angel [Several questions on angels, including, What language might angels speak?]greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Can an angel be crucified on Good Friday and resurrect the following Sunday?
Are angels stars?
How many in our galaxy??
how many in the universe??
has anyone been visited by a star?
do the angels speak to people? in what language?
the star that led the Magi was it an angel?
I have many other questions about angels. may be sometime in the near future i'll ask them
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999Answers
Response to angel
why do you think that anyone on this service would have the answer to this - except maybe for brother Rich who probably knows all of this stuff since he is a third order franciscan and closer to god than all of you.... I would say that since these are all astral beings and questions related to them, posing these questions to other people are likely to only yield contradictory and false responses - if you really believe in angels, ask one of them.
-- Russ (r-haynes@students.uiuc.edu), March 10, 1999.Response to angel
I see, my friend Russ, that you are open to the posibility of angels and "astral beings." But earlier you called various religious views "mythologies." If so, how can you think there are angels? Wouldn't that be "mythology," perhaps? Perhaps you could elaborate, and I warmly invite you to.
-- chris B -- March 10, 1999.Response to angel
The possiblity of the existence of astral beings or other PHYSICAL modes of existence is not a new idea and certainly not one that is new or original to christianty. I have myself experienced several encounters with beings or forces not of the same physical material as you or I. This does not in any way LABEL them as anything - I know not what they were so I merely call them "astral beings." To label them as something which puts them into a bunch of other categories not experienced by me would be to move beyond the bounds of experience and into the bounds of mythology. A present day occurence is one thing - to attach to the occurrence all sorts of modifiers and other garbage is to label them as "angels" or other Christian nonsense. I'm not sure if I'm being clear, but *I* know what I mean and it really doesn't matter if YOU don't - it's not your experience anyway.
-- Russ (r-haynes@students.uiuc.edu), March 11, 1999.Response to angel
On a different thread you recently wrote: ******Your understanding of the existence of the tree may deepen over time, but if the whole thing has to being [this was a typo for "begin"]with a debate regarding it's existence, it's pretty safe that IT DOESN'T EXIST!! *****But now you write: ******The possiblity of the existence of astral beings or other PHYSICAL modes of existence is not a new idea and certainly not one that is new or original to christianty. I have myself experienced several encounters with beings or forces not of the same physical material as you or I.******
But people debate the existence of these things you have experienced. By your own reasoning, doesn't that mean they can't possibly exist? I wonder if you could clear up the apparent contradiction.
-- chris B -- March 11, 1999.Response to angel
you know, that's a good point - I need to look into this. I'll get back to you - don't let me forget!
-- Russ (r-haynes@students.uiuc.edu), March 11, 1999.Response to angel
Enrique, in your original post you asked: "do the angels speak to people? in what language?" I thought that was a cool question. I have been talking to an angel lately. Yesterday she said, ljsfdklhsfhsadklfhsadljhfalkhflkjdsnvakjnkjsvnuoennsvc sjdfh;alkjshdfkjshdkjfhasdkjhfkjsahkjdh sdkburkypoiuwaiauf." I have been trying to translate this and so far I think it means, "The sauasage is blue when the moon has a red tomato," but I may not be translating it right. . . ;>) I like thinking of an angelic language. I bet it would sound beautiful. I think we will hear them sing one day. I like to think of an angel's poem, too. Maybe they have something in heaven way beyond rhyme and meter. And I wonder what an angel's syntax is like. And I wonder how angels choose their words -- like what goes on inside the angel's mind as he or she is trying to decide what to say. If they speak telepathically, their thoughts would still have to have some kind of form, which you and I can try to think about in terms of language, if only as a metaphor. And, if angels speak telepathically, can they have a metaphor that is pure thought, and not language? Maybe a single sentence from an angel is so beautiful that all of Shakespeare is like a boy writing in the sand.In Jesus' great love, Chris
-- chris B -- March 18, 1999.Response to angel
It is also interesting to think about how angels might be right next to us in this world. Take these words you are reading right now. Sure, they were received over your modem, through the internet, and they have appeared in your monitor. But what if an angel "replaced" them? That is, these words you are reading are not pixels on the screen anymore, but you are actually looking at an angel. . . I know how strange that sounds, but I really think angels are that close to us. I think many of the good, kind feelings we have in life, we'll remember when we get to heaven, and we'll meet with certain angels and say, "Oh, that was *you*!"In Jesus' spectacular love, who created spirits in the universe besides ourselves, for His own reasons that will one day become clear when we go to live with them in the eternal city that He has prepared for you and me, where there is a place at the table with your name on it and mine, Chris
-- chris B -- March 18, 1999.We think Cris B mispelled the angel's words. He wrote: " ljsfdklhsfhsadklfhsadljhfalkhflkjdsnvakjnkjsvnuoennsvc sjdfh;alkjshdfkjshdkjfhasdkjhfkjsahkjdh sdkburkypoiuwaiauf", which really makes no sense.Maybe what the angel said was: "paraanguaricutirimicuarode zumpangoyanexasesquinaconzitacuarof"
The meaning changes to: "The sauasage is slight turquoise when the moon has a PANTONE 234 CV tomato".
anyway the basic meaning remains intact, but in other cases it may vary considerably, and would lead us to undesirable misunderstandings.
