I challenge Mr. Chavez to find how many posts i have beat down and attacked the church on this forum. If so show me. From my understanding pointing out errors in of the church is not bashing the church. If no one of the faithful ever opened their mouth to point of where things o wrong the church would never go anywhere. I do not speak of infable things i speak of human changes such as moving the tabernacle to the side of the church, turning the altar around, receiving Our Lord in the hand, things of that nature. Of which was changed and the pope never went agenst just went along with them.

Iam waiting in my litte cubby hole 1000 miles away for your answer...

KeV

-- kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003

Answers

The fact that you don't personally care for some of the changes that have been made does not mean that such changes are therefore "errors of the Church". The fact that the overwhelming majority of Catholics are quite comfortable with the changes, and have found them an aid to meaningful worship, suggests that any perceived problems rest with you, not with the Church or the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 17, 2003.

Kevin,
I have no problem with your ''challenge''. I've been challenged often in our forum by a few with extremely good credentials, and survived to tell about it. Your self-assured little game is small potatoes. But so what? I'll let you get away with your constant displays of insolence. Not on account of your swiftness; on account of your green-ness. I was once green and cocky. I outgrew it. Now I hardly ever take any position within the forum which you might call my own. That would be cocky.

I show just what the Catholic Church teaches us. How I ''see'' the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You won't find me letting loose with any ''chavez wisdom,'' for you to mock and have fun with. It's the Church's wisdom and how you ought to understand it. Not only you, the young one. All of us. Including the so-called ''traditionalists'' around here. Some of whom are not very young at all.

I tell you I outgrew your insolent type of address to others who were qualified to teach me. I didn't expect any of them to know much more than I did; until I'd gone another 25 or so years. I acquired a lot by simple contemplation and prayer. I found out gradually that Jesus Christ really does talk to you over time. By leading you in good directions and exposing you to His many holy people. And sometimes just by showing you His immense love. This revelation was to take place over many years. It's not so easy to understand all the Church teaches when you're green. You merely mouth the same things your elders happen to be saying. I've been there and I've done that. But it wasn';t the Catholic Church teaching me.

You can't pass on that type of mouthing off as if the Church was where you learned it. After all these years I finally know very clearly most of what the church really teaches; and especially about controversial things. Such as the reforms and ''innovations'' we saw after the 2nd vatican Council. Many of which continue to alarm some Catholics. Unjustly, I might add. They love to run around alarmed.

In almost all cases with this type, my first words are, ''Trust the Holy Spirit in His Church''. Be truly faithful.

The Church has been active and productive for almost 2,000 years; and never had a smooth time about it. It's your opinion the Church is ''super flawed'', and all upside-down and just plain WRONG. About the placings of tabernacles, reception of the sacraments, and every other gloomy idea that enters your head.

You never saw how your ancestors coped, with hell let loose on earth. Catholics of the early Church were burned alive for the faith; as human torches to light up the emperor's courtyards during his feasts. You never went with missionaries where there was only hunger and thirst and horrible fear everywhere. You din't have to hide every day and only move at night, because they were hunting for you.

All those things were unhappy and depressing for Catholics of long ago. But the holy Spirit sustained them. He heard their desperate prayers. Even as they died for Christ, they never gave up their love for one another; and their holy faith.

You haven't seen a whole city block burning down your home. In Londonderry, where Catholics were hated and killed just for their loyalty to our Holy Father the Pope. Or during the Mexican revolution; when our priests were captured and mutilated & killed by atheistic, beastly enemies. Good Catholics, who pray and carry the cross every day.

No; Kevin hasn't seen real Catholic faith!

But you can squawk about the right place & the wrong place to set up the holy tabernacle, no matter what any BISHOP says! You think the Bishop is a LOSER! Why?

Just because you get a hair up your @ss and decide OH, NO! ''If no one of the faithful ever opened their mouth to point of where things o wrong the church would never go anywhere.'' What a joke! ''No one of the faithful ! ! !

You think setting yourself up against an ordained, annointed, holy Catholic bishop makes you ''one of the faithful?'' Why don't you jump in his face, Kevin and let him know what a doofus he is, and 66 years of knowing LESS about the Catholic faith than a pimply kid ? ? ? I'm sure he'll hand over his pectoral cross to you, and ask your pardon; ''I'm so sorry, Your Excellency Kevin Wisniewski-- what've I got to teach a boy genius? I'm only here because the Pope elevated me. And what does HE know ? ? ? ''

You can take your complaints about our ugly churches to HIM; your BISHOP. Just keep them out of here, Kev. We never asked your advice. We have faith in Jesus Christ's holy word; His promises to the Church, and the Holy Spirit He sent to be with her forever.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.

Every one still blames it on vatican two. That doesnt change a thing because vatican two dident change it, a few churchs changed nothing was said, then a few more then a few more. You make it sound as if we dont fallow the pope and the bishops, like we tell them what to do. What ever you think fine. Yeah iam 17 iam green ive never seen or lived my faith. AS if praying walking 8 pilgramages the Lord never talks to us, or directs us. You guys can have your little forum. As if millions of peopel that see no problem in dishonoring Our Lord means anything. Fallowing the crowd i think they call that? Ill leave all you "inlitened" people to your forum. Have a nice little fallow.

Merry Christmas,

KeV/the green one

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003.

I find myself resisting the urgue to stand up on my chair and cheer! You go, Eugene!

Well said my friend!

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), December 18, 2003.

I ditto that, Leon!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 21, 2003.