THE FIRST ARTICLE (Creation)

I believe in God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

What does this mean?

I believe that God created me and all that exists, and that he gave me my body and soul, eyes, ears and all my members, my mind and all my abilities. And I believe that God still preserves me by richly and daily providing clothing and shoes, food and drink, house and home, spouse and children, land, cattle, and all I own, and all I need to keep my body and life. God also preserves me by defending me against all danger, guarding and protecting me from all evil. All this God does only because he is my good and merciful Father in heaven, and not because I have earned or deserved it. For all this I ought to thank and praise, to serve and obey him. This is most certainly true. (Luther's Small Catechism 1520)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 24, 2003

Answers

Well of course it is true. Luther took it directly from the Catholic Creed and the Catholic Bible.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 24, 2003.

We use the 3 ecumenical creeds as well. Not just catholics! It was Martin Luther who wrote the EXPLANATION to the first article of the Apostles Creed. Not the CATHOLICS!

And also isn't it interesting that Lutherans still use the same catechism that was written in 1520 yet your catechisms are updated every few years? If the the Word of God holy and inerrant is eternal and never changes, how come Catholic doctrine changes?

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 24, 2003.

If I've said it once I've said it a thousands times....Martin Luther was an idiot......and a heretic to boot!!!!

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), November 24, 2003.

THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. What does this mean? We should fear and love God that we do not tell lies about our neighbor, betray him, or give him a bad name, but defend him, speak well of him, and take his words and actions in the kindest possible way. (Luther's Small Catechism 1520)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 24, 2003.

That doest change the fact that luther left the Church to commit adultry with a ex nun and lead ppl astray...

-- kevin wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), November 24, 2003.

Catholic Doctrine (At least Traditional) has not changed. Just because your church uses a chatechism from1520 doesn't mean anything. Luther had already rebeled against the one True Church by 1517! And even if that chatechism was( that is a big "if") then what does it say about the Blessed Sacrament? The Papacy? The Hierarchy? Our Lady? the Saints? I would really like to know. Plus I am sure that youu have heard it said that "by their fruits you shall know them". Then that doesn't say much for the Protestant heresy. The Catholic Church has always remained united whereas the Protestants split into over 30,000 groups. What about unity in Faith: "One Lord, one Faith, one Birth(Baptism)"?

-- Jeff (jmajoris@optonline.net), November 25, 2003.

"We use the 3 ecumenical creeds as well. Not just catholics! It was Martin Luther who wrote the EXPLANATION to the first article of the Apostles Creed. Not the CATHOLICS!"

A: Of course you USE the Creeds, just like you USE the Bible - but they are not yours. You took them from the Holy Catholic Church which produced them, and which alone can properly interpret them. And your inability to interpret them is evident in the doctrinal chaos of your manmade tradition.

"And also isn't it interesting that Lutherans still use the same catechism that was written in 1520 yet your catechisms are updated every few years? If the the Word of God holy and inerrant is eternal and never changes, how come Catholic doctrine changes?"

A: Frankly, an updated catechism of pure, true, and complete beliefs dating back to the Apostles is far better than an antique version of altered, untrue, and incomplete beliefs. Incidentally, If "the Word of God holy and inerrant is eternal and never changes", how come Luther threw out seven whole books of the Old Testament, plus sections of two additional Old Testament books, added words to the remaining text, AND attempted to throw out four New Testament books as well? Apparently he didn't share your opinion about the inerrancy of scripture. Evidently God didn't do a good enough job for Luther. He had to fix all the blunders God had made in inspiring His Holy Word.

And as for Luther's "explanation" of the Creed - the Church which wrote the Creed had already thoroughly explained and taught it for centuries before Luther was born. The short "explanation" you quoted was simply a repeat of basic Catholic teaching. But his "explanations" for other parts of the Creed were plainly heretical.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 25, 2003.

Matthew 12 33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

hello all! .. i just wanna share with u whats i grow up with! .. im lebanese and as everyone knows lebanon is the only arab country which is ful with christians like 50% , well let me tell u what i used to grow up between them but i never understood the way they used to live! .. everyne just g and sin and do whatever they want and then in the end on the week they go to church for forgiveness! i used to laugh at them tho! .. and say TO WHOM THEY ARE LIEING!? AT THEIR GOD? anyways i was muslim and thanks GOd he sent me this sweet angel JEANIE! to show me the right way to god and how u really should love God! ...anyways i think as God said too "you will know them by their fruit".... now i have converted and im lutheran and Jeanie is my wife ! ... im soo proud and i can feel the differance now between the Catholic i used to grow up between their false teaching and between Lutheran and his good church ! ..... nice to meet u guys and i hope God will show u the right way soon! .. and light ur way up to him .

-- Bilal Shakess (Lebanese_guy23@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Jeanie,

I don't get your prerogative here. Your last thread is pointless - "brood of vipers..." Come on!

I challenge you to respond to some good points made by Paul M. Throwing scripture at Catholics is hardly credible since it could apply to you as well.

God bless Francois

-- Franc (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), November 25, 2003.

Bilal,

I congratulate you on your conversion, however, don't be too quick to call Catholicsm false. Prove it.

Luther was not God, nor did God promise to build His Church on Luther. He was a man like you and me that decided to go against Church teaching - was this from God?

If Catholicsm is false, then what is the Church of Luther based on? Your direct link is through the 1st 1500 yrs of Christianity, which is Catholicsm.

Please substantiate your claim (false teachings) with some reason, thanks

God bless

Francois

-- Franc (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), November 25, 2003.

No it applies to you. All I see here are a bunch of ppl saying rotten nasty things. If you truly loved Jesus that love would show in your words and actions. That's the fruit of the spirit as it says in Galations 5.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

As far as defending Martin Luther, why throw my pearls to pigs? Paul said in 1 Tim 4:13, "Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen." So I don't think it is such a good idea.

Grace & peace

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

"If Catholicsm is false, then what is the Church of Luther based on?" The HOLY Inerrant Word of God! Sola Scriptora

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

And anyway in 2 Thessalonians 2 God says through Paul that he is punishing you with disbelief.

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

and like my husband says, we can only pray that the Lord lights your path to heaven. Amen

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

The Joint Declaration on Justification made by the Catholic and Lutheran Churches pretty well ended the theological differences.

Luther was excommunicated from the Church for disobedience. It was not his original intent to leave the Church. The abuses within the Church needed to be fixed, ie. sale of indulgences, simony, etc.

The politics of the time overwhelmed all involved.

Luther was no idiot,a little psychologically disturbed perhaps, but no idiot.

Over time, I believe the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church will become much closer.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 25, 2003.

"The Joint Declaration on Justification made by the Catholic and Lutheran Churches pretty well ended the theological differences." The Joint Declaration on Justification was made between ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) and the RCC. I don't belong to that church. I did until they, like the RCC, began to teach salvation for the heathen. ELCA are the "liberal" Lutherans. We WELS (Wisconsin Synod Lutherans) don't regard them as Christian nevermind Lutheran! Here is what my church, the WELS has to say regarding The Joint Declaration on Justification from the WELS Q&A:

Q: I was able to get a copy of the Catholic-Lutheran Agreement on justification. I took time and read it from beginning to end. I could not see anything in it which would be considered out of place. Justification by faith, the role of good works and everything seems to be correct doctrinally. I'm also open to correction. Could you point out anything which would seem out of line? The late president, Al Barry of LCMS, really came down on it heavily. So, I'm rather confused because the agreement seems intact.

A: President Barry's criticism of the agreement was correct. The essence of the "agreement" is that Lutherans and Catholics agree that we are justified by grace. The problem is that they are using two different definitions of saving grace, and both parties know that they are using different definitions. The Lutheran definition of saving grace is that grace is an attitude of God by which he freely forgives our sins because Christ paid for all of them in their entirety. Forgiveness is by faith alone, not at all by our works. The Catholic definition of justifying grace includes ability which God puts in us which we use to do the works which will complete our justification. Forgiveness is obtained by faith and works. The following is one of several evaluations of the Joint Declaration in WELS sources:

What is the view of WELS concerning the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" between the ELCA and the Roman Catholic Church?

By a vote of 958-25, the ELCA assembly adopted a "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" declaring that condemnations which Lutherans hurled at Roman Catholics during the 16th century concerning the key Lutheran doctrine of justification no longer apply to present Catholic teaching on this topic.

Lutherans have always insisted that justification is God's verdict of free forgiveness, which takes place outside of us. Catholics have insisted that good works are part of the process of justification. The declaration nevertheless asserts, "The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this declaration shows that a consensus in the basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics".

The document does not claim agreement on all aspects of justification but only a consensus on basic truths. This consensus is:

We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation (Pt. 19). This however, does not address the point of disagreement. Catholics and Lutherans have always agreed that we are saved by grace. The disagreement has always been whether the grace by which our sins are forgiven is solely a verdict of God which takes place outside of us or if it includes ability which God puts into us, which we use to complete our justification.

Using language that skillfully blends both the Lutheran teaching and traditional Catholic theology, the joint declaration says:

We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin's enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God's gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30), both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself (Pt. 22).

The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. The justification of sinners is forgiveness of sins and being made righteous by justifying grace, which makes us children of God (Pt 27).

Point 27 clearly permits the Catholic belief that justification is both the forgiveness of sins and the inner renewal of the sinner. It includes both being declared righteous and being made righteous. The joint statement is not a real resolution of the critical difference between the Lutheran and Catholic doctrines of justification, but an attempt to hide these critical differences.

Rome has made no change in its false doctrine of justification. The new Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man (Par. 2019).

No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and others all the graces needed to attain eternal life (Par. 2027).

This is the same false doctrine that was condemned by the Lutheran Confessions in the 16th century. It still must be condemned today.

Roman Catholic approval will also be required for the joint declaration to take effect. Any such approval by Rome, however, will not be a repudiation of the false teaching of Rome, which is affirmed by the new Catholic catechism, but an endorsement of a vague "consensus" which hides the remaining critical differences between Catholic and Lutheran doctrine.

Subsequent to this article, the Catholic Church approved the Joint Declaration, although only with some "clarifications" that made it clear that no real agreement had been reached. Also, the Catholic Church issued a new proclamation of indulgences which made it clear that there had been no real agreement concerning the errors that were the root cause of the Reformation. Nevertheless, the agreement was signed by both churches with great fanfare. This agreement is really a repudiation of "by faith alone" on the part of the Lutherans who signed it.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Why did the Wisconsin Synod group break away from the historic Lutheran Church?

The Joint Declaration was very, very important and a lot of effort was made on both sides.

Saying that the Lutheran Church is not Christian is ... well, just amazing to say the least.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 25, 2003.

It's almost too complicated to answer! First of all the WELS started as a group of German immigrants to Wisconsin. As groups of Lutherans came to America they grouped together in synods.