-- Fam. Escamilla/Ortiz/Masso (abilene@df1.telmex.net.mx), April 11, 1999.As one who believes angels are messengers of God then perhaps their (language) is a running stream, a child's laughter, a flower in the sunlight, a dog barking, an old woman's eyes. ETC. ETC.Peace And Well Being.
Jean Bouchard
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 11, 1999.Can an angel be crucified on Good Friday and resurrect the following Sunday?If you are asking whether or not Jesus was an angel, the answer is no. Don't confuse the Creator with His creation. Angels are created beings. Jesus is the Creator.
Are angels stars? How many in our galaxy?? how many in the universe??
Angels are not stars.
do the angels speak to people? in what language?
Yes, in the language that the person understands. Angels are messengers of God. They couldn't exactly deliver a message unless the words they spoke are understood now could they? The Bible says that there languages of "men and angels". That opens the possibilitiy that there is a Heavenly language that angels use to communicate with each other.
-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 11, 1999.David,Respectfully,
If you are asking whether or not Jesus was an angel, the answer is no. Don't confuse the Creator with His creation. Angels are created beings. Jesus is the Creator.
Jesus is never been said to have created anything. Only "through" Him. Only Jehovah, The God, The Father "created."
Angels are not stars.
Stars are certainly angels. Please refer to Job 38:7, Rev 1:20.
As to Jesus being a Star we have to read for ourselves Numbers 24:17, Rev 22:16
As for Jesus being created - Proverbs 8:22, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14
MGP
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 15, 1999.Jamey, you probably have considered this already, so I won't attempt a lengthly discertation on interpreting Biblical imagery, but perhaps I can provide a few thoughts for your consideration.In regards to Jesus being the Creator, you correctly state that is it "through" Jesus that creation is made . . . so how is that different than being the Creator (or at least One with the Creator both in being and in action). If I work for a software development firm (which I do) and write a software program that my company sells to clients on the retail market, it could correctly be stated (depending on the perspective) that by my employer and I are the creators of the program. I am authorized, equipped and paid by my employer to write the program. Whatever I write, they own and can legally say that they are the creators of the software. But those with an intimate knowledge of my company and more specifically me, also know that it was by my hand that the program came into existence. In the same way, we can correctly state that our Creator is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (was it not the Spirit of God who hovered over the waters?).
As top angels being "stars", it is clearly imagery that the Bible is using. Are you saying that you believe every point of light we see in the night sky is actually an angel? Do you believe that stars are just spiritual? What about our Sun? Is it not a star? Is it also spiritual? I guess I'm confused. Without trying to sound insulting, your position seems more like superstition.
In regards to Jesus being a "star", again, we're looking at Biblical imagery. Is Jesus also a flower (Rose of Sharon)?, an animal (Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Lamb of God)?, a stone (Chief Cornerstone)?, a musical instrument (Horn of Salavation)? See what I mean? To be consistent, you need to apply your principle to every example I gave and it just doesn't work.
As to Jesus being created, it is important to understand the difference between something that God created out of nothing as He did with angels, the universe and mankind as opposed to the way Jesus was begotten or birthed from God Himself. They share the same nature because Jesus came forth from His Father.
I'm curious. I've never heard of such theories. Are these your own or are they part of an particular denomination or movement? They do not reflect foundational Christian doctrine. Are you part of a non-Christian group??
-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 15, 1999.Whoa, I re-read my last post and think I need to try again. Too many typo's make it confusing and I don't think some of my points came out right.personal note: stop posting so late at night when you're tired :-0
Jamey, you probably have considered this already, so I won't attempt a lengthly dissertation on interpreting Biblical imagery, but perhaps I can provide a few thoughts for your consideration.
With respect to Jesus being the Creator, you correctly state that is it "through" Jesus that creation is made . . . so how is that different than being the Creator? For example: If I work for a software development firm and write a software program that my company sells to clients on the retail market, it could correctly be stated (depending on the perspective) that either my employer or I am the creator of the program. I am authorized, equipped and paid by my employer to write the program. You could say that my work proceeds forth from my employer. Whatever I do as a function of my job, they own and can legally say that they are the creators of the software. But those with an intimate knowledge of my company and more specifically me, also know that it was by my hand that the program came into existence. They also know that I represent my company. If someone calls me on the phone and asks questions regarding the software program that I wrote, they correctly assume they are talking to my company as well as to me personally. In the same way, we can correctly state that our Creator is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All three are involved in Creation according to the Word (was it not the Spirit of God who hovered over the waters? etc) and both the Son and the Spirit proceed forth from the Father.
