Did anyone here of the reconstruction of the Fatima Shrine to change to an interfaith where all religions can worship pagan gods? Supposedly traditional Catholics were called names and such....this came about thru Vatican reps and the UN in Protugal at their ecumeanical meeting.....what is happening to our Church? I agree these Vat2 libs need to get out of our generation/////// Any one here about this? It was on the AOL Catholic/protestant board.

-- Pamela (rosylace@aol.com), November 13, 2003

Answers

Hello, Pamela.

Lest I stand accused of providing links to outlaw Traditionalist websites, here is a little blurb from the EWTN wensite about this horrendous crime. The priest who provided the response should be commended for his eloquent defense of the Faith.

Traditional Catholics in Portugal are the only ones to have offered any protest to what's going on there.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 13, 2003.

jake, there is one important thing to note about the page you linked:

IF THE ARTICLE IS ACCURATE and the intention is to turn Fatima into an inter-religious "centre where all the religions of the world will gather to pay homage to their various gods,"... so on and so forth.

IF THIS ARTICLE IS ACCURATE is the key phrase, however. given some of your lying indiscretions in the past regarding creation of false photos, submitting photos which you were aware we NOT taken at novus ordo functions, and furthermore propegating information which is more than clearly false...

i am more than certain that this is yet one more deceptive, filth filled misrepresentation of facts written by yet one more schismatic. namely, i am judging this article and its validity in direct relation to the deceptive behavior i have seen the schismatics here present time and again.

the article is not true. its either yet one more ultra conservative slander against the true church, or its just another fictional scare tactic created by the schismatics to try and prove their self serving motivations.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 13, 2003.

Hi, Pamela. Here's another online article about the Fatima scare. It includes a link detailing the proposed reconstruction.

The author calls Archbishop Lefebvre "schismatic," a controversial characterization. It shows where the author/web site is coming from, indicating it's not what paul h would call "yet one more schismatic" source.

the article is not true. its either yet one more ultra conservative slander against the true church, or its just another fictional scare tactic created by the schismatics to try and prove their self serving motivations.

This head-in-the-sand approach is astonishing.

Pamela, if you haven't already, make a pilgrimage to Fatima before the oecumenists defile it.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 13, 2003.

IF THIS ARTICLE IS ACCURATE is the key phrase, however.

Okay. Alleged horrendous crime, then.

creation of false photos

Really? url, please.

submitting photos which you were aware we NOT taken at novus ordo functions,

The beach mass? I wasn't aware at the time, and I later apologized. I have LOADS of photos of verifiable Novus Ordo stupidity. Wanna see?

Given the uncertain nature of the report, and having slammed me for presenting it as fact; you for some reason have no problem declaring that:

the article is not true.

when you don't know that to be the case, either.

I won't address your falsehoods and insults, except to ask you to please keep them coming. You people continue to be a great asset toward winning souls (including one vocation so far!!!)from the Novus Ordo pseudo-religion into Traditional Roman Catholicism.

-- jake (j@k.e), November 13, 2003.

"This head-in-the-sand approach is astonishing."

You're absolutely right, Jaime. Perhaps paul h is now going to tell us that the two "prayer gatherings" in Assisi never happened either.

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), November 13, 2003.

Has our Holy Father demoted the sacraments? Is he now throwing out the Apostles' Creed? Does the Church no longer believe the word of God?

Is the Church telling us,

You do not have to carry your cross
You have no need to pray
There IS no Faith, Hope and/or Love
We must not love our neighbor anymore.
We have no Saviour
There is no life in heaven or punishment in hell
The atheists were right / / /

Is this the Novus Ordo pseudo-Church you fellows love to hate?

Prove it to me. Save the megillah about shrines and prophesies and betrayals and conspiracies. In other words, Jake, Jaime, Nick-- Get a life!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 13, 2003.

You do not "know your scriptures" unless you have access to, and respect for, valid and authoritative interpretation. You may have your scriptures memorized, but "knowing your scriptures" means having an understanding of their true meaning, something that is not attainable through private interpretation.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

eugene c. chavez: "Has our Holy Father demoted the sacraments? Is he now throwing out the Apostles' Creed? Does the Church no longer believe the word of God?"