The WELS are conservative confessional Lutheras (ELCA would call us "fundys"). I guess the simplest answer to your question is that we have a very strict fellowship doctrine based on Scripture that does not allow us to have fellowship wiht churches or individuals who are in doctrinal unity or faithful to the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

ELCA has strayed on almost every point of Christian teaching so we wont have fellowship with them. Here are a few essays from the Wisconsin Lutherans Seminary's (the seminary for the WELS) online library that you might find interesting:

The Doctrinal Statements of the ELCA http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/L/LehningerELCA/Lehning erELCA.htm

The Ecumenical Movement with Special Emphasis on the Lutheran- Catholic Dialogue on Justification http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/s/SiggelkowEcumenical/S iggelkowEcumenical.htm

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

I'm sure that you will be alarmed to learn what the ELCA Lutherans whom you have a fellowship agreement in the Joint Declaration are teaching in their seminaries:

The dogmatics textbook used at all of the seminaries of the AELC is Christian Dogmatics, Braaten/Jensen, Fortress Press, 1984. Editors and contributors to this book are all members of the AELC, and many serve as seminary professors, so it can be assumed that what is taught in this textbook gives an adequate picture of what is being taught in the classroom. Excerpts from the book representing key doctrinal areas are printed below.

1) The Bible: “Today it is impossible to assume the literal historicity of all things recorded.” Vol. 1, p. 67 2) Words of Jesus: “Such passages; in their present form at least, are usually regarded as having come not from Jesus himself but from later interpretative traditions.” Vol. 2, p. 13 3) Miracles: “...it should not be excluded that some of the miracles attributed to Jesus may have no historical basis and serve only to emphasize his exceptional status.” Vol. 2, p. 283 4) Deity of Christ: “In the age of Christendom, the dogmas of the Trinity and of Christ, as formulated in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds, were necessary to believe for salvation. Now the biblical critics could apply the Scripture principle of Protestantism to show that these dogmas cannot be required for faith, since they lack solid biblical support.” Vol. 1, p. 73 5) The Trinity: “Truly the Trinity is simply the Father and the man Jesus and their Spirit as the Spirit of the believing community.” Vol. 1, p. 155 6) The Virgin Birth: “Finally, the history and phenomenology of religions have called our attention to the mythic character of the incarnation. The notion of the preexistent Son of God becoming a human being in the womb of a virgin and then returning to his heavenly home is bound up with a mythological picture of that world that clashes with our modern scientific world view.” Vol. 1, p. 527 7) Atonement: “But what is the import of this traditions Put in its most crass form, this view would hold that Jesus’ death is a sacrifice in which he is a substitute for us who pays the divine justice what is due for human sin and /or appeases the divine wrath. As we shall see, there is a long tradition, especially among Western conservative Christians, which has taken this line. There seems to be a virtual consensus among contemporary biblical scholars, however, that this tradition finds little support in the Scriptures, either in the Old or New Testament.” Vol. 2, p. 15 8) Resurrection: “Mythological symbolism contributed to the interpretation of the event of the resurrection. The question has become acute in modern theology whether in the resurrection we are dealing only with a myth or with a truly historical event.” Vol. 1, p. 549 9) Immortality of the Soul: “In recent years, especially under the impact of a renewed listening to the biblical documents, the idea of an immortal soul has become increasingly suspect.” Vol. 2, p. 565

-- Jeanie Burness (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

What is your point of posting on a Catholic site? You cannot seriously think that you could say anything which would sway those of us who post here to your way of thinking. Most of us have seen and live on a daily basis with the damage done when an individual, for whatever their reasons, takes it upon themselves to breakaway from the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, and start their own particular group. I am sure if you have read many of the threads you can see that this is a diverse bunch who see things quite differently even from each other.

This I think is typical, sadly in my opinion, of Catholicism. But you will not convince any of us to move towards even larger and more serious/consequential errors by following the misguided Luther. Sorry, but you are wasting your efforts. In spite of our differences we know thet to fragment the Church is NOT to do God's will. I believe even the Protesting Bible states that "God hates divorce".

Well, Luther divorced himself from his communion and in doing so has done far greater harm then even the purest of his intentions could justify. His divorce was not justified and it remains so. His progeny should repent and return where they belong. The spouse remains waiting for their return.

Karl

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

First of all, I don't covert anyone. The Holy Spirit does. Second of all I found this place because I did a google search for "Papal Infallibility" and ran across a thread on this board saying some not so nice things about Martin Luther and my faith and I am highly offended. You should all be ashamed of yourselves and beg for God's mercy. It is a sin against the 8th commandment!

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Adultery is offensive. You should abandon Luther's fantasies and return to the truth. The Catholic Church is filled with sinners but sinners who have not arrogantly abandoned their spouse for another.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Karl said, "In spite of our differences we know thet to fragment the Church is NOT to do God's will. I believe even the Protesting Bible states that 'God hates divorce'."

Actually Jesus said that he has not come to bring peace but division:

Luke 12 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Also, the Holy Spirit through Paul said in Romans 16:17

I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

Therefore we are told to seperate ourselves from and avoid those who do not follow the clear teachings of Scripture. It was this way since the beginning the Lord told Israel not to have fellowship with the Pagans for their teachings would corrupt them. We are now the new Israel:

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

I am continually amazed at how little Catholics know of Scripture

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Jeanie wrote: " . . . ran across a thread on this board saying some not so nice things about Martin Luther and my faith and I am highly offended. You should all be ashamed of yourselves and beg for God's mercy. It is a sin against the 8th commandment!"

Hypocrite, hypocrite, hypocrite! You are doing here exactly what you accuse us of doing! If it's a sin for us, then it is also a sin for you, so now you must crawl away in shame.

Oh, boo-hoo, somebody said something insulting about something that I believe, so I have to get all angry and accusatory and post on their forum telling them to be ashamed of themselves!

Do you think that we cannot accuse you of the same exact things?

Wake up. Your religion, as all protestant religions, is made up of half-truths, misrepresentations, and abridged psuedo-bibles.

Why do you think you are called 'protestants'? Because you protested against the Truth!

If all Luther did was reform the Church, you-all would be called 'reformants' or some other positive name . . . but because he protested not only against certain abuses (which, BTW, exist in ALL churches and ALL peoples, including Lutheran -- snake oil salesmen are everywhere -- look at the televangelists!) but also against the irrefutable Truths of the Catholic Faith, he and you and all like you are aptly named the negative appellation: 'protestants'.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Firstly, I am not protestant. I am Lutheran. Secondly, I have not slandered anyone. Thirdly, let's assume for a moment that I have! That makes it ok for you? No.

We in the WELS speak out against false doctrine and false teachers and prophets for two reasons 1)Becuse it was Jesus' command with the Great Commission to preach the Good News to all nations. It is the duty of the church to call sinners to repentance. That is why we hold the keys. 2) Out of love for your souls. False doctrine is always a danger to your faith and it is through faith alone that we are saved! In Revelation 18 God warns, "Come out of her my people so that you do not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues/"

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

"I am continually amazed at how little Catholics know of Scripture"

Don't be amazed, dear child. It's just that we know two verses exceedingly well:

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." - St. John, ch.21, v.25

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, wheter by word, or by our epistle." - St. Paul to the Thessalonians, ch.2, v.14

Therefore, we know that Sola Scriptura is heretical, and that sacred Tratition must be adhered to as well as sacred Scripture.

The other thing to consider is that protestants only have part of the Bible. Luther re-wrote it, leaving out several books, removing verses, and putting his own spin on things.

But the Catholic Religion can still be proved using the protestant bible! Go here and see: http://olrl.org/apologetics/cathprot.html

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Jeanie wrote: "Firstly, I am not protestant."

Yes, you are.

"I am Lutheran."

Exactly. Which is a protestant denomination. Ask anyone . . . oops, I mean, ask anyone EXCEPT your particular group of people who believe exactly as you believe, which probably just includes yourself alone, because each protestant person, Lutheran, Baptist, Epicopalian, Whateverian, is allowed - nay, encouraged! - to interpret sacred Scripture personally, which means that each protestant is his/her own denomination, which means that each protestant is his/her own church!

"Secondly, I have not slandered anyone."

Yes, you have. You have accused us of slandering Luther and his false religion. But how can we slander anything by calling a heretic a heretic?

"Thirdly, let's assume for a moment that I have!"

No assumption necessary. Pure fact.

"That makes it ok for you? No."

I totally agree. No, it is not OK for Catholics to slander people any more than it is for Lutherans or any other protestants to slander anyone. But calling Luther a heretic is simply the truth, nothing more. If I say that dogs are mammals, is that slander? Of course not. It's fact. If I say that shrews are shrewish, is that slander? If I say that protestants are heretics . . . you get the idea.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Is there any way to put Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com) <----- ----this person on ignore?

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

I don't think so, since this is a forum and not an email discussion list.

Are you having a problem with the facts I've given you?

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

"Therefore, we know that Sola Scriptura is heretical, and that sacred Tratition must be adhered to as well as sacred Scripture."

Why then does the RCC adhere to the historical-critical method of Biblical interpretation that says that the Bible is neither Holy nor inerrant? You accuse Martin Luther of taking parts of the Bible out (which is not true by the way)yet you do not even believe that the Bible is holy and inerrant! The pope believes in EVOLUTION!! How is that possible? Is God a LIAR???? The Bible is a LIE!!!??? If there is no truth in Genesis there is no longer any truth in the entire Bible! All Biblical doctrine has it's basis in Genesis!!!

2 Timothy 3 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Romans 1 16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

This is how we know that all we need to get to heaven is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And if the Bible is "God-breathed" then how is it possible that God created the world through evolution???!!!! Saying so is calling God a liar!

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

And another THING!!!! Lutherans are NOT Protestants!! We are EVANGELICALS! Before Lutherans were Lutherans and way before the Calvinists Baptists and Reformed hijacked the word, we were EVANGELICALS. That is why in just about every Lutheran synod's name you will find the word EVANGELICAL like the Wisconsin EVANGELICAL Lutheran Synod. Its not the Wisconsin PROTESTANT Lutheran Synod! Protestants are Baptists Pentecostals Presbytarians et al not LUTHERANS!

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Jeannie:
So you ''ran across a thread on this board saying some not so nice things about Martin Luther and my faith and I am highly offended,''

You heard only the truth about Martin Luther in this forum. If it offends you, we're sorry. Your faith is misplaced in Lutheranism. We have no wish to ridicule you for it but we must say truthfully, you are a missing person, a soul lost from birth from the faith of the holy apostles.

If this offends you, you are merely suffering from hurt pride; as if the world owed Lutheranism something. It does not.

Your ancestors all were Catholics. Some were faithful Catholics, they are now among the blessed with Our Lord. Those who were Catholics but unrepentent sinners, (as Bilal says we ALL are), they must be in hell. Despite the Church they were a part of, Christ's own Church ! The faith can be true and undefiled, but individual souls aren't saved if they're unrepentant. That goes for all of us, Catholics or not. You mustn't blame the Church of the apostles for the sins of some Catholics. You must know the Catholic faith has been blessed with thousands of saints. Luther himself knew that. He would have told you so.

But the faith of Luther hasn't given us saints. It can't, because it's a heretical sect. Saints must be faithful to only the revealed truth. This is what we have directly from Christ and His apostles. Luther broke away from the source of that truth. Nothing Luther himelf introduced came from the apostles. The only truth still existing in the Lutheran faith is what has been preserved of the basic Catholic teachings of the apostles. All the rest is human error.

