex- cathedra, am I right?

Of course in the past the Pope made a teaching definitive to counter heresies or such problems. It was already a belief. In this context we know that the Church has never ordained woman and has moved decisively to counter any suggestion that it should.

John, I am part of a group started 9 years ago called Ecclesia Speramus (In the Church we trust). I started it with other orthodox Catholic friends hungry to growth in knowledge and faith.

This is a great forum!

-- Franc (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), November 13, 2003.

The ordination of women, if it could happen, would not involve an ex-cathedra statement. However, as John said it cannot happen because it is an article of the faith, binding on the Church for all time, that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

Thanks, Franc, for calling the forum "great." (It has its less-than-great moments!)

No pope will ever proclaim, "ex cathedra," that women could be ordained. Several years ago, the Church stated that the pope's teaching on this subject was infallible, according to the "Ordinary and Universal Magisterium." This teaching authority (of all bishops everywhere in their home dioceses, united with the pope) has been exercised, in Church history, hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

"Several years ago, the Church stated that the pope's teaching on this subject was infallible, according to the "Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.""

John, if you know of a website that documents this, I would appreciate it.

I believe this has always been an infllible teaching of the Church. The idea of a female "priest" is repulsive to me. I have often wondered why, though.

What is the essential difference between men and women? It is not the "plumbing", I think, because that is only usefull in procreation, and in heaven we will not procreate, so it will no longer have any meaning. So there must be something else, which among other things dictates why women are not permitted as clergy, but I've never been able to figure out what it is.

I think I'll start a new thread called "The difference between men and women: Church's teaching" to see if anyone has thoughts on this.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 14, 2003.

Jmj

Psyche, you wrote: "So there must be something else, which among other things dictates why women are not permitted as clergy, but I've never been able to figure out what it is."

But you don't need "to figure out" such things. Only Protestants have "to figure out" everything for themselves. You just need to keep up with Church documents. If you shy away from the Church, ignoring post-Pius-XII writings, you will be incompletely informed.

A key document by Pope John Paul II speaks about women and the male-only clergy. Then, a follow-up document from the Curia makes clear that the pope had delivered a doctrine that has always been infallibly true.

I'll go into this again (with links to the documents) in the new thread you started.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.