Well, demoted probably isn't the right word. Have some of them been altered? See "The Problem With the Other Sacraments" at http://www.coomaraswamy-catholic-writings.com/sacraments.htm

Since you included me in your "get a life" sentence, I will have to respond that I have a life, thank you very much. We're expecting our second child within a couple of weeks. Another traditionalist is about to join the ranks! :)

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), November 13, 2003.

"Paul...I think that the word *private* does not mean *personal* interpretation"

A: You are wrong. The terms are synonymous in this context.

"Your Church hierarchy interprets the Scriptures for you, and the people have zero say...and this interpretation is to the Catholic Church only. "

A: Yes, it is to the Catholic Church only, because many have left the Catholic Church for manmade religion. The Catholic Church is the universal Church, founded by Christ for all peoples in all times and places. He commanded the Catholic Church to "go forth and make disciples of ALL people. It doesn't get more public than that!

"The Jehovah Witnesses have their own *private* interpretation, as do the Mormons"

A: Of course they do! They are the fruit of the same manmade system you yourself are trapped in!

"Those institutions all follow the same pattern where they determine the meaning for the people and the people may not have a say"

A: Kind of like the system you use on this forum, right?

"if the people dare to object--they can be ex-communicated out!!"

A: You have already pronounced excommunication on Catholics who follow the One True Church.

"I study the Bible with many people and we have our Pastors and those gifted with prophesy and the ability to teach."

A: When the blind lead the blind, they both fall into the trap.

"That is exactly how the early church operated. They studied the Bible in each other's houses and they preached and taught the Word of God"

A: Yes, they preached the SAME Word of God that Jesus had preached to them. They studied the "Bible", that is, the Hebrew scriptures, but primarily they heard the teachings of Jesus Christ presented by the leaders of the Church He had founded, the leaders to whom Jesus had promised "he who hears you hears Me". Has anyone in your little group received a similar guarantee from Jesus? Why are the private interpretations of your little group any more valid than those of the little group from a different church who are meeting in the house across the street? Obviously, they are not - because that group has exactly the same authority as your group to interpret the Word of God - namely, none!

"No one was ex- communicated and they did it together."

A: No-one was excommunicated? Interpret this: "if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to THE CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, HAVE NOTHING MORE TO DO WITH HIM. (Matthew 18:16-17)

"I do not sit in my room and personally determine what the Scriptures mean. I am blessed with the Holy Spirit's guidance--but I would never presume to study only by myself."

A: Yeah OK. You are blessed with the Holy Spirit's guidance, and nobody else is. That sounds just a tad prideful. Every member of your whole chaotic tradition claims the same thing. But the facts speak for themselves - thousands of conflicting and contradictory interpretations. That isn't the Holy Spirit I know. The Holy Spirit guides one Church in unity and in truth, just as Christ said He would.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2003.

faith,

being a history buff, you remind me of china in vietnam. come to town, lose every battle, say "i win" and go home.

pretty much how each of your posts go.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 13, 2003.

Faith is just out of her league. In every single post her incapacity is exposed-- No response to the truth; pays no attention. She mangles the scriptures without scruples and says she's a Christian. But Christians have respect for the Word of God! A Christian looks on God's Word with awe. ''Faith'' does NOT. It's only a word to be dismissed when she disagrees, or distorted to make her own point. She has total disregard for God and truth.

After several days of this; having realised this person is incorrigible, we can come to only the simple conclusion: This is a possessed soul.

Satan drives the engine, she's not in control.

It's pitiful enough if a soul is invincibly ignorant, but ''Faith'' shows many signs of diabolic ingenuity. Not dumb, really. Not benighted. Not unprepared.

No-- Crafty. In tune with evil, ready to do combat. Ready to fight for Satan and the elimination of God's truth. Ready and able to defy Christ's Holy Church, and abuse the Word of God.

I never had met someone possessed before this. It's quite a new experience! We need a long look at ''Faith''. How do we tie her to a table? Who is going to hold her down? I'm not an exorcist-- She scares me.

I know: I'll pray!

Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with thee;
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death;
Amen!

Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin Mary!
Hell has come to this house
Bringing evil spirits to dishonor your holy Motherhood And the glory of your Holy Son Jesus Christ.
You have been our help in every time of sorrow and trial
Most Holy Virgin and Mother;
Beseech, we pray of Jesus Our Glorious Lord and Saviour,
The disgrace and expulsion of a devil presuming to enter His presence,
Under the false name of ''Faith''.