Don't take our word for this. Investigate for yourself. You have a good Christian heart, you deserve to return to the Church of all your blessed ancestors; where God is truly awaiting your return. NOW!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 25, 2003.

First of all, my dad's name is Eugene. Nice name. You must be French like us! :)

Actually, as I just told you, my father's family is French and therefore, of course, they are all Catholic. So, you're right about that, but contrary to the rest of your post, it is they (and you) who are in error not me and not Martin Luther.

The Bible clearly says that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ (faith alone) that this is a gift from God (grace alone) and that all doctrine should be based on the Word of God alone (Scripture Alone)

Another thing! Why do you call the pope "Holy Father"? Is he holy? Is there anyone else who deserves to be called "Father" besides God alone? Jesus said:

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone.

And....

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

And just one more thing! Why do you pray to Mary and the Saints when it says in Revelation 22:

8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

Aren't Mary and the "Saints" (I disagree with you definition of "saint" by the way) just fellow servent like the angel?

Grace & peace

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Looks like Jeanie is getting a little upset here.

“You accuse Martin Luther of taking parts of the Bible out”

Yep.

“(which is not true by the way)”

Yes, it is. He took out Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch. Also, the Bible contain an additional six chapters (107 verses) in the book of Esther and another three in the book of Daniel (174 verses), all of which Luther removed for his incomplete version.

“yet you do not even believe that the Bible is holy and inerrant!”

Excuse me? I did not say that. Retract this statement, Jeanie.

“The pope believes in EVOLUTION!!”

Since when? Prove your statement.

“How is that possible?”

What, you don’t think God can use a simple process like evolution to create His creatures? You think God is bound to operate in a “pull a rabbit out of a hat” kind of blink-of-an-eye mode? If that's so, then why do women have to go through pregnancy and childbirth? Why doesn't God just make new babies appear, ta-da! like He did with Adam and Eve?

“Is God a LIAR????”

Um, your “god” is. Because you are obviously not worshiping the True God.

“The Bible is a LIE!!!???”

Are you macadamia nuts? Of course the Bible is not a lie. Nothing in the Bible is a lie. So, when the Bible says that spoken Tradition must be believed as well as written Scripture, it is not a lie. It is absolute truth, which you, Jeanie, refuse to believe. Also, the same goes for that little verse, “Unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you shall not have life everlasting.” Which calls for the real presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist, which no protestant church, including Lutheran of any flavor, does not have. So, Jeanie, why do you still insist on straying from belief in the word of Holy Scripture?

“All Biblical doctrine has it's basis in Genesis!!!”

Hmmm, I don’t know where you got this one from. Is this something they teach little Lutherans in Sunday school? Because, Jeanie, why would the rest of the Bible be necessary if all Biblical doctrine had it’s basis in Genesis? So, you yourself, by this statement, just blew apart your entire reliance on the Bible for the word of God. Why not just state what you’re saying, “Sola Genesis” rather than Sola Scriptura?

“This is how we know that all we need to get to heaven is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

Jeanie has conveniently ignored the verses I quoted to her. Remember, the ones about holding fast to Tradition and how the whole world would not be big enough to contain everything Christ said and did if it was all written down? Just in case she forgot about that so soon, I’ll quote them again here:

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written. - St. John, ch.21, v.25

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, wheter by word, or by our epistle. - St. Paul to the Thessalonians, ch.2, v.14

“And if the Bible is "God-breathed" then how is it possible that God created the world through evolution???!!!!”

I never said He did. Neither did the pope. To set the record straight, I do not believe in evolution. To my knowledge, neither does the pope. But, even if the pope did believe in evolution, that would not be required belief for Catholics because the pope, as a man, can make mistakes, except when he is speaking from the Chair of Peter (something I think Jeanie doesn’t know about . . . but should!).

“Saying so is calling God a liar!”

Never said so. Please try to control yourself and your blatant accusations.

”And another THING!!!! Lutherans are NOT Protestants!!”

Yes, you are.

“We are EVANGELICALS!”

Evangelicals are protestants. They protested against the infallibility of the Catholic Church, and then broke away. Therefore, they are protest-ants.

“Before Lutherans were Lutherans and way before the Calvinists Baptists and Reformed hijacked the word, we were EVANGELICALS.”

Then why do you call yourself Lutheran? So what about the history of who broke away before who, and who did it first. You all broke away. Therefore, you all, including Lutherans, and including Evangelicals, are protestants.

“Its not the Wisconsin PROTESTANT Lutheran Synod!”

So it doesn’t call itself that. Does a cow call itself a cow? No, because it can not see what it’s self is. Same for protestants. So these are “Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod” protestants. Why not change that to “Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod non- Heretics” so you can call yourselves “WELSH” to make it easier? You’ll still be heretics, and protest-ants. No matter what you call yourselves.

“Protestants are Baptists Pentecostals Presbytarians et al not LUTHERANS!”

Lutherans are just another “flavor” of protestants, like Mint Chocolate Chip is just another flavor of ice cream. Anyone up for Baskin Robins?

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

[a fix-ation of a typo:]

"the real presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist, which no protestant church, including Lutheran of any flavor, does not have."

should have been:

"the real presence of Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist, which no protestant church, including Lutheran of any flavor, has."

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Psyche +AMDG Your a fruit cake! I am not going to read or respond to your posts they are just rediculous!

Yes the Pope DOES believe in evolution!

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0102-97/Article3.html

To say that the world was not creted in 6 literal days like the Bible says is calling God a liar!

-- Jean Marie (Mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Oh and we do believe in the real presence at Holy Communion! You are confusing us with baptists. How can you argue with me and call Martin Luther a heretic when you don't even know what we believe, teach or confess???!!!!

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Jeannie:
Your post is replete with non sequiturs. You'll never learn to debate wisely by falling back on useless statements. ''The Bible clearly says that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ (faith alone) that this is a gift from God (grace alone),'' you say. In fact, the Bible doesn't say that; as your context has it. We are saved by faith in Jesus; and our works prove our faithfulness to His teachings. Luther inserted the word ''alone.'' It was not in the scripture before he concocted it so. You're reading a truncated edition of the Word of God, I'm sorry. Furthermore; all Catholics know their salvation rests completely on the condition of faith in Jesus Christ. Luther didn't discover that in the Bible. It has been a Catholic tenet since 33 A.D.

Works are definitely required of us; but not to SAVE us, as you misleadingly state. Works are the required outgrowth of this faith. Without the works our faith is sterile. Luther, of course, neglected to teach his sect this. Not surprising; since he was no apostle.

''and that all doctrine should be based on the Word of God alone (Scripture Alone) --'' That's not true at all. You have nothing in scripture to back up this evil teaching.

''you call the Pope "Holy Father"? Is he holy?

He is a man like I am. --I am ''sometimes'' and in ''some ways'' holy myself, Jeannie. But I hold no holy office in the Church or even in the world. The Pope does.

He is successor to the holy apostle Saint Peter. His OFFICE, Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, is HOLY. Thus, we revere him as our Holy Father. Matter of fact, many of our Popes have been great and holy men. You blow the word out of proportion by applying it so to an ungracious and malicious end.

''a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!" (Rev 22:)
Aren't Mary and the "Saints" (I disagree with you definition of "saint" by the way) just fellow servants like the angel?''

It would be a sin to ''worship'' Mary, a saint or any angel. Catholics do not. Praying and worshipping are two distinct things. You confuse the two. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the ''Servant'' par excellence of God and her own Holy Son. (Luke 1 :38) ''Behold the handmaid of the lord; be it done to me according to thy word.'' (Mary--)

Her FAITH is expressed in a WORK; and salvation for all mankind proceeds from God-- by her faith, and her WORKS; greatest of any Christian ever! She bore the Son of God! Not even an ANGEL is as worthy of our love and our heartfelt prayers as she. To deny it is to dishonor Our Saviour who loves her! Even so, she is not God's peer or equal, and Catholics do not worship Mary or adore her. YES, we pray to her; an altogether different act.

If you disagree with our definition of ''saint'', it doesn't matter. We learn from Christ's holy Church, not from Lutherans or other sects without authority from the apostles.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 25, 2003.

Around and around we go where we stop nobdy knows.... except me of course! St. Peter was NOT holy and neither is the pope and neither are u.

Furthermore, I use the NIV not Luther's Bible! I cant speak in German!

If you dont believe that you are saved through faith + works then why as late as 2000 "The Golden Jubilee Year" did Pope John Paul reissue indulgences?

There was a genuine and bonifide reason for the Reformation, Anyone who believes that we can save ourselfs through our good works is taking away from Christ's work on the Cross. If this was true, then there was no reason for God himself to come to earth and be brutally sacrificed like he was! All I need for Salvation is CHRIST ALONE. I am a sinner and am incapable of saving myself. As Paul said, "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." It is because God is merciful and just that I am saved and for no other reason. I have not EARNED it. I cannot!

Today we can add to the reasons for the reformation the doctrine of Papal infallibility and the higher critical method of Biblical interpretation to the list of false doctrine in the RCC. These are the reasons that we identify the office of the Papacy as the very antichrist prophesied in Scripture(2 Thessalonians 2). To do otherwise would be a loveless denial of the TRUTH!

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

The subject of the Bible, sola scriptura and related topics come up rather regularly. A very good resource for anyone who is studying the Bible is:

Every Catholics Guide to the Sacred Scriptures Author: Rev. Jerome Kodell Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1975 0-8407-3186-8 -- 399 pages.

It is a wonderful resource. It explains the history of the bible, author of the biblical books and gives a survey of each.

******************************************************************* Reprinted from an earlier thread.

God Bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 25, 2003.

Jeannie:
Her words: ''St. Peter was NOT holy and neither is the Pope and neither are u.'' You could be right about me. You have no clue about the others. The Holy Catholic Church is where all your ancestors worshipped. Even Luther worshipped there. Yes; clueless, that's you. Our Holy Father doesn't require a seal of approval from the clueless. He's holy enough for God, and that's why he's the successor of Saint Peter, who was holy enough for Jesus Christ to found His Holy Church on. We know what's holy, even if you don't.

''If you dont believe that you are saved through faith + works then why as late as 2000 "The Golden Jubilee Year" did Pope John Paul reissue indulgences?'' Indulgences aren't for salvation, Jeannie. Who told you this? (They never were un-issued.) We DO believe Christians are saved through faith + works, BTW.

Jeannie can add to her imagined reasons for the ''reformation''-- ''Papal infallibility and the higher critical method of Biblical interpretation to the list of false doctrine in the RCC. These are the reasons that ''we identify'' (The devil agrees with you, nobody else.) the office of the Papacy as the very antichrist prophesied in Scripture (2 Thess.)

To do otherwise would be a loveless denial of the TRUTH!''

She left out a main part of her thesis, HERESY. Heresy is what her lawless apostle Luther was guilty of. Now his latest disciple, a sweet angel called Jeannie, presumes to tell everybody what she considers reformable! She and Satan?