As to angels being "stars", such references in the Bible to angels being "mornings stars" or "the seven stars", surely you see that Biblical imagery is being used? Do you believe every point of light we see in the night sky is actually an angel? Do you believe that stars are just spiritual? What about our Sun? Is it not a star? Is it also spiritual? I guess I'm confused. It almost sounds like superstition.
In regards to Jesus being a "star", again, we're looking at Biblical imagery. Is Jesus also a flower (Rose of Sharon)?, an animal (Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Lamb of God)?, a stone (Chief Cornerstone)?, a musical instrument (Horn of Salavation)? See what I mean? To be consistent in your approach to scriptures, you need to apply your principle to every example I gave and it just doesn't work.
As to Jesus being created, it is important to understand the difference between something that God created out of nothing as He did with angels, the universe and mankind as opposed to the way Jesus was begotten or born from God Himself. They share the same nature because Jesus came forth from His Father.
I'm curious. To say that Jesus is created is to say that He is not God. Is this what you are implying? I am not familiar with your interpretations. Are they associated with a particular movement or denomination? Forgive me, but it does not sound like you hold to orthodox Christian doctrine. Is it closer to Mormon doctrine? It's been a few years since I read about Mormon theology, but I recall one of it's principle tenets is denial that Jesus is fully God, making it a non-Christian religion.
-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 16, 1999.Please excuse my confusing "stars." I am not saying that every star is an angel, only is cases such as pointed out in verses given. Clearly in Job "stars" must be some kind of beings - for "stars" of the sky do not sing.Just as the are different "heavens", there are different types of "stars."
As for my denomination I have none. I am not a Mormon, because after reading some of their "Bible" there were too many contradictions to itself.
I have studied many religions, however I consider myself a Christian in the sense of following what the Bible teaches.
I do not belong to any "religion" for much of the same reasons. Trinity, hell-fire and imortal souls are not taught in the Bible - without the overlays of men.
This is a very short response to the many issues you have posed. There are many I would like to discuss further as time permits.
Shalom,
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 16, 1999.
-- The Thread Restorer (Thread@Restoration.com), November 30, 2003
In the beginning, before anything was created there was just God.
Now, God is love.
If God is love, then to whom did he express all his love in eternity?
To himself? Love directed oneself can hardly be considered true divine love. It obviously has to be directed to some other person.
It is a big problem to tackle if God was a lone person.
But, since God is a Trinity, there is no problem here.
-- leslie john (leslie_jn@yahoo.com), December 01, 2003.
Now, God is love. If God is love, then to whom did he express all his love in eternity?you mistake in your logic. there is a big difference between being love and necessarily expressing love. now, does God express love for his followers? yes. does God have to in order to remain the substance of love? no.
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 01, 2003.
Some biblical scholars believe that the language that angels speak is called Enochian. Some others believe that Hebrew is the language of the spiritual realm.els
-- els (els011@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.
Since the spiritual realm is not affected by the limitations of the flesh, there would be no need of any "language" as we know it. Human languages are a means of transferring the thoughts of one mind into another mind by physical means - either sound waves produced by vocal cords of one person, then received by the eardrum and associated structures of another person, or physical marks on physical paper. This is how human beings, subject to the restrictions of the physical world, communicate. Similarly, it's a major undertaking for human beings to make a journey to somewhere as close as the moon. An angel who has need of being at a specific place in the universe doesn't have to "journey there". The angel simply wills to be there, and is there. In a similar way, if God wishes to convey a message to an angel, He simply wills that the angel know the message, and the angel knows it. He doesn't have to "summon the angel into His presence", or "speak" to the angel in any specific "language". Communication from one angel to another would occur in the same manner, and presumably communication among the saints in heaven as well.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 15, 2004.
It is a common Judaic belief that God created the universe through the Hebrew alphabet. Do your own research.
-- els (els011@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.
That seems unlikely since the Hebrew alphabet didn't predate the Hebrew people who devised it, and the Hebrew people didn't exist until several billion years after the creation of the universe.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 15, 2004.
Paul M., if angels do not speak in languages (or tongues), then what of this verse?1 Corinthians 13:1 (NAB) If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.
Emily,The whole chapter is about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and their place in the Church. Paul's reference to speaking in "tongues of angels" is certainly a reference to the gift of tongues which was prominent in the early Church, and which Paul describes in some detail in his writings. It has nothing to do with angels per se.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 15, 2004.
The time frame of creation has been debatable since the beginning of time. I do know that God's intelligence is beyond human reasoning or comprehension. Why shouldn't the angels speak? We are created in God's image and we speak many languages. All languages come from God. I do find it illogical that so many in the Jewish community (a community rich in God, tradition, and culture) would hold this common belief for so long. I agree with the scripture in which Emily posted. Thank you, Emily. It really doesn't matter which language or if the angels speak as long as we as mankind speak the language of love.Stay close to Christ, els
-- els (els011@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.
Thanks Marc for your email and I agree. I checked out and bookmarked that website, The Mission of Truth, http://www.themissionoftruth.org/ that you recommended. Thanks. Definitely food for thought!
-- els (els011@yahoo.com), August 08, 2004.