May Jesus Our Saviour let ''Faith'' and her devil depart upon command,
As those other evil spirits once did; passing from a victim into the herd of swine. Let this be, by your holy intercession,
Mother Most Holy; we pray. Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 13, 2003.

I don't know what the heck you could all be thinking!! But clearly..., if you know your Scriptures--then you can't be surprised at the fact that this apparition at Fatima is attracting all faiths. Mary is for everyone and her mission is to unite everyone under a One World Order/Religion. This is prophesied in the Scriptures in case no one told you.

We're right on course...............

What do you mean by this Faith. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

"What do you mean by this Faith. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?"

I was wondering the same; actually, not wondering, but just to posit something and leave it at that:

Faith most likely proposes to us something of the principle of a wedge as a solution. She possesses understandings of some things on one hand, and the lack thereof of others, believing to be able to severe everything down the middle for a solution. Perhaps in an innocent attempt to find truth or even the truth by it's negation, well, of all places in the middle.

But the way it will play out is that both the middle and the anti- thesis right back to the thesis, where the truth has always been, leaving two separate groups. One within, and one without.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

In other words, as St. Louis De Monfort would say:

"Do not be deceived; there are only two roads: one that leads to life and is narrow; the other that leads to death and is wide. There is no middle way."

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Indeed!

Do you believe the human founders of your manmade sect?

Do you believe your own private, unauthoritative interpretations of the Bible?

Or do you believe the biblical Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church of the Living God, which Christ said would receive the fullness of truth from the Holy Spirit?

Given those options, it's no contest for me.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

There's the rub, O ye of Little:

You don't believe. Catholics do.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2003.

"I don't believe the human founders of any man-made sect, including the human founders of your man-made religion"

A: Oh, quite the contrary. The very center of your whole approach to Christian faith are the manmade 16th century doctrines of sola fide, sola scriptura, and private interpretation, ideas which no Christian on earth had ever heard of before that time. These constitute the very foundation of Protestantism, and anyone who ascribes to them is thereby Protestant. You are essentially a follower of Luther, whether you know it or not, though you certainly are toting around plenty of baggage added by other equally unqualified persons. It is their traditions that define who you are, Faith, not the teachings of Jesus Christ. You are deceiving yourself.

"I don't believe any private interpretation because it leads to religion., like yours or the Jehovah Witnesses or the Mormons..etc... "

A: Since you don't have any interpretations other than your own private ones (or private ones of other individuals who have taught them to you), it necessarily follows that private interpretation is your only guide. You can't use what you don't have.

"I only ascribe to biblical Christianity"

A: Here we go again. YOU ascribe to biblical Christianity. Lutherans, Baptists, Menonites, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Methodists, etc. therefore do NOT Ascribe to biblical Christianity because their beliefs conflict with yours, and of course the Bible cannot conflict with itself. Do you have any idea how egocentric and frankly, how irrational that sounds? If I were in your position, I would say to myself, "I CAN'T be following biblical Christianity because I am in the middle of this chaotic mass of denominations, all claiming to be biblical, yet all conflicting with one another". That would be a logical response, given the obvious evidence. You seem to think that this doesn't apply to you because you don't pledge loyalty to any single established denomination. What you don't seem to realize is that this makes you a NEW denomination, defined by a NEW set of beliefs, taken by private interpretation of the beliefs of other denominations. And so it goes, one split after another.

"I believe that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Living God-- the Word become flesh--Jesus Christ, who is revealed to us in the Scriptures"

A: Well, I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and the Bible says that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth. (1 Tim 3:15) But then, I have nothing to lose by accepting the ENTIRE Bible, since it was put together by my Church, and therefore cannot contain anything contrary to my faith. You on the other hand have a great deal to lose by accepting the Bible in its entirety - but also a great deal to gain in the long run.

"His church is His body--we are His body...His body of believers. We are the true church of Jesus Christ., all who believe and have received Christ."