She's a convert to the heresy of an evil Catholic, and presumes to reform the Catholic Church, all of it-- founded by Jesus Christ!

''Loveless denial'' of the TRUTH? No-- Clueless bankruptcy of Sola Scriptura, which leads supine Bible-worshippers away from sure salvation!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 25, 2003.

Jeanie wrote: “Psyche +AMDG Your a fruit cake! I am not going to read or respond to your posts they are just rediculous! Yes the Pope DOES believe in evolution! To say that the world was not creted in 6 literal days like the Bible says is calling God a liar!”

Yep, here we go with the protestant calling the Catholic names because the protestant no longer has a Scriptural leg to stand on.

Jeanie, can you read? Then go read that article you gave me the address to. It clearly states that the pope says that evolution is compatible with Creation and the Catholic Faith. This is hugely different from the pope saying “I believe in evolution.” Surely you are not stupid enough to think the one means the other.

Jeanie wrote: “Oh and we do believe in the real presence at Holy Communion! You are confusing us with baptists.”

Whether or not you believe it, doesn’t mean you have It. You do not have the Real Presence. You do not have Christ’s body and blood. This is because your ministers (whatever you call them) are not directly “descended from” the Apostles. Only the priests and bishops within the Catholic Church are directly “descended from” the Apostles, therefore only they have the ability to validly consecrate the bread & wine into the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

“How can you argue with me and call Martin Luther a heretic when you don't even know what we believe, teach or confess???!!!!”

Uh, Jeanie, you just shot yourself in the foot. How can YOU argue with ME or the Catholic Church, when you don’t know what I believe and/or the Church teaches? Your little attempt at discrediting my arguments does not fly, or you would have to stop arguing against Catholicism and all of us at this forum. BTW, I know a lot more about Luther and what he did, believed, and taught, than you do, or any other protestant for that matter.

”Around and around we go where we stop nobdy knows.... except me of course!”

Oh, of course!! Because the rules just don’t apply to Jeanie, do they?

“St. Peter was NOT holy and neither is the pope and neither are u.”

Then why is St. Peter a saint, hmm? “Be ye perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.” Are you saying that Christ commanded us to do the impossible?

“If you dont believe that you are saved through faith + works then why as late as 2000 "The Golden Jubilee Year" did Pope John Paul reissue indulgences?”

This just shows how little you understand about the Catholic Faith. Indulgences are not about saving your soul. Indulgences are about lessening the time your soul, or the souls of others, will spend in purgatory, after dying, after being saved from hell, but before being clean enough or holy enough to enter the presence of God in heaven.

“There was a genuine and bonifide reason for the Reformation,”

Yeah. Luther, a celibate preist, wanted to be “allowed” to have sex – with a nun. That’s why he did what he did.

“Anyone who believes that we can save ourselfs through our good works is taking away from Christ's work on the Cross.”

It is impossible to take away from Christ’s work on the Cross. We must save ourselves through faith and works. “Not every one who cries Abba, Father! Will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” But “They shall be cast out into the outer darkness, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

“If this was true, then there was no reason for God himself to come to earth and be brutally sacrificed like he was!”

Of course there’s a reason. The reason is, one mortal sin takes more “energy” to “undo” or erase, than all the “energy” it took to create the entire universe. You think we believe a sinful person has that kind of “energy”? Pish-posh! What a ridiculous idea. But we do believe that “God helps those who help themselves,” i.e., we have to do our part, and not just sit on our butts and let God, Whom we have wronged so horribly, do all the work.

“All I need for Salvation is CHRIST ALONE.”

Nope. Go read the Bible. “Not every one who cries Abba, Father! Will enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

“I am a sinner and am incapable of saving myself.”

But you have to do your part. You have to do God’s Will. You have to have faith and works, not faith alone.

“As Paul said, "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."”

Again we have a protestant mis-interpreting or self-interpreting Scripture. You are using this verse as such a cop-out! “Oh, St. Paul said this, so it must mean this, so I don’t have to do anything but cry Abba, Father! And I’ll be saved, and meanwhile I can go sinning on my merry way and just say “sorry” once in a while and maybe drip a tear or two, and everything will be OK, and nothing matters because I’ve cried Abba, Father!” Yeah, right. That’s not what St. Paul said, and you know it.

“It is because God is merciful and just that I am saved and for no other reason.”

Sorry to tell you this, chicka, but you are not “saved”. You aren’t even dead yet.

“I have not EARNED it. I cannot!”

But you can do a lot better than just crying Abba, Father! Now, can’t you?

“Today we can add to the reasons for the reformation the doctrine of Papal infallibility and the higher critical method of Biblical interpretation to the list of false doctrine in the RCC. These are the reasons that we identify the office of the Papacy as the very antichrist prophesied in Scripture(2 Thessalonians 2). To do otherwise would be a loveless denial of the TRUTH!”

Jeanie, I have one thing to say to you: “Simon, thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I shall build My church.”

Any other protest-ant arguments?

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Here are some quotes from the infamous Martin Luther. Jeanie, I hope you enjoy these!

"God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed."

"Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders."

"A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him."

"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without inequality of persons. Some must be free, some serfs, some rulers, some subjects."

"As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil."

"As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts."

"At Poltersberg, there is a lake similarly cursed. If you throw a stone into it, a dreadful storm immediately arises, and the whole neighboring district quakes to its centre. 'Tis the devils kept prisoner there."

"At Sussen, the Devil carried off, last Good Friday, three grooms who had devoted themselves to him."

"Demons live in many lands, but particularly in Prussia."

"How often have not the demons called 'Nix,' drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, with fearful consequences."

"I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kulenberg did."

"I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."

"I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child of this sort, which had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children."

"I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all."

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

"In many countries there are particular places to which devils more especially resort. In Prussia there is an infinite number of evil spirits."

"In Switzerland, on a high mountain, not far from Lucerne, there is a lake they call Pilate's Pond, which the Devil has fixed upon as one of the chief residences of his evil spirits...."

"Many demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark poolly places ready to hurt...people."

"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."

"No gown worse becomes a than the desire to be wise."

"Our bodies are always exposed to Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil's spells."

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

"Some [demons] are also in the thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds."

"The best way to get rid of the Devil, if you cannot kill it with the words of Holy Scripture, is to rail at and mock him. Music, too, is very good; music is hateful to him, and drives him far away. "

"The damned whore Reason...."

"The Devil can so completely assume the human form, when he wants to deceive us, that we may well lie with what seems to be a woman, of real flesh and blood, and yet all the while 'tis only the Devil in the shape of a woman. 'Tis the same with women, who may think that a man is in bed with them, yet 'tis only the Devil; and...the result of this connection is oftentimes an imp of darkness, half mortal, half devil...."

"The Devil...clutched hold of the miserable young man...and flew off with him through the ceiling, since which time nothing has been heard of [him]."

"The Devil fears the word of God, He can't bite it; it breaks his teeth."

"The Devil, it is true, is not exactly a doctor who has taken degrees, but he is very learned, very expert for all that. He has not been carrying on his business during thousands of years for nothing...."

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

"The fact that [the biblical book] Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two...."

"The winds are nothing else but good or bad spirits. Hark! how the Devil is puffing and blowing...."

"There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Ghost, and he himself a prophet."

"This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."

"To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason."

"...two devils rose from the water, and flew off through the air, crying, 'Oh, oh, oh!' and turning one over another, in sportive mockery...."

"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."

"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist."

"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

"We need not invite the Devil to our table; he is too ready to come without being asked. The air all about us is filled with demons...."

"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]....

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings...are to be taken from them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...their homes also should be razed and destroyed."

"When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children."

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason."

"Women...have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

"So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The above quotes were compiled and provided by Don Morgan

Note: I am often asked for source citations for these quotes. Most of them come from "Luther's Table Talk" or from one of the several Luther biographies. Unfortunately, when I collected these quotes, I did so only for my own amusement and I didn't keep track of the exact citations. - Don Morgan

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 25, 2003.

G'night, all. Shall return in the A.M.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

That's because they are LIES!

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

I've read one of these famous quotes of Luther in somewhat different translation from the German: ''Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed.''

The way I saw it was roughly: ''Sin boldly and with bolder faith.''

These are Lutherisms which mean nothing to the faithful today. What matters most is the Church Luther revolted against: Christ's Holy Church with her apostolic faith and the Pontiff. Nothing else is so offensive to God as this: That a mere mortal should expect to reform the Church Jesus Christ is Founder of and to whom the Holy Spirit was sent as Advocate. Luther was a sinner ten times over just for that much.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 25, 2003.

You mean to say that Lutherans don't receive the Holy Spirit in Holy Baptism and Holy Communion?

That verse where Peter is called "The Rock" is taken by Catholics to mean something it doesn't entirely! This is from an email from my pastor on that verse:

Regarding the question on Peter, the Roman Catholic church believes that the account related in Mt. 16, Mk. 8 and Lk.9 (Peter's Confession of Christ) is Jesus' establishing the papacy with Peter serving as the "rock" on which the church stands. But the original Greek makes it clear that Jesus was not referring to PETER as being the rock on which the church is built, but rather his confession ("You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God") is what the church is founded upon. A good commentary put it this way: "The truth Peter confessed is the solid rock on which Jesus builds his church. All who make this same confession from their hearts are living stones (Peters) that fit together in the construction of Christ's church. It is unreasonable, extremely arbitrary, and contrary to other statements of the Scriptures to interpret these words of Jesus as proclaiming Peter to be the head of Christ's church on earth, the Lord's infallible spokesman in matters of morals and doctrine. Although Peter did eventually become a bold apostle of Christ, his human weaknesses and errors are all too apparent as his life in the kingdom of God continues." I would add that right after Peter made this confession and was supposedly made the first "pope," moments later Jesus indicates he was serving as an instrument of Satan when he told Jesus he was not going to suffer and die (Mt. 16:23).

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

Unfortunately for your pastor, Jesus didn't say "Simon, your confession is Rock". He said "Simon, THOU art Rock". This is the way it is rendered in Greek, and in any translation from the Greek. "THOU" means "YOU". There is no other possible translation or interpretation. Fundamentalists have always tried to distort this passage in a desperate attempt to avoid its obvious meaning. However, the Catholic Church, who placed this passage into the Bible, and who alone has the authority to interpret it, takes the radical stance that Jesus actually meant what He said! When He looked directly at the Apostle SIMON, addressing Him by name, and said "Simon, THOU art Rock (Petros)", His meaning could not have been more clear. It's silly to suggest otherwise. You do realize that this occasion was the FIRST time the Apostle SIMON was ever known as PETER (ROCK)? If Jesus was not identifying Simon as the Petros, then why did everyone from that moment on address him and write about him using the name Petros (Peter)?? The other Apostles knew who Jesus had identified as the Rock. They were there when Jesus said "YOU are Rock". From that very moment they referred to him as "Simon Peter" - "Simon the Rock". The scriptural writers knew who Jesus had identified as the Rock. Otherwise they would simply have continued to speak of the Apostle as Simon, his given name. Apparently they understood the meaning of 'THOU". Apparently your pastor does not.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 26, 2003.

