Dear Emerald,

I have read quite a number of your posts. It seems quite obvious that you have a genuine concern for the future of the Catholic Church. It appears to me that you believe that the Church is declining because of Novus Ordo/Vatican II/Modernism. Please correct me if I'm wrong in places ppl, I'm typing this very quickly because I have to go out.

Emerald, although I'm not very authoritative on the subject of the magisterium, I will say to you this.

First I acknowledge that you have received very harsh treatment for your concerns. For the most part you have responded in a dignified way. I would suppose that your statements have been regarded as heretical and divisive hence the treatment you've received.

Basically I'd say this. If you're going to be a Catholic, I think you need to be more consistent. Either you trust in the magisterium of the church or you do not. If you do trust them, (which I doubt), you would never question the direction that Vatican II has taken, because according to the Catholic theology, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic church, that it's doctrines will stand the test of time etc. You seem to be worried that the church is going down cos the magisterium are misleading catholic believers.

If this is your feeling, why are you still a Catholic ? You should be a protestant. And I say that with all due respect. On the other hand, if you place your faith in the leading of the Catholic church as the unchanging sound church, then you should follow the leading of VII without hesitation shouldn't u ?

Our opinions or feelings in our tummy as to whether the new mass looks good or not according to our fallen human concepts should never ever ever come into the equation.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 17, 2003

Answers

Have you noticed The Thread Restorer in the - gift to priest - thread? I just read this question in a post there and I would like to know what you think about it. It means the Thread Restorer has all the power over our threads - now, that's interesting.

-- Peter Budha (grayguy@visible.net), November 17, 2003.

Hi Oliver; I'm off to work quickly here, too, so a short one.

"Either you trust in the magisterium of the church or you do not."

The magisterium's job is, and always has been, to uphold the Deposit of the Faith and to administer the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, to be loyal to the Bride of Christ, the church, to be loyal to Her and protect Her.

This is different than simply trusting them as if their deviations for Catholic doctrine and practice were things that I am obliged to follow them into. My obligation, before all else, is to stand fast to the teachings of the Catholic Faith and remain faithful to Christ.

That's an honest answer, and a consistant one; faithfulness to the Faith.

As for the Protestants: to each and every Protestant out there who in any way seeks to know and live the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, they have my support and my hope that they will follow this good thing through to it's good conclusion. I apologize to you good people that our own House is in such disarray; I would invite you in anyways. Pardon the mess.

One more thing: I can see where this is going about the unfortunate thread-deleting episode in the forum; I feel like I might be pointed to for this as well. I can't help but feel a bit paranoid anymore. I did not do this act to the forum, nor do I have any knowledge whatsoever as to who did. I lost my threads and posts as well, and have no way to retrieve them except google's cached search. I haven't tried, because whether my participation has been deleted will not affect the truth, which always was, is and will be, whether I speak it or deny it.

Damaging the forum in a self-serving way such a deleting those threads would be an act completely inconsistant with the living of traditional Catholicism. Whoever it is, though, that person can be forgiven.

More later...

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 17, 2003.

"If you do trust them, (which I doubt), you would never question the direction that Vatican II has taken..."

Oliver,

I will speak for myself -I am obedient to the Magisterium EVEN though some are taking some pastoral aspects of Vatican II in directions disobedient to clear direction from the Magisterium... e.g. "Internal Forum Solution"... To follow your posited 'logic' -are you suggesting I be obedient to the disobedient to prove obedience?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), November 17, 2003.

Ok Daniel, I think my only response is that I'm now rather confused.I seem to be over my head on this subject. I think it's probably better I leave such matters to be discussed by authorities on the subject.

To Emerald, I re-read my original post and I must apologise. It is rather unfair that I should question your catholicity in the way that I did. You really do have a heart for the Catholic church and have many concerns about where it is headed. I would recommend you say amen to the Lord's call for you to come to Him and He would give your rest.

We who are weary in our hearts need the comforting, love of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think Emerald the problem becomes this. The forum was designed for the edification and encouragement of Catholics, as well as give a foyer if you will to the seekers into the Catholic faith.

As such, many many topics have been covered here in meticulous detail. There have been both negative and positive consequences of this. On the one hand, it has become a great source of knowledge to equip those who wish to better understand the teachings of the Catholic church. On the other hand, it has also become a place of heated arguments and attacks.

I think we need to become sensitive to the needs of the forum itself. The board is not a stagnant, lifeless board of posts, but an organic expression of the feelings, opinions, knowledge, and experience of people here. As with a child, there is a time to nourish, a time to chastise, a time to comfort and so on. Do you let the baby cry because you haven't changed its nappies, instead insist on feeding it when it doesn't need feeding ?

In other words, this forum right now doesn't need the internal debates between the core members. What it needs now is some tlc. I probably didn't help with my starting this thread. But I hope this can reconcile things a little. Core members, remember why you came here. Remember your calling. Put aside your differences for now and work together to do what you do best, equip people with truth and life.

What happens after that ? I don't know. But at least we need to continuing down the path that we're going. We need to make a u-turn. If you are interested in producing a solid testimony for the Lord's Interest, and capture seeking ones' hearts, it will be much easier if you stand as one. Let's forget about the trad vs mod vs whatever debate for now. It's not a winning forumula.

Olly.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 17, 2003.

But at least we need to continuing down the path that we're going.
^^
Should be we need to stop going down the path that we're going.

Olly

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 17, 2003.