A: All who believe what? All who believe "something" about Christ? Or all who believe the absolute, complete, non-conflicting TRUTH about Christ? If you chose the second option, now is the time to flee from denominational religion, where fullness of truth is not possible.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

Hi paul I love my history as well,excuse the rant a bit off topic, but from memory China's role was more political//logistical/aid/ equipment etc. There is I dont think any evidence of Chinese millitary forces of any meanignful size ever even being deployed in SOuth Vietnam against the United States, so it beats me how they "lost" any battles at all!Besides the reason for Americas defeat is that thye never came to grips with the idea that in a guerilla war "battles" were not important,-they misunderstood where the real "battles" were being fought anyway. ACtually they misunderstood the Vietnamese people, their history and their culture but thats even further off track

Engineering and anti-aircraft artillery defensive forces were based around Hanoi in the North from 63 onwards-is that what you were talking about???

Perhaps it would be more apt to say to Faith

"you remind me of the United States in Vietnam! come to town, lose every battle, say "i win" and go home."

If anyone has Papal/Church documents regarding specifically America's role in the Vietnam war and morality of the war in Vietnam general etc I would be very intersted and grateful to read such documents if you could posts a link on another thread.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

A: So, everything we need to know and believe as Christians is contained in one sentence. Hmmm. That raises a couple of obvious questions. First, why did God give us a whole Bible if everything but one sentence is completely irrelevant to our lives as Christians and to our eternal salvation? Secondly, since Catholics clearly embrace every single word of your one-sentence gospel (after all, you found it in a Catholic book), WHY are you wasting your time here endlessly arguing about matters which by your own definition are completely unnecessary????

"Believe this and you will live.....recieve Him and you will have everlasting life!!"

A: OK! We believe it! We believe it! We are saved! Go bother someone else!

"By-the-way..., what I believe about the Bible is not new since Luther. There were always folks who understood the gospel as it was meant to be understood. There were always efforts to resist the lies that popped-up"

A: Yes, the Holy Catholic Church has always resisted heresies when they popped up. It is the mission of the Church as pillar and foundation of truth, to keep the truth complete, pure, and undefiled. However, the specific heresies which constitute the basis of your approach to Christianity were unheard of before the 16th century. They originated with Martin Luther, and no Christian on earth - not even earlier heretics - ever so much as suggested the absurd notion that the Bible could serve as the sole source of Christian truth; or that any individual person could reliably interpret the Word of God; or that faith could save anyone in the absence of works. These novel ideas originated at the same time as your Protestant tradition, and in fact serve as the base of the whole Protestant system. As such, anyone who ascribes to these foundational Protestant beliefs is Protestant. So, you are a follower of Luther, whether you realize it or not, though certainly tainted by many novel ideas from other sources. You seem to think that you are not part of the fragmented Protestant system just because you don't claim to belong to a previously-organized denomination. You don't realize that this makes you a new denomination, with a new and unique set of beliefs which separates you from all the other denominations. Your denomination may be small, but so was Luther's when he first left the Church of God.

"The original church in the early days began to experience division almost immediately. Jesus warned about it. Paul warned about it."

A: Indeed Jesus did warn about it, and the plague He prophecied descended upon the earth with a vengeance in the 16th century, as people, "not willing to accept sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, began to accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires" - just as the Word of God predicted. (2 Timothy 4:3)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

"just because you think that the Roman Catholic Church is the one religion that maintained the truth--rather than being part of the deception--is just your opinion"

A: No, it is not "just my opinion". It is biblical FACT that Jesus promised His Church it would teach the fullness of truth. And it is historical FACT that the Catholic Church is the Church He founded. Anything you happen to believe to the contrary is "just your opinion", and an opinion which contradicts all the known facts, both biblical and historical.

"I know this because you contradict the very Scriptures that you purport to uphold"

A: As I have pointed out innumerable times, Catholic teaching CANNOT contradict the Bible because the Catholic Church compiled the Bible, placing in it only early writings that professed its teachings. Catholic teaching may well conflict with your private interpretations of the Bible, but so what? They are completely unauthoritative, just your opinions.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2003.

The Church doesn't claim to have ''determined'' the canon. the canon was revealed to the Church in council by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, God is not only the Author of the Bible, but has selected each book to be named in the canon, --and --ruled against those books that do not belong. The Church has given the canon to her faithful, with the certitude of its inspired truth.

Her word can be taken as the seal of authenticity; because Christ gave His Church all authority in the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever she binds is bound also in heaven (ratified), and whatever she looses is loosed in heaven.

She holds the scales of inspiration which cannot be denied. The Church's authority by acting as Christ's elect with power to know and declare (prophesy) the Word of the Holy Spirit in the world. An authority no other church can claim, or back up. She claims it and her works back it up. The Bible is just one of them.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2003.