"These are Lutherisms which mean nothing to the faithful today." Luther was not God. He was not even a prophet or an apostle. He was Just a worker in Christ's kingdom and a sinner like the rest of us. We don't take every word out of Luther's mouth and treat it as if it came from God himself. What makes us Lutheran is that we accept the Lutheran Confessions or the Book of Concord of 1580 as a true and faithful expression of the doctrine of Scripture. They dont replace Scripture.

When the Pope says that you play a role in your salvation through your own deeds then he is leading you astray. Christ's last words on the cross were, "It is finished." It is Christ's righteousness that makes us righteous before God not our own. It is what HE did not what WE do! We are powerless to save ourselves. We are born into sin and that sin seperates us from God eternally. That is why we baptize babies! To say that you have the power to play a role in your own salvation makes Christ's sacrifice on the cross meaningless!

When we are converted through Baptism, when the Holy Spirit creates faith in our hearts, it is that faith that saves us! As Christians, we WANT to live good and holy lives because we love God. That is the fruit of the Spirit and it is proof that saving faith exists! That is what the verses in James mean! If there are not good works, then there is no faith.... the faith that saves! Good works is the result of faith not the cause of it!

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

Jeanie wrote: "You mean to say that Lutherans don't receive the Holy Spirit in Holy Baptism and Holy Communion?"

Lutherans *might* receive the Holy Ghost in Baptism *if* 1)the Baptism takes place in an "exta-ordinary" manner, when the person is close to death, and 2)the correct matter and form are used.

Lutheran preachers/ministers are not priests. They have not been consecrated by a bishop of Christ's Faith. Therefore, they are just men attempting to give Sacraments which only priests have the power&authority to give. Under normal conditions, even if the minister uses correct matter&form in Baptism, since there is no immediate danger of death for the catechumen, and since the minister is just a man, not a priest, NO, Baptism does not take place. Sorry.

As for your sacreligeous version of Holy Communion, NO, you never have the Real Presence and you never receive that grace when you partake of your "communion", for the same reason: your ministers/preachers are not priests, have not been consecrated as required, & do not have the authority and power. They are not of the Apostles; they are just men attempting things which Jesus gave only to His Apostles (priests, bishops)and their "decendents" to do. Jeanie wrote: "That verse where Peter is called "The Rock" is taken by Catholics to mean something it doesn't entirely! This is from an email from my pastor on that verse:"

What your pastor wrote you, and the quote he quoted, is simply typical protestant flim-flam. You, he, and all of you who believe as you state about the Papacy, are ignoring the fact that Christ said, Matt. 16, 18-19: "And I say also unto Thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven" etc.

Also, later, Christ re-affirmed his appointment of Peter as the first Pope here: John 21, 15 to 17: "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time. Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him. Feed my sheep. 17. He saith unto him the third time, Simon son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

This is incontrovertible. Your pastor, and the guy he quoted, did not cite anything in the Bible which speaks against these two verses; he came up with his arguments out of his own head and the other guy's writings, *not the Bible*; your pastor uses his own personal interpretation of these things in order to support what he believes and teaches. But personal interpretation is actually spoken against in the Bible:

2 Peter 1-20: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

2 Peter 3-16: "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

But I have given you Biblical references which support the Papacy. And, I have given you Biblical references which forbid personal interpretation. It looks like I'm a better Bible-thumper than your pastor is, *and I'm a Catholic*!!! Again, go look them up; they are in your Bible, too!

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 26, 2003.

To take a verse of the Bible and isolate it and make a whole doctrine out of it is just negligent! You have to take that verse and compare it to what the rest of Scripture says to truly understand it's meaning. God is the author of the Bible and the Bible is infallable and inerrant and God doesn't contridict himself.

In James 2 it says:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[4] ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[5] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

But in Galations 5 it says:

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Did God contridict himself? Both James and Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Isn't it possible that what James means is that if there are not good deeds there never was any faith? If you have faith but there are no good deeds, then there was never any faith! If we go through the Gospels we find Jesus preaching again and again about our good fruit. When we love God we naturally want to do good. That is because we all have God dwelling in our hearts through our baptisms. Good deeds are the result of saving faith. If not, and you take these words in James to stand on their own, you are saying that God makes mistakes, and that is not true. God is perfect! We cannot take it upon our selves to interpret scripture. Our wisdom is corrupted with sin. We need to allow God to interpret the Bible!

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

Psyche +AMDG I am ignoring you and not reading your posts so don't waste your time

www.wels.net www.whataboutjesus.com

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

"Lutherans *might* receive the Holy Ghost in Baptism *if* 1)the Baptism takes place in an "exta-ordinary" manner, when the person is close to death, and 2)the correct matter and form are used."

Jesus gave us two commands, to Baptize and to have Communion. We Lutherans call them "Sacraments" because they are sacred and it is through Baptism and Holy Communion that we receive God's grace and forgivness of sins. Jesus' command to Baptize said simply:

The Great Commission

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I don't see anything here that says that it has to be done by a "priest". I can even baptize in an emergency! Just the word, "priest" is a heresy! It comes from the Jews! The priests were the ones who made sacrifices. We don't need to make sacrifices anymore. There was ONE sacrifice. Jesus said, "It is finished" Jesus is the "Lamb who takes away the sins of the world" It doesn't need to be done over and over and over and over again. It was done once and for all! In fact it says that somewhere in Romans!

Romans 6

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

and another thing on this priest issue!

In the days of the OLD covenant God was behind a curtain in the temple. Only the "preists" could go back there after they did an elaborate washing cerimony and only once a year to give God their sacrifices for sins. This was because God is holy and cannot be near sin! After Jesus breathed his last and said "It is finished" the curtain in the temple tore in two! Why? Because our sins no longer seperate us from God! Look!

Mark 15 37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last. 38The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and[4] saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son[5] of God!"

Why in the catholic church do the "priests" stand between the people and God? This is a heresy too!

-- Jean Marie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

Jeannie: ''To take a verse of the Bible and isolate it and make a whole doctrine out of it is just negligent! You have to take that verse and compare it to what the rest of Scripture says,''

Isolate? A whole doctrine, out of a verse?

Isn't that verse you build a doctrine on (entirely) saved by faith ''alone''--? One verse? It isn't even correct, since Luther ADDED the word alone! Yet your Lutheran doctrine stands on this purported proof.

''You have to take that verse and compare it to what the rest of Scripture--etc.,'' Is this the truth? Where within the scripture itself is this methodology given you? Where within the scriptures is Sola Scriptura pronounced valid for your foolish rule of faith? I'm asking for the proof-text, not your opinion, or the grace Luther gave you for this understanding. Show us the text saying we must always rely solely upon Holy Scripture in Christ's Church?

You might not believe this, but we have NEVER built any Catholic doctrine upon an ''isolated'' verse in the Bib;le. The fact is, our faith is from the Apostles and Christ; not from the Bible. You are in a house that worships the Bible; even when you can't discern truth within it. You CAN'T; because in order to understand the meaning of half the written Word of God, you must abandon your ''reformation''. This is of course, counter to your own WILL. You oppose God's Will with a mortal man's will. This isolates your sect from the truth; both empirical and scriptural. You are blind, being led by the blind; both falling into a ditch of unbelief.

Show the text-proof for Sola Scriptura, if you can, Jean /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 26, 2003.

answer my questions and i'll answer yours :)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.

What are the questions, Jeanie? Please recapitulate them.

-- (1@2.3), November 26, 2003.

Jeannie hesitates and plays for time.
She can't produce any proof from the Bible to support her claim: ''You have to take that verse and compare it to what the rest of Scripture says to ___truly understand___ (see below-) its meaning.''

Not only is it a simplistic and self- serving way of interpretation; but her method isn't intellectually honest. We all know the words of one passage can be distorted if you carry them to another conclusion based on a biased view of some other verse.

This is obfuscation and denial. The sole arbiter of what EVERY verse of the New Testament means is Christ's Church. Jeannie insists on triangulating toward distortions of absolute truth; and that's the ONLY reason she and other non-Catholics CAN'T concede any authority to the Catholic Church. She has authority and they refuse to understand that. It would be liberating and constructive for her, to hear the interpretation of the Bible from the ONLY truthful source; but she would be forced to confess her fault. She would have to confess she's unfaithful to Christ, who founded His Church.

Instead of choosing spiritual honesty and humility, she and others like her desperately cling to error. When they're shown their error, they offer more distortions of the scripture; more self- serving inventions.

It's their vicious circle. They won't face the blasphemous aspect of their pride, a dishonor done by men to God's Holy Word.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 26, 2003.

Jeannie's confused idea of the truth is best illustrated by her statement:

''take that verse and compare it to what the rest of Scripture says to ___truly understand___ its meaning.'' --''

If only we saw a sign in her posts showing she ''truly understands''. Not by a long shot! She truly ''misunderstands.'' Jeannie must ignore the main question: Where is the Bible seen to declare it alone is the Christian rule of faith? Chapter & verse???

Also, just for argument's sake: --How is a heretical faith supposed to gain wayward Christians the aid and discernment of the Holy Spirit? Isn't TRUTH what determines where the Holy Spirit has given His authority? When heretics misinterpret scripture, WHY do they think the Holy Spirit advised and taught them the truth? He is no Advocate to heretics.

Jean returns to her error saying to us, ''We need to allow God to interpret the Bible!'' But she interprets it HERSELF, erroneously! Isn't the Holy Spirit GOD? He is given to the Church; Jeannie can see that in scripture. Yet, for some reason, she denies the Church has authority to give the faithful an inerrant interpretation for every truth in the Bible! She rather thinks SHE can discern it better by her sola scriptural formula of ''comparing'' verses! It's absurd what PRIDE will do to some people. /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 26, 2003.

"Psyche +AMDG I am ignoring you and not reading your posts so don't waste your time - Jean Marie"

Jeanie, if you were ignoring me you wouldn't be replying, now would you? Just another proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), November 26, 2003.

jeanie,

i thought long and hard before responding to this thread, primarily because i missed so many opportunities to jump when you spoke out of stupidity. i've also got a confusion on how to respond... so i think i'll post twice, once to just show you your quotes with a few minor interpretations, and once with some meat to the post...

All I see here are a bunch of ppl saying rotten nasty things. If you truly loved Jesus that love would show in your words and actions (keep this in mind, what you said)

a thread on this board saying some not so nice things about Martin Luther and my faith and I am highly offended (keep this in mind too, not so nice things were said, and YOU are offended)

As far as defending Martin Luther, why throw my pearls to pigs? (so we are pigs then?)

I am continually amazed at how little Catholics know of Scripture (apparently we dont read the word of God???)

The pope believes in EVOLUTION!! (whereever you heard this, you heard wrong)

Protestants are Baptists Pentecostals Presbytarians (your slander of others extends beyond catholicism alone... well, maybe not, there is truth that protestants pentecostals and presbytarians are protestant like lutherans)

Psyche +AMDG Your a fruit cake! I am not going to read or respond to your posts they are just ridiculous (name calling, didnt you say something about that being a sin against the 8th commandment?)

St. Peter was NOT holy and neither is the pope and neither are u (glad you consider YOURSELF holy enough to judge me and my stance with God...)

That's because they are LIES!(apparently all catholics are liars now too)

To take a verse of the Bible and isolate it and make a whole doctrine out of it is just negligent! (and negligent too)

Just the word, "priest" is a heresy! (and now heretics too?)

child, youre hypocracy knows no bounds. next let me post some valid arguements against some of your stupidities...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 27, 2003.

correction to the above post:

you also stated:Secondly, I have not slandered anyone

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 27, 2003.

now for a bit of cranking up the old arguement machine...

Rome has made no change in its false doctrine of justification

actually, youre right. rome has made no change in its false doctrines. likewise, the catholic church has made no changes in its true doctrines on justification. since we actually read ALL of the bible and not parse it to fit OUR beliefs, we know that salvation comes through faith which is made full by our works.

How can you argue with me and call Martin Luther a heretic when you don't even know what we believe, teach or confess???!!!!

the funny thing is that the same might be said of you, seeing as you posted this filth: the Catholic Church issued a new proclamation of indulgences and this The pope believes in EVOLUTION!! and again, this Why in the catholic church do the "priests" stand between the people and God?

how can you suppose to judge us when you have no clue what we believe?

You should all be ashamed of yourselves and beg for God's mercy. It is a sin against the 8th commandment!

the eighth commandment is to not bear false testimony against our neighbor... how does that translate into "thou shalt not expose the fallacies presented against truth by heretics..." again, stop parsing the bible to suit your needs and start looking for the needs of God.

I am continually amazed at how little Catholics know of Scripture

i am continually amazed at how little protestants know of catholics. this might surprise you, but eugene, psyche, john g, and myself all know more scripture than you. we just dont rely on it as the sole source of truth... because we beleive that God can still affect things in this world, instead of how you believe your 'god' is impotent and cannot continue the spreading of doctrinal truth.

The pope believes in EVOLUTION!! How is that possible? Is God a LIAR???? The Bible is a LIE!!!???

first, the pope does not believe in evolution, you created this fancy for yourself. what the pope has stated is that the doctrine of evolution is possible within the doctrines of the church.

how is it possible? well, there is more proof for evolution than for the fact that the earth goes around the sun... most scientists agree with the theory of evolution. so this leaves three options: evolution is true, and since it is there can be no God (consequence of your view). OR evolution is false, hence scientific discovery is flawed, we must doubt everything ever discovered about the world (also consequence of your view) OR both theories can be combined in an affective way, allowing us to believe that both God and science can be right (science is the basis by which we see God's interaction with the world).

now, how can we accept evolution over a period of six days? well, first of, study hebrew. the word for day is very ambiguous, it also means year, decade, century, eon, and age. since astronomy clocks the universe as being 13.5 billion years old, im putting my vote that the earth was created over six ages. thus we have debunked the "six day only" fallacy. next, why do YOU place limitations on God? if God wanted to create something THROUGH evolution, is there any reason he couldnt? NO!!! this is a limitation YOU put on GOD!!! it is blasphemy at best.

St. Peter was NOT holy and neither is the pope and neither are u

youre right on almost all counts. im not holy at all, nor is the john paul II, nor was peter. the pope, however, is holy. how, you ask, can i say that jpII is not holy, but that the pope is? well, quite simple, the man is a sinner, who holds a HOLY OFFICE. namely, while the pope is excercising the doctrinal interpretation explicit to his office, he is influenced by the Holy Spirit, and hence by virtue of excercising his office he is holy.

What makes us Lutheran is that we accept the Lutheran Confessions or the Book of Concord of 1580 as a true and faithful expression of the doctrine of Scripture

no, child, what makes you lutheran is that you throw out seven books of the bible and replace them with some 1500's writings of some heretic.

Why in the catholic church do the "priests" stand between the people and God? This is a heresy too!

no priest stands between me and God, just as no lutheran minister stands between you and God. i follow the commandments of Christ and confess my sins, go to mass and recieve communion, etc etc etc. following Christs word is not putting anything between me and God, it is putting me on God's path.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 27, 2003.

Jmj

Jeanie, in all my many conversations with non-Catholic Christians, all but one person has denied that he and his "church" possesses infallibility (divine protection against teaching religious error). The one who seemed to claim that his "church" teaches infallibly was a Missouri Synod Lutheran. If I'm not mistaken, you are from another so-called conservative, "confessional" Lutheran denomination -- the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS). So I would ask you these key questions:
1. In religious matters, do you believe everything and only those things that the WELS teaches?
2. Do you believe that the WELS leaders can teach infallibly?
3. Do you believe that the 16th-century documents you mentioned are teaching you infallibly?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 27, 2003.

My post below was written in response to Jeanie's extremely lengthy "document" about the pope being the "anti-christ". I guess I'm a slow writer, because when I submitted it, her thread had already been deleted. So, I thought I would insert it here, as it seems somewhat on topic. Please forgive if I'm out of order. Thanks.

Jeanie, do you ever wonder about this man, Luther, in whose teachings you place such blind obedience? Do you ever even consider that he was extremely arrogant to appoint himself as the "reformer" of Christianity?

Luther is not mentioned in the Bible. How can you place your confidence in this man, rather than in the 16 centuries of Christianity which preceded him; in the Fathers of the Church who wrote in the years immediately following the death and resurrection of Our Lord; in the Scriptures which were compiled by the Catholic Church during a Council in the 4th century?

It's frightening that you have such absolute faith in this self- appointed man. He is only that. Yet, you model your own belief system after his. Why?

As Catholics, we do not put our faith in any one man -- no, not even the pope. You see, we have had over 200 popes. It is the office of the Papacy which we revere, because that is what Jesus Himself established when He called Simon forth to become Peter, the Rock.

I have been reading your exhaustive postings about the Catholic Church, and you would do well to consult Catholic sources for your information about our beliefs, for currently, you are hopelessly confused. It is understandable that you are so deluded, for our ancient Catholic Faith is so rich and deep and transcendently beautiful that it cannot be grasped by one whose heart is closed to the truth.

I don't understand your presence here in a Catholic forum, and your constant, almost frantic postings.

I wish you could clearly see how sad it is that you have invested your way of worshiping and relating to God in the teachings of the self-annointed Martin Luther who left Christianity in shambles, and brought disunity to the people of God, a disunity which multiplies each day with more and more denominations founded by clones of Luther, all self-appointed and all so sure that they know "the way".

"come to my church where we approve of divorce and contraception and ordain women..........."

"mine is better. we even ordain homosexuals, and no one needs to be baptized......"

"in my church, once you are saved; you are always saved. No need to strive for holiness, just have faith......"

and so it goes on endlessly.......so many ways, and so many "infallible" founders with the audacity to exclaim that "the Holy Spirit told me...."

There is only one WAY, and His Name is Jesus Christ and His Church began with Him, and it is the Holy Catholic Church -- a simple fact that can be found by reading any objective history of Christianity -- if Scripture isn't clear enough for you.

Do you really think that Jesus would leave us behind to flounder, wondering who had the truth? Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII??

In Catholicism, we look to no man, but only to Jesus Christ as our Founder. In His great humility, even He, the Son of God, was not self-annointed, but rather sent by His Father.

Think about it. Luther rebelled. Luther thought he knew better. Luther raised up himself to do a work of his own choosing. Is that Christlike?

Our Lord told us to look at the fruit, and the fruit of Luther is division and fragmentation, and confusion and disunity and even hatred among Christians of endless denominations.

Think about it, Jeanie. Pray about it.

Patricia

-- Patricia (MTherese2@aol.com), December 02, 2003.

I was a Roman Catholic for the first 42 years of my life. There are many good things about the Catholic Church. There are also some things that the Catholic Church has gotten wrong over the centuries. Why else would popes and councils contradict one another and keep piling doctrine upon doctrine ? If you want a good honest definition of heresy it is this , Jesus + anything. The reason I am now a Lutheran (and believe you me the Lutheran Church doesn't always get it right either!)is that I have learned from a great Pastor about Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ alone and the work He did on the cross and His faithfulness to the Father that will be reckoned to me as my righteousness. Not anything at all that I do, or that I didn't do. That is what Luther discovered after 15 years in the monastery, out-monking the monks. By God's grace, Luther discovered God's grace for himself and for all others that trust solely in God's mercy. May the Peace of our Lord and Savior be with you all! - Steve M.

-- Steve Martin (sma9231961@aol.com), December 02, 2003.

Hey Steve! Nice to meet you! You said ,"and believe you me the Lutheran Church doesn't always get it right either!" Can I ask what synod you belong to? I am a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran. Feel free to email me please I'd like to understand what you mean. God bless!

Grace & peace+

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.

"There are also some things that the Catholic Church has gotten wrong over the centuries."

A: That's not scriptural, Steve. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to "ALL TRUTH". (John 16:13) Are you calling Him a liar? If His Church doesn't possess the fullness of truth, then no man on earth has any way of knowing what is the truth and what is not.

"Why else would popes and councils contradict one another and keep piling doctrine upon doctrine?"

A: You are misinformed. No Pope or Council has ever contradicted any doctrinal statement by another Pope or Council, and no Pope or Council has ever introduced a new doctrine.

"If you want a good honest definition of heresy it is this , Jesus + anything."

A: If you want a good honest definition of heresy, it is this: thousands of manmade sects teaching conflicting and contradictory doctrines, while each claims to be teaching the truth, straight from the Bible. Never mind the total chaos of Protestantism as a whole - you can find such doctrinal contradictions even among the various synods of Lutheranism! Truth cannot contradict truth.

"The reason I am now a Lutheran (and believe you me the Lutheran Church doesn't always get it right either!)is that I have learned from a great Pastor about Jesus Christ."

A: And what gives your pastor any more authority than the AOG pastor up the street or the Presbyterian pastor around the corner? Give me one reason why he is more likely to know the truth than these others? My pastor received his authority when Jesus Christ said "I give unto you the keys to my kingdom; whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven".

"It is Jesus Christ alone and the work He did on the cross and His faithfulness to the Father that will be reckoned to me as my righteousness. Not anything at all that I do, or that I didn't do."

A: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". (James 2:24) - the Holy Word of God!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 02, 2003.

Jeanie, if you are still here (not yet banned), why haven't you answered my questions from five days ago? Scroll up to my post of November 27.

Steve, you wrote: "The reason I am now a Lutheran (and believe you me the Lutheran Church doesn't always get it right either!) is that I have learned from a great Pastor about Jesus Christ."

You can't refer to "the Lutheran Church," because there is no such thing. There are several separate Lutheran entities in the U.S. alone. For the sake of argument, I'll assume that you are in the largest one, the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). If so, how could you and your "great Pastor" be so foolish as to want to belong to a manmade denomination that tolerates its women having abortions and has over 1,500 female "pastors"?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.

PS: Combining the last two items ... I have read that the ELCA's employee health insurance pays for the lady "pastors" to have their unborn babies murdered.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 02, 2003.