Hi, Kiwi

I rember a few threads on Vietnam and Catholic teaching:

I looked for you but it appears as if they are wiped out. I am sorry to say, but any thread that Chris B ever posted in is deleted.

I think every thread that he ever posted in is "trashed". The threads are gone!

-- - (David@excite.com), November 14, 2003.

Hi David, thankyou, I do recall asking this question to Chris as well but never recall him finding any information beyond a few encyclicals on communisim not directly related to the war.

God bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), November 14, 2003.

no, kiwi,

i was not talking about us declaring victory in vietnam, as we all know that we lost. in fact, for us you might say we won every battle (because we did) and we still declared that we lost.

no, china invaded vietnam as a control tactic as well. they lost almost every battle they fought. but THEY were smart enough to only stay a few months (before support drained) and then say "i win and go home.

thats what i was refering to...

and thats what faith reminds me of

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 15, 2003.

Would the Bible have been WRITTEN without the help of any man? Would the Thessalonians have received Paul's letters by "God's providence", even if he had never written them? The fact is the various writings which the Church saw fit to gather into a book would never have been written unless men - early leaders of the Catholic Church - cooperated with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Likewise the infallible canon of scripture would naver have become available unless men - early leaders of the Catholic Church - cooperated with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. AND, the canon they drew up, like any product of a Church Council, would never have been valid unless approved by the Pope.

Don't you see the contradiction in your theory?

Either God authored the Bible and saw to the canon.., or your church members did.

It can't be both. God's providence would follow through with or without the help of any man.

And like I keep telling you, the *church*--lower case *c*.., refered to in the New Testament, is not the Roman Catholic Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 15, 2003.

You are the silly, ''Faith''--
''Don't you see the contradiction in your theory?''

What theory? It's recorded history, Madam. Plenty of documents exist. Many witnessed these events; even if you didn't. Just because you didn't witness anything doesn't make it false, nor theory. Everything you believe is pure theory. Or should I qualify that?-- ''impure theory'', corrupted faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 15, 2003.

Jmj

After having skimmmed the bottom 2/3 of this thread, I am left wondering ...

How in the name of holy Heaven has the "church-of-Christ" proselytizer named "Faith" NOT yet been banned???

The continued, useless presence of the Four Schismatic Stooges at this forum is an example of sheer stupidity ... and the continued, useless presence of "Faith" is an example of absolute idiocy! This "Faith" and the mind-numbed robots who continue to debate him have been over the same ground about twenty times in one month. The "Stooges" and the mind-numbed robots who continue to debate them have been over the same ground about 263 times in over twenty months. How can any of you knuckleheads think that you are doing God's will?????????????????

What the hell good is this forum, when such human debris are permitted to flourish and occupy hours and hours of the time of some of the most knowledgable Catholics here -- WHO OUGHT TO BE ANSWERING SINCERE QUESTIONS ON LEGITIMATE THREADS ?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I DEMAND to know what is going on here!

Why are these anti-Catholic scum allowed to post messages here -- day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year?

This place is enough to make a sane and orthodox Catholic puke. Who is running this forum -- a few gutless, wimpish, debate addicts -- who allow the anti-Catholic doofuses to keep coming here -- so that they, the addicts, can get their daily fix of verbal victory? Has this formerly beautiful place been taken over by people who treat the anti-Catholics as playthings -- not caring how their sickening actions are damaging everyone (and driving me nearly crazy to boot)?

STOP IT, YOU STUPID JERKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GET RID OF THESE PEOPLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May God have mercy on you for your horrible sins of the past. Start to make amends now by banning The Four Stooges and "Faith."

JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.

''Faith''
John doesn't make us proud. He stinks to high heaven and all I pray is he'll confess these sinful things he's now saying when he's sorry. He definitely will be! Whatever his interior problem is-- we know what yours is. You're a heretic. Maybe well-meaning, maybe evil. I personally think the devil has caught you.

So, ''leading you to Jesus is what comes with time & opportunity. You give us the opportunity and let's first pull you out of the devil's grasp. I know you'll feel much different when you're freed.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 17, 2003.

Trouble is, the truth is in front of your nose. But you reject it. That's why I blame your Master. A friend of free lance Christians, he's called Legion /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 17, 2003.