Dear John,

Manmade denominations? All Christian denominations(including Catholicism) are run by men and or women, what's your point ? Support abortion ? My Pastor does not. I do not. I know of some Lutherans (no need to get technical about different synods at this point)that do - I know of some Catholics that do.Many liberal Roman Catholics priests, Cardinals and Bishops support liberal politicians that defend a "woman's right to choose" and even partial birth abortion.Are we saved by our ability to keep the law ? Again - what is your point? Is it that you belong to the TRUE CHURCH and that I do not? This may be news to you John ,but there are only two churches - the one that sits in the pews on Sunday - and the one that Christ knows. I'm sure there are people from both camps in both your church and mine.We can't know who the called are and it's none of our business. Jesus himself said don't judge ,lest you be judged.At the small Lutheran church I attend we don't make it a habit of playing God and discerning the hearts of men.That is just one of many things I have learned from my great Pastor. Hopefully there are those out there that are also willing to learn that same great lesson of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Christ. In His Grip - Steve Martin

-- Steve Martin (sma9231961@aol.com), December 02, 2003.

Dear Steve,

All churches are made up of people, yes, and people hold positions of leadership in all churches. However, one Church, and one Church only, was founded by Almighty God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, Who provided its doctrinal beliefs, personally ordained its first human leaders, and guaranteed the truth of its teaching by the power of the Holy Spirit. No other church can legitimately make ANY of these claims. Every other church (except the Orthodox) traces its origin to a human founder within the past few hundred years. Such churches therefore are most certainly manmade, not founded by God and not authorized by God, but founded in direct violation of God's stated will for His Church - "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:21)

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. The Catholic Church has existed for 2,000 years. The first denomination came into existence about 450 years ago. A denomination, by definition, is a group which broke away from a pre-existing group, rejecting the identity (the name) of the original group (de nomina - Latin - "out of the name" or "away from the name"). Of all Christian churches that exist, the Holy Catholic Church alone is not a denomination. It is the original, the one and only Church founded by Jesus Christ for all mankind.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 02, 2003.

Steve:
You make a daring statement; one which I seriously doubt you can prove.

''Many liberal Roman Catholics priests, Cardinals and Bishops support liberal politicians that defend a woman's ''right to choose,'' and even partial birth abortion.''

This is no description of any priest or bishop I know. If anyone like this exists, please tell us his name. He is a delinquent priest.

There have indeed been any number of bad priests throughout the history of Catholicism. Judas was the first. Don't presume to call the good ones responsible for the evil ones' sins. We figure you are an adult capable of making the proper judgment. Unless you're just here to create discord among us?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 03, 2003.

Dear Paul and Eugene,

Paul first- the Church I spoke of ( the one where Christ knows His chosen) is the Church He established - the true Church.The second that "man" got involved he started to twist and distort the entire enterprise.Why in Heavens name do you think that God sent the Apostle Paul(after the original 12)to get christianity back on track. Do you deny that Paul had it out with Peter over core doctrine and that Paul won ? If it had been left to the first pope to decide things we'd (Christians that is)all be running around with Yarmulkes on ! Even so, the Mainline churches are still religious institutions that feel they have to nail everything to the floor and ossify everything. Much of what goes on today in both Catholic churches and Lutheran churches as well as every other Christian church or sect, amounts to nothing more than playing church. God doesn't give a 'rat's you know what' for religion.He effectively says so in several places in Scripture. What He is after is faith ! Trust! That's it! Luther, a good Augustinian Monk re-discovered this in Augustine rooted in Paul.The difference between Catholics and Protestants can be stated like this:In Protestism the relationship of the individual to the church is dependent on one's relationship to Christ. In Catholicism it is the opposite; one's relationship to Christ is dependent on one's relationship to the Church. Eugene, how bout Cardinal Roger Mahoney for one? And there are scores of other Catholic priests that support liberal politicians.Since when the Roman Catholic Church in America become Republicanized? In England the Catholic seminarys are virtually a "gay men's club". Please, with forty two years in the Catholic church and five in the Lutheran church(ELCA), I don't need to hear about the vices and virtues of clergy. They are as we are- tainted by sin and in need of a savior.If you go back a few e-mails you'll see I didn't bring this topic up.Making comparisons of clergy based upon their ability to keep the law is a useless waste of time, unless one is delusional about these folks and thinks they recieve some sort of special 'blue gas' or something in their ordinations.One just need open their eyes for this one. Bottomline - I'm a Lutheran not because the Lutheran Church is great -it's not - I'm a Lutheran because of the greater understanding of the Gospel and what it is by a few of it's (The Lutheran church) Pastors. Grace alone, the Word alone, Faith alone. It's simple, but so liberating ! Galations 5:1 " For freedom Christ has set us free." Thanks be to God ! - Steve M.

-- Steve Martin (sma9231961@aol.com), December 03, 2003.

"Paul first- the Church I spoke of ( the one where Christ knows His chosen) is the Church He established - the true Church.The second that "man" got involved he started to twist and distort the entire enterprise."

A: Man was involved from the moment Christ took the first step in establishing His Church, by calling the first Apostle. The Church was created for man; therefore man's involvement was necessary from the very beginning. It's true that men make mistakes - which is why Jesus left the Holy Spirit, not men, in charge of assuring the accuracy of the Church's teaching.

"Why in Heavens name do you think that God sent the Apostle Paul (after the original 12) to get christianity back on track."

A: He didn't. Christyianity was not "off track". The Church sent Paul to bring the Christian message to distant lands - the same message that the Apostles had been teaching from the day of Pentecost until the sending of Paul. The message that Paul had learned from the Apostles. However, Paul did not set out on his assigned mission until he had first secured instructions and the blessing of Peter.

"Do you deny that Paul had it out with Peter over core doctrine and that Paul won?"

A: Yes, I do deny it. The disagreement between Peter and Paul had nothing to do with "core doctrine". It was an administrative decision involving who they should preach to next. Nothing more.

"Much of what goes on today in both Catholic churches and Lutheran churches as well as every other Christian church or sect, amounts to nothing more than playing church. God doesn't give a 'rat's you know what' for religion.He effectively says so in several places in Scripture. What He is after is faith !"

A: Religion is the life of the Church. Faith cannot develop in the absence of religion. Faith is interior. Religion is the outward manifestation, the actual living, of what is within. The Bible does not condemn religion. It condemns religiosity - the false notion that the performing of religious acts, in and of itself, will save a person. This was the religion of the Pharisees. This was the religion that James wrote of ... "If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless." (James 1:26) However, in the very next verse he writes ... "Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." (James 1:27)

"The difference between Catholics and Protestants can be stated like this:In Protestism the relationship of the individual to the church is dependent on one's relationship to Christ. In Catholicism it is the opposite; one's relationship to Christ is dependent on one's relationship to the Church."

A: Or, to state it another way, in Protestantism the relationship to Christ is based on self. In Catholicism the relationship to Christ is based on the Body of Christ which He personally founded in order that all men might find the fullness of truth - something that can never be found through a self-centered approach to faith, as the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism clearly demonstrates.

"I'm a Lutheran because of the greater understanding of the Gospel and what it is by a few of it's (The Lutheran church) Pastors."

A: To which of these pastors did Jesus say "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven"? Or, "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth"? To which of them did He say "he who hears you hears Me"? Can you offer me one reason why the "understanding of the Gospel" preached by these few pastors is any more authoritative, or any more likely to be accurate, than the "understanding of the Gospel" that is preached by any pastor in any Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian or Pentecostal Church in the world? The fact that it "sounds good" to you is hardly evidence of its validity. It just means that this particular pastor's guesses concerning the meaning of scripture are close to your own guesses. But nobody really knows what is true and what isn't.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 03, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, Steve.

I associate myself with the corrections that Paul M and Eugene have made to some of your errors. I would like to add some corrections of things what you wrote:

1. "John, ... Support abortion? ... I know of some Lutherans (no need to get technical about different synods at this point) that do."

To speak about "synods" is not "technical." You missed the point that there are a variety of Christian communities calling themselves "Lutheran" -- yet none of them buys exactly what Luther himself believed, and none of them believes the same thing that any of the others believe. You yourself, as an ELCA "Lutheran," would have a "battle royale" with the LCMS (Missouri Synod "Lutheran") guy who used to come here. And each of you would probably fight like the dickens with Jeanie, the WELS (Wisconsin Synod "Lutheran") who has been here lately. You are all evidence of the splintering of protestantism, the only way that manmade denominations can go (other than total dissolution).

2. "I know of some Catholics that do [support abortion]. Many liberal Roman Catholics priests, Cardinals and Bishops support liberal politicians that defend a 'woman's right to choose' and even partial birth abortion."

Those "Catholics" you mention are "Catholic in Name Only." Anyone can pretend to be Catholic. You are either ignorant or a liar to say that there are "many liberal ... Cardinals and Bishops" supporting pro-death politicians. (You could mention only one possible renegade [Mahoney].) But no matter how many less-than-faithful priests you may name, your point is irrelevant. Why? Because MY criticism (in the earlier post) was that your denomination itself supports a tolerance of pro-abortion attitude and actions by its members -- while the doctrine of the Church that Jesus founded (my Catholic Church) totally condemns ALL pro-abort attitudes and actions. The point is that you must be a fool to want to belong to a denomination or church that could make such a horrendous error, exhibiting the worst imaginable kind of fallibility.

3. "Do you deny that Paul had it out with Peter over core doctrine and that Paul won?"

Well, of course I deny it. You must not know how to read. Take another look at Galatians. You'll see that what happened was that St. Peter acted hypocritically -- more or less to show politically correct behavior -- contrary to what everyone knew that he really believed. St. Paul just gave some appropriate fraternal correction to St. Peter's behavior. The first pope showed weakness in his behavior, but did not teach any "core doctrine" in error! How silly of you, Steve!

4. "God doesn't give a 'rat's you know what' for religion."

That's a laugh! You don't fool anyone, Steve. It is YOU who don't give a rat's rectum for religion, because you want to be doubt certain doctrines and to be free to sin in various big ways! God wants true "religion" -- Catholic Christianity -- which is why his Son founded my Church.

5. "... with forty two years in the Catholic church and five in the Lutheran church (ELCA), I don't need to hear about the vices and virtues of clergy."

Wow! You are in deep danger of spending eternity in hell. You formerly acknowledged, for at least some of 42 years, that Jesus founded the Catholic Church as his necessary instrument of salvation. Having been in that position, you now have a lifelong obligation to remain within the Catholic Church -- or else you cannot be saved. Didn't you know that, Steve?

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 03, 2003.

Here's a question for Steve:

About your charges: Eugene, how about Cardinal Roger Mahoney for one? And there are scores of other Catholic priests that support liberal politicians. --Since when the Roman Catholic Church in America become Republicanized?''

May I ask just WHAT Cardinal Mahoney has said or done to incite you to vilify him? Is he too liberal? Is being ''Republicanized'' better for a Cardinal? --While I'm asking: About the ''scores'' of other cases; how about being clear & specific about their offenses? Wouldn't ''scores'' of NAMES be preferred to making blanket statements about the Catholic clergy? I think you're just prejudiced; there's no basis in fact for some of your insolent accusations. Or for saying God didn't give a ______________ for religions. That's brutish and blasphemous /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 03, 2003.

Dear Eugene,

Cardinal Mahoney has supported liberal politicians for years. I have a very good friend (Catholic) who is very active in anti- abortion politics. He is very disgusted with Mahoney and many other Catholic clergy. It's almost beyond belief that you don't realize to what a great extent much of the Catholic clergy supports liberal politicians.

God hates religion inasmuch as religion is a means to climb the ladder to him. Religion being what we do(as opposed to work of salvation that Christ has done on the cross ).I had a feeling you wouldn't understand. My fault for not making myself more clear earlier, but I was late for work. John,

So let me see if I have this straight- we are saved by our allegiance to the pope and the Catholic church ? Where exactly does Christ fit in then? Are we worshiping God , or the church ? Don't forget - "Judge not lest ye be judged" ! I don't know people always want to forget that one. Maybe Christ was kidding - could that be it ? When you judge others salvation it's possible you could be securing for yourself a deeper cell in hell ! But that's not my call - it's the call of the One I just quoted a few lines back.

You know I'm not at all upset with you guys and gals. It's not your fault you don't understand this stuff - the stuff you're spewing is all you've ever been taught - I kmow I was there myself! If God could get the Gospel through to me there is hope for everybody !!

Your Brother in Christ -

Steve M.

-- Steve Martin (sma9231961@aol.com), December 04, 2003.

'' It's not your fault you don't understand this stuff - '' Oh; how generous of you, Steve. You understand better than a Catholic, then?

''God hates religion inasmuch as religion is a means to climb the ladder to him.'' Is this a revelation you received personally? Are you a prophet?

Was Christ opposed to the worship of His Almighty Father in the Temple? I thought He called that Temple ''My Father's house''-- I thought Jesus taught in the synagogues of Jerusalem. I thought He set aside a room and the time, to celebrate the Passover feast? Isn't that religion?

Was Jesus circumcised? Why? It was just a religious formality; --Did Jesus pray to God? Isn't that religion? Did He and His family keep the Sabbath day? That's a prescribed religious practice for the Israelites. --Why did Jesus command His apostles to convert the nations, baptising everyone in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost? Because He hated religion? Baptism is the great religious sacrament.

As for a Cardinal somewhere giving offense to your close friend (a dubious distinction) because he ''supported'' liberal politicians-- Who is your ''friend''--? ? Spokesman for the GOOD Christians and somebody untouchable? Never sinned? Above reproach?

Did you ever stop to think that a politician isn't necessarily going to corrupt a Cardinal because the Cardinal doesn't hit him with a baseball bat? Ever occur to you that Cardinal (Mahoney or some other Cardinal) may be voicing his opposition to the liberal politician where your great friend didn't overhear because he wasn't invited? ? ? ?

But he's invited to condemn, isn't he? He gets to cast the first stone, and you cast a lot of them too. How do bigots like you ''climb the ladder'' up to God? By letting the Cardinals have it? By hating religion?

You don't UNDERSTAND this stuff! --Get this understood Steve: your so-called understanding makes God sick! You are the enemy of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ and His apostles. You tear down what Jesus built up. The Gospel is Good News. But you bring bad news to where ever you mouth off. The devil inspires your ''understanding''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 04, 2003.

the markings of the true church is that the sacraments are rightly administered and that the Word is taught in truth and purity.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

Terrribly interesting that you say those words, Jeanie, because they show the Catholic Church to be the only "true church."

Meanwhile, in WELS ...
(1) the only sacraments that can be "rightly administered" are Baptism and Marriage (and then only if both people are free to marry).
(2) and "the Word is taught in" untruth and impurity. [That is proved by your pushing the "pope is antichrist" rubbish on this Catholic forum.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

Steve,
You wrote: "So let me see if I have this straight- we are saved by our allegiance to the pope and the Catholic church? Where exactly does Christ fit in then? Are we worshiping God, or the church?"

Don't twist my words and avoid thinking about what I really said. Jesus taught -- and it has been handed down to us through the Apostles and their successors, the Catholic bishops -- that if one has the privilege of becoming a Catholic, one must hold on to the faith with love and zeal in order to be saved. Going elsewhere is tossing the "pearl of great price" on the junk heap.

You know perfectly well that we do not "worship the Church." And this has nothing to do with "allegiance to the pope." It has to do with respecting and clinging to the fullness of the truth and the sacraments -- which is part of the way in which we show our love for, and adoration of, Jesus. But you have abandoned the truth and sacraments -- and potentially your chance for heaven. The door is always open for you to come back. You apparently need a little while to realize what a terrible mistake you've made. Just try not to die in the meantime. [PS: It's Catholic "Church" with a capital "C."]

You wrote:
"Don't forget - 'Judge not lest ye be judged!' ... When you judge others salvation it's possible you could be securing for yourself a deeper cell in hell!"

Go back up and try reading my words again. I didn't "judge" you. I am always very careful to use language that allows for the possibility that a person who is seemingly headed for hell can escape it. Only God can judge you, but that doesn't stop me from making observations about the apparent objective situation in which you have placed yourself. You must be aware of the Second Vatican Council. It tells us about the dangerous position of the souls of people like you who have abandoned the faith. I simply passed along to you what the Council taught.

May God help you.
John PS: You still haven't backed up to your earlier post to notice how horrendously you exagerrated, saying that there are many cardinals and bishops who support politicians that approve of Partial Birth Infanticide. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

LOL another one Bites the dust! Oh well! :)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

I just want a list of the good works I need to perform so I can know that I desrerve the grace of Christ! By the way, who's in charge of checking that list to make sure I'm up to snuff? Better yet, couldn't I just make out a check or something to ensure that I will be included in the Kingdom of God? Jesus giving himself for the forgiveness of my sins is nice and all, but don't I have to help Heaven out with saving myself?

-- Brent Gordon (brent.gordon@disney.com), December 04, 2003.

Yes, I'd like to know who to make that check payable to. Because everybody knows Jesus died on the cross for us to do what we can to attain salvation. God did not saccrafice his son to forgive sin of man and we are not saved by grace we need to do our part.

-- MATT KARI (karim@totalshow.com), December 04, 2003.

Well, Brent:
If works alone might save you --you'd better get to work. You need saving. I can't do it for you; and wouldn't if I could.

As for grace; let me state now that you'll never come upon it in your ''meeting house.'' Nor will you get grace from reading a Bible even standing on your head. Grace comes from the Holy Spirit who was sent to the Curch. You quit the true Church. Making you unable to even react to grace while you live in error and presumption.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 04, 2003.

"Yes, I'd like to know who to make that check payable to. Because everybody knows Jesus died on the cross for us to do what we can to attain salvation. God did not saccrafice his son to forgive sin of man and we are not saved by grace we need to do our part."

This is very sad! How blessed am I to have a loving God who made me righteous before his throne through the blood of his Son so that I, a sinner who is incapable of saving myself, might live with him in his Kingdom for all eternity.

THE SECOND ARTICLE (Redemption)

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

What does this mean? I believe that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten of the Father from eternity, and also true man, born of the virgin Mary, is my Lord. He has redeemed me, a lost and condemned creature, purchased and won me from all sins, from death and from the power of the devil, not with gold or silver, but with his holy, precious blood and with his innocent suffering and death. All this he did that I should be his own, and live under him in his kingdom, and serve him in everlasting righteousness, innocence and blessedness, just as he has risen from death and lives and rules eternally. This is most certainly true.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

Jeanie,

I beg you: give it up. Just as nothing the Catholics say will sway you from your closed-minded views, nothing you say will sway them from their closed-minded views. If you believe God shall judge based on belief systems, then pray for every soul on Earth. We are all wrong. We are all damned.

-- J Biscuits (thefilthohgodthefilth@yahoo.com), December 04, 2003.

How come the only arguments anyone can ever come up with here are personal attacks? Is that like the old addage, "If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger"? Very interesting indeed! :)

I know that you will not hear what I have to say and I know why. In Paul's prophesy of THE Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians 2, he clearly says that God is punishing you with disbelief. Too bad really. He must really love me:)

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan...10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

and God said "i say to you, whoever, disbelieves in the word of Jeanie, does not hold any merit in my eyes and is bound for hell!!!" (jeanie 3:16)

heh heh heh, jeanie, maybe the reason we dont listen to you is because you arent right... or maybe its because you dont listen to us when we write to you, making response a total waste of time.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 04, 2003.

Now she says: ''Is that like the old addage, "If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger"? Very interesting indeed!''

Your message is: God has spoken ONLY through the Bible; all we need for salvation is in the Bible, I have the Bible, I'm saved after reading the Bible.''

This is false faith. Salvation isn't acheived by assuming falsely we know all there is to know by reading it. Not even Catholics read the Bible as the sole rule of their faith. Christ commanded all teachings given by HIM to His apostles be observed (Matt 28 :20)

We've definitely attacked the message, and not the ''messenger''. She makes no effort to see; and in consequence her personality enters into the picture. She is then treated rightly as an antagonist. Jeannie is to blame for the attacks on the ''messenger''.

Accordingly, Jeannie herself must think over that passage: ''For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth,'' --To consider if doesn't apply strictly to those who reject the Holy Catholic Church, precisely as Paul meant it to. It fits her like a glove.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 04, 2003.

lol MATT! That was a joke? Was pretty convincing. lol

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 04, 2003.

Why does he attack the messengers instead of the message? We are the sheepfold of Jesus Christ. He appointed Peter to feed His lambs; and the successors to Pete do so. They're our Popes. You, OTOH, have no pastors. You are sheep gone into a wilderness.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 04, 2003.

John, Chapter 21. Peter is given the care (as our first Pope) of Jesus Christ's flock. He was the one Christ personally picked out of the eleven. First Jesus asked him three times, Do you love me?

In Peter's answers his three-fold denial of Jesus on the night he was betrayed became a thing of the past; Jesus forgave him. Who is your shepherd in the world, now that you've rejected Peter?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 04, 2003.

Dear Matt K,

I'm wondering about: ''And Eugene keep making your list of "THINGS TO DO FOR SALVATION" I pray you and all the other Catholics get them all checked off before you die.''

Isn't that noble? He prays. But why? When a Catholic says simply, ''We pray for you; then we ask the Blessed Virgin for her prayers for you;'' --You people are scandalized. What list of things must I do to be saved, Matt?

I maintain we must follow Jesus Christ faithfully to be saved. If we are UN faithful to Jesus Christ, we must repent, and then we can hope to be saved. By saying this, I'm following the precepts given me by Christ and His apostles in the Holy Gospel.

MATT, --Is following them on the list? A long list of things we learned from the Holy Gospel? Or are they mere loose ends which Jesus ties up for me later, and I'm scot-free? Let me know before I die. You may be on to something.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 04, 2003.

"Jeanie you keep making the scripture say whatever it is you need it to say. soon you'll learn scripture is NOTHING for every point you find I can find 10 that contradict it and then vise-versa."

A: And there you have Protestantism in an nutshell. How sad.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 06, 2003.